Forums of the Megaverse®

Regarding immunities/impervious to damage, what does plasma count as? fire or energy?

cbrekkas wrote:Regarding immunities/impervious to damage, what does plasma count as? fire or energy?

both and more. plasma and particle beam weapons basically get around most resistances.

plasma is sometimes described as "super napalm" so yes its "fire" but its so hot that it vaporizes instead of burning SDC materials

it specifically notes you can't roll with punch fall or impact to avoid plasma damage, from the notes and comments in various places it seems like Kevin uses them as "levelers" to remind players that everything can be hurt, and is not immune to everything

Plasma is Fire.

Fire is energy.

There are no rules for it having any kenetic damage.

Two plasma-related questions:

1) What sort of WP normally covers the use of plasma weapons? Heavy MDC or Heavy Energy?

2) Also, does plasma count as fire for some of the Burster's abilities, like the one covering making fires more intense and increasing their damage? Because if so then a Burster with a plasma weapon can be a nasty problem to face.

ardashir wrote:Two plasma-related questions:

1) What sort of WP normally covers the use of plasma weapons? Heavy MDC or Heavy Energy?

2) Also, does plasma count as fire for some of the Burster's abilities, like the one covering making fires more intense and increasing their damage? Because if so then a Burster with a plasma weapon can be a nasty problem to face.

1) Depends, are you firing a plasma rifle, or a plasma grenade/mini-missile launcher? Former is Heavy Energy, Latter is Heavy Military.
2) The primary problem is you can't take two actions at the same and the damage is instant and then over. You fire, that's your action. You cannot fire AND boost at the same time, it's one or the other. Any more than you can fire your plasma rifle and also throw a fire bolt at the same time. two seperate actions, both require a turn.

You could have your burster have a buddy with a plasma rifle he goes around boosting.

Plasma generally is counted as energy. some settings (like HU) allow plasma to partially bypass some abilities that are normally immune or resistant to energy weaponry. but even in those setting, that is a feature of the specific abilities rather than a general rule. (for example, invincible character take 1/2 damage from plasma, even though pretty much no other non magical or non psionic damage can harm them. but most spells that give protection from energy weapons don;t have that feature)

in some settings Plasma does overlap a bit with fire damage, in the sense that in those settings there are abilities that normally protect from fire, which also give partial protection from plasma. this does not make plasma a type of fire damage though (a burster takes reduced damage from plasma because their fire abilities say so. but if you shoot a scarecrow with a plasma rifle it still does nothing, because scarecrows are immune to everything but actual fire.) note that it is common for posters here on the board to have houseruled this aspect, and forgotten they have done so. by the rules, plasma and fire are separate damage types.


as far as the WP.. this is a common flaw in palladium's books, that they don't specify which WP weapons use. most plasma weapons that exist are heavy weaponry, comparable to bazookas, machineguns, or the like. and would use WP heavy energy. but there are some plasma weapons that are smaller and clearly should fall under Energy pistol or Energy rifle, respectively. (like some of the kittani and mechanoids stuff) just use your best judgement.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Plasma generally is counted as energy. some settings (like HU) allow plasma to partially bypass some abilities that are normally immune or resistant to energy weaponry. but even in those setting, that is a feature of the specific abilities rather than a general rule. (for example, invincible character take 1/2 damage from plasma, even though pretty much no other non magical or non psionic damage can harm them. but most spells that give protection from energy weapons don;t have that feature)

Not quite, it's Particle beams that deal 1/2 damage to Invunerable characters: Plasma has no special rules in HU.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Plasma is Fire.

Fire is energy.

There are no rules for it having any kenetic damage.

Plasma is not fire.. Plasma is too hot to burn. Plasma is a third state of matter that breaks down the molecular structure of substances. I believe it "burns" at least 8000 degrees celcius.

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Plasma is Fire.

Fire is energy.

There are no rules for it having any kenetic damage.

Plasma is not fire.. Plasma is too hot to burn. Plasma is a third state of matter that breaks down the molecular structure of substances. I believe it "burns" at least 8000 degrees celcius.

Correct.

But in game terms it counts as fire damage.

Plasma is a state of matter, NOT an energy type; yes it might be called a "damage" type in Rifts, but it does damage through energy transfer.

Fire is a chemical reaction that releases thermal energy (and a few other types of energy including light). (grossly simplified because no one wants to read a three page physics lecture on what fire is - no, fire is not plasma and plasma is not fire.)

What energy does plasma release? Well it generally requires thermal energy and thus also radiates a lot of thermal energy but it is releasing electromagnetic energy. A plasma cutter melts (through thermal energy) but it is using electrical energy to create the thermal energy in a conductive substance. Note, I have no idea how a "plasma" ejector works in Rifts; given the range something is going on current science doesn't really cover (see below).

Lasers emit photonic (light) energy however that light energy is turned into thermal energy when they hit something. Yes, a laser can travel through space and cause heat when it hits something. While the thermal energy of say a fire will not travel through a vacuum.

