Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:17 pm**

Due to unusual circumstances, a Mind Melter obtained a functioning Glitterboy.

Mind Melter is trained in using power armor, but more importantly has the Super Psi power of Telemechanics.

While using telemechanics, at what bonuses does he use said Glitterboy armor?

The Glitterboy OCC entry states that only pilots are trained in the secrets of operation to full capacity, but the telemechanics power stipulates that they know everything about the device for the powers duration.

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:58 pm**

Telemechanics only gives basic piloting skill. There's a lot of physical training involved in using a glitter boy properly.

Basically all it does is give you the schematics in your head.

So try figuring out how to use an M1A1 Abrams tank just by looking at the schematics. You could figure out how to make it move and fire the gun with time to think and study. But you probably wouldn't do well in a tank battle, even if you had the schematics in front of you without blocking your line of sight.

In combat it is not enough to simply know everything about something. It has to be ingrained in muscle memory until you no longer have to think about it at all. There is no shortcut but months of practice.

Posted: **Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:07 am**

I'd count it as the skills Robots&Power Armor and Weapon Systems, the latter only for purposes of removing penalties as described in the former.

Posted: **Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:17 am**

nijineko wrote:Due to unusual circumstances, a Mind Melter obtained a functioning Glitterboy.

Mind Melter is trained in using power armor, but more importantly has the Super Psi power of Telemechanics.

While using telemechanics, at what bonuses does he use said Glitterboy armor?

The Glitterboy OCC entry states that only pilots are trained in the secrets of operation to full capacity, but the telemechanics power stipulates that they know everything about the device for the powers duration.

While the Telemechanics Power may grant the piloting skill (at 80% fixed), the psychic doesn't have the "muscle memory" to take full advantage of the suit covered by the Robot Combat: Elite skill.

What bonuses you get would be Pilot R&PA skill (or Telemechanics, whichever is higher) and RC: Basic Power Armor (which you have automatically from the pilot skill). Now if you have the skill RC: Elite (Ground Based Power Armor) or RC: Elite (Glitterboy) that would supersede the RC: Basic skill.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:44 am**

nijineko wrote:Due to unusual circumstances, a Mind Melter obtained a functioning Glitterboy.

Mind Melter is trained in using power armor, but more importantly has the Super Psi power of Telemechanics.

While using telemechanics, at what bonuses does he use said Glitterboy armor?

The Glitterboy OCC entry states that only pilots are trained in the secrets of operation to full capacity, but the telemechanics power stipulates that they know everything about the device for the powers duration.

This is all going to be based on a super-subjective interpretation of a key line within Telemechanics. It's a loophole, one I wish was more clearly defined, but hey, maybe in the next version. Telemechanics (from RUE), the second paragraph is all that really matters. "I must stress the psychic knows everything about the machine; the complete schematic diagram and operational knowledge (emphasis mine) are clearly seen in the mind's eye."

Despite my initial balk at the idea of a Mind Melter now throwing down against a protagonist from within a GB, the power can certainly be interpreted to include bonuses. My personal interpretation would be limited to (at best) Robot Combat: Basic for bonuses; the defining paragraphs for RC: Basic and Elite support that level of limitation.

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:11 pm**

There's a big difference between knowing how to pilot the armor and knowing how to effectively combat others while doing so.

Telemechanics gives you the former. You have a complete and perfect understanding of how the armor and its subsystems work, and you can pilot it with perfection.

What you don't learn is that if you corkscrew your fist as you make contact with your opponent's shoulder joint, the added torque causes significantly more damage. Or that if you take a certain stance while firing your boomgun, it'll not only help reduce the recoil but also give you a stronger jumping off point if you have to take off in a run immediately after. Things like that; little tricks, tips, and tactics that you've picked up from your extended training and experience while using the power armor. That's what skills like Robot Combat Elite bring to the table; things that Telemechanics doesn't.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 pm**

desrocfc wrote: the complete schematic diagram and operational knowledge (emphasis mine) are clearly seen in the mind's eye."

This part.

Imagine if your grandad suddenly KNEW how to use Microsoft WORD. They still cant type at 1000 words per minute.

I might KNOW how to use a gun. My aim would be poor as Ive never fired one.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:46 pm**

In the situation presented in the OP, the MM using TM would ONLY boost the char's piloting skill % to 88%. Nothing else.

That is the Only bonus listed in the TM psi power.

To be some sort of master psi GB pilot would require writing up a whole new PCC for it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:27 am**

I wish you the greatest of luck on you adventure and please have a great time, I am cheering you on!!!!!

Just enjoy playing the character. You could trade it for a massive amount of credits. You could keep it and have fun with it.

Only downside you would be in power armor and there are some abilities you cant use while inside.

Any more questions we are usually kicking around.

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:07 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:To be some sort of master psi GB pilot would require writing up a whole new PCC for it.

O.C.C. P.C.C.s don't exist anymore.

That would be an interesting idea though, even if not aimed directly at Glitterboys. I know there's Psi-Techs who are basically just masters of Telemechanics, which isn't quite the same thing. Perhaps some kind of psychic version of a Phaeton Juicer aimed exclusively at piloting power armor would be cool. Hrm.

