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So, its been years since I thought about Rifts with high priority. BUt Ive been thinking lately with the Minion War...what is the status of the CS Navy? I seem to remember it was destroyed in the war with Free Quebec? But I cannot find that reference anywhere. I wonder if it was just my old group's storyline? Any help?

The CS Navy more or less split with 1/3 to 1/2 of it defecting to Free Quebec.

IIRC there was some skirmishes, but both forces chose to preserve their strength isntead of fighting sustained battles of attrition.

And, don't forget, they have a military base bigger the Houstown within missile distance of Houstown.

Still salty about that.

sweet, makes sense. thanks guys

Kagashi wrote:So, its been years since I thought about Rifts with high priority. BUt Ive been thinking lately with the Minion War...what is the status of the CS Navy? I seem to remember it was destroyed in the war with Free Quebec? But I cannot find that reference anywhere. I wonder if it was just my old group's storyline? Any help?

It has been a number of years since I even thought about the CSN but giving SB4 a quick read I think most of your answers are probably in there. In total I only found relevant information on the CSN in:
-SB 4 the CS Navy
-WB 22: Free Quebec

I checked the following books but found no relevant information:
- Rifts Aftermath
- WB 23: Xiticix
- WB 31: Triax 2
- WB 35: Megaverse in Flames
- Heroes of Humanity
- CS Manhunters

Now the cool thing about CS navy is that it gives a lot of specific information (like an order of battle and ship names and specific numbers of types of ships) and it was written after the split with Free Quebec. You can see this with ship names so I had always assumed the order of battle was just for the CS and did not include FQ.

I could not find any references for the destruction of the CS fleet, or even specific units.

Jefffar wrote:The CS Navy more or less split with 1/3 to 1/2 of it defecting to Free Quebec.

IIRC there was some skirmishes, but both forces chose to preserve their strength instead of fighting sustained battles of attrition.

I could not find a specific figure of how much naval assets went to FQ but it did specifically say no carriers, only 1 large sub, only a few large surface ships (cruisers and destroyers) and no aircraft. With this in mind I think it is easiest to look at this on an asset by asset basis instead of a blanket fraction.

First a few basic assumptions:
1) CS Naval construction is likely to continue at stated levels until the CS is attacked in the Minion War, so December 109.
2) There is no mention of new base construction in any books so they are unlikely to have built new bases from 104 PA to the end of 109 PA. If they did I would say no more than one or two small bases.
3) It seems far more likely that the CSN would increase the size and defenses of existing bases, in my game I went 5% to 10%.
4) Given the outcome of the war with FQ and the continued alliance with the NGR it seems likely that the base at Halifax would be brought up to full strength.
5) Personel: It seems likely that as the number of ships increases the CSN would increase in size as well. Again in my game I said about a 10% total increase by the middle of 109. So about 84k up from 76k.
6) Equipment and light vehicles: To me it seems likely that most of the equipment in SB 4 is still in general use. I think it likely that at least the CSN Infantry would get a few new toys from the recent minion war stuff. In my game I also let them have a few Triax naval items as well given the alliance and the CS assistance during Sea Storm. Overall I assume the same 10% increase in power armor and light vehicles.
7)Navy Aircraft: This is complicated but I tend to assume the number of 875 only goes up to about 885 or 890 but with the following caveats based on the descriptions in SB 4:
- Sea Strikers increase a lot
- Shrikes it says 1 squadron per carrier, so in the book that should be 4 but they only had 3. I assume they would have one squadron per carrier and I even give them one squadron for Pinnacle and Halifax for defense and training.
- Dagger Bombers are tough as it says 12 for each JP CVN and 8 for each CT CVN of which there are now 3. It also says that there are no plans to increase the number of squadrons per carrier before 110 PA. So I assume just 16 more, 8 for each new CT CVN, and maybe 4 to Pinnacle and Halifax.
- Gaw F-14s: Listed at 72, I cut this number in half with just one JP CVN still carrying them and 1 squadron each at Pinnacle and Halifax.
- Helicopters no change.
- Sky Cycles down slightly as better aircraft became available.
8 ) Supply transports I increased by about 5% so almost 140
9) Patrol Boats was 381, most of which were probably wave Demons, but I think this would be the big increase so I went 10% to about 420.
- I increased Barricudas but I also figured they would add some Northern Gun and Triax models
10) Submarines: Were listed at 59, of which probably 51 were stingray mini-subs. This number might go up but personally I think this is where you would see some losses so I say the new number is anywhere from 55 to 61.
- The 2 Defiance SSBNs would still be around as they never leave port.
- The 6 Sharks would definitely see losses, I would say drop the number 3 or 4. They are crap subs and are likely to have been destroyed or so badly damaged not worth repairing.
- Orca Class, The CS did not have one in SB4. It is missing from the order of battle and if you look at the description of Isle of Orleans base and page 128 of WB 22 it is Clear Free Quebec got it. It says they were building 1 new one every 2 or 3 years so I would say the CS now has two of these with another one coming out of the yards in 110 or 111 PA.
- The other 50 or so subs would be Stingrays but I would also add in some Northern Gun and Triax models as well.
11) Capital Ships: Listed at 42 hulls. If this has gone up at all I would say 43 or 44, 46 at the most
- Joseph Prosek CVNs 3 unchanged. One of these could only be lost in a major engagement.
- Chi-Town CVNs was 1 now 3 but the 2 new ships just came out of the yards in 109 PA so it is unclear if they are combat ready for the beginning of the minion war.
- Wasp Class AWS 2 unchanged. Same as JP CVN.
- Sea Kings: Was 8 but FQ got 3 so went to 5. There is no mention of new ones being built but I would assume that they built 1 or 2 more by the end of 109 PA.
- James Bay Destroyers: Was 3 but according to the book. It is clear that at least one went to FQ as it is listed on there order of battle in WB 22. It says they plan to replace the Pre-Rifts Revenge class ships with these within a decade, so 114 PA I assume then that the CS has at least 2 more in service, maybe 3. I even Say FQ has built another 2 of these in the intervening years.
- Revenge class Pre-Rifts Destroyers: It says the CS bought 6, but FQ has an unspecified number listed on its order of battle. In my game I said the CS had 6 and FQ had 2 others, but you could say that any that FQ has come out of the CS 6. No matter how many they started with the number should be lower as they are replaced by JBs. In my game I said the CS lost 1. And scrapped another so 4 left.
- These classes only accounted for only 19 of the 42 original ships. I assumed the other 23 were IHA Triton Patrol Boats, which at 250 tons are much bigger than any CS PT boat. There is also no ship in any book that could reasonably be in this category. I assume they still have 22 or so of these, if any “Capital Ship” was going to be lost it would be these or the Revenge class. I could see the CSN modifying a few of these, replacing the mini-missile launcher with a battery of medium range missiles for air defense. In my game they did this to about half of there Tritons.
- There are no capital ships made by NG or any other power now that IHA is conquered by the CS and the only Triax capital ship I could see them selling to the CS is maybe 1 or 3 of the Xs-400s from WB 7. I don’t bother with this but might add some variety to the CSN.

