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What are some of the Rifts World Books that you could not really get into or use for your games?

I don't use England because I don't like the weird take on Arthur. Well, I do use millenium trees. Those are cool.

I hate Rifts Japan because Rifts Earth was more interesting with Japan being what was originally described: a small cluster of islands where nothing of note happens.
BUT I did use the material in Rifts Japan to update the Foot Clan for Rifts Earth, so I can't say I've never used it.

I dislike New West because it's way too cartoony, and it's overpowerd compared to other places, as if all the gun manufacturers were holding back their best toys for the most sparsely populated area. Also, I object to the idea that somebody out west is going to be THAT much better with a pistol than somebody in the East or anywhere else.
Oh, and they boosted the already overpowered dinosaurs from the first printing RMB up to be on par with dragons, without giving any reason WHY these non-supernatural, non-augmented animals would be so powerful.
Also, New West is kind of the epitome of where Rifts (IMO) went terribly wrong, scrapping original ideas that fit the post-apocalypse setting (vampires in Mexico, bug men up north, tentacle critters and monsters on Atlantis, Dinosaurs in Florida, etc.) in favor of the much, much cheesier "let's just take modern cliches of each area, and update them for Rifts. So... Mounties in Alaska, Cowboys & Indians out West, Knights in England, Ninjas & Samurai in Japan, MDC Kangaroos in Australia, MDC lobsters in Main, Magic cheese and wine in France, etc. etc. etc.
(Okay, I made the last two up.)

I dislike Spirit West for the same reasons why I dislike New West, PLUS there's a weird kind of racist Noble Savage take on Native Americans in it that rubs be the wrong way, the epitome of which is the Laser Bow... which I also hate for reasons of science and logic.
(If you want to know more, just Search for any number of rants I've made about the Laser Bow in the past.)

In defense of the RJ WB, they would be a small cluster of islands that nothing of note 'to the west' happens.
However, locally, what happened in Japan is of great concern to Japan.

I don't use anything that takes away from the core concept of Rifts or anything I would stay away from today; anything that has to do with the American West, the dinosaurs, vampires in general, and some of the stuff that is way to OP or could be swapped for Jar Jar Binks.

My games usually revolved around one of three things: human(oids) finding out the best way to survive, D-Bees (stranger in a strange land scenario), or mercs out to make a credit (those characters might die).

I usually bought most of the books even though I knew I wouldn't use them, just to support the game.

I agree that Rifts is at its best when it's novel and keeps any cultural/historical cliches with M.D.C. to a minimum. That said, I also think it's possible to work creatively with a lot of that content or build up other material and content that makes a region more interesting and compelling. My side project expanding Africa is such an attempt. My preference is to try to look forward and create a future history/culture that's different than what has come before for a given region.

I should also mention that there are ways in which it's quite possible to look forward and back simultaneously in ways that are novel and interesting. Rifts Madhaven is a great example of this, combining a natural extension of the setting (Mystic Knights of the White Rose) in a twisted and novel take on what we might expect. My only disappointment about that book is its lack of treasure and incentive for people to go there; it would have been nice to see some interesting rewards put into the book.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any world books that I wouldn't ever use *something* from. Even books that lean hard on cultural cliches usually have something that might be useful.

I suppose a bigger obstacle to using a given world book is the isolation of that setting. I think this matters more in practice than the cultural cliche issues. The China books, Australia, and Japan are good examples of this isolation. If there's not much in the way of trade or interaction with the rest of the world, then why would a GM and/or players ever go there? Super-isolated places need some kind of strong incentive to get players and GMs interested, or else they seem to become irrelevant to most of the fans. At least, that's been my observation.

All this said, the one Rifts book that just can't see myself using any part of is Mutants in Orbit. It doubles down on the isolation issues and adds in unworkable mechanics (I'd have to invent entire systems to make movement and/or space combat make any sense), a two-setting approach that feels like a poor fit for both Rifts and After the Bomb, and a lack of any compelling story, conflict, personalities, or adventures that I could see GMs or players get excited about. It's also a book that Phase World and the Three Galaxies series of books has utterly eclipsed for people who want to play Rifts in space. If there's one book in canon I would want to retcon and totally rewrite, Mutants in Orbit would be it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In defense of the RJ WB, they would be a small cluster of islands that nothing of note 'to the west' happens.
However, locally, what happened in Japan is of great concern to Japan.

I'm pretty sure that Pre-Rifts cities full of cyberninjas and tech samurai, and all that other stuff WOULD have been of note to the West.
If it was originally intended to be there at all, which it wasn't.

It doesn't matter so much today, but back in 1990, it was practically revolutionary to have a cyberpunkish setting where not only did Japan not utterly dominate, but it didn't even really exist anymore. Most every other sci-fi and especially cyberpunk setting had Japan being pretty much THE big power, at least in tech and such, and there were always samurai, tech ninjas, street samurai, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It was an interesting trope that swiftly became boring, then incredibly tedious.
So it was very nice that Rifts just ignored the question of Japanese vs American superiority with essentially "They didn't survive the apocalypse to speak of."
Even if they did succumb to the "Europe is so much cooler and more advanced than America is. Euro Juicers are cooler than our juicers. Their cyborgs are better than our cyborgs, etc. etc." schtick.
At least they didn't have the Coalition using Eurobucks!

Anyway, it was incredibly disappointing when Rifts Japan came out, and had all the standard tropes and stereotypes that had already been exhausted.

Hotrod wrote:I agree that Rifts is at its best when it's novel and keeps any cultural/historical cliches with M.D.C. to a minimum. That said, I also think it's possible to work creatively with a lot of that content or build up other material and content that makes a region more interesting and compelling. My side project expanding Africa is such an attempt. My preference is to try to look forward and create a future history/culture that's different than what has come before for a given region.

I should also mention that there are ways in which it's quite possible to look forward and back simultaneously in ways that are novel and interesting. Rifts Madhaven is a great example of this, combining a natural extension of the setting (Mystic Knights of the White Rose) in a twisted and novel take on what we might expect. My only disappointment about that book is its lack of treasure and incentive for people to go there; it would have been nice to see some interesting rewards put into the book.

Weren't there any?
I thought the writers specifically added treasure as an explanation for why anybody would go there, but I never really read that book thoroughly.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any world books that I wouldn't ever use *something* from. Even books that lean hard on cultural cliches usually have something that might be useful.

Agreed. There's always SOMETHING I could use, I think.

I suppose a bigger obstacle to using a given world book is the isolation of that setting. I think this matters more in practice than the cultural cliche issues. The China books, Australia, and Japan are good examples of this isolation. If there's not much in the way of trade or interaction with the rest of the world, then why would a GM and/or players ever go there? Super-isolated places need some kind of strong incentive to get players and GMs interested, or else they seem to become irrelevant to most of the fans. At least, that's been my observation.

AMEN!
When VK came out, that was awesome. Our characters could walk there. When Atlantis came out, that was cool; Atlanteans were discussed in the main book, and the continent could be reached by boat, and there was plenty of reason to go there in spite of the danger.
When NGR came out, cool. Our characters in North America weren't likely to go there, but since Triax sold stuff commonly in North America, apparently there was significant traffic between the two regions... even if it was never really described.
With England, I didn't see much use for characters in North America. No real reason to go there, and no real way to get there as far as I knew.
Africa was a big huh??? for me, because while the characters in theory would have to go there to save the world, again there was no real known way of getting there.
Meanwhile, there were tons of places in North America referred to in the RMB, but never described.
IMO, we should have gotten a book on Chi Town LONG before we went to Africa.
The fact we still don't have one is a thorn in my side that's been there so long it doesn't even hurt anymore; it's just sad.

And all of this is another reason I wasn't a fan of Rifts Japan, and why I never used Rifts Australia, or Rifts Russia, and so forth.
I'm not sure if we actually ever made it down to South America, in fact, but at least that one made more sense because you could walk there if you had to or wanted to, or take a cruise across the Gulf or something.

All this said, the one Rifts book that just can't see myself using any part of is Mutants in Orbit. It doubles down on the isolation issues and adds in unworkable mechanics (I'd have to invent entire systems to make movement and/or space combat make any sense), a two-setting approach that feels like a poor fit for both Rifts and After the Bomb, and a lack of any compelling story, conflict, personalities, or adventures that I could see GMs or players get excited about. It's also a book that Phase World and the Three Galaxies series of books has utterly eclipsed for people who want to play Rifts in space. If there's one book in canon I would want to retcon and totally rewrite, Mutants in Orbit would be it.

lol
That one I DID use!
There's an adventure seed in the back where a mage has a rift to Mars, and I used that for more than one adventure. Another time I had the party in a Cyberworks spacecraft, trying to reach orbit for the first time.
Then another time I had a spacecraft crash in Xiticix territory, and let the players pick whether they wanted to be the CS team sent to find out what was there, or a team from Tolkeen (iirc).