Here's the point: energy transfer causes damage, not the thing itself. Fire doesn't "do" the damage - the thermal energy can. Plasma doesn't "do" damage - the thermal / electrical energy does. Plasma ejectors are either more electrical than thermal based - BUT then they would only damage conductive materials. Or they are shooting "blobs" of super heated plasma which damage through thermal energy.

So is "fire" a type of energy? No, thermal energy is and IMHO anything that makes you immune to thermal energy (and remember the psionic Impervious to Fire - specifically calls out heat, fire, boiling water, hot coals; not just 'fire') will make you immune to anything that damages through thermal energy - INCLUDING lasers, plasma weapons, flamethrowers, magic fires, lava, and so on. YES, I am aware most people will follow the books and say lasers are "different" and don't count as fire, but honestly you are much better stating plasma is different than lasers are different.

So, at the end of the day it is up to you.

Note I have not met anyone who rules Immune to Energy, protects you from kinetic energy, because the spell specifically says physical attacks do normal damage.

Please note not meant to be a physics lesson, just explaining why I use the house rules I use.

Rifts is, like, the polar opposite of a game where "realism" has any place.

Energy.
If for some reason something needs you to be specific: Pure Energy.
But for game mechanics. I have no interest in the physics debate.

cbrekkas wrote:Regarding immunities/impervious to damage, what does plasma count as? fire or energy?

Rulewise, plasma counts as mega-damage fire, which also falls under energy as a whole. discussing things in terms of physics with palladium stuff is an invitation to madness and that freeloader hasn't payed me the back rent yet.

I really dont agree with anyone who thinks that plasma should be considered energy for rifts purposes. I have never read anything that would grant a resistance or immunity to fire which discluded plasma damage from being reduced or ignored. In the example above for the transferrence of energy is what does damage, then I would argue that anything physical mass at all would also be considered kinetic energy as the damaging factor and as such (by the above rationality) would be reduced or ignored by having a resistant or immunity to energy.

Sorry I used impervious to energy so the kinetic energy transfered to my body when being shot with a rail gun does no damage to me and the ammunition falls to the ground once it hits me.

I do want to add that I was completely dumbfounded when someone educated me that (as per the FAQ & Errata) that lasers are considered "energy" instead of heat based damage. Meaning demons that are immune to fire and heat still take full damage from lasers despite the fact that lasers burn and cauterize.

I was watching some videos on Halo Lore when this video on Halo Plasma Weapons popped up and it got me thinking about this thread. The mechanics of plasma weapons in Halo canon, which is not necessarily reflected in the game play, work the same as in a lot of current sci-fi properties. Superheated gas, magnetic field, the usual.

Rifts in particular, PB in general, has rarely been that specific but it is not alone. This video on Fallout 4 plasma weapon really covers how, for lack of a better term, unrealistic almost any plasma weapon is. Some of the best parts of the video are the power requirements and what the close-range effects of this weapon would be. A more, again I hate this word for a game, realistic version of such a weapon might be more along the lines of a EM Plasma Rifle .

For Rifts specifically I just have a few points:

1-RUE, page 358 has really great description of what most high-tech weapons would do.

2-When it comes to magic, supernatural, and superpowers I don't think you can apply real physics or even logic. If a spell protects against plasma and not lasers that is just magic. I have had countless discussions at a gaming table from someone who thinks that they should be able to tune a laser to do damage to a vampire. Its magic, that is all you need.

3-The problem is technology like Thermo-kinetic armor which doesn't seem to take into account the actual physics. But as the Fallout video shows many of these weapons may not even be possible.

When considering the issue of plasma in Rifts it might also help to consider the method of delivery. A Plasma Warhead is described as "concentrated, liquid heat, ten times hotter than normal napalm" (RMB pg42). Now this text was dropped in RUE in the equivalent section (pg362-3) so it might not be viable anymore, but here it also specifically calls out "Also note that creatures resistant or impervious to fire and heat are unharmed by plasma weapons, while other M.D. explosives will hurt virtually all living beings with the exception of ghosts and enteral beings (including most Entities)" (end of paragraph at the bottom of pg362 second column). Which would seem to answer the OPs original question: Plasma counts as Heat/Fire.

From (psuedo?) Science perspectivr, fire is composed of the super-heated gaseous products of combustion. The damage it causes is basically the result of heat. Whereas plasma is any material that has been heated to the point that the electrons of its atoms become dissociated from their nucleia. Which (just guessing here) means plasma would do damage from both heat (much hotter than fire) and from the havoc of free electrons and free radical nucleia surging over the target. Heat damage sounds like fire, more or less, the electron cloud could be electricity, and the free radical nucleia would function similar to free hydrogen nucleia in acid.

So, for simplicity sake, you could treat plasma damage as 1/3 fire, 1/3 electricity and 1/3 acid.

EliBenedict wrote:From (psuedo?) Science perspectivr, fire is composed of the super-heated gaseous products of combustion. The damage it causes is basically the result of heat. Whereas plasma is any material that has been heated to the point that the electrons of its atoms become dissociated from their nucleia. Which (just guessing here) means plasma would do damage from both heat (much hotter than fire) and from the havoc of free electrons and free radical nucleia surging over the target. Heat damage sounds like fire, more or less, the electron cloud could be electricity, and the free radical nucleia would function similar to free hydrogen nucleia in acid.

