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Well, I was trying to help the Longbowman in our group with his damage output and it has been difficult. There are the Millennium Tree bows, which are incredibly rare, and there are the Everall bows from Greenbough in the Eastern Territory (p171) which do +3 to damage. There are also Yellow Wood arrows (page 42) which do +2 to damage.

Then I looked at the alchemist section more closely. On page 249 in the main book, top right, the "Magic Weapons" portion doesn't specify which weapon. But the bow/arrow combination is tough because the bow fires, but the arrow does damage. So, if you have a longbow enchanted with +1d6 damage, would that work? Or do the arrows need to be enchanted? That seems wrong. It seems like the bow being enchanted should increase the damage. But, since the yellow wood arrows do more damage, it does seem like the arrow can matter. The extreme would be to enchant arrows AND the bow and crank it up to 4d6, but that feels like stacking that shouldn't work. It's one or the other.

But what about other enchantments? If you slap Demon, Dragon, or Deevil slayer on it, does the arrow do double damage to the supernatural beast? Would a yellow wood arrow do double damage when fired from a magic longbow? Does the magic of the bow imbue the normal arrow with the magic? That seems to me like the right option. Otherwise, the arrows have to be enchanted. So, I think that the bow can make the arrows magic.

With that, what happens if a magic bow fires something like a cyclops arrow? Do they stack? Would a demon slayer longbow double the damage of a cyclops lightning arrow when attacking a demon?

-Vek
"Take a bow."

While I can't say for sure there are several new bows coming in a certain upcoming sourcebook I have never believed in
enchanting bows and then somehow the arrow fired from it becomes magical. That would suggest the bow turns the normal arrow
magical just because it touches the bow string. Why would it do that? If I place a coin on a magic sword, I can't sling the coin off
the blade and it becomes magical. If the bow spits lightning that one thing. But I just don't see extra damage, eternally sharp, etc
happening. Faerie Folk use magic arrows, now magic bows. Same thing with Cyclops, they don't make magic bows. To me the bow
and arrow are separate pieces of matter, so you need magic arrows to do magic damage. Magic arrows/bolts can be fired from a
normal bow/crossbolt. Of course, you'll probably want to retrieve those expensive magic arrows if you can.

Something that longbowmen lost (as far as I can tell) going to 2E was the increased critical hit chance. In 1E, their critical hit chance with the longbow became 18-20 at level 6. That might be something simple to add back into the class that would give a "passive" boost to damage.

I agree that it is the arrow that should be magical in order to do magic damage (e.g., +1D6, double to demons/deevils, etc.), not the bow.

I also agree that better-made or stronger bows should also be able to contribute to damage - and they do, as in your example from the Eastern Territory. I remember there is also a bowyer in Pallisade in the Western Empire who can make bonus-providing bows. There's one somewhere in the Old Ones book, too. Give your player the +3 longbow and some +2 yellow-wood arrows and that makes a reasonable +5 damage total.

The simplest way to increase damage for an archer is to purchase dwarven or kobold manufactured arrows. The tip of an arrow would count as a "blade", and dwarven bladed weapons can have up to +4 damage.

Also, dragon-bone arrows (Dragons & Gods, page 231) might be a good shout. Even the "ordinary" dragon-bone arrows do 3D6 damage.

Mass note: Grains are units of weight under the English scales. They are loosely equivalent to metric grams.

A few other ideas on improving the Potential Damage Output of a bow weapon:
-Poison/Toxin arrow heads (this can get expensive, especially if you miss)
-define how the magic damage works from pg249 to increase damage (opt1) so that it can work for Bows and melee weapons (personally I don't think the Arrows should become magically enchanted, it would put a damper on the magical arrow market)
-enchant it with Spits Fire/Lightning from pg249 multiple times (that would give you 9 "arrows" of increased damage per day), possibly requiring the firing a normal arrow
-Grodnelite Arrow Heads (Mount Nimro pg99, not sure if arrow heads are possible, I don't have the book) for exploding arrow heads
-customized version of Alchemist's Roman Candles (pg255) for exploding arrow heads (they RC can be used as an improvised weapon)
-construct a bow with higher-than-normal PS requirement (Megaveral Precent found in Rifts*) that improve damage
-BioMancy has an Energy Bow in Rifts (WB6 pg70, IINM also in the BoM), not sure if it was ported from PF or not
-Magical Long Bow Dirgannish (LotD2 pg15) that an NPC was gifted from some Elves in Lopan, could give ideas on possible enchantments known to work on bows (these are custom enchantments, I almost want to say its Rune/Holy, but the description doesn't indicate this category), you might also want to check for known examples of enchanted bows (megaversally or just in PF) to have a better mix/match
-use Rifts Techno-Wizard Construction Rules to construct a magical bow by an Alchemist (NPC might not have the PPE, though you could modify the result to better work w/o the PPE requirement)
-make a psionic Crystal Magic Bow Weapon (Island on the Edge of the World), possibly might not work for bow weapons (don't have the book and the NPC might not be psionic which would rule this one out)
-HOUSE RULE: the appropriate WP(s) or Class ability that would grant them additional damage at certain levels (precedent WP: Battle Axe, WP Pole Arm grant damage bonus at certain levels as do the various HTH styles). This could be a potential thorny issue among the players depending on how its handled and such (it's only an idea, not something I actually recommend)
-allow location-based damage to have side effects to be used in combination with called shots (off hand I don't know of anything remotely like this in PF2E, but Rifts and 1E RT have something to this effect including alteration to how damage is handled for head/heart called shots)