Phase world and such was never my bag. It seemed simultaneously to be overpowered and not powerful enough somehow.
And it was one of those settings where if access was regular, it'd change the face of Rifts Earth, but there was never any given reason I can recall why people from Phase World weren't popping up all over, and why people from Rifts Earth weren't going there regularly.

I don't really have any WBs I hate. Maybe New West / Spirit West but I love the setting just ignore most of the OCCs.

The WB I use the least has to be Australia, not because I don't like it but because it is so isolated and incomplete with just one of 3 planned books out that I just don't have much to work with.

As for Phase World and Mutants in Orbit/Rifts Space mixing they are different dimensions and there is nothing in Rifts Space that would attract people of the Three Galaxies. Also there are no canon spaceships that can move between dimensions. Dimensional travel is mostly done pyramid to pyramid or gate to gate.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't use England because I don't like the weird take on Arthur. Well, I do use millenium trees. Those are cool.

Yeah, all the Camelot stuff is just... ugh. and the rest of the setting info is either very brief, or very underwhelming. Does anyone get any use out of the Druid classes? The trees are handy and some of the other stuff has seeds to build off of, but it all needs lots of work. Should have just adapted the PFRPG Druid class, it's not that great either, but it's more interesting than the Druids in England.

There's also zero reason for the people of England and the other isles to have suddenly started cosplaying as knights.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I hate Rifts Japan because Rifts Earth was more interesting with Japan being what was originally described: a small cluster of islands where nothing of note happens.

I don't think I've ever used anything from Japan at all. Though I will say that if magic slingers knew that getting good at Aikido would double your PPE, it would probably be the only hand to hand style any magic slinger ever learned. (Rifts Japan page 193, level 10 Aikido Double existing PPE) Imagine how great that would be for any spellmonger?

Across the sea from Japan, I've never gotten any real use out of China either since while it has a lot of stuff I find entertaining, it's also pretty much it's own setting and not related to the rest of the world at all.
I do find the idea of guys going around abducting demons into slavery darkly amusing though.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I dislike New West

I am 100% onboard with everything you said about New West. The whole "post-apocalypse cowboy cosplayers" thing is just too freaking annoying. Are we meant to think that everyone living out there has secret meetings where they watch spaghetti westerns that have been preserved with religious zeal for centuries just so they can get their clichés right?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I dislike Spirit West for the same reasons why I dislike New West, PLUS there's a weird kind of racist Noble Savage take on Native Americans in it that rubs be the wrong way, the epitome of which is the Laser Bow... which I also hate for reasons of science and logic.
(If you want to know more, just Search for any number of rants I've made about the Laser Bow in the past.)

The BS Noble Savage thing and Native Americans suddenly being split into the "renegades" who like guns and tech and the magical Native Amish who only like magic? Where does that nonsense come from? As far as I'm aware, at no point did the native peoples of North America not like technology. Keeping to cultural traditions doesn't mean rejecting tech.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Phase world and such was never my bag. It seemed simultaneously to be overpowered and not powerful enough somehow.

Phase World's biggest issue for me is the unbelievably slow and short ranged spacecraft.


Either way. Africa, Australia, Canada, Free Quebec, and Coalition War Campaign are the other books I have absolutely no use for. Though stuff like the Xiticix Invasion and Siege on Tolkeen is of limited use too. I prefer a bleaker, less populated and resource rich North America. A lot more of the Madhaven and Dinosaur Swamp feel and a lot less pulling massive resources and populations directly from one's rump.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In defense of the RJ WB, they would be a small cluster of islands that nothing of note 'to the west' happens.
However, locally, what happened in Japan is of great concern to Japan.

I'm pretty sure that Pre-Rifts cities full of cyberninjas and tech samurai, and all that other stuff WOULD have been of note to the West.
If it was originally intended to be there at all, which it wasn't.

If you are in a day to day, week to week battle for survival in your concerns for you own local situation supersedes the day to day, week to week doings of countries your country can barely get to. Remember that the difficulty of travel is worse than it was in the early 1800's. Even though....they have MDC ships and planes. So yes, I was taking in a lot more into consideration in my comment then was apparent without taking time to think.

As to your comments, Yes I would try to send people there to watch if I could. But what would CONCERN ME would be things the local things that effected me directly. Even if I knew about what was going on half a world away...they would not be 'my concerns'. they would just be data about the world. For the world of the Coalition states in more like the earth of the late 1700's, than that of the 1900's or even post millennium earth.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, I object to the idea that somebody out west is going to be THAT much better with a pistol than somebody in the East or anywhere else.

As a rule of thumb, I don't restrict OCCs to a region just because they came from a World Book. So the Sheriff/Gunslinger/Psi-Slinger OCCs (and the like) would exist just about anywhere.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't use England because I don't like the weird take on Arthur. Well, I do use millenium trees. Those are cool.

Yeah, all the Camelot stuff is just... ugh. and the rest of the setting info is either very brief, or very underwhelming. Does anyone get any use out of the Druid classes? The trees are handy and some of the other stuff has seeds to build off of, but it all needs lots of work. Should have just adapted the PFRPG Druid class, it's not that great either, but it's more interesting than the Druids in England.

There's also zero reason for the people of England and the other isles to have suddenly started cosplaying as knights.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I hate Rifts Japan because Rifts Earth was more interesting with Japan being what was originally described: a small cluster of islands where nothing of note happens.

I don't think I've ever used anything from Japan at all. Though I will say that if magic slingers knew that getting good at Aikido would double your PPE, it would probably be the only hand to hand style any magic slinger ever learned. (Rifts Japan page 193, level 10 Aikido Double existing PPE) Imagine how great that would be for any spellmonger?

Across the sea from Japan, I've never gotten any real use out of China either since while it has a lot of stuff I find entertaining, it's also pretty much it's own setting and not related to the rest of the world at all.
I do find the idea of guys going around abducting demons into slavery darkly amusing though.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I dislike New West

I am 100% onboard with everything you said about New West. The whole "post-apocalypse cowboy cosplayers" thing is just too freaking annoying. Are we meant to think that everyone living out there has secret meetings where they watch spaghetti westerns that have been preserved with religious zeal for centuries just so they can get their clichés right?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I dislike Spirit West for the same reasons why I dislike New West, PLUS there's a weird kind of racist Noble Savage take on Native Americans in it that rubs be the wrong way, the epitome of which is the Laser Bow... which I also hate for reasons of science and logic.
(If you want to know more, just Search for any number of rants I've made about the Laser Bow in the past.)

The BS Noble Savage thing and Native Americans suddenly being split into the "renegades" who like guns and tech and the magical Native Amish who only like magic? Where does that nonsense come from? As far as I'm aware, at no point did the native peoples of North America not like technology. Keeping to cultural traditions doesn't mean rejecting tech.

MadGreenSon wrote:Either way. Africa, Australia, Canada, Free Quebec, and Coalition War Campaign are the other books I have absolutely no use for. Though stuff like the Xiticix Invasion and Siege on Tolkeen is of limited use too. I prefer a bleaker, less populated and resource rich North America. A lot more of the Madhaven and Dinosaur Swamp feel and a lot less pulling massive resources and populations directly from one's rump.

I think the great thing about the World Books is how self contained they are. If you don't like something you can leave it out and you won't break the setting.

I have never really had the problem with populating the world. There is still lots of open space and many of those populated areas are extremely dangerous. Federation of Magic, Xiticix Territory, Splugorth areas, and the CS areas if you run afoul of their laws are great road blocks for characters trying to get from one place to another.

I have never had anyone play a Druid or Native American OCC in a game but I also have never had anyone run a Borg, crazy, juicer, mystic, cyber doc, and so many others just in the RMB much less RUE. I have had someone run Ronin Samurai, Knight of Camelot, and even an Australian TRG officer. Are some of these OCCs silly, sure. Is it silly that Techno-Wizards like to dress like WWII pilots, yes. We are playing a game with dragons and giant robots so anything you add to that, including a guy in environmental MDC battle armor that looks like a medieval knights.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Phase world and such was never my bag. It seemed simultaneously to be overpowered and not powerful enough somehow.

Phase World's biggest issue for me is the unbelievably slow and short ranged spacecraft.

I am not sure but it is possible that a solid 25% (exaggeration) of the discussions on this forum deal with the inadequacies of Phase World Spacecraft. Yes they suck but I still love the setting and as I said before there is really no reason for ships or even people from that setting to go to Rifts Space.