So, for simplicity sake, you could treat plasma damage as 1/3 fire, 1/3 electricity and 1/3 acid.

actually real plasma doesn't have any stray electrons floating around, instead its atoms that are missing electrons and so is agressively trying to take electrons from everything around it which CAN cause other materials to break down or otherwise disrupt molecular bonds.

guardiandashi wrote: actually real plasma doesn't have any stray electrons floating around, instead its atoms that are missing electrons and so is agressively trying to take electrons from everything around it which CAN cause other materials to break down or otherwise disrupt molecular bonds.

Friend, per Britttanica:
"Plasma: in physics, an electrically conducting medium in which there are roughly equal numbers of positively and negatively charged particles, produced when the atoms in a gas become ionized. It is sometimes referred to as the fourth state of matter, distinct from the solid, liquid, and gaseous states. The negative charge is usually carried by electrons, each of which has one unit of negative charge. The positive charge is typically carried by atoms or molecules that are missing those same electrons."

Though I will admit I used the wrong terminology ("free radical nuclei") to refer to the electron-stripped atomic nuclei ("cation" was the term I was trying to think of.) But, given the reference I made to acids, it should have been clear I was referring to the same concept you described as "atoms that are missing electrons and so is agressively trying to take electrons."

The other point, of course, is that there are other ways of creating plasma besides super-heating plasma, but, from context in Rifts, I think it's a solid bet Rifts weapons use the super-heated variety.

sorry if I was somewhat unclear as well.

when you create plasma you apply heat and energy to a variety of atoms (or a bunch of atoms of the same element) to the point that the electrons from the atom are disassociated (removed) from the atom and pump it many energy levels/states which is arguably "raw" plasma.
when you weaponize it IE manipulate the plasma into a weapon attack that raw plasma is going to be a serious pain to work with, so you would want to separate it into 2 "sets" of material the positively charged atomic nuclei IE the hydrogen (proton, deuterium proton and neutron, the tritium, or whatever element you are using as "fuel" ) and the negatively charged "free" electrons. you would then project or "throw" them at a target as either a proton bolt, ion bolt, or somehow create a hybrid bolt
otherwise the energy is going to be extremely hard to work with and or manipulate meaning the range is going to be pitiful even with the "round" traveling at a significant speed

Rifts uses futuristic science that is so far beyond what we know today, that it seems impossible, even stupid at times.
Roll with it.

Plasma is heat and energy.
Lasers are energy, but not heat.
Hardwood is good for home construction, and softwood is good for campfires.
It has been written.

Mechanically in rifts it is fairly well defined.
Plasma counts as fire.
Fire counts as energy.

Thus Plasma mechanically counts as both fire and energy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Rifts uses futuristic science that is so far beyond what we know today, that it seems impossible, even stupid at times.
Roll with it.

Plasma is heat and energy.
Lasers are energy, but not heat.
Hardwood is good for home construction, and softwood is good for campfires.
It has been written.

Very true. But I still get a kick out thinking about it sometimes. When Rifts Ultimate Edition came out I was taking high schools physics. I remember running the numbers on thr Glitter Boy, based on the published stats and schematics.

If I recall correctly, I surprised to find out it was sort of plausible. Sort of.

If you assume the boom gun's slug, as pictured is something like solid tungsten, accelerating it along the length of the boom gun up to mach 5 would actually accelerate a 1.2 ton robot backward up to a speed of about 5mph, but only if it were in a weightless vaccuum. On earth, ground friction would slow it down pretty quickly. Add in the oppositional force of a jet system with enough force to hold the GB aloft, and the GB handily stabilizes itself without need for pylons.

If I recall, there was an upward limit of how many shots the friction and jet resistance could counter, but it was something like five shots per second, about 75 shots per melee round.

The sonic boom wasnt nearly as devastating as advertised, though.

Good times.

Regarding plasma, i agree that fludi dynics would severly limit with undifferentiated plasma would limit its use as a long range weapon. It would be more like a flame thrower. Separating the electrons and nucliea would present another problem though. Repulsive electromagnetic pressure would cause the proton cloud to want to explode outward in every direction.

If there was someway to separate, then contain the super-heated protons inside an EM shieleded casing, you could fire it at the target (like a standard rifle round), whereupon it would burst open, delivering the heat and electron-hungry nucleia. Then, once it hit, you could release the separated electrons, which would immediately fly toward the protons that had been released on the target. Like a piloted lightning strike.

With utmost sincerity, "plasma" is probably more of a layman's term than a technical one. In much the same way a lightsaber in Star Wars is occasionally called a "laser sword" even though it's anything but. Or how we use "clips" when the technical term for them is "magazines."

Despite the enjoyment that comes from it on occasion, it's honestly best not to think too hard about Rifts (or Palladium Book's games in general) when it comes to realism or even believability. They're silly, over-the-top games.

cbrekkas wrote:Regarding immunities/impervious to damage, what does plasma count as? fire or energy?

Talking about the "Plasma Warhead" of missiles.
Fire
---------
Any arguments that Fire is also Energy is munchkinis'ing, and should be ignored.