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With various ordinary person classes in DR & BtS, along with basic citizen classes for each faction, has anyone played a character or game centered around being a normal dude in RIFTS?

No.

There's nothing normal about me.

I guess I should clarify, it's not common but I've seen a few people post about their experiences playing characters that were "just some dude". They all seemed to have good things to say about the experience and it makes me wonder if RIFTS could work as a survival horror type game.

Because technology is so powerful, equipment is a pretty good equalizer; with enough MDC stuff, it doesn't really matter what OCC you pick. The real question is figuring out how to get some of that MDC stuff as a regular everyday SDC rando. Since the campaign could be a day-one start, it could also prevents the party from selling their bodies into juicerhood or Borgdom.

I think it would be an enjoyable way to play, turning the plot into a meta narrative, but I'd like to get your thoughts on the subject.

Sohisohi wrote:With various ordinary person classes in DR & BtS, along with basic citizen classes for each faction, has anyone played a character or game centered around being a normal dude in RIFTS?

Yeah, I rolled myself up as a Vagabond pretty early back in the day. I wasn't skilled enough in real life to qualify for any other class.


It was fun, and worked out well.

Sohisohi wrote:I guess I should clarify, it's not common but I've seen a few people post about their experiences playing characters that were "just some dude". They all seemed to have good things to say about the experience and it makes me wonder if RIFTS could work as a survival horror type game.

Because technology is so powerful, equipment is a pretty good equalizer; with enough MDC stuff, it doesn't really matter what OCC you pick. The real question is figuring out how to get some of that MDC stuff as a regular everyday SDC rando. Since the campaign could be a day-one start, it could also prevents the party from selling their bodies into juicerhood or Borgdom.

I think it would be an enjoyable way to play, turning the plot into a meta narrative, but I'd like to get your thoughts on the subject.

When I first got started in Rifts, I wanted to play uber-powerful characters who couldn't die, and who could defeat any obstacle or villain.
But over time, I ended up being the opposite kind of player; I really got into the challenge of playing characters who weren't very powerful, and who had to think hard and fast to survive.
As a GM and a player, I really enjoy playing Rifts at the level where the main characters have low or no mega-damage, but they're up against low-end MD threats, IF things are set up where that leaves some kind of fighting chance.
Unfortunately, a lot of people can't get into that kind of game because they can't seem to grok combat as anything other than "suddenly there's monsters/bad-guys in easy combat distance. Nobody's behind cover or concealment, and both parties are all facing one another.
Kind of like how old-school armies with muskets would often form firing lines and just sit there shooting at each other, until people started realizing that maybe spreading out and shooting from cover might work better. THAT kind of combat can't work with large power differences.

I prefer stuff like the first Terminator movie as a template; there's an almost unstoppable monster after you, and you have to do a lot of running and use a lot of tactics if you want to survive.
I think Rifts is at its very best when there's a mix of SDC and Mega-Damage, where both power levels come into play and have opportunities to shine.

That's the way I write it, too. If you haven't done so, you might enjoy reading this short story I wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=3073668#p3073668

I've found that those looking to emulate themselves within a game system crunchier than Munchausen or Dread tend to fall within few categories: they're quite young, want to say they're superior in some way to another player, are fishing for a "thank you for your service", want to play with weaponry at the table, and/or are looking to take role playing into the bedroom. This is a shame because there are some good stories to be had on how one might act in different situations. I'd go so far as to argue there's an intrinsic quality to mechanically-forward RPGs such that the form doesn't lend itself to that kind of game.

Playing ordinary people in games can be fun, and in certain genres like horror is practically necessary. To the extent unabashedly taking part in a cooperative game with an ulterior motive is pretty unethical, however, maintaining that one degree of abstraction between player and character provides a good litmus for when people chafe under it.

Yes but I had to use the Juicer attributes.

Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

MadGreenSon wrote:Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

In my case it would be 'First round vaporization".

taalismn wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

In my case it would be 'First round vaporization".

Right? I do okay in our world, but I ain't built for the post apocalypse.

I did that once with Robotech. It's quite easy to make yourself into a character when you're in junior high. It gets harder as you age.

taalismn wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

In my case it would be 'First round vaporization".

Had that happen with a Crazy one time. He died on the first attack of the first round of the first combat. Nat 20s suck.

The problem with this is that all MDC equipment that might equalize the game require skills and no one I know knows how to fly a SAMAS or pilot a titan robot or even how to maintain a plasma ejector. Given the characteristics of a laser rifle it would probably be, relatively, easy for the average person to use it. Much easier than a modern assault rifle but cleaning and maintaining it would be almost impossible.