I'd say South America 2, Australia, Free Quebec, China 1 & 2, Madhaven, and Lemuria haven't clicked for me. I think it's "Rifts ass end of the world you'll never visit book" issues combined with just a lack of connection to the geography (in the case of Madhaven and Quebec)


In defense of England; only 30 pages of the 150 is Camelot. The book is also the home of Millennium trees, Druidic magic, Chang-Ku dragons, Temporal Magic. . . And for anyone who wishes Rifts writers had better population control, Camelot is less than 20,000 people.

Warshield73 wrote:I think the great thing about the World Books is how self contained they are. If you don't like something you can leave it out and you won't break the setting.

That is pretty nice, it's true.

Warshield73 wrote:
I have never really had the problem with populating the world. There is still lots of open space and many of those populated areas are extremely dangerous. Federation of Magic, Xiticix Territory, Splugorth areas, and the CS areas if you run afoul of their laws are great road blocks for characters trying to get from one place to another.

This is all personal preference stuff anyway, right? I like creating the feel in North America that the reason people don't travel far is that it's genuinely dangerous to do so. Resources are tight, even the Coalition keeps fairly close to home most of the time.

It makes the kind of maniacs that are willing to ride out into the starkly dangerous unknown areas very useful to have around, if not the sort of people you want hitting on your sister.

Which is also why I usually nix stuff like large merc groups too.

Warshield73 wrote:I have never had anyone play a Druid or Native American OCC in a game but I also have never had anyone run a Borg, crazy, juicer, mystic, cyber doc, and so many others just in the RMB much less RUE. I have had someone run Ronin Samurai, Knight of Camelot, and even an Australian TRG officer. Are some of these OCCs silly, sure. Is it silly that Techno-Wizards like to dress like WWII pilots, yes. We are playing a game with dragons and giant robots so anything you add to that, including a guy in environmental MDC battle armor that looks like a medieval knights.

It's not the silliness I object to really. It's uselessness. The Druid OCCs are pretty freakin useless. The Native American ones are honestly pretty neat, or they would be if they didn't have so much nonsense clinging to them with that "Noble Primitive" cringe.

When it comes up (pretty rarely) I just... don't use the "Injuns don't like tech" stuff and present the Native Americans being just as pragmatic as anyone who isn't blindly antagonistic toward tech or magic tends to be; They make use of magic and tech according to what is available and appropriate to the situation. Because I honestly think the various shaman OCCs are pretty neat when not tied to a bunch of cringy nonsense. It's not like the various magic warrior or shaman types needs tons of tech stuff to do their jobs even when they have the option to use it.

No laser bows or War Chief power armor though, I have my limits.

Warshield73 wrote:I am not sure but it is possible that a solid 25% (exaggeration) of the discussions on this forum deal with the inadequacies of Phase World Spacecraft. Yes they suck but I still love the setting and as I said before there is really no reason for ships or even people from that setting to go to Rifts Space.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the Three Galaxies setting. It has it's annoying bits, but for the most part it is some great stuff. I mostly just ignore the speed and weapon range stats for the spacecraft, because it's not like I'm plotting combat on a hex map or anything anyway. If anyone at the table really needs sublight speed estimations I usually just go with the version Kitsune came up with.

Incriptus wrote:I'd say South America 2, Australia, Free Quebec, China 1 & 2, Madhaven, and Lemuria haven't clicked for me. I think it's "Rifts ass end of the world you'll never visit book" issues combined with just a lack of connection to the geography (in the case of Madhaven and Quebec)

I have a soft spot for Madhaven. I once ran a shortish game where the PCs were all Pseudo-Man tribals building up their little empire there.

Incriptus wrote:In defense of England; only 30 pages of the 150 is Camelot. The book is also the home of Millennium trees, Druidic magic, Chang-Ku dragons, Temporal Magic. . . And for anyone who wishes Rifts writers had better population control, Camelot is less than 20,000 people.

You want to know the biggest curse England had? It came out after Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis, both of which were heaving with fantastic world building. Especially Vampire Kingdoms.

It really makes the difference in depth and usability stand out. Imagine those first three were the only World Books and you'll understand my feelings about England. Because I remember that time.

Still, it's better than Africa!

MadGreenSon wrote:

Incriptus wrote:In defense of England; only 30 pages of the 150 is Camelot. The book is also the home of Millennium trees, Druidic magic, Chang-Ku dragons, Temporal Magic. . . And for anyone who wishes Rifts writers had better population control, Camelot is less than 20,000 people.

You want to know the biggest curse England had? It came out after Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis, both of which were heaving with fantastic world building. Especially Vampire Kingdoms.

It really makes the difference in depth and usability stand out. Imagine those first three were the only World Books and you'll understand my feelings about England. Because I remember that time.

Still, it's better than Africa!

I actually agree with this to a certain extent. When Vampire Kingdoms came out I was kind expecting a take on Vampire Masquerade and was blown away by how dark and savage it was. Atlantis, well still to this day I think it is the best world book and as I have said before probably the one I use the most because I also use it with Phase World.

England and Africa suffer from "be careful what you wish for" in that they leave a lot for the GM and players to fill in (especially Africa), the OCCs do not engage in power creep (especially England), and there is lots of open space with no human or alien settlements (especially Africa). But I have also been playing from the beginning and every new book was a welcome treat. My original player group also traveled all over the world so I used those first five WBs to death. My original Atlantis and England book split at the bindings from so much use so I have a sentimental place in my heart.

It also seems to me that you just can't please everyone. Some people are unhappy with how full North Americas while other people are desperately creating new material to fill up the mostly empty continent of Africa. Take what you like, ignore the rest and it doesn't break the system. That is the strength of Rifts and PB as a whole.

Warshield73 wrote:I actually agree with this to a certain extent. When Vampire Kingdoms came out I was kind expecting a take on Vampire Masquerade and was blown away by how dark and savage it was. Atlantis, well still to this day I think it is the best world book and as I have said before probably the one I use the most because I also use it with Phase World.

England and Africa suffer from "be careful what you wish for" in that they leave a lot for the GM and players to fill in (especially Africa), the OCCs do not engage in power creep (especially England), and there is lots of open space with no human or alien settlements (especially Africa). But I have also been playing from the beginning and every new book was a welcome treat. My original player group also traveled all over the world so I used those first five WBs to death. My original Atlantis and England book split at the bindings from so much use so I have a sentimental place in my heart.

It also seems to me that you just can't please everyone. Some people are unhappy with how full North Americas while other people are desperately creating new material to fill up the mostly empty continent of Africa. Take what you like, ignore the rest and it doesn't break the system. That is the strength of Rifts and PB as a whole.

This whole thread is people sharing their personal opinions, yeah? In my personal opinion, I prefer a Rifts where the question of whether humanity will ever rule the Earth unchallenged again is already answered with: "No, no it won't." and the rest is just how you deal with it. Some human groups are in denial, others have embraced it, and still others are too busy fighting to survive to worry about it.

I like that bit of bleakness. The world that rises from the ashes will not be anything like the one that fell. The Golden Age is gone and done.

Mack wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, I object to the idea that somebody out west is going to be THAT much better with a pistol than somebody in the East or anywhere else.

As a rule of thumb, I don't restrict OCCs to a region just because they came from a World Book. So the Sheriff/Gunslinger/Psi-Slinger OCCs (and the like) would exist just about anywhere.

Yeah... BUT then you have cowboys running around all over. Which is weird.
Or you change their look and general theme so they're not cowboys, and maybe scrap some skills to non-cowboy stuff, none of which you'd have to do if Palladium had done things right in the first place.
This is one where I think it should have been handled with skills and/or psychic powers, etc., rather than brand new OCCs.

I swear, I remember somebody from Palladium explaining WAY back in the day, "We don't have a Bard class, and we don't need one. Just have a mage that plays a musical instrument."
But maybe I just hallucinated that.

One of the cool things about Palladium's system was how customizable most OCCs were in various ways, how versatile.
Over time they just spammed out new classes at any excuse.

Sure, Vagabonds can Eyeball A Fella. That's actually fairly cool.
But NOBODY ELSE can learn that trick?
A Headhunter or Borg who trains their butt off with a pistol can't shoot as fast or as well as a Gunslinger?
Bah.
Humbug.
Grumble, grumble, grumble.

Killer Cyborg wrote:One of the cool things about Palladium's system was how customizable most OCCs were in various ways, how versatile.
Over time they just spammed out new classes at any excuse.

