Terrifying use of the Rifts CFT E-6 Cartridges?

[ShadowLogan]

Rifts has CFT Energy Six System

RPG FACTS:
1. Cartridges cause Recoil
2. stated to have a range of 1/2-1/3 of conventional energy pistol
3. size of cartridge is supposed to have appearance/size of .44 or .45 caliber or 9-10mm bullet (of the 5 guns, 3 list .45cal and the other two do not.)
4. Damage of 3d6MD or 2d6+3MD depending on gun
5. Range is 300ft/500ft/300ft/600ft/600ft
6. Cost per E-6 round is 320c per or case of 96 for 29,700c (~309cr per)

Questions:
1. What is the metric equivalent of .45caliber as that is the listed size of each gun known to use E-6 when stated? Assuming a circular area for both missile and cartridge, how many E-6 rounds can be packed into common RT 2E Missile diameter sizes? Projectile Rounds? As Rifts doesn't really do actual sizing AFAIK, the use of 2E Robotech sizes can at least give an idea of what it might look like.
A1: .45 inch caliber bullet = 11.43mm, pretty close to the 9-10mm size (and 2mm difference is likely hard to eyeball)
A2: 60mm (20x)-Mini, 70mm (26x)-Mini, 78mm (34x)-Mini, 190mm (212x)-SRM, 377mm-MRM (845x), 430mm (1102x)-LRM, 530mm (1675x)-MRM, 560mm (x)-MRM.
A3: 14.5mm (x1), 20mm (x1), 25mm (x3), 30mm (x4), 40mm (x8), 44mm (x9), 50mm (x13), 55mm (x16), 64mm (x22), 105mm (x64), 400mm (x951)
Note on A2 and A3: by area the number is actually higher, however I used a website* that calculated circles w/n circles and it comes out with the numbers listed which accounts for gaps between the circles (where the use of straight area does not).

Basically if one took enough E-6 cartridges and arrayed them in place of an missile warhead to fire in a single volley (assume the 3d6 cartridge)... Shudder as that means a 6d6x10 Mini-Missile (possibly 9d6x10), a 6d6x100 SRM, 3d6x1000 LRM or MRM using the above numbers as multipliers and rounded down for simplicity.

I would have thought cost would have killed this idea, but... factoring the cost of the just the warhead (missile body sold separately) the total cost of the E-6 cartridges buying them at the box rate (~310cr per):
-60mm Mini Missile costs ~6,188cr, the cost of Plasma mini missiles to equal the damage is 14,400 (RUE pg256-7)
-190mm SRM cost is ~65,588cr,, the cost of Plasma Short Range missiles to equal the damage is 76,800cr
-377mm MRM cost is 261,422cr, the cost of Plasma Medium Range missiles to equal the damage is 151,200cr

The only area where cost favors regular missiles appears to be Medium/Long Range Missiles, but that only really holds if you maximize the number of CFT cartridges. In those cases you could reduce the number of CFT cartridges to what's on the SRM sizes (or even just 1/4 of it) and it would be cost effective in terms of damage output to go with a single CFT warhead array rather than a larger number of missiles. These figures also assume the revised missile table from RUE/CWC (WB11) and not the original table found in RMB (they do less damage for SRM/MRM/LRM, not sure about cost offhand).

One drawback to the CFT warheads is they don't have a blast radius, they create a directed charge. Which can be an asset if one is trying to limit collateral damage.

While the Naruni Plasma Cartridges...

Spoiler:

can also be used in the same setup, they are fired from a nearly 2" bore (for simplicity lets call it 2", that makes it ~4.4x larger than an E-6). Assuming a setup similar to CFT...