To me games like Dead Reign and especially BTS are more suited to play yourself. I am reasonable proficient with a shotgun and other firearms, as are most of my friends, and we all know how to drive a car and even a few a motorcycle. But Rifts, sounds like a short game.

Now to be clear every time I have played an ordinary person in DR I have died but I usually made it to the end of the adventure.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Sohisohi wrote:I guess I should clarify, it's not common but I've seen a few people post about their experiences playing characters that were "just some dude". They all seemed to have good things to say about the experience and it makes me wonder if RIFTS could work as a survival horror type game.

Because technology is so powerful, equipment is a pretty good equalizer; with enough MDC stuff, it doesn't really matter what OCC you pick. The real question is figuring out how to get some of that MDC stuff as a regular everyday SDC rando. Since the campaign could be a day-one start, it could also prevents the party from selling their bodies into juicerhood or Borgdom.

I think it would be an enjoyable way to play, turning the plot into a meta narrative, but I'd like to get your thoughts on the subject.

When I first got started in Rifts, I wanted to play uber-powerful characters who couldn't die, and who could defeat any obstacle or villain.
But over time, I ended up being the opposite kind of player; I really got into the challenge of playing characters who weren't very powerful, and who had to think hard and fast to survive.
As a GM and a player, I really enjoy playing Rifts at the level where the main characters have low or no mega-damage, but they're up against low-end MD threats, IF things are set up where that leaves some kind of fighting chance.
Unfortunately, a lot of people can't get into that kind of game because they can't seem to grok combat as anything other than "suddenly there's monsters/bad-guys in easy combat distance. Nobody's behind cover or concealment, and both parties are all facing one another.
Kind of like how old-school armies with muskets would often form firing lines and just sit there shooting at each other, until people started realizing that maybe spreading out and shooting from cover might work better. THAT kind of combat can't work with large power differences.

I prefer stuff like the first Terminator movie as a template; there's an almost unstoppable monster after you, and you have to do a lot of running and use a lot of tactics if you want to survive.
I think Rifts is at its very best when there's a mix of SDC and Mega-Damage, where both power levels come into play and have opportunities to shine.

That's the way I write it, too. If you haven't done so, you might enjoy reading this short story I wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=3073668#p3073668

See for me this kind of play is more about player experience and temperament than how tough the PCs are. When I started my original Rifts group in high school all the players were humans with either psi or magic except for one Hatchling Dragon, which if you remember the dragon from RMB wasn't that tough. During this time the players would often rush in beat things over the head till death. When they stopped playing almost 20 years later the PCs were all near godling level but they were far better at using tactics and thinking things through. Partly because of age and experience and partly because I sent them against the toughest things in the books so they had to to survive.

taalismn wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

In my case it would be 'First round vaporization".

Right there with you, I would probably sh... poop myself to death before the first shot is fired.

MadGreenSon wrote:Right? I do okay in our world, but I ain't built for the post apocalypse.

Yeah I barely survive our world so not doing much against MDC monsters.

most of the time when my group ended up in rifts as "ourselves" it wasn't really us that ended up there, but either an "optimized version of ourselves"
(instead of me being almost 50 and 6'2 and 250lbs, but suddenly I am 16-18 again 6'2 and 150-16o lbs and in decient to great shape) or more of a "transferred intelligence /personality thing" so instead of me being a 50 year old IT specialist and generalist (to give a rough approximation of the skills I would have: english primary language (american) precalculus in high school so basic and advanced math, cooking (amatur not professional) rudimentary sewing (if needed I can repair tears in clothing but its going to be obviously repaired) auto repair, basic mechanics, basic electronics, carpentry a wide range of basic skills, in engineering, pc repair, basic programming, computer operation at a fairly high level, basic weapon proficiencies, wp club (baseball bat, played in school) soccer running, general athletics wrestling wp pistol, wp rifle, wp shotgun (all at low levels) etc.
so I "wake up" and am in the body of .... with these extra skills, or have an opportunity to pick up some training before it gets too dangerous (IE you wake up in the robotech/macross setting as a civilian, or someone reporting to boot camp (or equivalent) to train to be a insert OCC etc.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Kind of like how old-school armies with muskets would often form firing lines and just sit there shooting at each other, until people started realizing that maybe spreading out and shooting from cover might work better. THAT kind of combat can't work with large power differences.
viewtopic.php?p=3073668#p3073668

This is a bit of a tangent, but there were actually very good reasons why people fought that way:
1. Muskets were far more unreliable and slow back in the day than they are today. In any given volley, you'd have a lot of misfires. By shooting together, you had a better chance of achieving a significant effect, and alternating ranks could keep up a steady rate of effective fire. By contrast, a single dude shooting a muzzle-loader becomes totally vulnerable for 20ish seconds, and reloading a muzzle loader required standing up.