Sure, Vagabonds can Eyeball A Fella. That's actually fairly cool.
But NOBODY ELSE can learn that trick?
A Headhunter or Borg who trains their butt off with a pistol can't shoot as fast or as well as a Gunslinger?
Bah.
Humbug.
Grumble, grumble, grumble.

Sharpshooting is available to all men-at-arms, isn't it? As for an equivalent to "Eyeball a fella," the Intelligence skill might qualify. So might ID Undercover Agent. See Aura would also do the trick.

I agree that there are a lot of unnecessary O.C.C.'s, but you can do a lot with what's in the game, including creating the equivalent of a lot of supposedly O.C.C. exclusive abilities.

Hotrod wrote:As for an equivalent to "Eyeball a fella," the Intelligence skill might qualify. So might ID Undercover Agent. See Aura would also do the trick.

I could see Intelligence being used for that. Possibly in conjunction or with a bonus from Interrogation since both skills involve a lot of "reading" people. ID Undercover Agent might not be as expansive, but it would also work to an extent.

I could also see making an argument for getting a lot of the same info using Anthropology as long as the character was really familiar with the culture the person they were "eyeballin'" came from. I might not accept the argument, mind you, but I would be willing to entertain the notion.

See Aura definitely gets most of it and if the psychic involved had a lot of experience with it as well as Empathy, I could see them getting all of it and more.

Hotrod wrote:I agree that there are a lot of unnecessary O.C.C.'s, but you can do a lot with what's in the game, including creating the equivalent of a lot of supposedly O.C.C. exclusive abilities.

You know what I tend to dislike? OCCs that are nothing but skill lists and nothing much else.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:As for an equivalent to "Eyeball a fella," the Intelligence skill might qualify. So might ID Undercover Agent. See Aura would also do the trick.

I could see Intelligence being used for that. Possibly in conjunction or with a bonus from Interrogation since both skills involve a lot of "reading" people. ID Undercover Agent might not be as expansive, but it would also work to an extent.

I could also see making an argument for getting a lot of the same info using Anthropology as long as the character was really familiar with the culture the person they were "eyeballin'" came from. I might not accept the argument, mind you, but I would be willing to entertain the notion.

See Aura definitely gets most of it and if the psychic involved had a lot of experience with it as well as Empathy, I could see them getting all of it and more.

Hotrod wrote:I agree that there are a lot of unnecessary O.C.C.'s, but you can do a lot with what's in the game, including creating the equivalent of a lot of supposedly O.C.C. exclusive abilities.

You know what I tend to dislike? OCCs that are nothing but skill lists and nothing much else.

That's pretty much what occupations are, though, in the real world; the skills you use, the equipment you need, and the minimum attributes required to do the labor.
So it depends on how much verisimilitude you're into.

One of the reasons I moved to Palladium from D&D was because it was dumb that only Rogues and a couple other classes in D&D could Climb Walls, for example, and I loved that in Palladium pretty much ANYBODY could take basic skills like prowl, climbing, and so forth.
Not to mention WPs.

(That being said, I don't MIND class abilities; I just think there should be options for other people learning them as skills, when they're the kinds of things that should be learnable. If a class has divinely granted abilities, okay, that's different. And I can see stuff like Line Walker class abilities being tough for other mage classes to learn, and effectively impossible for non-mage classes to learn.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

That's pretty much what occupations are, though, in the real world; the skills you use, the equipment you need, and the minimum attributes required to do the labor.
So it depends on how much verisimilitude you're into.

In my case, it's more that after a certain point, all the various "skill package" OCCs have started to look the same and I've gotten tired of seeing more of them eating up page space.

However, like most stuff in this thread, this is entirely a personal taste thing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

One of the reasons I moved to Palladium from D&D was because it was dumb that only Rogues and a couple other classes in D&D could Climb Walls, for example, and I loved that in Palladium pretty much ANYBODY could take basic skills like prowl, climbing, and so forth.
Not to mention WPs.

I hear you. It's great that, for the most part, anyone who wants to put in the effort to learn a skill can do so with time and effort.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

(That being said, I don't MIND class abilities; I just think there should be options for other people learning them as skills, when they're the kinds of things that should be learnable. If a class has divinely granted abilities, okay, that's different. And I can see stuff like Line Walker class abilities being tough for other mage classes to learn, and effectively impossible for non-mage classes to learn.)

Y'know, seeing how often Line Walker abilities get duplicated in whole or part by various classes and a few races, I'm left wondering how often some of these peoples or training programs have brushed close to discovering the Geo-Immortal trick of agelessness via ley line and just barely missed it.

In my opinion, any class or race that can do Ley Line Rejuvenation or similar has at least gotten close to the mark.

It doesn't really mean anything ultimately, I just find the thought of people just barely missing agelessness like that kinda funny.

I actually like England. It's a beautiful mess of a book that tries to do a lot of things, succeeds at some, fails at others, and goes in directions I wouldn't expect.

For me, the greatest strengths of England are the sections on Millennium Trees, herbal magic and its associated O.C.C.'s. In a lot of ways, the herbal magic and druids make this book a great sourcebook for Palladium Fantasy. I also really like the maps in the book, which are unusually consistent with one another. These enabled me to make what I consider to be my best Rifts map to date.

That said, these druid sections also felt like they wouldn't translate into the rest of Rifts as well.

Some parts of England felt like leftovers from other books or ideas that were thrown in and not incorporated into the setting's design. The Cernun Mystics, the Star/Earth Children, and some of the other aliens just seemed out of place and uncompelling, and I still don't understand how the Cernun made the cover of that book. To be fair, though some of these seemingly out-of-place sections were so good that I didn't mind them being thrown in, like the Temporal Raider/Magic section and the Chiang-Ku. I just would have liked to see them incorporated into the central concept of the book. There seemed to be some kind of effort to turn the Fomorians into the big bads of this region, and the new pantheon seems to be something that should mean something, but they seemed to have so little to do with everything else that I hardly ever see or hear any fans speak about them.

I think it could have been more effective to have sections on faerie folk, more-defined regional powers, and a more central conflict with London of Splynn. I get what Kevin was trying to do with Camelot, but it didn't appeal to me, and I don't understand why it go so much focus in terms of artwork and writing. When I look at my map of the British Isles, it's striking how tiny Camelot is. I don't hate Camelot, I just think that it should have been trimmed down to half a page.

Then there's the awesomely frustrating bits of England, ideas that I would have loved to see expanded:
+Caliber-X. The concept of psionic enhancement technology was really exciting, it spoke to the future history of the UK, and it's all relegated to a weapon used by an N.P.C.
+The Scathach. One of my favorite character concepts gets about 3 sentences for a description. It could really have used more development.
+Herbal Magic. It felt under-developed.
+London of Splynn
+Every non-Camelot human power
+The goblin kingdoms of Wales.
+Inter-factional relations and intrigue

Thus, England can be frustrating for me, but as a primer for imagination, it's one of my favorites.

Hotrod wrote:Some parts of England felt like leftovers from other books or ideas that were thrown in and not incorporated into the setting's design. The Cernun Mystics, the Star/Earth Children, and some of the other aliens just seemed out of place and uncompelling, and I still don't understand how the Cernun made the cover of that book. To be fair, though some of these seemingly out-of-place sections were so good that I didn't mind them being thrown in, like the Temporal Raider/Magic section and the Chiang-Ku. I just would have liked to see them incorporated into the central concept of the book. There seemed to be some kind of effort to turn the Fomorians into the big bads of this region, and the new pantheon seems to be something that should mean something, but they seemed to have so little to do with everything else that I hardly ever see or hear any fans speak about them.

agreed, there were a number of what felt like filler material.. i liked the Cernun, but the star children just felt out of place, and IMO the whole section with the quasi-adventure of the golden table could have been dropped entirely or heavily condensed into adventure hooks. i also think the weird bugs and such could have been better integrated into the theme of the book. if the forests of England were no longer purely terran, and more emphasis was made on the existence of alien flora and fauna they would feel more natural.

