Another newbie question about - Saving Throws

[swest]

Greetings,

Can someone help me make sense of the myriad "save vs" references found in RUE? (and probably in the original Core Rulebook)

Here is the sorted, uniq'ed, list of references:

Code: Select all

save vs (various forms of mind control?)   save vs insanity                                save vs poison, drugs and disease
save vs all forms of mind control          save vs insanity and disease                    save vs poisons and drugs
save vs all psychic and mental attacks     save vs knockdown                               save vs possession
save vs an Anti-Magic Cloud                save vs magic                                   save vs possession and curses
save vs any battles of will                save vs magic and Horror Factor                 save vs possession and mind control
save vs coma                               save vs magic and illusions                     save vs possession and psionic attacks
save vs coma and death                     save vs magic and psychic attack                save vs psionic attack
save vs coma death                         save vs magic attacks                           save vs psionic attack and possession
save vs coma/death                         save vs magic illusions                         save vs psionic attacks and insanity
save vs coma/death                         save vs magic/poison                            save vs psionics
save vs curses                             save vs mind control                            save vs psionics and mind control
save vs disease                            save vs mind control (psionic and chemical)     save vs psionics, mind control and possession
save vs disease and insanity               save vs mind control and mind altering drugs    save vs psychic attack
save vs disease and poison                 save vs mind control and possession             save vs ritual magic
save vs drugs and poison                   save vs Neural Mace                             save vs spell magic
save vs Empathy                            save vs non-lethal poison                       save vs submission
save vs fatigue and disease                save vs pain                                    save vs Telemechanic Operation
save vs getting bowled over                save vs poison                                  save vs Telemechanic Possession
save vs Horror Factor                      save vs poison and disease                      save vs the magic of other sorcerers
save vs Hypnotic Suggestion                save vs poison and drugs                        save vs toxic gases, poisons, and other drugs
save vs illusions                          save vs poison or toxins                        save vs toxic gases, poisons, drugs and disease

Compare this to the, rather more limited, list of 'Saves' on page 346 of RUE:

Saving Throws: Occasionally, characters must roll to save against exotic attacks like poison, gas, disease, drugs, etc.

Curses: 15 or better.
Disease: 14 or better.
Lethal Poison: 14 or better.
Non-Lethal Poison : 16 or better.
Harmful Drugs: 15 or better.
Acids: No save possible - dodge!
Insanity: 12 or better (sometimes higher).
Magic: 12-16 depending on the power level of the spell caster. 16 or higher to save vs ritual magic.
Psionics:

6 or better for Psi-Stalkers.
10 or better for Master Psychics, including Mind Melters, Dog Boys and Bursters.
12 for Major & Minor Psychics.
15 for ordinary people and animals

Now, some of the correlations are obvious since they directly align with the wording of the p.346 list. Some of the correlations can be inferred, like "Psionics" == "psionic attack" == "psychic attack"...
But, others are neither obvious nor inferable (at least by me). For example, what are we supposed to make of:

save vs possession
save vs fatigue
save vs illusions
save vs toxins
save vs submission
etc.

This is just a partial list, of course, but hopefully you get the point of my question.

That's it for this post. If I haven't been clear, please ask and I'll clarify.

Thanks!

- s.west

[edit: p.s. My personal favorite is, "save vs getting bowled over". ]

[ITWastrel]

Pretty much, Palladium has resorted to adding bonuses to whatever the author felt like when writing each description.

Best practices would be to apply each bonus on a case by case basis, as every OCC / race combo will have its own set and there is absolutely nothing standardizing them.


It would be great if everything was organized and properly sorted, with a standardized rule set that all of the authors followed, but that's just not how things work at PB.

