Forums of the Megaverse®

So what city probably has more Juicers in it than anywhere else?

I'm guessing Kingsdale but what does everyone else think?

The Big Book of Juicers page 133 says the coalition intended to wipe out 15-20% of the North American juicer population, killing 30-40 thousand juicers. Head math says the skullheads believe there are approximately 200,000 juicers on the continent.

Kingsdale has a transient, merchant, and juicer population of 2000-8000. Either they're swamped with rug salesmen or up to 4% of the juicer population is in Kingsdale at any time.

Head cannon says juicer basic training and post-op services are hosted there or nearby. Remember, each conversion takes time to complete, time to adjust to, and weeks before the body gets up to full speed and strength.

Beyond that, those kingdoms contracting for indentured juicers probably want them trained up in all those level one juicer skills, and maybe walking and behaving like soldiers. Better bet is those kings want those hyper-violent super-soldiers trained somewhere else, saving the kingdom the danger and hassle of teaching a nascent superman how to fly.

ITWastrel wrote:The Big Book of Juicers page 133 says the coalition intended to wipe out 15-20% of the North American juicer population, killing 30-40 thousand juicers. Head math says the skullheads believe there are approximately 200,000 juicers on the continent.

Kingsdale has a transient, merchant, and juicer population of 2000-8000. Either they're swamped with rug salesmen or up to 4% of the juicer population is in Kingsdale at any time.

Head cannon says juicer basic training and post-op services are hosted there or nearby. Remember, each conversion takes time to complete, time to adjust to, and weeks before the body gets up to full speed and strength.

Beyond that, those kingdoms contracting for indentured juicers probably want them trained up in all those level one juicer skills, and maybe walking and behaving like soldiers. Better bet is those kings want those hyper-violent super-soldiers trained somewhere else, saving the kingdom the danger and hassle of teaching a nascent superman how to fly.

Thanks for the input!

free quebec is a major user of juicers as i recall, but i don't remember the numbers offhand. worth looking into that though.

Rifter11 wrote:So what city probably has more Juicers in it than anywhere else?

I'm guessing Kingsdale but what does everyone else think?

You likely are not going to find a definitive answer. A case could be made for MercTown, which is now a major medical and technological hub for Juicers and 'Borg conversions, or Free Quebec with the Liberty Reserve. To call a spade a spade, with the release of the CS Heroes of Humanity, the CS is now starting to embrace them as well; the CS may end up on that list as well.

I'm assuming we are more or less talking North America?

Depending on the date you are playing in all the big merc units have large numbers of Juicers in their host. Every city with a big merc presents would be in the running. Merctown, Kingdale, FQ, especially if you include Old Bones and things, but even Northern Gun would be in the running.

RockJock wrote:I'm assuming we are more or less talking North America?

Now that you mentioned, it does beggar the question of how much of a thing Juicer technology is in other parts of the world.
Is there any juicer variants in South America, Russia, Japan, China or Australia? What juicer we get in the NGR and its environs was at least in part a fruit of tech exchanges from Triax with north american powers, if memory tricks me not.

RockJock wrote:Depending on the date you are playing in all the big merc units have large numbers of Juicers in their host. Every city with a big merc presents would be in the running. Merctown, Kingdale, FQ, especially if you include Old Bones and things, but even Northern Gun would be in the running.

I would say that Kingsdale is on top up to the present, but Ishpeming and Manistique being the powerhouses of the independent military industry that they are, it's a matter of time before they try to leverage their economical edge into making up the gap. Or they could leave things as they are and try to dominate the borg conversion sector.

Same kind of goes for Free Quebec, though as a state i'd guess they might prefer to invest more in troopers without a built-in expiration date/death warrant.
The Coalition, for whom "throwing uneducated fools with hopes of gaining citizenship into the meat grinder" is base policy, would have far less scruples on this.

Though i can see the debacle of the Juicer Uprising making some of the higher-ups in the CS Military somewhat leery of providing Juicer conversion to random yahoos of debatable loyalty. Ironically, all the stories and rumours around the Uprising could also make most people not of the CS a little less trusting of any such offerings coming from the Deadboys, imho.

Well during the coalition war it could have been Tolkeen because that is where the JLA ended up.

Blue_Lion wrote:Well during the coalition war it could have been Tolkeen because that is where the JLA ended up.

Does that really count? They would be more an "army of exiles" joining the kingdom as allies, mercs or auxiliaries in the conflict than an actual standing army or branch of Tolkeen's armed forces, receiving resources, direct support, maintenance - and answering to - the king, his council or the warlords.


Unless i missed something specific in the War on Tolkeen or later books, that is.