I agree the Fomorians have potential as a local big bad (especially in contrast to the even greater bad hiding in plain sight in the form of Camelot and Myrrlyn) but their placement and the lack of fleshed out kingdoms near where they are (and thus under immediate threat) makes them feel largely pointless. also i find it really odd they put them in scotland, when the Fomóire were from irish mythology and folklore. the same goes for the pantheon, though in that case you could at least argue that they represented a pan-celtic beleif that was also follwoed by the pre-roman celtic peoples of Brittania. though why they seem to be running around in scotland where the native people had been the Picts (and who did not appear to follow celtic beliefs) is weird. (obviously this is just an artifact of the fact that research was a lot harder back when the book was written, when you barely even had the internet yet. though IMO trying to justify the oddities would make for some interesting metaplot fodder)

I think it could have been more effective to have sections on faerie folk, more-defined regional powers, and a more central conflict with London of Splynn. I get what Kevin was trying to do with Camelot, but it didn't appeal to me, and I don't understand why it go so much focus in terms of artwork and writing. When I look at my map of the British Isles, it's striking how tiny Camelot is. I don't hate Camelot, I just think that it should have been trimmed down to half a page.

i agree that Splynn should have been a bigger thorn in the side of the locals than it came across like.. IMO it should have been the main enemy of Camelot, with Arr'thuu fighting to officially try and 'reclaim London for England" but mostly fight against the Splugorth slave raids and extend Camelot's military power over eastern england.
though i tend to take the tack that Camelot, for all its trappings of chivalry and equality, is much like the historical medieval kingdoms. a layer of Gilt over a core of rot.. with policies that often result in neo-serfdom (debt-slavery/indentured servitude, a guild based education system that limits entry in order to control access and prices, etc), a legal system that effectively allows Knights and noblity to abuse the 'common classes' with little punishment, corruption running rampant, etc. all part of Myrrlyn's efforts to create an evil kingdom behind the facade of a noble honorable myth.

one thing i came up with that i'd have loved to see was a collective of small city-states in the north. which man a rebuilt version of hadrian's wall, and who's efforts are part of why the Fomorians haven't reached farther south. but these kingdoms would be starting to be overwhelmed, leading them to seek aid from the kingdoms to the south. and possible tensions with the southern kingdoms as a result. (arguments about the nature and amount of aid, clashes over jurisdiction, maybe even a few efforts to absorb the nearer city-states)

Then there's the awesomely frustrating bits of England, ideas that I would have loved to see expanded:
+Caliber-X. The concept of psionic enhancement technology was really exciting, it spoke to the future history of the UK, and it's all relegated to a weapon used by an N.P.C.
+The Scathach. One of my favorite character concepts gets about 3 sentences for a description. It could really have used more development.

there is a little extra in the "Britain in Chaos" article in rifter 27, which gives some material on england in the Chaos Earth gameline, and england's psionic tech and the agencies that created it (MI5 and MI6) play a substantial role.

+Herbal Magic. It felt under-developed.
+London of Splynn
+Every non-Camelot human power
+The goblin kingdoms of Wales.
+Inter-factional relations and intrigue

Thus, England can be frustrating for me, but as a primer for imagination, it's one of my favorites.

largely agree.

@killer cyborg for what it's worth, I think the european juicer is actually a lot worse than the regular one.

I mean, obviously it's better for the juicer in the long run in the sense that they're not doomed to an early grave, but iirc they don't get the automatic dodge so... why are they taking harmful combat drugs again?

(I also wouldn't say their cyborgs are strictly better than the US ones *can* be. a full-conversion 'borg with a really high budget can be pretty danged impressive...)

Hotrod wrote:These enabled me to make what I consider to be my best Rifts map to date.

1) That is a stunning map. Beautiful and useful.

2) That map really illustrates how very handy Ley Line Phasing would be for moving around the British Isles. I mean, damn. A Line Walker or Atlantean would have the whole of the isles at their fingertips. In a lot of places the ley lines don't get you everywhere, but in Britain? Everywhere.

Hotrod wrote:That said, these druid sections also felt like they wouldn't translate into the rest of Rifts as well.

I don't really think the Druid classes work that well even with England. At least, not for anyone who's going to be going out and doing stuff.

Hotrod wrote:Some parts of England felt like leftovers from other books or ideas that were thrown in and not incorporated into the setting's design. The Cernun Mystics, the Star/Earth Children, and some of the other aliens just seemed out of place and uncompelling, and I still don't understand how the Cernun made the cover of that book. To be fair, though some of these seemingly out-of-place sections were so good that I didn't mind them being thrown in, like the Temporal Raider/Magic section and the Chiang-Ku. I just would have liked to see them incorporated into the central concept of the book. There seemed to be some kind of effort to turn the Fomorians into the big bads of this region, and the new pantheon seems to be something that should mean something, but they seemed to have so little to do with everything else that I hardly ever see or hear any fans speak about them.

The Earth/Star Children, the bug people, the Temporal stuff, and the Chaing Ku. Some were pretty good, but none of them really fit in. Temporal Raiders/Magic and Chaing Ku would have honestly fit better in Atlantis. The dragons in the Atlantean section and the Raiders/Magic elsewhere since Temporal Raiders are called out as being the ones that love to raid the market.

The Cernun really don't fit there either, but I've got no idea where they'd fit either. Though I will admit my ex-wife once played a Cernun who babied and cooed at her horrible mutant giant pets in an absolutely hilarious manner once upon a time, so not a complete waste.

Hotrod wrote:I think it could have been more effective to have sections on faerie folk, more-defined regional powers, and a more central conflict with London of Splynn. I get what Kevin was trying to do with Camelot, but it didn't appeal to me, and I don't understand why it go so much focus in terms of artwork and writing. When I look at my map of the British Isles, it's striking how tiny Camelot is. I don't hate Camelot, I just think that it should have been trimmed down to half a page.

See, if he really needed to do a retread of Arthurian themes, he should have done it without the knight cosplay, which doesn't honestly fit the setting very well at all. If you can do MacBeth as a modern day mafia story, you can do The Matter of Britain as a story of post apocalyptic warlords.
So many pages wasted on yet another Alien Intelligence taking a gormless patsy for a ride...

Hotrod wrote:Then there's the awesomely frustrating bits of England, ideas that I would have loved to see expanded:
+Caliber-X. The concept of psionic enhancement technology was really exciting, it spoke to the future history of the UK, and it's all relegated to a weapon used by an N.P.C.

Genuinely love the idea of psychic James Bond stuff, which is why it's cool that there's that stuff in the Rifter for Chaos Earth. The sword itself is kinda underwhelming to me, but that's entirely a personal taste thing. My objection is aesthetic, not mechanical.

Hotrod wrote:+The Scathach. One of my favorite character concepts gets about 3 sentences for a description. It could really have used more development.

It took 'til Mystic Russia to get a fun and more useful magic blacksmith. And that's terrible.

Hotrod wrote:
+Herbal Magic. It felt under-developed.

I love magic herbology as a theme and I always have felt shortchanged by Mystic Herbology. The effects just aren't interesting enough or worth it for most of it. I keep intending to expand it somehow but never find the time or motivation.

Hotrod wrote:+London of Splynn
+Every non-Camelot human power
+The goblin kingdoms of Wales.
+Inter-factional relations and intrigue

You know it. All that stuff could have used an ocean of page space.

MadGreenSon wrote:
You want to know the biggest curse England had? It came out after Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis, both of which were heaving with fantastic world building. Especially Vampire Kingdoms.

It really makes the difference in depth and usability stand out. Imagine those first three were the only World Books and you'll understand my feelings about England. Because I remember that time.

Still, it's better than Africa!

Warshield73 wrote:
This whole thread is people sharing their personal opinions, yeah? In my personal opinion, I prefer a Rifts where the question of whether humanity will ever rule the Earth unchallenged again is already answered with: "No, no it won't." and the rest is just how you deal with it. Some human groups are in denial, others have embraced it, and still others are too busy fighting to survive to worry about it.

I like that bit of bleakness. The world that rises from the ashes will not be anything like the one that fell. The Golden Age is gone and done.

My two cents, I'm pretty much 100% in line with two quotes.

Aside from my dislike for England and Africa, I appreciate but only tangentially use books from outside the North American setting. Certain OCCs, monsters or gear may crop up for in game stuff, but I've got little to no practical use for them. <shrug> When I'm looking for ideas to write fiction though, I'm a little more expansive.

Shark_Force wrote:@killer cyborg for what it's worth, I think the european juicer is actually a lot worse than the regular one.

I mean, obviously it's better for the juicer in the long run in the sense that they're not doomed to an early grave, but iirc they don't get the automatic dodge so... why are they taking harmful combat drugs again?

(I also wouldn't say their cyborgs are strictly better than the US ones *can* be. a full-conversion 'borg with a really high budget can be pretty danged impressive...)

Fair points.

Generally I do not use books that are ships in a bottle. IE does not interact with NA.

I've gone on rants about this before, but it was always boggling to me that Palladium kept focusing on World Books for Rifts instead of Dimension Books.
The game is literally called "Rifts."
There should be a zillion dimension books by this point, not World Books.
Any shifter can open a rift to another dimension, but few adventurers can or will travel from one continent on Earth to another continent on Earth.