*

Veknironth wrote:With that, what happens if a magic bow fires something like a cyclops arrow? Do they stack? Would a demon slayer longbow double the damage of a cyclops lightning arrow when attacking a demon?

Honestly, I think I would go with not stacking of magic arrows with magic bows, you use one or the other to keep things simple. Because it could get messy if the target has vulnerability or resistances (even if only temporary) to factor in on top of the stacking damage (those vulnerabilities or resistances could also come via spell/psionic/item activation). Ex, the target has a resistance to fire damage and gets shot with a Bow that does double damage to the target's type (Slayer) plus fired a magical flaming arrow, what's the damage now: 1/2 damage from Fire and Slayer combined, 1/2 fire but *2 for Slayer? Or worse impervious to fire in the preceding example.

Veknironth wrote:Then I looked at the alchemist section more closely. On page 249 in the main book, top right, the "Magic Weapons" portion doesn't specify which weapon. But the bow/arrow combination is tough because the bow fires, but the arrow does damage. So, if you have a longbow enchanted with +1d6 damage, would that work? Or do the arrows need to be enchanted? That seems wrong. It seems like the bow being enchanted should increase the damage. But, since the yellow wood arrows do more damage, it does seem like the arrow can matter. The extreme would be to enchant arrows AND the bow and crank it up to 4d6, but that feels like stacking that shouldn't work. It's one or the other.

For simple increase to damage, I think it can easily apply to a bow; it just has to fire harder. Energy is speed * mass; increase the speed, you increase the energy imparted. Now, this should also increase range.

For my part, I don't mind "the bow makes the arrow magical", but I do not like "the bow makes the arrow magical, and the arrow is also magical, so you get to combine them."

Mark Hall wrote:

Veknironth wrote:Then I looked at the alchemist section more closely. On page 249 in the main book, top right, the "Magic Weapons" portion doesn't specify which weapon. But the bow/arrow combination is tough because the bow fires, but the arrow does damage. So, if you have a longbow enchanted with +1d6 damage, would that work? Or do the arrows need to be enchanted? That seems wrong. It seems like the bow being enchanted should increase the damage. But, since the yellow wood arrows do more damage, it does seem like the arrow can matter. The extreme would be to enchant arrows AND the bow and crank it up to 4d6, but that feels like stacking that shouldn't work. It's one or the other.

For simple increase to damage, I think it can easily apply to a bow; it just has to fire harder. Energy is speed * mass; increase the speed, you increase the energy imparted. Now, this should also increase range.

For my part, I don't mind "the bow makes the arrow magical", but I do not like "the bow makes the arrow magical, and the arrow is also magical, so you get to combine them."

Except sometimes in palladium when it doesn't, cough wall of stone and wall of iron dropping on people cough

I'm not set in stone for either, there are some bows that i allow the enchant from it to effect the arrow, and a lot i don't. Usually a case by case thing, but the magical bows i create say when they effect the arrow. (Magical modifiers to hit for example affect the arrow, except warbows when there are separate bonus for ranged and hth)

kiralon wrote:Except sometimes in palladium when it doesn't, cough wall of stone and wall of iron dropping on people cough

Look, no one ever said that Palladium mechanics made sense.