2. Black powder makes a lot of smoke. The smokeless powder of modern firearms is a marvel that folks could only dream of until the mid 19th century. The bright colors of pre-20th century battle uniforms were essential for preventing friendly fire and coordinating the mass movement of troops. This also illustrates why bugles, drums, and bands were so important, as smoke could often impede signal flags, and shouted orders were hard to hear in battle.

3. Despite #1 and #2, old-school armies had a lot more to them than lining up and firing volleys. Skirmishers were a big deal: they would spread out in pairs and use cover and concealment. Even when regular infantry formed line to fight, there was a science and an art to deploying them effectively that included using cover. In the final action at Waterloo, for example, Wellington had his troops concealed behind a hill crest as the Old Guard attacked, luring them in, and then having them stand up and pour concentrated fire into the charge, breaking and repelling the Old Guard. Wellington was a master at using hills with infantry.

By contrast, A modern infantry rifle gives one soldier the firepower of a platoon from the Napoleonic Wars in a package that can be loaded and fired in all weather, lying down, and with very little smoke. Our ancestors weren't dumb; they were working with and around the limitations of their technology.

This is also an issue I sometimes have with Rifts; there are technologies and powers that would likely revolutionize how militaries would fight, but the books often don't explore their implications. Case in point: at a relatively modest expense, any modern military in Rifts could equip its soldiers with jet packs. I've yet to see any book explore the tactical or strategic implications of jet pack-equipped infantry. The only mobile infantry O.C.C. we have is the Paratrooper, a class built around a deployment method that hasn't been used in large-scale combat since WW2.

The thing about playing yourself in an RPG is, you have to be objective about it.
You also have to remember that for a lot of people, what they were like growing up and what they were later change.
I'm from a military family, and wasn't really allowed to be a "couch potato" and we moved around quite a bit. So, I ended up growing up speaking and being able to read a couple of languages other than "American". I was more into shooting, sports and martial arts than video or role-playing games, which I only got into regularly after joining the army.
I spent 8 years in the army (10th Mountain), so I built up quite a bit of experience with that life.
So really, I'd have to make a character with two classes, and they'd need some kind of modification. Maybe Vagabond from 12-18 years old, so probably 2nd or even 3rd level, but knowing karate; then the Special Forces from Rifts Mercenaries, without the PA and changed weapon skills, likely 6th-8th level.
The problem with role-playing games is the fact that the characters "grew up in a vacuum", and are often played by people with a limited form of real-world experience. Yes, in the army you tend to find some gamer geeks, but they usually had some kind of life other than that (which is why they join the military).

As for some other points, if you have experience handling and maintaining modern weapons, I'm pretty sure you can figure out how to maintain a laser rifle, and so on.
I can't speak for anyone's life experiences or will to live; if you get thrown into a place like Rifts Earth the will to live is what would determine your ability to survive more than just about anything else, and most people these days never see that tested. In fact, the way people get raised these days creates a weakness in that area that most can never overcome.

Thanks for that.

The Image comic DIE has an associated RPG written by the author that's worth a look. The pitch is players create regular people whom get sucked into a heavily meta game world, with overtly gamist mechanics leveraged towards examining interpersonal drama. While there are the usual problems with self-referential entertainment being prone to crawling up its own butt, leaning on gaming tropes the way it does facilitates creating stories about ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, including topics which if affecting the actual players would be in poor taste.

There are supplemental methods for using other games as props/prompts, which can be fun. It's akin to a game of Microscope using Fiasco to run a particular focus, or interdimensional games using changing rulesets. It's the sort of gaming at one remove which helps keep players interested in self-aggrandizement from monopolizing the playspace.

Curbludgeon wrote:Thanks for that.

The Image comic DIE has an associated RPG written by the author that's worth a look. The pitch is players create regular people whom get sucked into a heavily meta game world, with overtly gamist mechanics leveraged towards examining interpersonal drama. While there are the usual problems with self-referential entertainment being prone to crawling up its own butt, leaning on gaming tropes the way it does facilitates creating stories about ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, including topics which if affecting the actual players would be in poor taste.

There are supplemental methods for using other games as props/prompts, which can be fun. It's akin to a game of Microscope using Fiasco to run a particular focus, or interdimensional games using changing rulesets. It's the sort of gaming at one remove which helps keep players interested in self-aggrandizement from monopolizing the playspace.