Moreover, as one of my old gaming buddies (RIP) once pointed out, there are a lot of World Books that would work better as dimension books.
You want King Arthur stuff? Great. Dimension Book Avalon!
You want high-tech ninjas & samurai? Great! Instead of having a Golden Age Japanese city rift away from Earth, then end up back here again hundreds of years later, write a dimension book where a Golden Age Japanese city got rifted away from Earth to someplace completely different!
Same deal with New West. Having all human culture revolve around old Westerns would make sense if a bunch of humans ended up on a different world in a different dimension that had a lot of deserts and plains, AND the only or primary remnants they had of Earth from before the cataclysm sent them away happened to be a bunch of Westerns.
Want a world of MDC mutant animals with super powers? Cool. Since characters are unlikely to ever travel to Argentina, maybe just make a Dimension book where those kinds of critters are native.

Leave Rifts Earth a mostly-destroyed place where humanity is still trying to climb back out of the ashes, as it was originally depicted.
Have fun and exciting worlds in a plethora of dimension books that are a lot easier for GMs to ignore if they don't like them.
Blerg.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've gone on rants about this before, but it was always boggling to me that Palladium kept focusing on World Books for Rifts instead of Dimension Books.
The game is literally called "Rifts."
There should be a zillion dimension books by this point, not World Books.
Any shifter can open a rift to another dimension, but few adventurers can or will travel from one continent on Earth to another continent on Earth.

Moreover, as one of my old gaming buddies (RIP) once pointed out, there are a lot of World Books that would work better as dimension books.
You want King Arthur stuff? Great. Dimension Book Avalon!
You want high-tech ninjas & samurai? Great! Instead of having a Golden Age Japanese city rift away from Earth, then end up back here again hundreds of years later, write a dimension book where a Golden Age Japanese city got rifted away from Earth to someplace completely different!
Same deal with New West. Having all human culture revolve around old Westerns would make sense if a bunch of humans ended up on a different world in a different dimension that had a lot of deserts and plains, AND the only or primary remnants they had of Earth from before the cataclysm sent them away happened to be a bunch of Westerns.
Want a world of MDC mutant animals with super powers? Cool. Since characters are unlikely to ever travel to Argentina, maybe just make a Dimension book where those kinds of critters are native.

Leave Rifts Earth a mostly-destroyed place where humanity is still trying to climb back out of the ashes, as it was originally depicted.
Have fun and exciting worlds in a plethora of dimension books that are a lot easier for GMs to ignore if they don't like them.
Blerg.

You're right. I remember when Africa came out and me and my group saw the Four Horsemen were in Africa and there was supposed to be a bunch of heroes gathering to oppose them. One of us said "That's great and all, but our group is in freakin' Kansas. How would we hear about this? Or get to Africa, of all places?"

We did end up getting some use out of the Necromancer information though, so it wasn't a total loss.

I'm pretty sure that group went to Wormwood for awhile and never went anywhere on Earth other than the former United States and Mexico. So your point about Dimension Books is well made.

Honestly, I've never had any games do any real globetrotting except for the one game that took place entire on ships at sea, which did some pretty wide ranging travel by default, but even then most of the places they went I had to invent because 8/10 port cities seem to be populated by demons.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've gone on rants about this before, but it was always boggling to me that Palladium kept focusing on World Books for Rifts instead of Dimension Books.
The game is literally called "Rifts."
There should be a zillion dimension books by this point, not World Books.
Any shifter can open a rift to another dimension, but few adventurers can or will travel from one continent on Earth to another continent on Earth.

I think this is a little backwards. Any group that wants to hop dimensions needs straight up mage. Mystics, warlocks, and temporal warrior types won't do the trick and most likely neither will a techno-wizard. Shifter works best, an OCC I have never had a player take, but LLW and temporal wizard will do work if needed. Most men-at-arms types avoid magic on some level and traveling through the same Rifts that nasty evil things crawl out of would probably put a lot of people off. In DB2 Phase World there is an opening short story about a bounty hunter and he flat out says he would never take a job going through the d-gates and those are much more stable than a wizards rift so have to imagine it would be even more so on Rifts Earth.

By contrast hoping on a boat or plane to see parts of the world that you see in pre-rifts books might have an appeal. Also those same Rifts can take you to different parts of the Earth with the same reliability that they can take you to another dimension.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Moreover, as one of my old gaming buddies (RIP) once pointed out, there are a lot of World Books that would work better as dimension books.
You want King Arthur stuff? Great. Dimension Book Avalon!
You want high-tech ninjas & samurai? Great! Instead of having a Golden Age Japanese city rift away from Earth, then end up back here again hundreds of years later, write a dimension book where a Golden Age Japanese city got rifted away from Earth to someplace completely different!
Same deal with New West. Having all human culture revolve around old Westerns would make sense if a bunch of humans ended up on a different world in a different dimension that had a lot of deserts and plains, AND the only or primary remnants they had of Earth from before the cataclysm sent them away happened to be a bunch of Westerns.
Want a world of MDC mutant animals with super powers? Cool. Since characters are unlikely to ever travel to Argentina, maybe just make a Dimension book where those kinds of critters are native.

I largely agree with your point about more Dimension Books. After Wormwood came out I thought we would start seeing more single book dimensions of that sort. I disagree with your specific examples but it would be easy enough if there is a location you like but don't want on earth just put it in another dimension.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Leave Rifts Earth a mostly-destroyed place where humanity is still trying to climb back out of the ashes, as it was originally depicted.
Have fun and exciting worlds in a plethora of dimension books that are a lot easier for GMs to ignore if they don't like them.
Blerg.

Never really got the empty feel from RMB. The description of the world was limited to the US from Rocky's to the Atlantic with just tiny parts of Canada and even in just that you had 5 CS states, a dozen city-states and hints about Atlantis, Europe, and Mexico. Yes the world is more crowded and connected than I thought it would be but not that much more.

MadGreenSon wrote:You're right. I remember when Africa came out and me and my group saw the Four Horsemen were in Africa and there was supposed to be a bunch of heroes gathering to oppose them. One of us said "That's great and all, but our group is in freakin' Kansas. How would we hear about this? Or get to Africa, of all places?"

I guess something like this is entirely dependent on the composition of your group and if you participate in any of the meta plots.

My players at the time were just finishing the Mechanoid invasion so they rallied with a large number of allies from that battle and hopped a boat for Africa. At the time I was using a lot of the standard (non mecha) vehicles from Robotech 1e as pre-Rifts tech so they managed to get over that way. The players were originally going to head to England by that same ship but when Africa came out they just changed plans.

As for other groups any psychic in your group (minor to master) could have received the vision of destruction in Mechanoid SB. They could have seen Plato's Edict of Planetary Distress in any town or from traveling merchants. Could have been recruited by a cyber-knight or other hero to follow them to Africa. Its Rifts they could have heard about anything you wanted them to and gotten anywhere you wanted.

MadGreenSon wrote:We did end up getting some use out of the Necromancer information though, so it wasn't a total loss.

I've said it before this is what I love about the World Books, or Rifts books in general, every book has something you can use.

MadGreenSon wrote:I'm pretty sure that group went to Wormwood for awhile and never went anywhere on Earth other than the former United States and Mexico. So your point about Dimension Books is well made.

I had planned a big campaign in Wormwood, 6 or 7 sessions worth, but the players got bored quick so I shortedned it to I think 3 or 4. Wormwood is really interesting to read about but the set up is so different that players from Rifts proper often have trouble. I did try to run an actual Wormwood group but 2 of the five players wanted to run characters from Rifts Earth and 2 others were Apoks. Again got boring quick.

MadGreenSon wrote:Honestly, I've never had any games do any real globetrotting except for the one game that took place entire on ships at sea, which did some pretty wide ranging travel by default, but even then most of the places they went I had to invent because 8/10 port cities seem to be populated by demons.

Again this is just style. Any campaign I ran for more than a few months makes it some other part of the Earth for at least a few sessions.

Warshield73 wrote:Never really got the empty feel from RMB. The description of the world was limited to the US from Rocky's to the Atlantic with just tiny parts of Canada and even in just that you had 5 CS states, a dozen city-states and hints about Atlantis, Europe, and Mexico. Yes the world is more crowded and connected than I thought it would be but not that much more.

In my games, most of the CS states are like how Lone Star was presented. They claim to hold much larger areas than they really do. Of course, in my games, the CS can't afford a massive army either. The rest of it makes sense. The middle of North America is the part most likely to have a relatively high population since it avoided stuff like the massive tsunamis and super volcanoes. Which is why tornado alley is where most of the North American settlements are.