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:25 pm**

I said things correctly.

Because the class would be for master psychics it is correctly called a PCC.
That PB has decided to incorrectly call PCCs something other than what they are in the rifts game is no matter to me.
The only time you would hear me say a PCC is something other than a PCC is when it is also a RCC that the primary component of the RCC is the race's psychic powers.

PB had a chance to correct its mislabeling of the Rifts PCCs as RCCs in the original books, with the edition change. But it failed to do so when it just change to a different mislabeling.

Am I a bit OCD? Yes.
Note: a part of being OCD is being stuborn. So aguments on this subject will fail to change my correctly calling PCCs PCCs.

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:51 pm**

That's nice. You can do whatever you like, but you'd still be objectively wrong as RUE clearly changed them to O.C.C.s despite your protests. And as far as I know, they've been fairly consistent about that since RUE. At least I can't think of any 'new' P.C.C.s since then.

Posted: **Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:23 am**

objectively PCCs are still PCCs even though in rifts they have the incorrect label.
You can pout all you want PCCS are still objectively PCCs even if, in the rifts game, they have been disguised as something else because munchkins cried and moaned so hard that PB gave into their crocodile tears.

You assertions that they are not, even though when they are looked at objectively they are, means that you need to increase your critical reading skill.

Warning: Warning for Flaming/Flamebaiting (Rule 2 violation)

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:01 am**

What a strange hill to die on.

Particularly since you're discussing this particular topic in the Rifts subforum, in a thread asking about the Rifts Mind Melter O.C.C. piloting a suit of Rifts Glitterboy power armor in the Rifts setting using the Rifts rules for the Rifts super psionic power Telemechanics. You may have noticed a common theme there. But in case you didn't, it's that it's all about Rifts where—and despite all personal preferences and objections—P.C.C.s have been phased out in favor of making them O.C.C.s. since the publication of the RUE rules. Which isn't an opinion. Which isn't debatable. It's an objective fact.

And as an aside, there's only one person pouting in this thread about being corrected regarding a minor mistake (intentional as it was), and it isn't me...

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:49 pm**

Crimson Dynamo wrote:P.C.C.s have been phased out in favor of making them O.C.C.s. since the publication of the RUE rules. Which isn't an opinion. Which isn't debatable. It's an objective fact.

Yup.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:54 pm**

Objectively....Master Psionic Character Classes are PCCs....Psychic Character Classes.
Not a Job char class. Duhhhh :rolleyes:

Even IF they're Called something else because of Stylistic Mislabeling.
Note: PB did Stylistic Mislabeling in the RMB too, so it was nothing new to have to work around.
--
Why do I insist this? Because I am able to see around the pandering to munchkins carp and able to understand what the text really means. And since I know what it mean, I am not going to pander to any munchkin by saying it is anything other than what the class Is.
-----------
This is an old argument that started ages ago. As I've implied above and said before, the choice PB made to not just use the PCC and RCC labels correctly was just stupid.
------------
Then there is the aspect that ALL the current canon generalized Published Changing Class Rules in the PB game system are in the PF2 game, and how PCCs are forbidden from being change from, or being changed to, keeping the PCC designation keeps Master psionics from other games from changing their class willy nilly.
[Yes, Yes, there are those optional CCRs/UDs Posted in the CRF. They are only posted, not published in a PB Gamebook. Until there is a Published change, there hasn't been any real changes. PB has had about a decade to include the optional rules they posted. So I guess they don't really what them to be official.]
----
Yes, I do have a house rule that allows PCCs to change their class. For game reasons they loose their psi powers permanently. In other words...they don't have the abilities that lock them into their PCC anymore.

Warning: Warning for Flaming/Flamebaiting (Rule 2 violation)

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:30 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Objectively....Master Psionic Character Classes are PCCs....Psychic Character Classes.

Not according to the rules of Rifts, no.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:46 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not according to the rules of Rifts, no.

Exactly.

I can't for the life of me fathom why he refuses to admit that, then just say he prefers to keep P.C.C.s in his homebrewed version of the game. Especially since ten seconds later he prattles on about how he uses house rules for his frankly bizarre take on the whole thing anyway.

That said, I'm completely baffled by how he keeps calling the redaction of P.C.C.s something that's just there for "munchkins," and implies that it was some kind of colossal typo. I mean, just... what? XD I'm guessing his whole mental breakdown over it has something to do with changing classes or something? You know, those rules that don't actually exist in RUE save for very specific circumstances (such as becoming a 'Borg or undergoing detoxification as a Juicer), and which have very specific requirements and very specific limitations attached to them.

When it comes down to it, if it's something you're born into, is instinctual, and/or distinguishes you from other races, then it's an R.C.C. And if it's something you can train in, learn, and develop with further training--even if it requires you to be born with certain traits--then it's an O.C.C. Dog Boys, for example, should have been a race/R.C.C., with their O.C.C. abilities (including most of their more training-based traits) coming from an actual O.C.C. that they'd have the option to take, similar to the Space Wolfen and the Wolfen Quatoria O.C.C. in Phase World. Same for Psi-Stalkers. Every other psychic O.C.C. in RUE is just fine as an O.C.C.