Type, modifier, Cost, cost of comparable # of missiles for damage:
-60mm Mini Missile, x1, 40cr, note the warhead in this case is inferior to the Plasma Mini Missile in terms of damage but the missile costs 2,360cr more
-190mm SRM, 9x, 360cr, plasma SRMs for same damage would cost 6,840cr more
-377mm MRM, 41x, 1640cr, plasma MRMs for same damage would cost 15,160cr more

These guys are even more cost effective, but it should be noted the average damage isn't going to be as much as a CFT

*
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smal ... _1849.html

2. What is the nature of the Energy? It is said to have 1/2-1/3 range of conventional energy pistol, what does it consider a "conventional energy pistol"? Ion, Particle, Laser, Plasma all are conventional energy, but have different ranges.
A: Based on my incomplete library... Ion (200-1000ft), Laser (150-1000ft), Particle (150-1200ft), Plasma (200-500ft). At least in terms of Energy types we can rule out plasma from the start (even with the best plasma system falls short). Particle beam would be the leading contender based on range (1/2 to 1/3 of 1200 is 600-300, lining up nicely with the examples and text), Laser and Ion work for 3/5ths of the examples.

3. Can the Recoil be explained?
A: A result of the energy storage medium releasing its energy could explain the recoil experienced. Chemical Lasers, specifically the sub type of gas dynamic laser could explain the recoil experienced as they do have a combustion chamber and generate exhaust. MD Chemical lasers exist in MiO setting, no mention of recoil, but we know that Chemical lasers (or even the use of explosives as in the X-Ray Laser in the setting) are capable of generating MD level energies. Offering possible explanations for why a Laser could have recoil.

[Blue_Lion]

When you start changing the war head with other things you can get higher damage and things do not work out.
Basically it is not possible to use outside numbers to generate a weapon in rifts without breaking rifts.


examples
the a 10 main missile (agm-65 mavrick) has a 126 pound war head. (range is between short and long range.) 1 pound of NG 6 M.D. plastiqui does 2d4X10 20 MD. so that missile would have a damage of 5,000 - 16,000. That we do not have mrm doing more damage means this formula does not hold up.

Every assault rifle creates a sonic boom (fire super sonic rounds) but does not create the GB sonic boom affect.
So
Linking the rounds together like you want may not get the full damage, could be other issues. It requires a kind GM.

[Killer Cyborg]

When you start changing the war head with other things you can get higher damage and things do not work out.
Basically it is not possible to use outside numbers to generate a weapon in rifts without breaking rifts.


examples
the a 10 main missile (agm-65 mavrick) has a 126 pound war head. (range is between short and long range.) 1 pound of NG 6 M.D. plastiqui does 2d4X10 20 MD. so that missile would have a damage of 5,000 - 16,000. That we do not have mrm doing more damage means this formula does not hold up.

Every assault rifle creates a sonic boom (fire super sonic rounds) but does not create the GB sonic boom affect.
So
Linking the rounds together like you want may not get the full damage, could be other issues. It requires a kind GM.

WAY back in Ninjas & Superspies, they had a rule for homemade explosives that was something along the lines of "there's a 50% increase in damage for every doubling of the explosives."

I don't think that fixes things, but it's interesting.

[ShadowLogan]

Re: explosives
@Blue_Lion
I'll agree to disagree then. I'm not sure if explosives provide the best counter argument, since this is using the cartridge from a gun. A Naruni Plasma cartridge can be rigged as an improvised mine with no change in damage, and the E-6 can fire from a non-E-6 system gun (1/2 range, and the weapon might not contain the energy discharge). IMHO this means the E6/NP cartridges operate under the rules for guns, which typically scale directly as the number of guns used (you could also use the burst rules, which assumes some % miss).

Damage inflicted by Explosives can be tricky to in the Palladium system due to factors like the Blast Radius. It does listed damage to the intended target, but also anything in the radius (w/n reason). So if Bob the Deadboy gets hit with a Plasma Mini Missile, he takes 10-60MD, but anyone else in the blast radius will take 5-30. So if 3 guys are with Bob, the total output would be 25-150 total, but if 6 guys are with Bob it jumps to 40-240 total, but if Bob was alone its still only 10-60. Gun systems, even spraying an area, don't work that way AFAIK (its round damage x modifier, plus random number who might be in the coverage area, those missing rounds also do damage when they hit something).