Warshield73 wrote:I guess something like this is entirely dependent on the composition of your group and if you participate in any of the meta plots.

Most of the meta plot stuff is pretty hamfisted and difficult to pull together in a way that clicks with my aesthetic preferences.

Warshield73 wrote:My players at the time were just finishing the Mechanoid invasion so they rallied with a large number of allies from that battle and hopped a boat for Africa.

"Hopping a boat for Africa" just isn't a thing in my games for the most part unless you're part of a group that has pretty much always been a seafaring society. Even then getting from NA to Africa has a huge Atlantis shaped barrier. Between Splugorth slaving ships and dimensional tourists having fun playing pirate, the seas between Eastern NA and Africa are... really exciting.
You'd be better off trying to sail to Africa from the West coast, but there are plenty of issues with that too.

Warshield73 wrote:As for other groups any psychic in your group (minor to master) could have received the vision of destruction in Mechanoid SB. They could have seen Plato's Edict of Planetary Distress in any town or from traveling merchants. Could have been recruited by a cyber-knight or other hero to follow them to Africa. Its Rifts they could have heard about anything you wanted them to and gotten anywhere you wanted.

I mean, yeah. I could totally make something up to get them there, but I need to keep suspension of disbelief in mind, y'know?

Warshield73 wrote:
I had planned a big campaign in Wormwood, 6 or 7 sessions worth, but the players got bored quick so I shortedned it to I think 3 or 4. Wormwood is really interesting to read about but the set up is so different that players from Rifts proper often have trouble. I did try to run an actual Wormwood group but 2 of the five players wanted to run characters from Rifts Earth and 2 others were Apoks. Again got boring quick.

Wormwood requires a bit of fleshing out, it's true. Still, a bit of time as dimensional mercenaries hired by Worldgate was a good time for all.

Warshield73 wrote:
Again this is just style. Any campaign I ran for more than a few months makes it some other part of the Earth for at least a few sessions.

Personal style and preferences are what we're discussing here, so that's cool.

I'm not saying you're playing wrong, just to be clear. I'm just saying this is what I do and what I think.

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've gone on rants about this before, but it was always boggling to me that Palladium kept focusing on World Books for Rifts instead of Dimension Books.
The game is literally called "Rifts."
There should be a zillion dimension books by this point, not World Books.
Any shifter can open a rift to another dimension, but few adventurers can or will travel from one continent on Earth to another continent on Earth.

I think this is a little backwards. Any group that wants to hop dimensions needs straight up mage.

Or a scroll.
Or a supernatural creature or demon capable of opening a rift, like a Dimension Ghoul (which are described as Common on Rifts Earth), Goqua, Spider Demon, etc.
Or to be near a nexus at the vernal or autumnal equinox, the summer or winter solstice, a lunar eclipse, a partial eclipse, or any darned time the GM feels like having a random rift appear.
These aren't exactly "On Demand," but they're hardly inaccessible either. It'd likely be a lot easier making a deal with a Dimension Ghoul than trying to fly or ship across the ocean.

And for the Nexus points, you pretty much just have to wait. There's 6 times a year where a random rift opening is essentially guaranteed. Maybe fight off something or someone else who wants to use the nexus at that time. Plus there are about three lunar eclipses per year. Solar eclipses are tougher, but it all comes down to "does the GM want one to be happening at this time."

Mystics, warlocks, and temporal warrior types won't do the trick and most likely neither will a techno-wizard. Shifter works best, an OCC I have never had a player take, but LLW and temporal wizard will do work if needed. Most men-at-arms types avoid magic on some level and traveling through the same Rifts that nasty evil things crawl out of would probably put a lot of people off. In DB2 Phase World there is an opening short story about a bounty hunter and he flat out says he would never take a job going through the d-gates and those are much more stable than a wizards rift so have to imagine it would be even more so on Rifts Earth.

And there are people who will never travel by air or water, too, sure.

By contrast hoping on a boat or plane to see parts of the world that you see in pre-rifts books might have an appeal. Also those same Rifts can take you to different parts of the Earth with the same reliability that they can take you to another dimension.

Flying to the moon might have appeal; that's not the same as physically being able to make the trip with any realistic expectation of swiftness or safety.
It'd be one thing if Palladium indicated that intercontinental travel--or even transcontinental--travel was easy and/or common, but they don't. They treat pretty much every region as if it's at least fairly isolated most of the time. You don't see knights from England in North America except on rare occasions. In fact, I can't think of any NPCs from England in Rifts North America at all, although I can think of probably a half-dozen from Palladium Fantasy World, some from HU, and so forth.
We know that Triax and the CS have trade back and forth, but that's about it as far as "regular" interaction, and we don't know how common that trade actually IS. Could be something that happens once or twice a year, or every few years. The Atlantis book and Underseas don't exactly make transatlantic travel seem very easy or safe.

Of course, it's up to the GM how common encounters are for PCs. A GM could easily handwave things, and say "You get on a raft a Kon-Tiki your way to Japan on the currents," BUT that kind of thing would fit the setting as described than a GM saying "You're minding your own business when a Rift opens up and swallows you whole."
And sure, a random rift CAN take you to another place on Rifts Earth. But of all the infinite places in the Megaverse, I'd say the odds there would be a lot lower than the odds of it taking you to another dimension entirely.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Leave Rifts Earth a mostly-destroyed place where humanity is still trying to climb back out of the ashes, as it was originally depicted.
Have fun and exciting worlds in a plethora of dimension books that are a lot easier for GMs to ignore if they don't like them.
Blerg.

Never really got the empty feel from RMB. The description of the world was limited to the US from Rocky's to the Atlantic with just tiny parts of Canada and even in just that you had 5 CS states, a dozen city-states and hints about Atlantis, Europe, and Mexico. Yes the world is more crowded and connected than I thought it would be but not that much more.

If the United States of America had "five states and a dozen city-states," would you feel it was pretty full, or pretty empty?
I'd call that pretty empty.
We get a few cities in Mexico. We know the NRG is there and probably has a decent population, and we know Atlantis has a decent population, but for the world outside of North America, we're told:
-The British Isles have a buch of magic and no real tech, with a total population of 800,000 people, half of them D-Bees.
-France (for which we have yet to see a world book) has a population of 6 million, 1/3 of which are non-human.
-Spain (for whom I don't recall ever seeing a world book is about the same as France.
-The rest of Europe and the world "is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking."
-The Slavic countries and Russia "are vast wastelands and wilderness broken only by the occasional city ruins or new village. Tech levels are generally low."
-The NGR has a population of 5 million humans and 1.5 million non-humans, and has tech on par with Chi-Town.
-Amsterdam has 3 million people, and is an ally of the NGR.
-Denmark was devastated and remains a wasteland.
-Norway and Sweden (for whom I don't believe we ever got a World Book) are comparatively densely populated and technologically advanced, about on par with the NGR.
-India (former population of over a billion humans) "is a jungle with little human life and even less technology."
-China has a population of about 60 million, and "is reputed to be a mystic play ground for demons and supernatural monsters."
-Japan was besieged by a tidal wave and volcanic activity that toppled its great cities, and "today it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."
-Africa "is again The Dark Continent." Vague, but doesn't sound very inhabited.
-South America is a place where "only a few pockets of civilization remain."

Very little of that sounds NOT empty, and the places that are described as being the most populated--outside of China and the NGR, and England--haven't been described in world books as far as I remember, while places like Japan which are entirely indicated to be essentially lifeless except maybe some villages, end up with cities and high technology.

"Pockets of civilization" is pretty empty.
"Vast wilderness and wastelands" is pretty empty.

And North America--while better than most of those places--isn't exactly hustling and bustling.
The map of The Old American Empire has only 13 locations listed, all in a relatively narrow strip of land, and one of these is "Xiticix Territory."
MOST of the map is red, indicating "wilderness areas. These lands are dotted with towns, villages, and the occasional feudal kingdom, but are mostly wild, untamed areas inhabited by D-Bees, Mutants, and Monsters."

Sounds pretty empty to me.

Killer Cyborg wrote:-France (for which we have yet to see a world book) has a population of 6 million, 1/3 of which are non-human.

Looking at the half page of information in the back of England about France actually shows something pretty cool in my opinion. The entire northern coast of France to about fifty miles inland is a barren desert wasteland. Some kind of exotic plague or other biological agent prevents anything at all from growing in that area. Depending on what it means by "northern coast" that could be roughly 200 to 500 miles of coastline rendered into a barren waste.

Past that, other than Paris, it seems that most of the rest of France has been levelled.