The fact that Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers can take other O.C.C.s just drives that fact home. Just like the fact that multiple races and R.C.C.s can choose to take most psychic O.C.C.s. No dual-classing required.

There's just no need for any other classifications. It's absolutely nonsensical, nevermind that for Reasons™, it only applies if the author arbitrarily decided you were a "master psychic" instead of a major or minor one. Because, you know, it's fine to learn and develop psychic powers as part of any other class (such as a Psi-Operator, Cyber-Knight, or Mystic), even if you're granted super psionic powers, but only as long as the author didn't call you a master psychic. Again, for Reasons™. Oh, and even better, it's apparently honky-dory if you use the completely unofficial rules for dual-classing to become one of the aforementioned classes (nevermind any number of extremely powerful O.C.C.s like Temporal Wizards or Astral High Lords), but god help you if you're interested in becoming a Burster or something. Because, you know, Reasons™.

It's so absurd on every level.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Objectively....

To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I do not think [that word] means what you think it means."

objectively, adv. in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:00 pm**

Crimson Dynamo wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Not according to the rules of Rifts, no.

Exactly.

I can't for the life of me fathom why he refuses to admit that, then just say he prefers to keep P.C.C.s in his homebrewed version of the game.

I dunno either, but he's been this way for years, probably over a decade.

He's not likely to change his spots now.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:56 pm**

I think I am missing something from the conversation. In RMB psychics are all RCCs. As far as I remeber PCCs are only in Beyond the Supernatural.

As for changing them from RCC to OCC RCCs just stopped making sense. Lots of species can now be bursters or mind melters. Now I do not understand why Dog Boys aren't still an RCC but that is a minor thing.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:44 pm**

Warshield73 wrote:I think I am missing something from the conversation. In RMB psychics are all RCCs. As far as I remeber PCCs are only in Beyond the Supernatural.

Greetings and Salutations. They're technically in Palladium Fantasy and Nightbane as well. The term P.C.C. also showed up (on occasion) in Rifts (such as the Psi-Slinger P.C.C. in RWB14: New West). There may be some other settings, but I didn't feel like going through each setting just for this side topic. Of course, at least in PF2 (I won't speak for all game lines without going through each one by one), P.C.C. was just a sub-category of O.C.C. So you get to select an O.C.C., and that O.C.C. could be an O.C.C. (yes, again, a sub-category of the main category), R.C.C., or P.C.C.

Now I think the issue of some people (if I recall correctly) is that O.C.C. stands for Occupational Character Class. If the character does not make a profession of the training, then it's not an Occupational class. Now, this is how Palladium describes the term (at least at times). So, at face value, a psychic may not be their profession. However, there's two main flaws with this logic.

1: Even many Men at Arms O.C.C. aren't their actual occupation. As an example: the 'Borg, Crazy, and Juicer are not a method of making money, but augmentations that could allow the character to make money in other ways (the same way psychic powers would). However, unless the character is a living lab experiment or something, simply having those augmentations is not a job the character is being paid.

2: Some P.C.C. actually do describe the character's job. As an example: the Psi-Healer (PF2) actually tends to describe the character's job. This would mean as long as my Psi-Healer is making money from being a Psi-Healer, then it is my profession and thereby now an O.C.C. Note: On the other hand, if you were a Preacher (RWB14: New West) and NOT taking money whenever you preach, then it would cease to be an O.C.C.

Note: The above points, of course, don't go into the fact that some people also incorrectly blame RUE for classifying P.C.C. as O.C.C., when PF2 (and possibly others before that as well) classified them as a type of O.C.C.

Warshield73 wrote:As for changing them from RCC to OCC RCCs just stopped making sense. Lots of species can now be bursters or mind melters. Now I do not understand why Dog Boys aren't still an RCC but that is a minor thing.

Sorry, I digressed a bit above. So to try and clarify the matter, since RUE (and I can't guarantee they've been consistent, as I haven't checked) is ...

O.C.C.: If you are trained.
R.C.C.: If you are born knowing these talents and skills.

Psychics are trained, both in skills and developing their powers, so they're a type of O.C.C. Dog Boys are trained (at the very least) in their skills. This is why you can have the classic Coalition trained Dog Boy, the Sea Dog (RSB4: Coalition Navy) and I believe there's a Free Born Dog Boy in one of the books. Additionally, Dog Boys (the race) can learn to be other classes as well. So the Dog Boy O.C.C. has a racial requirement (Dog Boy race), but is still trained/learned.

Dragons, on the other hand, come out of their shells with their knowledge. All Dragon Hatchlings are born with similar skills (those provided by the R.C.C.), and is not trained. They instinctively know how to use any of their natural powers. Other races such as Faeries and maybe some Demons/Deevils may also fall into this type of category. However, the term R.C.C. should be less frequently used than in the past.

Note: In the past, R.C.C. was used in a variety of ways. At times it meant Race, or Playable Race, or O.C.C. with a Racial Restriction, or Psychic, or some other possibilities that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. So the goal of RUE was to try and use the term consistently.