It looks like the creators read Quag Keep.
Interesting idea for a game.

Warshield73 wrote:The problem with this is that all MDC equipment that might equalize the game require skills and no one I know knows how to fly a SAMAS or pilot a titan robot or even how to maintain a plasma ejector. Given the characteristics of a laser rifle it would probably be, relatively, easy for the average person to use it. Much easier than a modern assault rifle but cleaning and maintaining it would be almost impossible.

To me games like Dead Reign and especially BTS are more suited to play yourself. I am reasonable proficient with a shotgun and other firearms, as are most of my friends, and we all know how to drive a car and even a few a motorcycle. But Rifts, sounds like a short game.

Now to be clear every time I have played an ordinary person in DR I have died but I usually made it to the end of the adventure.

MadGreenSon wrote:Right? I do okay in our world, but I ain't built for the post apocalypse.

Yeah I barely survive our world so not doing much against MDC monsters.

Mack wrote:

taalismn wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:Myself in Rifts? Unless I was somewhere very civilized and safe, that would be a short session of roleplaying being very afraid and then dying.

In my case it would be 'First round vaporization".

Had that happen with a Crazy one time. He died on the first attack of the first round of the first combat. Nat 20s suck.

Well, to get into the meta, you could always pick up skills via the rulebook once you level in RIFTS Earth. So you turn a rather simple task, such as arming yourself, into an adventure/ordeal for your creditless character. Since most NPCs only make like 1,000cr a year (or less), you can't really 9-to-5 your way out. Mechanics and/or mechanical skills are an exception, but otherwise you're at the mercy of your location. You'll have no choice but to ally yourself with one of the many factions or go 'borg/juicer, all of which come with responsibilities and consequences for those who neglect them.

Alternatively, you try and disarm some minor threat or steal your way into some equipment. Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Sohisohi wrote: Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Eh, that's a serious crapshoot because that stuff that we're familiar with from the modern day may not be in the same place 77 years in the future of an alternate universe.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Sohisohi wrote: Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Eh, that's a serious crapshoot because that stuff that we're familiar with from the modern day may not be in the same place 77 years in the future of an alternate universe.

What makes you so sure it's an alternate future?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Sohisohi wrote: Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Eh, that's a serious crapshoot because that stuff that we're familiar with from the modern day may not be in the same place 77 years in the future of an alternate universe.

What makes you so sure it's an alternate future?

Different corporations, different history before our time, etc.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Sohisohi wrote: Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Eh, that's a serious crapshoot because that stuff that we're familiar with from the modern day may not be in the same place 77 years in the future of an alternate universe.

fair enough, but if nothing else then you can really on the zoning that is America urban planing.

Chances are, even if you're house has been bulldozed, the neighborhood is still there because it's been zoned as a residential area. Because of how zoning works it's always easier to build a home, gunshop, factory, or mall on land that used to be zoned for a home, gunshop, factory, or mall. Basically, even though businesses can survive for multiple generations, chances are the same type of business will be found in it's place IF someone else bought up the property at a later date.

So you're right in the regard that you'll likely never be able to recover your own property, but having that pre-cataclysm knowledge of places would still be of value.

Sohisohi wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Sohisohi wrote: Presumably, if you are not playing a citizen within' RIFTS Earth, then your characters knows the physics location of stuff. Their home, business, and hangouts are ALL potential claims to be dug up and/or sold off for a quick buck. . . Knowing where an entire neighborhood is buried can be worth credits.

Eh, that's a serious crapshoot because that stuff that we're familiar with from the modern day may not be in the same place 77 years in the future of an alternate universe.

fair enough, but if nothing else then you can really on the zoning that is America urban planing.

Chances are, even if you're house has been bulldozed, the neighborhood is still there because it's been zoned as a residential area. Because of how zoning works it's always easier to build a home, gunshop, factory, or mall on land that used to be zoned for a home, gunshop, factory, or mall. Basically, even though businesses can survive for multiple generations, chances are the same type of business will be found in it's place IF someone else bought up the property at a later date.

So you're right in the regard that you'll likely never be able to recover your own property, but having that pre-cataclysm knowledge of places would still be of value.

Gun shop is not a zone in urban planning. What is zoned where can be changed some areas can be multi zoned. The zones are typically residential, commercial and industrial. (Finding the expect you are looking for could also be hard because the landmarks you used are long gone.

Even if not dug up the 100's of years since the golden age, much might not be very valuable. With prewar maps they can reasonably know where most major towns and cities where at. (not to mention some of the stuff could have been rifted away.) Commercial electronics probably would not have lasted exposed to the elements after people abandoned it. Coastal stuff could have been destroyed or dragged into the ocean by tsunamis. Bases and cites could have been hit with WMD.