Still, the coastal desert wasteland strikes a chord with me for some reason.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The map of The Old American Empire has only 13 locations listed, all in a relatively narrow strip of land.

I still think it's kinda funny that the most populated part of the country is basically tornado alley.

My least favorite would be Australia, Africa, and the Chinas. I don't see ever running a game in those locales.

England I rather like, possibly due to sentimental reasons. It does have the Chiang-ku, Millennium trees and Temporal classes though which are some of my favorite concepts that are also useful.

Japan I like mostly for the Samurai but also for the adventure idea of having a 400 million credit pair of swords buried in the rubble of a pawn shop in NA somewhere.

My favorites would be Mexico, Atlantis, Triax, New West and Federation of Magic.

Rifter11 wrote:Japan I like mostly for the Samurai but also for the adventure idea of having a 400 million credit pair of swords buried in the rubble of a pawn shop in NA somewhere.

Y'know, those missing Ghostly Katanas of Soul Slaying could be a plot element in a Chaos Earth game. The rumor that one or two of them were in Chicago just before the Coming of the Rifts plus the default assumption of CE that the Chicago area is the main area to play in...

I often underestimated shifters until I played one. Their minion ability can be helpful, you do not have to do SN evil, but you can call up outside help. Then their traveling experts makes them useful for getting to places you need.

I do agree that they should focus on making new dimensions, after all even with random rifts you would be more likely to go to another world than rifts earth.

Focusing on out of the way ships in a bottle for rifts earth is limited and almost backwards.

My least favorite/least used is Africa. I know, I know, Necromancers and Mind Bleeders, but neither of those appeals to me. The Necromancers feel more like necrophiliacs, the special Mind Bleeder powers just feel like things that some psychics should be able to do, and there was no reason to make them this super special RCC full of D-Bees instead of a special suite of powers.

As for England? I actually liked the non-Millenium Druids. I thought the herbal magic was awesome, liked the children of Earth and Stars, and things like the Cernun mystic. The Millenium Druids and the Herbalist OCC were kinda horrible, though. I agree, there's little reason for there to be knights and the like aside from "Mrryln Wanted It", and it is definitely the beginning of the "American Stereotypes are always accurate and there's an alien intelligence behind it all" era of books.

Mark Hall wrote:My least favorite/least used is Africa. I know, I know, Necromancers and Mind Bleeders, but neither of those appeals to me. The Necromancers feel more like necrophiliacs, the special Mind Bleeder powers just feel like things that some psychics should be able to do, and there was no reason to make them this super special RCC full of D-Bees instead of a special suite of powers.

Necromancers were better detailed, with more interesting and flavorful magic, in Mystic Russia even if you do want to use them and yeah, Mind Bleeders just seem pretty underwhelming in general. Even with the later retcon that they weren't exclusively D-Bees.

Mark Hall wrote:As for England? I actually liked the non-Millenium Druids. I thought the herbal magic was awesome, liked the children of Earth and Stars, and things like the Cernun mystic.

The biggest issue with the non-Millennium Druids after reflecting on them a bit is that they don't really seem very... player character-like? Like, I can see them being the pillars of a community and important and useful people in a local area, but they just don't seem like they'd be great for running around and getting into adventures.

They seem like they'd do their best work with plenty of time in one place and able to work on their various bits of magic rather than going adventuring. Much like an Alchemist in Fantasy.

Mark Hall wrote: The Millenium Druids and the Herbalist OCC were kinda horrible, though. I agree, there's little reason for there to be knights and the like aside from "Mrryln Wanted It", and it is definitely the beginning of the "American Stereotypes are always accurate and there's an alien intelligence behind it all" era of books.

The Alien Intelligence wanting to live a post apocalyptic SCA life is pretty strange, in all honesty. Britain has lot more going on than knights in it's history. A kingdom with post apocalypse redcoats using Japan-style TW muskets would be pretty neat, if you absolutely must have historical reenactors making a nation.

MadGreenSon wrote:Necromancers were better detailed, with more interesting and flavorful magic, in Mystic Russia even if you do want to use them and yeah, Mind Bleeders just seem pretty underwhelming in general. Even with the later retcon that they weren't exclusively D-Bees.

Sure, but that's Mystic Russia. In Africa, they mostly want to be scary and get inside dead things.

The biggest issue with the non-Millennium Druids after reflecting on them a bit is that they don't really seem very... player character-like? Like, I can see them being the pillars of a community and important and useful people in a local area, but they just don't seem like they'd be great for running around and getting into adventures.

They seem like they'd do their best work with plenty of time in one place and able to work on their various bits of magic rather than going adventuring. Much like an Alchemist in Fantasy.

Oh, absolutely. And they're gonna hard-core suck if they're off-planet for an extended period of time if the GM doesn't throw them a bone. But, TBH, I'd say "not very PC-like" also applies to Techno-Wizards, which folks love, since their best abilities come from making stuff.

The Alien Intelligence wanting to live a post apocalyptic SCA life is pretty strange, in all honesty. Britain has lot more going on than knights in it's history. A kingdom with post apocalypse redcoats using Japan-style TW muskets would be pretty neat, if you absolutely must have historical reenactors making a nation.

The idea that every PA society is made up entirely of the descendants of re-enactors really makes a whole lot of sense of Rifts, tbh.

any book with vampires in it, i won't use it. i don't like vampires normally, i don't care much for alien intelligences and mixing the two is like brushing my teeth and rinsing with orange juice. utter garbage in my eyes.

Mark Hall wrote:But, TBH, I'd say "not very PC-like" also applies to Techno-Wizards, which folks love, since their best abilities come from making stuff.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had anyone play a Techno Wizard and I've never done so myself. It can be fun to have TW stuff around or to just theorize out of game about possible TW stuff, but no one has ever wanted to play one.

Mark Hall wrote:The idea that every PA society is made up entirely of the descendants of re-enactors really makes a whole lot of sense of Rifts, tbh.

Everybody in The New West is descended from hardcore Spaghetti Western fans.

England, and I'm a GM, so neither I nor my party uses the thing. Is it interesting, sure, but not compared to other books in the series. My guess is that this is a great place to throw SDC characters, especially PF characters, but I couldn't imagine using this book unless you had a very specific build in mind.

Juicer Uprisings... I hate juicers, so Idon't much care for the book all about them.

Sohisohi wrote:Juicer Uprisings... I hate juicers, so Idon't much care for the book all about them.

I have to admit that I find Juicers pretty repulsive on a visceral level. The Juicer Uprising book has seen some use though, if for nothing else the info on Kingsdale and some of the goodies and groups in it.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:But, TBH, I'd say "not very PC-like" also applies to Techno-Wizards, which folks love, since their best abilities come from making stuff.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had anyone play a Techno Wizard and I've never done so myself. It can be fun to have TW stuff around or to just theorize out of game about possible TW stuff, but no one has ever wanted to play one.

TW's make for a better "Q" than "James Bond." The need for a workshop and a lot of time really hinders adventuring. A workaround would be for the character to a be a field tester of new equipment, working for a large, established TW shop.

Mack wrote:TW's make for a better "Q" than "James Bond." The need for a workshop and a lot of time really hinders adventuring. A workaround would be for the character to a be a field tester of new equipment, working for a large, established TW shop.

Yeah. That's about the size of it. As much fun as it can be to try and come up with new TW stuff, actually playing the guy or gal supposed to be building it wouldn't be as much fun because you'd need to be in a workshop building stuff when everybody else can actually go do things.

Or worse, because so many TW components can be so expensive, you could end up hamstrung in your ability to build at all without going on high paying adventures.

You're pretty well gonna end up deprived of something no matter how you go about it. Either you can't build stuff, or you can't go on adventures as much. Either way it's a pretty frustrating thing to contemplate and is a decent reason to avoid playing one.

I can see it working if the whole group is made up of crafters of one kind or another, then you can have the whole gang take periodic crafting breaks to update, repair, and/or create new gear. That might be pretty unique. If you have five or six PCs and they're all different kinds of crafter, then maybe they can aim towards eventually collaborating on some totally OP multi-disciplinary monstrosity combining their talents? That would be a pretty epic climax to a campaign, deploying their artifact of doom...

However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

The time needed for toy builders could be between adventures or quests. Basically between sessions. Depending on how time intensive things they are building, a few days here and their to a few weeks could be how long between paying jobs. -Other than juicers most classses do not have a short life span.

After all why would a party not take a few days off after a big score. -They might also need time to repair equipment.

Big things like a full vehicle you could be looking at months but the time does not all need to spent at once. So a few days or weeks here an their while they tinker on it. They might have small projects they work on while traveling.