Well, hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:17 am**

EDIT: When I said that 'objectively the Mind Melter Class is a PPC' this means that I've read the class text and what label and recognized there is a conflict between the two. When there is a Conflict between the class text says it is and the label put on the class, to be objectively correct the class text must take precedent of any label put on the class.

As to something else, I never said that the RMB or RUE didn't have the labels they put on those the MM class. In fact I have to acknowledge what labels were put onto them to say the labels on them are wrong.

Mind melter....Asking three simple questions honestly get you to what it is.

Is the Class a Racial class?.....No
Not a RCC

Is it a Job Class?....No
Not an OCC.

Is it a Psychic Class?....yes
It is a PCC.

fin
-------------
@ Warshield
➜The RMB PCCs (the mind melter and burster) are all mislabeled as RCCs. yes. Which PB didn't "fix' with RUE. They just used the other Wrong class label.
☞[There are some Psychic classes correctly listed as PCCs in the Psyscape Rifts game book. I was hoping that with this books things would change in rifts. Sadly I was disapointed.]
➜BTS Labeled all its classes as PCCs...but they were all (except maybe the Arcanist) Psychics. But the BTS classes are more like the HU power cat's in that they only deal with the Char's powers.
☞[Yes there was a listing for 'normal people' but they were not presented as a Class.]
➜The PF2 game lists their job classes as OCCs and Racial classes as RCCs and Psychic Classes as PCCs.
➜ATB2 doesn't have CCs but most of character templates are other elements in them other than job skills.
➜HU has power cats, which like BTS PCCs only cover the char's powers/abilities.
☞[Note that both BTS and HU have an Education formate for getting the char's skills.]

➜There was never a 'racial limitation' about who could be a Mind Melter or Burster in rifts. They can be of any race that has psychic potential.
What ever point you were trying to make is moot because these two are PCCs.

➜There has always been a problem with the way PB wrote things. That being that they kept calling races RCCs when what was presented was...A Race with its associated RCC. Which just added to the confusion people complained about. The RMB Dob-Boys listings was just the 1st example of this type of stupidness.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:52 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Is it a Job Class?....No
Not an OCC.

That's not how things work.
If Palladium said "wearing a hat" is an OCC, then it IS within the context of this game.
If Palladium said that "owl" is an OCC, then it IS within the context of the game.
The moment you contradict how Palladium applies Palladium-created terms within the context of a Palladium-created game, you are incorrect.

If you want to define game terms, write your own game and define terms there; you don't get to do that with Palladium.
It's not your company, not your game, and not your term.

You can say all you want that "it doesn't make any sense for Mind Melter to be a PCC" or whatever gripe you have; that's fine.
You're free to have opinions about how Palladium does things.
But being in denial about how Palladium does things just makes you incorrect.

➜The RMB PCCs (the mind melter and burster) are all mislabeled as RCCs. yes. Which PB didn't "fix' with RUE. They just used the other Wrong class label.
➜BTS Labeled all its classes as PCCs...but they were all (except maybe the Arcanist) Psychics. But the BTS classes are more like the HU power cat's in that they only deal with the Char's powers.
[Yes there was a listing for 'normal people' but they were not presented as a Class.]
➜The PF games lists their job classes as OCCs and Racial classes as RCCs and Psychic Classes as PCCs.
➜ATB2 doesn't have CCs but most of character templates are other elements in them other than job skills.
➜HU has power cats, which like BTS PCCs only cover the char's powers/abilities.
[☞Note that both BTS and HU have an Education formate for getting the char's skills.]

Hold on.
Aren't YOU the dude who's always claiming that each Palladium game line is an entirely different game with its own rules, and that you can't just port in rules from one game into another because they're all different systems?
Or am I thinking of somebody else...?

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:43 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Mind melter....Asking three simple questions honestly get you to what it is.

Is the Class a Racial class?.....No
Not a RCC

Is it a Job Class?....No
Not an OCC.

Is it a Psychic Class?....yes
It is a PCC.

fin
-------------

The Mind Melter is an OCC. Because the book says. If your homebrewing due to logic that's up to you but that's not RAW.

If you struggle with inconsistencies across games lines (especially minor ones) then Palladium Books aren't for you.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:09 am**

The Dark Elf wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Mind melter....Asking three simple questions honestly get you to what it is.

Is the Class a Racial class?.....No
Not a RCC

Is it a Job Class?....No
Not an OCC.

Is it a Psychic Class?....yes
It is a PCC.

fin
-------------

The Mind Melter is an OCC. Because the book says. If your homebrewing due to logic that's up to you but that's not RAW.

If you struggle with inconsistencies across games lines (especially minor ones) then Palladium Books aren't for you.

NOT that I want to get into this mess.

But it does depend on WHERE AND WHEN one looks at the Mind Melter-Class if it is considered an OCC (RUE) or a RCC (RMB-era). Off hand though I'm not sure if the Rifts-line has even used the PCC-categorization found in Palladium Fantasy, but I do know of several Classes that have psychic powers that are considered OCCs or RCCs, and some of them might be considered psychic focused like the Mind Melter (SB3's Ecto-Traveler OCC for example) but not classified as PCC.