Not that their are not things that can be extraverted just knowing where you lived does not mean you know the location of pre-rifts catch of goods.

Hotrod wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Kind of like how old-school armies with muskets would often form firing lines and just sit there shooting at each other, until people started realizing that maybe spreading out and shooting from cover might work better. THAT kind of combat can't work with large power differences.
https://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p3073668

This is a bit of a tangent, but there were actually very good reasons why people fought that way:
1. Muskets were far more unreliable and slow back in the day than they are today. In any given volley, you'd have a lot of misfires. By shooting together, you had a better chance of achieving a significant effect, and alternating ranks could keep up a steady rate of effective fire. By contrast, a single dude shooting a muzzle-loader becomes totally vulnerable for 20ish seconds, and reloading a muzzle loader required standing up.

2. Black powder makes a lot of smoke. The smokeless powder of modern firearms is a marvel that folks could only dream of until the mid 19th century. The bright colors of pre-20th century battle uniforms were essential for preventing friendly fire and coordinating the mass movement of troops. This also illustrates why bugles, drums, and bands were so important, as smoke could often impede signal flags, and shouted orders were hard to hear in battle.

3. Despite #1 and #2, old-school armies had a lot more to them than lining up and firing volleys. Skirmishers were a big deal: they would spread out in pairs and use cover and concealment. Even when regular infantry formed line to fight, there was a science and an art to deploying them effectively that included using cover. In the final action at Waterloo, for example, Wellington had his troops concealed behind a hill crest as the Old Guard attacked, luring them in, and then having them stand up and pour concentrated fire into the charge, breaking and repelling the Old Guard. Wellington was a master at using hills with infantry.

By contrast, A modern infantry rifle gives one soldier the firepower of a platoon from the Napoleonic Wars in a package that can be loaded and fired in all weather, lying down, and with very little smoke. Our ancestors weren't dumb; they were working with and around the limitations of their technology.

This is also an issue I sometimes have with Rifts; there are technologies and powers that would likely revolutionize how militaries would fight, but the books often don't explore their implications. Case in point: at a relatively modest expense, any modern military in Rifts could equip its soldiers with jet packs. I've yet to see any book explore the tactical or strategic implications of jet pack-equipped infantry. The only mobile infantry O.C.C. we have is the Paratrooper, a class built around a deployment method that hasn't been used in large-scale combat since WW2.

The closest I've seen to the jet pack infantry is the CS Juicers in Heroes of Humanity but they don't go into detail, just that they use them.

To the original question, I'm a fan of the adventurer occs, to the point that the world book I'm making is centered around them and fleshing them out. Not so much in the sense of making them more powerful, but in highlighting what they can and should actually do in a game that makes them a lot more useful. For example, it is very easy to argue that an adventurer class has the ability inherently to make massive amounts of money that isn't generally an option for other classes. Gathering information to sell as lore books, making maps, gathering flora and fauna for sale, etc, which can all be done during time that is usually 'fast forwarded' through in most games, that they can not only sell, but resell to anyone they come across.

In that vein, I did play a character (who is getting immortalized in this book) that was similar to me but not really me. He's a vagabond photographer. He doesn't really fight except in the rare cases of self defense. But he's got a silver tongue, a good eye and generally well skilled as just being the least interesting thing around. He ended up as a minor celebrity for many different factions to the point of sometimes getting assigned armed guards on his assignments, because he'd take pictures of different battles and sell different pictures to both sides for the purposes of propaganda. He didn't really care about anyone's actual politices, he was there to capture and observe and did a great job at it. He even got a pair of camera drones as a gift for his work. It was just a very interesting way to play.

Hotrod wrote:This is also an issue I sometimes have with Rifts; there are technologies and powers that would likely revolutionize how militaries would fight, but the books often don't explore their implications. Case in point: at a relatively modest expense, any modern military in Rifts could equip its soldiers with jet packs. I've yet to see any book explore the tactical or strategic implications of jet pack-equipped infantry. The only mobile infantry O.C.C. we have is the Paratrooper, a class built around a deployment method that hasn't been used in large-scale combat since WW2.

The CS infantry is 11m mechanized infantry. That is a mobile infantry just not flying.
(We had 1 large scale combat jump in the last 20 years, also the only combat jump airborne has done in 20 years.)