There are a lot of ways to improve damage and other stats for longbows:

1. Allow alternative styles of bow from the Compendium.
2. Allow special arrowhead designs. There is on in Western Empire that grants an extra D6 of damage.
3. Allow special arrowhead materials such as Black Metal fro D&G, black iron from Hinterlands, et cetera.
4. Allow special shaft materials like yellow wood from ET or stonewood from Hinterlands to increase damage.
5. Give a supply of special arrows like dragon bone arrows fro D&G, lightning arrows, or Scathach arrows from Rifts: England.
6. Allow for superior dwarf or kobold quality arrowheads for extra damage.
7. Enchant arrows using alchemy rules.
8. Use magic arrows from various Rifts books.
9. Use poisons (if evil) for extra damage or natural toxins (any alignment) to add some disabling options.
10. Use grodnelite arrowheads from Nimro for a kaboom.
11. Use custom-made bows.
12. Use a magic or rune bow. Are rune bows allowed?
13. Pick through various NPCs, gods, et cetera for special vows and give the character something like that, or possibly even that very weapon.
14. Allow some special training to augment the archer’s abilities or skills.

The easiest way is to just make bows work like they do in real life. If if a bow is made for the archer, their PS damage bonus is added.

The easiest, and one of the most common is the mundane bow with a damage bonus based on the archer's PS.

If you want to make up a magic bow that enchants any arrow it fires to be super sharp and inflict more damage you can - it's magic. Fill your boots!

Make it a holy weapon of Cirga.

As an alternative idea, rather than increasing the amount of damage done by a bow, try having the damage done by a successful strike from a bow/crossbow apply directly to HP. Traditionally, bow weapons revolutionized warfare by doing potentially lethal amounts of damage from a great distance. The English longbow was pretty much the king of the battlefield before firearms were invented, especially when fired en masse. Add in the fact that an arrow stands a decent chance of basically punching straight through any armor less than full plate due to its piercing nature and comparatively high velocity and, once hit, the arrowhead tears it's way into the victim's body, punching through skin, bone and whatever vital organs happen to be in the way. It's not uncommon for any archer worth his salt to drop a target with a single shot to a target, whether mortally wounding, crippling or even killing the victim. Ask any decent modern bowhunter how many shots they take on average to drop a buck. Of course that kind of shot is dramatically different from picking of a smaller moving target in the heat of combat, but the principle is effectively the same.

While not from a PF book, while reviewing the Rifts Book of Magic for something else I found a talisman that is intended for archers. On page 311 there is the "Eagle Claw Talisman" from the Inuit items list (IIRC that would be Rifts WB20 Canada) that would:
-a decent bonus to strike
-x2 RANGE and DAMAGE of a bow weapon
-Rifts specific but it will also do MD using an SD arrow to SN/Demon/"spirits", not sure how that would convert to PF

This converts, for the most part, nicely into a PF setting either as an import (via "dimensional travel" or even having its own home grown version).

Rifts Spirit West/BoM also has Native American "Fetish Magic" that has options for bows (weather this magic branch works for PF I'm not sure).

Hotrod wrote:There are a lot of ways to improve damage and other stats for longbows:

...snip...
7. Enchant arrows using alchemy rules.
..snip

So what sort of alchemic magic weapon attachments would you allow or invent for use in arrows?

Palladium Fantasy Title: Land of the Damned2: ET (pg169) has an example of a magic arrow (called the Dozen Arrows of Alainaan). It has 6x magic features called out (numbered list, 2x share a spot, and 1x more could be considered identified in the fluff but not on the list), and 3x of them can be found in some form on the generic Magic Weapons listing in the main book and one identified in the fluff description could be seen as coming from the Magic Armor table. The only two that aren't would seem to be specific to ranged weapons (increased range and striike bonus), though these could also be superior crafting bonus and use of materials (it is supposed to be solid metal).

Well, Megaversally speaking, if Rifts is any indication of magic arrow types:

Source Book 3 (pg76) establishes an option for Millennium Tree (Evil) artifact being an Arrow or Javelin. If Millennium Trees are part of PF setting, then...

World Book 2: Atlantis (pg153*) has (generic-type) magic arrows of: Globe of Daylight, Blinding Flash, Cloud of Smoke, Energy Bolt, Fire Bolt, and Paralysis: Lesser. It should be noted two of these effects are also on the Dragon Bone Arrows list found in D&G (pg231, Energy Bolt and Paralysis: Lesser)

World Book 8: Japan (pg38) has magic arrows (these seem less "magic" and more "tech" that is presented as "magic", like some items in PF2E Alchemist section IIRC).