So in the interests of Megaversal unity, it might be best to think of PCCs and a sub-type of OCCs since there is indication that you do "train" to use your psychic powers (Cyber Knight, Amaki Duelist Class, Opening of the 3rd Eye in Psycape, etc) just like you do for magic.

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:52 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
➜The RMB PCCs (the mind melter and burster) are all mislabeled as RCCs. yes. Which PB didn't "fix' with RUE. They just used the other Wrong class label.
➜BTS Labeled all its classes as PCCs...but they were all (except maybe the Arcanist) Psychics. But the BTS classes are more like the HU power cat's in that they only deal with the Char's powers.
[Yes there was a listing for 'normal people' but they were not presented as a Class.]
➜The PF games lists their job classes as OCCs and Racial classes as RCCs and Psychic Classes as PCCs.
➜ATB2 doesn't have CCs but most of character templates are other elements in them other than job skills.
➜HU has power cats, which like BTS PCCs only cover the char's powers/abilities.
[☞Note that both BTS and HU have an Education formate for getting the char's skills.]

Hold on.
Aren't YOU the dude who's always claiming that each Palladium game line is an entirely different game with its own rules, and that you can't just port in rules from one game into another because they're all different systems?
Or am I thinking of somebody else...?

Now remember I was responding to Warshield's post, so remember the CONTEXT of what my response was to.
1st point....remember that I call PCCs PCCs even if they are mislabeled as something else. No Exceptions.
And since he said something factually incorrect by omission (I don't think it was intentional, just based on inaccurate text in RUE), Most of my response I was doing was an informational post to fill in the omissions that were made. In other words listing by game how the different games differ from each other. And Showing that BTS is not the only game using the PCC label.
(note I did leave out of the quoted text that RIFTS actually did use the PCC label correctly in the Psyscape gamebook. But I mentioned that earlier in this topic.)

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:26 am**

Occupation.....is just a long word for a 'Job'.
As such an OCC is a 'Job Char Class'.

I am OCD about WORDS.
Which why I hate the choice PB made to contenue to mislabel PCCs in Rifts. As Job Classes instead of Racial Classes now.

As such your "arguments' by saying "the book says it's an OCC" is useless. Objectively the Mind Melter is not a Job class, nor is it a Racial class. But Objectively it IS a Psychic Class. And I do not call a PPC other than the PCC that it is.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:15 am**

Palladium gets to choose their naming scheme, whether or not you agree with it. Their product, their naming scheme. That is not "incorrect", they can, in fact, call it whatever they want, and change it tomorrow if they so desire, and whatever they change it to, regardless of what you think or whether or not you agree, it will still be correct.
Harping on this false notion that you somehow have the authority to call Palladium wrong in what they decide to do, to the vast derailment of threads is harmful to the community.
You can disagree, but that does not make Palladium 'incorrect' or otherwise wrong in this regard.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:34 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
➜The RMB PCCs (the mind melter and burster) are all mislabeled as RCCs. yes. Which PB didn't "fix' with RUE. They just used the other Wrong class label.
➜BTS Labeled all its classes as PCCs...but they were all (except maybe the Arcanist) Psychics. But the BTS classes are more like the HU power cat's in that they only deal with the Char's powers.
[Yes there was a listing for 'normal people' but they were not presented as a Class.]
➜The PF games lists their job classes as OCCs and Racial classes as RCCs and Psychic Classes as PCCs.
➜ATB2 doesn't have CCs but most of character templates are other elements in them other than job skills.
➜HU has power cats, which like BTS PCCs only cover the char's powers/abilities.
[☞Note that both BTS and HU have an Education formate for getting the char's skills.]

Hold on.
Aren't YOU the dude who's always claiming that each Palladium game line is an entirely different game with its own rules, and that you can't just port in rules from one game into another because they're all different systems?
Or am I thinking of somebody else...?

Now remember I was responding to Warshield's post, so remember the CONTEXT of what my response was to.
1st point....remember that I call PCCs PCCs even if they are mislabeled as something else. No Exceptions.
And since he said something factually incorrect by omission (I don't think it was intentional, just based on inaccurate text in RUE), Most of my response I was doing was an informational post to fill in the omissions that were made. In other words listing by game how the different games differ from each other. And Showing that BTS is not the only game using the PCC label.
(note I did leave out of the quoted text that RIFTS actually did use the PCC label correctly in the Psyscape gamebook. But I mentioned that earlier in this topic.)

There are no PCCs in Rifts, though.
That's you choosing to port stuff in from other games, then expecting other people to agree with your house rules.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:37 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I am OCD about WORDS.

Yeah, I get that.
I have my own areas where stuff hits me wrong, makes me mad.

And the fact that people are even arguing with you about this is because, I suspect, those of us responding each have our own OCD tendencies compelling us to tell people when they're wrong about something.

Which why I hate the choice PB made to contenue to mislabel PCCs in Rifts. As Job Classes instead of Racial Classes now.