Honestly mobile infantry o.c.c.s are not really needed because most places outside the CS have small operation zones. The CS SF is mobile and has standard flying PA and jet packs. The paratrooper OCC is because of the airborne mind set in airborne troops, honestly no one would waste the resources to train dedicated Paratroopers. Think about it in NA who has need to transport troops a long distance fast and does not have some other way. (Given that we have many on the books armed transports that can land in any open spot dedicated jet packs seam, like a bad choice.)

In other threads people addressed issues with the rules and combat units using jet packs.
(skill checks means lots of your jet pack troops would get injured in crashes, forced by being under fire when landing. Shooting from a jet pack would be wild shots.) Any QRF force needs more fire power than standard infantry. IE your fast movers will have to deal with PA level threats, to work in large scale operations. So yes you could send a force on jet packs cheaper than PA to attack but will have lots of injuries in combat and lack heavy fire power.

Flying PA is the main mobile force, for QRF mobile force.
Equiping a unit with jet packs and training them to use it requires significant dedication.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Hotrod wrote:This is also an issue I sometimes have with Rifts; there are technologies and powers that would likely revolutionize how militaries would fight, but the books often don't explore their implications. Case in point: at a relatively modest expense, any modern military in Rifts could equip its soldiers with jet packs. I've yet to see any book explore the tactical or strategic implications of jet pack-equipped infantry. The only mobile infantry O.C.C. we have is the Paratrooper, a class built around a deployment method that hasn't been used in large-scale combat since WW2.

The CS infantry is 11m mechanized infantry. That is a mobile infantry just not flying.
(We had 1 large scale combat jump in the last 20 years, also the only combat jump airborne has done in 20 years.)

Honestly mobile infantry o.c.c.s are not really needed because most places outside the CS have small operation zones. The CS SF is mobile and has standard flying PA and jet packs. The paratrooper OCC is because of the airborne mind set in airborne troops, honestly no one would waste the resources to train dedicated Paratroopers. Think about it in NA who has need to transport troops a long distance fast and does not have some other way. (Given that we have many on the books armed transports that can land in any open spot dedicated jet packs seam, like a bad choice.)

In other threads people addressed issues with the rules and combat units using jet packs.
(skill checks means lots of your jet pack troops would get injured in crashes, forced by being under fire when landing. Shooting from a jet pack would be wild shots.) Any QRF force needs more fire power than standard infantry. IE your fast movers will have to deal with PA level threats, to work in large scale operations. So yes you could send a force on jet packs cheaper than PA to attack but will have lots of injuries in combat and lack heavy fire power.

Flying PA is the main mobile force, for QRF mobile force.
Equipping a unit with jet packs and training them to use it requires significant dedication.

That's a reasonable rationalization against having jet packs be common, and to be fair, I think that most players and GMs haven't worked out the implications of widespread jet pack use, either.

There's a dearth of information on how pretty much anyone uses jet packs in Rifts, as well as how the mechanics of using them plays out. Consider:
-What kinds of operations with a jet pack require a skill check?
-What kinds of maneuvers can a jet pack do, and what kinds of maneuvers can't they do?
-How is a jet pack controlled? Hands? head? legs? A combination thereof?
-What are the rules for shooting while flying a jet pack? Are these different from shooting a separate weapon while flying other flying platforms like power armor, robots, planes, sky cycles, etc?
-What are the rules for dodging and evasion when flying a jet pack?

The question of power armors, robots, and large transports vs jet packs is an interesting one.
+If money, technology, and resources are plentiful, but people are scarce, then large vehicles, power armor, and robots make a lot of sense; they're much more effective on a person-by-person basis.
+If money and resources are tight, and people are plentiful, then jet pack infantry makes a lot of sense; you could equip somewhere between a squad and a platoon for the cost of a single power armor suit, a single squad or platoon tends to be much more effective in a fight than a single power armor suit, and jet packs would give them a degree of tactical and strategic independence and flexibility way beyond anything we have today.
+How important are heavy weapons in Rifts? In the rules as written, pistols do M.D., and swarm tactics with even light infantry weapons are quite effective.

This is just the example of jet packs. There are a lot of technologies in Rifts that would revolutionize warfare in ways the published books don't explore.

Hotrod wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Hotrod wrote:This is also an issue I sometimes have with Rifts; there are technologies and powers that would likely revolutionize how militaries would fight, but the books often don't explore their implications. Case in point: at a relatively modest expense, any modern military in Rifts could equip its soldiers with jet packs. I've yet to see any book explore the tactical or strategic implications of jet pack-equipped infantry. The only mobile infantry O.C.C. we have is the Paratrooper, a class built around a deployment method that hasn't been used in large-scale combat since WW2.