[guardiandashi]

Greetings,

Can someone help me make sense of the myriad "save vs" references found in RUE? (and probably in the original Core Rulebook)

Here is the sorted, uniq'ed, list of references:

Code: Select all

save vs (various forms of mind control?)   save vs insanity                                save vs poison, drugs and disease
save vs all forms of mind control          save vs insanity and disease                    save vs poisons and drugs
save vs all psychic and mental attacks     save vs knockdown                               save vs possession
save vs an Anti-Magic Cloud                save vs magic                                   save vs possession and curses
save vs any battles of will                save vs magic and Horror Factor                 save vs possession and mind control
save vs coma                               save vs magic and illusions                     save vs possession and psionic attacks
save vs coma and death                     save vs magic and psychic attack                save vs psionic attack
save vs coma death                         save vs magic attacks                           save vs psionic attack and possession
save vs coma/death                         save vs magic illusions                         save vs psionic attacks and insanity
save vs coma/death                         save vs magic/poison                            save vs psionics
save vs curses                             save vs mind control                            save vs psionics and mind control
save vs disease                            save vs mind control (psionic and chemical)     save vs psionics, mind control and possession
save vs disease and insanity               save vs mind control and mind altering drugs    save vs psychic attack
save vs disease and poison                 save vs mind control and possession             save vs ritual magic
save vs drugs and poison                   save vs Neural Mace                             save vs spell magic
save vs Empathy                            save vs non-lethal poison                       save vs submission
save vs fatigue and disease                save vs pain                                    save vs Telemechanic Operation
save vs getting bowled over                save vs poison                                  save vs Telemechanic Possession
save vs Horror Factor                      save vs poison and disease                      save vs the magic of other sorcerers
save vs Hypnotic Suggestion                save vs poison and drugs                        save vs toxic gases, poisons, and other drugs
save vs illusions                          save vs poison or toxins                        save vs toxic gases, poisons, drugs and disease

Compare this to the, rather more limited, list of 'Saves' on page 346 of RUE:

Saving Throws: Occasionally, characters must roll to save against exotic attacks like poison, gas, disease, drugs, etc.

Curses: 15 or better.
Disease: 14 or better.
Lethal Poison: 14 or better.
Non-Lethal Poison : 16 or better.
Harmful Drugs: 15 or better.
Acids: No save possible - dodge!
Insanity: 12 or better (sometimes higher).
Magic: 12-16 depending on the power level of the spell caster. 16 or higher to save vs ritual magic.
Psionics:

6 or better for Psi-Stalkers.
10 or better for Master Psychics, including Mind Melters, Dog Boys and Bursters.
12 for Major & Minor Psychics.
15 for ordinary people and animals

Now, some of the correlations are obvious since they directly align with the wording of the p.346 list. Some of the correlations can be inferred, like "Psionics" == "psionic attack" == "psychic attack"...
But, others are neither obvious nor inferable (at least by me). For example, what are we supposed to make of:

save vs possession
save vs fatigue
save vs illusions
save vs toxins
save vs submission
etc.

This is just a partial list, of course, but hopefully you get the point of my question.

That's it for this post. If I haven't been clear, please ask and I'll clarify.

Thanks!

- s.west

[edit: p.s. My personal favorite is, "save vs getting bowled over". ]

save vs possession
save vs fatigue
save vs illusions
save vs toxins
save vs submission
etc.

IMO these are what would apply
save vs possession ME save
save vs fatigue PE save
save vs illusions ME or IQ save (likely IQ based save IE you see through or pick up on an issue with the illusion
save vs toxins PE save its a form of poison
save vs submission this is a bit questionable as it could be a physical or mental save depending on the circumstances
etc.

[swest]

I'm currently engaged in an adaptation (another one?) of Rifts for use with a virtual table top. Having a collection of "Save vs X" buttons that will roll the Save, automagically apply any relevant bonuses, and produce the final value is desirable. However, without an organizing principle, there's no way to do that, and make it general and meaningful.

Also, there are a number of these (that can't be correlated to the list on p.346) that don't specify a TN. For instance on page 47, it states, "Combat CyborgslFull Conversion 'Borgs do enjoy a +5 bonus to save vs possession", however there is no statement of what the target number for a successful save is. What to do in such a case?

[Zer0 Kay]

I may be wrong or not understanding your question, but here goes.