It's not mislabeling.
It's them using a definition that you don't approve of.

Think of it like Grapenuts.
It's not grapes.
It's not nuts.
But that doesn't mean it's not Grapenuts.
The person who made the word up gets to define it.

Ask a pineapple, or a Guinea pig.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:47 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I am OCD about WORDS.
Which why I hate the choice PB made to contenue to mislabel PCCs in Rifts. As Job Classes instead of Racial Classes now.

As such your "arguments' by saying "the book says it's an OCC" is useless. Objectively the Mind Melter is not a Job class, nor is it a Racial class. But Objectively it IS a Psychic Class. And I do not call a PPC other than the PCC that it is.

That's cool. That also doesn't change a thing. You're still wrong, period, end of discussion. Your opinion on the subject (which is literally what 'subjective' means) doesn't mean a thing when discussing Rifts and its rules as written. You are not the definitive (or any other) authority on the subject.

And again, is there some reason why you can't just admit both that and the fact that you prefer to homebrew it otherwise in your games? Why's that so hard for you? Especially when you're constantly throwing around other house rules you use left and right, even in this very thread? That's what's throwing everyone. It's absolutely bizarre.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:27 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:[
The person who made the word up gets to define it..

Fine go fine the person that made up the words you are talking about.
Remember that OCC RCC and PCC are not words.

This is as far as I'm going here.
Any further arguing should be directed between yourselves.

Posted: **Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:35 am**

If a psychic is using his powers to earn a living then being psichich is his job.

What is the job of a mind melter in a party?
To use their mind melter powers powers to fight and assist the party. That is how a mind melter earns its keep.
So being a mind melter is the occupation of a mind melter. -The Mind Melter might have the skill pilot X, but their main job is use of their power and driving is just an extra duty.
So the break down would be.
Is Mind melter an occupation
Yes
Is Mind melter a race?
-No/
Is Mind melter Psionic?
Yes.

Why would occupation trump Psi in rifts?
Most likely because when they wrote many races including conversions that could be most classes they said O.C.C. any. That means many D-bees who should be able to be a mind melter would not. It was easier to just reclassify Psionics classes as Occupational class than to go back and update scores of D-bees. (and lets face it PB editing will go with the least amount of work choice.)

Same applies to augmented characters.
What is the job of a Juicer in party?
To us its Juicer augmented abilities to fight.

Honestly the only reason R.C.C. are not listed as a O.C.C. is you do not get that player that wants to play a human with the O.C.C. dragon hatchling. After all the way a dragon earns its keep is being a dragon, so being a dragon is its occuaption.

Regardless of how we feel about the label system by the rules in rifts Mind melters are an O.C.C.

Posted: **Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:43 pm**

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Telemechanics only gives basic piloting skill. There's a lot of physical training involved in using a glitter boy properly.

Basically all it does is give you the schematics in your head.

So try figuring out how to use an M1A1 Abrams tank just by looking at the schematics. You could figure out how to make it move and fire the gun with time to think and study. But you probably wouldn't do well in a tank battle, even if you had the schematics in front of you without blocking your line of sight.

In combat it is not enough to simply know everything about something. It has to be ingrained in muscle memory until you no longer have to think about it at all. There is no shortcut but months of practice.

It takes a 22 week course to be an M1 tank crew member.

Posted: **Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:36 pm**

Sounds like all the has fallen into a rabble, I would love to hear more about the base question. Good Luck MY Friends!

Posted: **Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:30 pm**

boxee wrote:Sounds like all the has fallen into a rabble, I would love to hear more about the base question. Good Luck MY Friends!

I'd let him have the bonuses of Robot Combat: Elite (or RC: Glitter Boy, or whatever the appropriate skill is), but he wouldn't get any Glitter Boy Pilot OCC bonuses. I think Telemechanics is supposed to be that awesome. The machine just does what you want it to do. It's basically a superpower.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:25 pm**

Glitter Boy pilots are highly trained experts in Specific Use of the Glitter Boy. Even a Robot expert or User do not have the Special Training a Glitter Boy pilot does. The Glitter Boy Pilot O.C.C. makes the distinction that man and machine are one.

Telemechanics allows you to pilot any power Armor or robots but I'd say basic simply out of the fact that you can use a sword but to use it through training and practice like an expert who has years of experience with a sword isn't going to happen overnight. If you can touch a sword any of them it does not make you a sword master. Same with power Armor and Robots.

The other thing you need to watch out for is that psionics are limited inside a Glitter Boy. Unless you need the extra firepower or plan on spending skills you are just like anyone else in using power Armor or a Robot for the first time.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:21 pm**

Technically, a sword is a wedge, a kind of Simple Machine, and Telemechanics gives you 80% proficiency with machines, so…
Of course, not sure how that translates into a strike bonus.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:56 pm**

That's actually a decent point that helps explain things.

Nearly everything that has a physical form and can move is a machine to one degree or another. An ink pen, for example, is a machine and Telemechanics would technically give you 80% proficiency to use it. But what it doesn't give you is 80% proficiency to compose a poem, forge someone's name, or write in a language you don't know.