The CS infantry is 11m mechanized infantry. That is a mobile infantry just not flying.
(We had 1 large scale combat jump in the last 20 years, also the only combat jump airborne has done in 20 years.)

Honestly mobile infantry o.c.c.s are not really needed because most places outside the CS have small operation zones. The CS SF is mobile and has standard flying PA and jet packs. The paratrooper OCC is because of the airborne mind set in airborne troops, honestly no one would waste the resources to train dedicated Paratroopers. Think about it in NA who has need to transport troops a long distance fast and does not have some other way. (Given that we have many on the books armed transports that can land in any open spot dedicated jet packs seam, like a bad choice.)

In other threads people addressed issues with the rules and combat units using jet packs.
(skill checks means lots of your jet pack troops would get injured in crashes, forced by being under fire when landing. Shooting from a jet pack would be wild shots.) Any QRF force needs more fire power than standard infantry. IE your fast movers will have to deal with PA level threats, to work in large scale operations. So yes you could send a force on jet packs cheaper than PA to attack but will have lots of injuries in combat and lack heavy fire power.

Flying PA is the main mobile force, for QRF mobile force.
Equipping a unit with jet packs and training them to use it requires significant dedication.

That's a reasonable rationalization against having jet packs be common, and to be fair, I think that most players and GMs haven't worked out the implications of widespread jet pack use, either.

There's a dearth of information on how pretty much anyone uses jet packs in Rifts, as well as how the mechanics of using them plays out. Consider:
-What kinds of operations with a jet pack require a skill check?
-What kinds of maneuvers can a jet pack do, and what kinds of maneuvers can't they do?
-How is a jet pack controlled? Hands? head? legs? A combination thereof?
-What are the rules for shooting while flying a jet pack? Are these different from shooting a separate weapon while flying other flying platforms like power armor, robots, planes, sky cycles, etc?
-What are the rules for dodging and evasion when flying a jet pack?

The question of power armors, robots, and large transports vs jet packs is an interesting one.
+If money, technology, and resources are plentiful, but people are scarce, then large vehicles, power armor, and robots make a lot of sense; they're much more effective on a person-by-person basis.
+If money and resources are tight, and people are plentiful, then jet pack infantry makes a lot of sense; you could equip somewhere between a squad and a platoon for the cost of a single power armor suit, a single squad or platoon tends to be much more effective in a fight than a single power armor suit, and jet packs would give them a degree of tactical and strategic independence and flexibility way beyond anything we have today.
+How important are heavy weapons in Rifts? In the rules as written, pistols do M.D., and swarm tactics with even light infantry weapons are quite effective.

This is just the example of jet packs. There are a lot of technologies in Rifts that would revolutionize warfare in ways the published books don't explore.

Considering how much jetpacks just aren't used by seemingly anyone, it almost makes you wonder if their inclusion in the game is some kind of long running misprint?

Skill checks are covered by page 318 Rue -any thing that is adverse being under fire, coming in to fast, dodging/evasive ect will cause a skill check and penalties might apply.
Shooting from a moving jet pack would covered by 361 Rue- shooting wild- moving vehcile/platform/horseback is shooting wild -6 to attack (at one time vehicle mounted weapons where exempt not sure if that is still true)
(type maneuvers and controls typically are not covered by the rules for any vehicle and would be up to the GM if you can do a specific trick..)
Dodging would be done as normal but would require a skill check to maintain control as it is a evasive maneuver. 318.

So on several your questions are actually covered in the core book.

Blue_Lion wrote:Skill checks are covered by page 318 Rue -any thing that is adverse being under fire, coming in to fast, dodging/evasive ect will cause a skill check and penalties might apply.

That section describes skill checks that apply to all vehicles. If there's nothing uniquely hazardous about using a jet pack, then casualty risks from jet pack crashes are no different than for any other vehicle: they'll be driven by the piloting skill. Pilot: Jet Pack starts at 40% an unremarkable level as pilot skills go. Whether it's better to have lots of people depending on a single person's skill check or having lots of people depending on their own separate skill checks is an interesting question.

Blue_Lion wrote:Shooting from a moving jet pack would covered by 361 Rue- shooting wild- moving vehcile/platform/horseback is shooting wild -6 to attack (at one time vehicle mounted weapons where exempt not sure if that is still true)
(type maneuvers and controls typically are not covered by the rules for any vehicle and would be up to the GM if you can do a specific trick..)
Dodging would be done as normal but would require a skill check to maintain control as it is a evasive maneuver. 318.

How is this different from other vehicles, robots, or power armor? If it isn't, then why is it better to risk a power armor that costs millions vs a jet pack that costs 40k credits?