[Blue_Lion]

Re: explosives
@Blue_Lion
I'll agree to disagree then. I'm not sure if explosives provide the best counter argument, since this is using the cartridge from a gun. A Naruni Plasma cartridge can be rigged as an improvised mine with no change in damage, and the E-6 can fire from a non-E-6 system gun (1/2 range, and the weapon might not contain the energy discharge). IMHO this means the E6/NP cartridges operate under the rules for guns, which typically scale directly as the number of guns used (you could also use the burst rules, which assumes some % miss).

Damage inflicted by Explosives can be tricky to in the Palladium system due to factors like the Blast Radius. It does listed damage to the intended target, but also anything in the radius (w/n reason). So if Bob the Deadboy gets hit with a Plasma Mini Missile, he takes 10-60MD, but anyone else in the blast radius will take 5-30. So if 3 guys are with Bob, the total output would be 25-150 total, but if 6 guys are with Bob it jumps to 40-240 total, but if Bob was alone its still only 10-60. Gun systems, even spraying an area, don't work that way AFAIK (its round damage x modifier, plus random number who might be in the coverage area, those missing rounds also do damage when they hit something).

I think you miss under stood the point.
Trying to apply outside logic to weapons could breaks rifts.

Honestly the concept is the same weather you are stacking pounds of explosives or gun cartages. (As you pointed out the Nurni cartage can be treated as an explosive.)

Splash damage calculations do not change the base damage code. Using it the way you did seams to be a straw man defense to say the things are different. The explosive I listed does not have a listed blast radius. It says the damage per pound but does not mention its area of affect. So as written it is not a AoE weapon.

Page 101 Rifts Merc
"NG 6 M . D . plastique: M.D. damage per ounce: ID6 points per ounce or 2D4 x 10 +20 M.D. per pound (0.5 kg); cost: 60 credits an ounce or 960 credits a pound. Poor to fair availability."

[Gorczany]

Actually your stance that generic energy is a game thing is not supported by canon as far as I can tell.
Simply because we are not told what it is, does not mean it does not have a kind.
Now if you have an example of Canon Rifts material with generic "non-specific energy" below the Elder Race level of technology I would be interested (and be willing to entertain changing my opinion on this)
But as it is, the lack of us being told the kind of something does not mean that it doesn't have a kind.
After all, we are not told what railgun rounds are made out of, so I guess we must assume that they are made out of undifferentiated matter. In fact by this logic I guess we must presume that almost everything in the game is made out of some generic undifferentiated matter as they very rarely tell us what it IS made out of...
Almost as if not telling us the details does not mean that those details do not exist.

Tell The Bell

[ShadowLogan]

IINM though the Plastique (as described in Rifts Mercenaries) are being used for cutting/precision work, so it's lack of a blast radius could be related to that AND explain why its so potent, where an AoE explosive would be better like Dynamite (which in Mercenaries doesn't have a weight, off-hand I don't know if that was addressed in a later book).

The end effect here is really no different than if you had a giant creature like a Cyclops (or Dragon) or a mecha (PA/Robot/FCB) due to their size have an Operator (or weapons engineer) create a multi-barrel version of the NG-57 Ion Pistol (or pick a "light" energy rifle) by wiring a bunch of them together to fire at the same time in a custom frame (to allow ease of handling for the giant) and getting additive damage. Really it depends on how the Cartridges in the array are setup and such in terms of finer details that where not considered here.

Now I do have to admit if a PC came up with this and I was the GM I'd be skeptical to allow it to be implemented. When I did the work I had 3 ways I decided to work in terms of damage modifier:
-1. An area to area ratio (based on pure area how many cartridges I could fit into the given area), this actually results in higher values. This however has the flaw that if both are circular objects, then arraying a bunch inside another circle would have gaps that is being used based on area but not in the actual design.
-2. I used the website cited in the OP to workout how many could actually fit since their would be gaps between the circular cartridges #1 method did not.
-3. I could use a simple diameter ratio, which yields up much smaller values in comparison (Mini are x5-6, SRM are x16-29, M/LRM are x32-48) with much more "balanced" damages.

The 3rd option is the approach I would likely allow a PC to do if I was the GM since the resulting damage codes while high are not terrifyingly so.