The same thing is going on with piloting power armor/robots. You know how to use it, but you don't know all the tricks and techniques that experienced, highly-trained pilots have learned and developed. So you'd get Pilot: Robot and Power Armor, but you wouldn't get any of the Combat: Basic (which I thought made sense earlier, but this argument has swayed me) or Combat: Elite skills, because the psionic power isn't teaching you how to fight, only how to pilot the armor and use its basic functions. Those skills have nothing to do with the basic functionality of the armor or robot, and instead reflect combat training learned by the pilot themselves. So while you could fight in it, you wouldn't get any special bonuses to do so, beyond those you already possess.

Just like you wouldn't get Roadwise or Combat Driving when you used the power after hopping into an automobile. You'd get things like Weapon Systems, Sensory Equipment, and Navigation if the vehicle had the appropriate systems, but that's about it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:59 am**

Crimson Dynamo wrote:That's actually a decent point that helps explain things.

Nearly everything that has a physical form and can move is a machine to one degree or another. An ink pen, for example, is a machine and Telemechanics would technically give you 80% proficiency to use it. But what it doesn't give you is 80% proficiency to compose a poem, forge someone's name, or write in a language you don't know.

The same thing is going on with piloting power armor/robots. You know how to use it, but you don't know all the tricks and techniques that experienced, highly-trained pilots have learned and developed. So you'd get Pilot: Robot and Power Armor, but you wouldn't get any of the Combat: Basic (which I thought made sense earlier, but this argument has swayed me) or Combat: Elite skills, because the psionic power isn't teaching you how to fight, only how to pilot the armor and use its basic functions. Those skills have nothing to do with the basic functionality of the armor or robot, and instead reflect combat training learned by the pilot themselves. So while you could fight in it, you wouldn't get any special bonuses to do so, beyond those you already possess.

Just like you wouldn't get Roadwise or Combat Driving when you used the power after hopping into an automobile. You'd get things like Weapon Systems, Sensory Equipment, and Navigation if the vehicle had the appropriate systems, but that's about it.

sort of

I would explain it a different way.

you mentally know how everything works at 80+% all systems how to operate it etc.
what you don't have is the "muscle memory" that moves you beyond operation to instinct

another way to look at it would be lets use the example of the original Karate Kid. the kid was trying to tech himself Karate from a book at a certain level it works you can learn all the stances, moves, Katas, etc. that way and have the equivalent of the most basic (white belt) maybe even a bit higher, what you will NOT have is the training and reactions to apply it without thought. IE someone punches or kicks at you and you automatically counter the attack by parrying, dodging or blocking or parry, counter strike combos. and that is where you graduate to the various levels of black belt in some traditions which are the "high" experts

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:51 am**

I don't think most people would argue that Telemechanics directed towards an energy pistol would grant a W.P.. So it is with power armor: temporary knowledge of how to operate the machine is gained, but that's wholly independent of bonuses in combat. Or, as I first posted, it would effectively grant Pilot Robots & Power Armor and Weapon Systems, but with the latter only removing penalties and not granting any bonus,

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:27 am**

So, if I'm following the general consensus and understanding correctly, operating the suit itself, its' controls, overriding safeties, and other non combat shenanigans would be at the Telemechanics granted level. Actual combat would require and default to any combat skills the character may have, yes?

New question, I've noticed that it was mentioned multiple times that many psionics could not be used from within a GB... does anyone have a book and page reference for that? I think it would be amusing to run around with a GB sized Psi blade and Psi force field....

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:14 pm**

nijineko wrote:So, if I'm following the general consensus and understanding correctly, operating the suit itself, its' controls, overriding safeties, and other non combat shenanigans would be at the Telemechanics granted level. Actual combat would require and default to any combat skills the character may have, yes?

New question, I've noticed that it was mentioned multiple times that many psionics could not be used from within a GB... does anyone have a book and page reference for that? I think it would be amusing to run around with a GB sized Psi blade and Psi force field....

I don't remember EXACTLY where it is, but there was a blurb about psionics not working well (or at all) through a certain level of armor, I want to say its somewhere around the heavy MDC body armor, power armor where its iffy, and if the unit has a reinforced pilots compartment almost all psionic abilities do not work into or out of the unit. with that said telemechanics psionic possession and psi ghost type abilities are targeting the suit so they absolutely WOULD work.

now if a user wanted to use things like psi sword and psi shield COULD be made to wok, but I would require essentially some techno wizard type enhancements to essentially build conduits and focus crystals into the suit. so that the user can cause the psi sword to be generated in the glitter boy suits hand and NOT in the pilots hand which would be BAD for understandable reasons

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:09 pm**

guardiandashi wrote:
nijineko wrote:So, if I'm following the general consensus and understanding correctly, operating the suit itself, its' controls, overriding safeties, and other non combat shenanigans would be at the Telemechanics granted level. Actual combat would require and default to any combat skills the character may have, yes?

New question, I've noticed that it was mentioned multiple times that many psionics could not be used from within a GB... does anyone have a book and page reference for that? I think it would be amusing to run around with a GB sized Psi blade and Psi force field....