World Book 21: Spyln Dimension Market also introduces the concept of Power Arrow Tattoos (also found in BoM)

World Book 26: Dinosaur Swamp has Eco-Wizard (relative of Techno-Wizardry) Cursed Arrows

Per Book of Magic (pg328-9), the Siege on Tolken Series (at some point) introduced Techno-Wizard Goblin Bombs that could also appear as Arrowhead options of Blinding Flash, Carpet of Adhesion, Extinguish Fire, Fear, Fire, Fuel Flame, Lightning, Orb of Cold, Smoke.

Techno-Wizard and Eco-Wizard Arrows might be something an Alchemist could duplicate.

*this is a generic Bow & Arrow section that gets reprinted a lot. SB1o (pg58, magic is not included), SB1r (pg51, possibly), Rifts WB5 (pg150-1), Rifts WB8 (pg118 has magic, but no list), and Rifts WB17 (pg186, possibly), if not more books I don't have.

Some things that you might try:

Mundane: A bow that lets you use your PS bonus to damage (perhaps up to a certain PS). However, lower-PS people cannot use it (as D&D's "Strength Bows"). Probably expensive and needs special woods or techniques... but I can also see the wolfen or ogres developing something like this.

Magical: Some simple arrow-enchantment spells... ones to make them burn, or turn them into long-range energy bolts, or something. Since the enchantment doesn't have to last long (only a couple minutes suffices), it can be relatively cheap to cast. I've got a few spells for Hackmaster that I made up as a partial joke... some spells made by a crossbow using gnome fighter/mage.

I could also see a "Psi-Archer"... not one who fires bolts of energy, but uses TK to help guide the arrows and give them more force. A variation of TK punch, but channeled through the arrow.

Library Ogre wrote:Mundane: A bow that lets you use your PS bonus to damage (perhaps up to a certain PS). However, lower-PS people cannot use it (as D&D's "Strength Bows"). Probably expensive and needs special woods or techniques... but I can also see the wolfen or ogres developing something like this.

Something like this already exists in Rifts in a few places (notably the Larhold aliens in SA2, Steeltree in Dinosaur Swamp), so the notion is not without precedent or examples to work with.

Library Ogre wrote:Magical: Some simple arrow-enchantment spells... ones to make them burn, or turn them into long-range energy bolts, or something. Since the enchantment doesn't have to last long (only a couple minutes suffices), it can be relatively cheap to cast. I've got a few spells for Hackmaster that I made up as a partial joke... some spells made by a crossbow using gnome fighter/mage.

Honestly, I've started to consider just using the Talisman Spell to enchant an arrow, you could only enchant it with one charge and it would discharge where ever it hits. Enchanted Spells would still have to make some amount of sense (ie an effect you could reasonably expect from an arrow strike, so no Animate & Control Dead for example).

Library Ogre wrote:I could also see a "Psi-Archer"... not one who fires bolts of energy, but uses TK to help guide the arrows and give them more force. A variation of TK punch, but channeled through the arrow.

This I don't think has been done as you are describing it. There are psychic and magic archers in Rifts (WB9 and WB21 respectively), but none do this. Are you thinking just an expanded application of an existing power (TK Punch) or a new power outright in terms of implementing?

ShadowLogan wrote:Honestly, I've started to consider just using the Talisman Spell to enchant an arrow, you could only enchant it with one charge and it would discharge where ever it hits. Enchanted Spells would still have to make some amount of sense (ie an effect you could reasonably expect from an arrow strike, so no Animate & Control Dead for example).

Maybe a variation, allowing you to enchant three arrows, all with the same spell, for that 500 PPE? But I was thinking something more akin to Flame Lick or Fiery Touch... a quick enchantment, to last for a combat, not something to carry around.

Library Ogre wrote:I could also see a "Psi-Archer"... not one who fires bolts of energy, but uses TK to help guide the arrows and give them more force. A variation of TK punch, but channeled through the arrow.

This I don't think has been done as you are describing it. There are psychic and magic archers in Rifts (WB9 and WB21 respectively), but none do this. Are you thinking just an expanded application of an existing power (TK Punch) or a new power outright in terms of implementing?

No, just a similar idea. You wouldn't be able to use TK punch this way, but you would use TK Shot (or whatever) to nudge the projectile on target, and give it that extra kick.

Library Ogre wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Honestly, I've started to consider just using the Talisman Spell to enchant an arrow, you could only enchant it with one charge and it would discharge where ever it hits. Enchanted Spells would still have to make some amount of sense (ie an effect you could reasonably expect from an arrow strike, so no Animate & Control Dead for example).