ITWastrel wrote:The Big Book of Juicers page 133 says the coalition intended to wipe out 15-20% of the North American juicer population, killing 30-40 thousand juicers. Head math says the skullheads believe there are approximately 200,000 juicers on the continent.

Kingsdale has a transient, merchant, and juicer population of 2000-8000. Either they're swamped with rug salesmen or up to 4% of the juicer population is in Kingsdale at any time.

I've always felt the Rifts setting suffered from the utter lack of a Rug Salesman OCC.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:The Big Book of Juicers page 133 says the coalition intended to wipe out 15-20% of the North American juicer population, killing 30-40 thousand juicers. Head math says the skullheads believe there are approximately 200,000 juicers on the continent.

Kingsdale has a transient, merchant, and juicer population of 2000-8000. Either they're swamped with rug salesmen or up to 4% of the juicer population is in Kingsdale at any time.

I've always felt the Rifts setting suffered from the utter lack of a Rug Salesman OCC.

Well, if Jefferson Rockford, owner of the Ambassador Suites hotel in Merctown (pg.48) serves as indicator, merchants & vagabonds are two sides of the same coin.

As an aside, Rockford is one of the Merchants Association's three delegates to Proconsul Drago's Advisory Council, so, vagabonds rock.

Rifter11 wrote:So what city probably has more Juicers in it than anywhere else?

I'm guessing Kingsdale but what does everyone else think?

A quick skim though not all of my incomplete Rifts Library yields up:
The NGR has 12% of its population is involved with Juicer Technology (WB5 pg23/175), though I'm not sure on the population of the NGR at that point in time (it's in the millions IINM, so they have access to at least 120,000 per million).

Columbia (SA#1 pg21) has 150 Juicers. Juicers are noted as being available in South America as an OCC (WB6: SA).

Japan (WB8) has 2,500 Juicers working for H-Brand Corp (pg23), but the Republic of Japan has 889,200 Juicers (based on 6% of its population, the tech is illegal though). Ichto and other powers in the book did not include an OCC breakdown for their populations.

The CS (WB11 pg77) has 11,520 Juicers in 2 Army Divisions (is that per or total)

Psyscape has a population of 2,091 non-Psychic Men at Arms (based on 16% of the population being non-psychic and 17% of them being Men-At-Arms OCC), which could include Juicers so the number is lower but I don't know what the breakdown is.

City of Charity (WB14:NW pg61) has 535 Juicers

Federation of Magic has 945 Augmented Humans (includes Juicers) in the City of Brass (pg32), the Society of Sages has 40 Juicers (pg51) and Stormspire has 904 Juicers.

The Tundra Rangers have 300 Augmented Humans (Juicers AND Crazies in that total).

Free Quebec has 12% of its Military as Juicers (pg34), though I'm not sure how big FQ's military is off hand. Nor am I sure how many might be at Old Bones.

Ishpenning's Mercenary Army includes 7,000 Juicers, and Kingsdale's Merc Army includes 1,175 Juicers (both RUE pg30 and 26 respectively).

So it looks like world wide, the largest concentration of Juicers is in Japan (Republic of Japan) followed by NGR/Europe (who might actually precede them depending on their population size). In North America it looks the CS (WB11) has the largest population with 11,520 Juicers, though FQ might have more (12% of its military are Juicers, but I'm not sure on the total population size of their army) with Ishpenning's Mercenary Army coming in at a solid 3rd place.

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Well during the coalition war it could have been Tolkeen because that is where the JLA ended up.

Does that really count? They would be more an "army of exiles" joining the kingdom as allies, mercs or auxiliaries in the conflict than an actual standing army or branch of Tolkeen's armed forces, receiving resources, direct support, maintenance - and answering to - the king, his council or the warlords.


Unless i missed something specific in the War on Tolkeen or later books, that is.

Tolkeen also made juicers. But having the JLA join your nation could have made them the juicer capital. As I said could meaning their is a chance they where, not that it was a fact. Tolkeen cranked out allot of augmented solders besides just the magic forces.

Blue_Lion wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Well during the coalition war it could have been Tolkeen because that is where the JLA ended up.

Does that really count? They would be more an "army of exiles" joining the kingdom as allies, mercs or auxiliaries in the conflict than an actual standing army or branch of Tolkeen's armed forces, receiving resources, direct support, maintenance - and answering to - the king, his council or the warlords.


Unless i missed something specific in the War on Tolkeen or later books, that is.

Tolkeen also made juicers. But having the JLA join your nation could have made them the juicer capital. As I said could meaning their is a chance they where, not that it was a fact. Tolkeen cranked out allot of augmented solders besides just the magic forces.