I don't remember EXACTLY where it is, but there was a blurb about psionics not working well (or at all) through a certain level of armor, I want to say its somewhere around the heavy MDC body armor, power armor where its iffy, and if the unit has a reinforced pilots compartment almost all psionic abilities do not work into or out of the unit. with that said telemechanics psionic possession and psi ghost type abilities are targeting the suit so they absolutely WOULD work.

now if a user wanted to use things like psi sword and psi shield COULD be made to wok, but I would require essentially some techno wizard type enhancements to essentially build conduits and focus crystals into the suit. so that the user can cause the psi sword to be generated in the glitter boy suits hand and NOT in the pilots hand which would be BAD for understandable reasons

RUE pg 366 - environmentally sealed vehicle such as tank, apc, giant robot, or power armor with 250 MDC or more for main body

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 6:17 pm**

Part of my job is operating a "hi-lo" forklift. A "hi-lo" is a kind of forklift where you stand with a 360* ZTR and a joystick for the forks. I'm a basic novice, while some of my contemporaries can swivel, square-up, and raise/lower the forks all while moving in 'at speed.' They've been doing it for years while I've been at it for ~6months. They have the equivalent of Advanced Power Armor: Elite while I have a low percentage of Basic.

I'm much better with the standard sit-down forklift; just because you can pilot one form of power armor doesn't mean you can fully operate a specialized suit.

I may allow an unskilled person to SLOWLY move the armor and use basic features. They may even have to do operations one-at-a-time instead of as a continuous movement; stop, deploy pylons, acquire your target, aim, and fire. It may take all your actions in the round. Even then, in the heat of combat and haste to fire on their target, they may forget to activate pylons or how to perform a vital function.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 10:48 pm**

Blackwater Sniper wrote:Part of my job is operating a "hi-lo" forklift. A "hi-lo" is a kind of forklift where you stand with a 360* ZTR and a joystick for the forks. I'm a basic novice, while some of my contemporaries can swivel, square-up, and raise/lower the forks all while moving in 'at speed.' They've been doing it for years while I've been at it for ~6months. They have the equivalent of Advanced Power Armor: Elite while I have a low percentage of Basic.

I'm much better with the standard sit-down forklift; just because you can pilot one form of power armor doesn't mean you can fully operate a specialized suit.

I may allow an unskilled person to SLOWLY move the armor and use basic features. They may even have to do operations one-at-a-time instead of as a continuous movement; stop, deploy pylons, acquire your target, aim, and fire. It may take all your actions in the round. Even then, in the heat of combat and haste to fire on their target, they may forget to activate pylons or how to perform a vital function.

the thing is there are some functions that are specifically noted as automatic.

in the case of the glitter boy, the anti sway pilons, and recoil thrusters are noted as automatically engaging when the glitter boy goes to fire the boom gun.
I always read that as (if you look ) the arm (hand) grabs a trigger that deploys from the gun, and as you start to squeeze the trigger at ~1/2 trigger the pilons deploy, at 3/4-90% the thrusters engage at 100% pull the gun fires.

now fireing on the move, the pilot has to trigger the retraction of the pilons at a reasonable moment.
.but just firing or standing and delivering so to speak IE standing there and just firing the boom gun, boom, boom, boom, boom etc is pretty basic, its all the other things and tricks like using the thruster enhanced jumps, or overriding the pilons and firing and dealing with the recoil THATS where the combat training comes in

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 10:29 pm**

In the Mechanoids sourcebook, Hagen gets bonuses to pilot his robot and power armor whilst using Telemechanics. I always assumed this applied to others in similar situations. Psi-Techs also get piloting bonuses, and their Teleme Hanoi’s power is always on. I’m not sure if those bonuses are the same; I haven’t compared the two.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 7:41 am**

Hotrod wrote:In the Mechanoids sourcebook, Hagen gets bonuses to pilot his robot and power armor whilst using Telemechanics. I always assumed this applied to others in similar situations. Psi-Techs also get piloting bonuses, and their Teleme Hanoi’s power is always on. I’m not sure if those bonuses are the same; I haven’t compared the two.

Re: Hagen
That is a special situation. Per the fluff text "Furthermore, the armor and bot are designed to take advantage of his telemechanics power in a new way."-SB2 pg20 (background fluff text at start of the HPA Mk 1 PA entry). IMHO this indicates the PA is working with the TM-power on a more advanced level than an ordinary TM-link.

The Psi-Tech's #4 ability (Mental link to 'bots, PA, vehicles), the bonuses here are inferrior to the Archie examples (pg23 &. Archie's system in conjunction with TM grants 2APM, Psi-Tech only gets 1 and Pull Punch is 3 vs 2. The Psi-tech though has bonuses that Archie's system does not grant like initiative, piloting, and improved movement rates.

It's also worth noting that the Psi-Tech's Telemechanic ability is regarded as an "enhanced from of the super psionic ability.", which I think would lead to the conclusion that the Psi-Tech's bonuses could be in part derived from that "enhanced form" and not part of the regular power.

Forums of the Megaverse®

Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy

Re: Question: Mind Melter using Glitterboy