Blue_Lion wrote:So on several your questions are actually covered in the core book.

They are covered in a general sense, but not specifically to jet packs. You raise an interesting point, though.

I've always operated under the assumption that power armor pilots of suits like the SAMAS fly in combat without needing to do piloting checks shoot while flying without penalty, because that's how they're portrayed in the artwork. Now that I think about it, I don't recall ever doing a piloting skill check for robots and power armor in combat, but in the rules as written, we should be doing this for every leaping/flying suit whenever a pilot dodges, and all shots for flying/jumping pilots should be wild. I've never seen that done.

This question may be worthy of a separate thread; we've kind of derailed this one.

This was my attempt at the process. Despite my modern military training and master's level education, things don't look good, particularly if I'm brought in anywhere close to Xiticix territory.....

https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... -character

desrocfc wrote:This was my attempt at the process. Despite my modern military training and master's level education, things don't look good, particularly if I'm brought in anywhere close to Xiticix territory.....

https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... -character

According to the Xiticix world book, as long as you're quietly wandering through and not causing a ruckus, you should be ok.

desrocfc wrote:This was my attempt at the process. Despite my modern military training and master's level education, things don't look good, particularly if I'm brought in anywhere close to Xiticix territory.....

https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... -character

It doesn't look too bad for a guy randomly taken from a comparatively paradisiacal world. Best hope would be to be someplace relatively safe you could get a job and never go anywhere. Random rifts are pretty unlikely to deposit you in a safe spot, so...

Still, if you were in a relatively safe place, you seem qualified to at least earn a living. If nothing else "post apocalyptic short order cook" looks like something you're qualified for.

MadGreenSon wrote:It doesn't look too bad for a guy randomly taken from a comparatively paradisiacal world. Best hope would be to be someplace relatively safe you could get a job and never go anywhere. Random rifts are pretty unlikely to deposit you in a safe spot, so...

Still, if you were in a relatively safe place, you seem qualified to at least earn a living. If nothing else "post apocalyptic short order cook" looks like something you're qualified for.

LOL, I'm sure"post apocalyptic short order cook" ever crossed my mind, but hey, I'm not above earning a living. I know for some, that will strike as "a little rich" coming from a senior officer, but hey, so long as my protein doesn't come with an exoskeleton, I'm good!

desrocfc wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:It doesn't look too bad for a guy randomly taken from a comparatively paradisiacal world. Best hope would be to be someplace relatively safe you could get a job and never go anywhere. Random rifts are pretty unlikely to deposit you in a safe spot, so...

Still, if you were in a relatively safe place, you seem qualified to at least earn a living. If nothing else "post apocalyptic short order cook" looks like something you're qualified for.

LOL, I'm sure"post apocalyptic short order cook" ever crossed my mind, but hey, I'm not above earning a living. I know for some, that will strike as "a little rich" coming from a senior officer, but hey, so long as my protein doesn't come with an exoskeleton, I'm good!

Hey, as long as it doesn't involve heading out into the demon haunted wastelands? Just about any job sounds pretty sweet.

Fenris2020 wrote:

desrocfc wrote:This was my attempt at the process. Despite my modern military training and master's level education, things don't look good, particularly if I'm brought in anywhere close to Xiticix territory.....

https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... -character

According to the Xiticix world book, as long as you're quietly wandering through and not causing a ruckus, you should be ok.

Unless they decide you are food. They do hunt people.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

desrocfc wrote:This was my attempt at the process. Despite my modern military training and master's level education, things don't look good, particularly if I'm brought in anywhere close to Xiticix territory.....

https://www.scholarlyadventures.com/pos ... -character

According to the Xiticix world book, as long as you're quietly wandering through and not causing a ruckus, you should be ok.

Unless they decide you are food. They do hunt people.

Yes, but I'd rather take my chances getting through there than ending up in the CS, where I might be identified as a D-Bee.

Yes my group played Rifts with "Me,Myself&I" characters.
Started in our timeline at the time. 1998ish.
Strange Fog on the ocean took up Rifts Earth time period.

We started with HU2 Ordinary People Education Levels for skills.
We joined a Mercenary Group for protection and learned the Trade of being a Headhunter OCC with Power Armors.
••if done now, RUE era, it would have been RV/PA Pilot OCCs.••
It was a Great game. Worked Fantastic.
It changed how my players played forever too. They started thinking things through and planning. They was willing to Retreat from battles and even try to win without any combat if possible.
I was proud of them.

Afterwards. These traits of gaming slipped into every character they play. Think. Plan. Combat or No combat tactics. Survive don't die.