To what degree? Because to my understanding of the books it was never a big part of their military apparatus as a mostly magic-geared society - lots of summons, weapon platforms in giant monsters, magical constructs. Juicers, crazies, T-people or similar things? That is not something i remember getting much in the way of representation in the War on Tolkeen or any other books that might have adressed the kingdom. So unless i missed some - and feel free to point them out - i'd say that my point still stands, a momentary one time boost in juicers numbers brought by allies & mercs involved with a one-time conflict does not a juicer capital on itself make.

That calls for actual investment and involvment, for citations and examples that indicate an effort on the Kingdom of Tolkeen's part to enhance a part of their ctitizens and supporters with augmentation processes, technological, magical, TW, psionic, other, in large numbers, something that, afaik, is sorely lacking of evidence in the books. Most i can remember is one of the Warlords (Thaddeus Grimm?) being a runaway one-of-a-kind symbiote-enhanced gladiator of the Splugorth - and no references to the tolkeenites trying to replicate the process in any way or form, because i sure looked into it as a potential plot hook. Otherwise i'd have to say i find it a far more probable prospect in more cosmopolitan/kitchen sink places like Lazlo and New Lazlo.

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Well during the coalition war it could have been Tolkeen because that is where the JLA ended up.

Does that really count? They would be more an "army of exiles" joining the kingdom as allies, mercs or auxiliaries in the conflict than an actual standing army or branch of Tolkeen's armed forces, receiving resources, direct support, maintenance - and answering to - the king, his council or the warlords.


Unless i missed something specific in the War on Tolkeen or later books, that is.

Tolkeen also made juicers. But having the JLA join your nation could have made them the juicer capital. As I said could meaning their is a chance they where, not that it was a fact. Tolkeen cranked out allot of augmented solders besides just the magic forces.

To what degree? Because to my understanding of the books it was never a big part of their military apparatus as a mostly magic-geared society - lots of summons, weapon platforms in giant monsters, magical constructs. Juicers, crazies, T-people or similar things? That is not something i remember getting much in the way of representation in the War on Tolkeen or any other books that might have adressed the kingdom. So unless i missed some - and feel free to point them out - i'd say that my point still stands, a momentary one time boost in juicers numbers brought by allies & mercs involved with a one-time conflict does not a juicer capital on itself make.

That calls for actual investment and involvment, for citations and examples that indicate an effort on the Kingdom of Tolkeen's part to enhance a part of their ctitizens and supporters with augmentation processes, technological, magical, TW, psionic, other, in large numbers, something that, afaik, is sorely lacking of evidence in the books. Most i can remember is one of the Warlords (Thaddeus Grimm?) being a runaway one-of-a-kind symbiote-enhanced gladiator of the Splugorth - and no references to the tolkeenites trying to replicate the process in any way or form, because i sure looked into it as a potential plot hook. Otherwise i'd have to say i find it a far more probable prospect in more cosmopolitan/kitchen sink places like Lazlo and New Lazlo.

Sot 6 list 3 places that provided augmentation, including juicer. Locations Expedition unlimited pg 202. The grand mall Pg 190 Tech tower had a hole floor dedicated to providing juicer and crazy augmentation. 190 (6 floors of store 30 floors for research offices, 3 floors to TW stores, 2 floors to bionics conversion 1 floor juicer and crazy conversion.)

The average level of juicers in the Tolkeen military was 4-8. While their is a focus on telling us about magic we know they have juicers the problem is we do not have a class breakdown of the mixed infentry or how many standard pilots are juicers. There is over 150K troops in mixed infantry as part of the CS Standing army. They are the same line as cyberknights that we know where a major force fighting for tolkeen but that could be just level.

(If just 2% of their army where juicers that would place 3K juicers in the Tolkeen military. No telling how many where just in town. But it could have been higher say 3-4% that would mean 6K juicers in their army average level 4-8.)

PG 47 of juicer uprising in the flavor text of TW juicers, Tolkeen and Kingsdale are called out for experimenting with would be juicers to create a superior Juicer. Two TW juicers exist. The dragon juicer made in Kingsdale and the Murder-wrath.(That would imply that the person that found out how to make murder-wraith was from Tolkeen does not prove it though, but it fits their by any means approach to war. )
PG 143 list several links to Tolkeen and 200K+ juicers as rumors and conspiracy theory. I would think they would be some what pro juicer for that sort of mind set to spread through the CS.

Seams you are asking for allot of proff based off bias, for this possibility than others. But it does seam that A Tolkeen did experiments with juicer tech and references of them doing so are equal to Kingsdale. B Tolkeen had multiple locations that could do juicer conversion. (I do not recall ever seeing juicers linked to Lazlo, but you would believe they are more likely to be it then a place with 3 conversion centers and called out as experimenting with TW juicers.

Do not get me wrong they did have a focus on magic but they also used tech soldiers. It is quicker to make a juicer than train a mage.