Most of those save bonuses you list modify one of the basic saves. For example save vs. specific type of mind control is an add on to save vs. psionics when rolling against that specific type. So that OCC gets that bonus when testing against it but everyone else just has to roll save vs. psionics with whatever bonuses they have toward it. I don't remember but I thought save vs. possession was a type of magic save. So in your coding you have two layers one that has the basic rolls and then one that applies to those basic rolls in given situations.

[drewkitty ~..~]

An quote from my the char sheet I use to make my chars...

Saving Throws
Coma/Death:
non-lethal poisons/toxins (16):
lethal poisons/toxins (14):
diseases (14):
Spell magic (12-16 depending):
Ritual magic (16):
Faerie magic (16):
Circle magic [all](16):
ward magic (14):
Possession (contested rolls):
Psionics (10/12/15):
insanity (12):
horror Factor:
perception (target number):
pain (16):
soul Drinking (14):
Harmful drugs (15):
Extreme Heat/Cold (13):
Electrocution (14):

The typical save vs magic is vs the spell str. of the magic user casting the magic.
And the save vs Psi is dependant on the psionic ability of the target.

http://www.geocities.ws/kuseru/savingthrow.htm

The above link is the most complet list of saving throws I know of.

[swest]

Thanks for the responses. They have helped me to realize that I should have been a little bit more specific.

My task is to adapt Rifts, as codified within RUE, for this VTT adaptation.

So, I'm not looking to range far and afield for either additional material or for explanations of material found within the Rifts Ultimate Edition.

In other words, I'm looking for explanations that can be found, or justified, from within RUE.

Thanks!

- s.west

[swest]

I may be wrong or not understanding your question, but here goes.

Most of those save bonuses you list modify one of the basic saves. For example save vs. specific type of mind control is an add on to save vs. psionics when rolling against that specific type. So that OCC gets that bonus when testing against it but everyone else just has to roll save vs. psionics with whatever bonuses they have toward it. I don't remember but I thought save vs. possession was a type of magic save. So in your coding you have two layers one that has the basic rolls and then one that applies to those basic rolls in given situations.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll have to browse through the list again (as it occurs within RUE) and look at the individual contexts to make sure I get what you're saying.

- s.west

[The Beast]

I'm currently engaged in an adaptation (another one?) of Rifts for use with a virtual table top. Having a collection of "Save vs X" buttons that will roll the Save, automagically apply any relevant bonuses, and produce the final value is desirable. However, without an organizing principle, there's no way to do that, and make it general and meaningful.

Also, there are a number of these (that can't be correlated to the list on p.346) that don't specify a TN. For instance on page 47, it states, "Combat CyborgslFull Conversion 'Borgs do enjoy a +5 bonus to save vs possession", however there is no statement of what the target number for a successful save is. What to do in such a case?

Possession saves have their own rules and are found in Conversion Book 1 (and I think Dark Conversions) in the section on supernatural intelligences. IIRC, the save is actually opposing rolls between the victim and the aggressor.

As for the other saves that seem to be missing a target number, I'd look for what they closest fit and use that save target.

[ShadowLogan]

Now, some of the correlations are obvious since they directly align with the wording of the p.346 list. Some of the correlations can be inferred, like "Psionics" == "psionic attack" == "psychic attack"...
But, others are neither obvious nor inferable (at least by me). For example, what are we supposed to make of:

A few of the examples are just poor wording IMHO and fall under existing save system. Some of them might be defined in pre-RUE World Book/Source Books.

The rest seem be more situational. Example Possession can be magical or psionic in origin, so a bonus to save applies to those types of attacks be it magical or psionic.

Horror Factor's value is situational, various creatures/classes will set the HF target number, and situations IIRC there are tables for (CWC ?) that cover situations as opposed to monsters/classes.

Neural Mace target number is set by the Neural Mace Weapon.

Anti-Magic Cloud target number is found in the Spell description.

Telemechanic Possession/Operation the target number would be from the psionic powers specifically.