Maybe a variation, allowing you to enchant three arrows, all with the same spell, for that 500 PPE? But I was thinking something more akin to Flame Lick or Fiery Touch... a quick enchantment, to last for a combat, not something to carry around.

I thought you could elect to determine how many times you can charge it initially, but I guess I was wrong so that is out. I know Rifts has the Level 15 Wizard Invocation "Enchant Weapon: (Minor)", that for 400 PPE will enchant 48 arrows for 1month per level (perm. is an option, but costs more) though I'm not 100% sure on how the spell would convert to PF setting. In Rifts the Arrows are now MDC structures and do MD on impact (x2 SDC damage as MD).

Library Ogre wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Library Ogre wrote:I could also see a "Psi-Archer"... not one who fires bolts of energy, but uses TK to help guide the arrows and give them more force. A variation of TK punch, but channeled through the arrow.

This I don't think has been done as you are describing it. There are psychic and magic archers in Rifts (WB9 and WB21 respectively), but none do this. Are you thinking just an expanded application of an existing power (TK Punch) or a new power outright in terms of implementing?

No, just a similar idea. You wouldn't be able to use TK punch this way, but you would use TK Shot (or whatever) to nudge the projectile on target, and give it that extra kick.

TK Punch might not be appropriate I agree, but if going done the application route that would leave:
-TK (regular or Super)
-Mind Bolt (it is a force based power)
-TK: Acceleration Attack (Rifts power, in WB12 it's a regular Physical and in RUE IIRC it was upgraded to a Super, but it specifically sites hurling small objects include an arrow)
-almost want to suggest Teleport Object power, you use it to teleport the arrow just after launch so it has the most kinetic energy and it appears close to the target.

Of these TK: AA might be the most appropriate since that is what it already does, you're just adding some extra power with the Bow.

Kraynic wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:06 am Something that longbowmen lost (as far as I can tell) going to 2E was the increased critical hit chance. In 1E, their critical hit chance with the longbow became 18-20 at level 6. That might be something simple to add back into the class that would give a "passive" boost to damage.

Maybe some genius out there came up with a magic bow that increases crit range. The better the archer the more likely they are to hit something vital. Bow of Woe. Being me, I'd probably make it feed off a hit point from the wielder to activate this ability.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 12:38 pm

Hotrod wrote:There are a lot of ways to improve damage and other stats for longbows:

...snip...
7. Enchant arrows using alchemy rules.
..snip

So what sort of alchemic magic weapon attachments would you allow or invent for use in arrows?

As a player, I would choose Teleports to Wielder (for effectively infinite ammo), Indestructible (also for infinite ammo), and some kind of special effect on the target.

Arrow weapon enchantments/effects I would want in my quiver:
-Armor Piercing for high-AR targets
-Numbing Cold for the debuff effect
-Blinding Flash for the debuff effect (it would have to be on impact)
-Invisible weapon (for sneak attacks)
-Teleports Wielder: Ok, this would be a bit of a change from how the enchantment is written in canon, but it would be wicked cool to have an arrow that teleports a character to wherever it hits.

It could also be fun to incorporate some magic potion effects into arrows:
-Speed of the Snail
-Blind
-Mute (great against enemy mages)

Magic powders and natural toxins would also be great to apply to arrowheads.
-Fire arrows and magic fumes could also be fun.
-Chaser crystals might be viable as arrowheads for single uses.

Of course, raw damage is also very useful. Some effects I might want to get:
-Double Damage to Evil (probably the best overall, especially if the doubling includes damage bonuses)
-Demon/Deevil/Dragon Slayer for those specific foes (double damage to evil covers more categories, but this is ok too)
-Venomblade (if using poisons/toxins wasn't an option; is it evil to use a poisoned weapon? Narrative perspective says yes, I'm not so sure I'd be such an absolutist on it. I would like to see a version of this called Toxinblade that's more about disabling drug effects than straight-up-kill-you poison)
-Spits Fireballs/Lightning (If it can apply on impact and just add to damage dealt, otherwise no)


Most General damage bonus powers are nice, but not as nice as the previous damaging effects. I'd tier them priority-wise as follows:
1. Super-Sharpness: +4 damage and reduces critical strike dice roll requirements is almost as good as double damage, better if it's a short bow.
2. Additional Damage: Averages +3.5 points of damage, this will double the damage of an unmodified short bow.
3. Eternally Sharp: +3 to damage is nice, but a Kobold/Jotan/Dwarf edge can be better.
4. Infectious Wounds. It's actually kind of lame unless you really like long-term suffering, and even then a magic healing will take care of it (a la any priest's healing touch).