As for the overall status of the CS Navy I would say that it has been on the back burner, growing at a quarter the rate of the army, during the Tolkeen War which it had little to do with especially after the peace with Free Quebec. I have to admit that I was surprised that in Triax 2 White & Aten said the CS used Deaths Head Transports to aid the NGR instead of the Navy. An amphibious attack from a Wasp with air support from a Joseph Prosek and missiles from Sea Kings and maybe even a few Sharks would have been perfect.

I would expect, given the locations listed in Megaverse in Flames, that it will be far more involved in the Minion War and may even see ship production rushed to meet demand.

Just my thoughts, curious what others think of my reasoning.

Ah, here it is. The CS Navy was destroyed by Free Quebec (pp138-139, Aftermath). Prior to that before the war, the CS lost half its ships to the Splugorth (p 16, Free Quebec).

I assume this is in reference to the remainder of the First Fleet that didn't go over to the Free Quebec side and the Second Fleet in Lone Star is somewhat intact, however, the Aftermath reference says "Quebec's superior Navy sunk the Coalition's." with no other values assigned to it other than it will take 6-8 years to rebuild. Which by the Minion War in 110, isnt even close to finishing the first ship really.

So basically, a whole source book is now obsolete save for what FQ has

That being said, some of the data Warshield73 presented would still make sense, like the hulls under construction. They wouldnt have been in combat with the Splugorth or Free Quebec and now serviceable.

It makes sense that the troops/ships at Fort Defiance and Halifax were the portions wiped out, (Im sure Lazlo would be happier) seeing that was where the fighting with Free Quebec and the Splugorth colonies were located. The hulls that were under construction would likely be out of the CSN base near the Ruins of Old Chicago. Second Fleet likely still intact, save for the ones lost at Halifax.

Excellent find. I read through both books a day or two before my last post but I should have done a search in the PDF just to be sure. I knew there was something about FQ beating the CSN in WB 22 but I assumed I found everything with the ship numbers towards the end.

After reviewing the quotes I have to say I remember how cranky I was about it when WB 22 first came out. The CSN is the only part of the CS that we have even basic numbers on and this book just glides over it with no specifics at all.

That being said I have some notes, but just to be clear I am not saying you are wrong. You may very well be exactly right but I am going to look at the specifics.

Kagashi wrote:Prior to that before the war, the CS lost half its ships to the Splugorth (p 16, Free Quebec).

The quote in the book is a little weird, but to me I think it just means they lost half the ships they had at the battle.

WB 22 Free Quebec, Pg. 16 wrote:Another 10% of these casualties came from a terribly brief but devastating battle with Splugorth Traders along the coast of Nova Scotia. Much to the CS Navy's embarrassment, they lost half their ships in this chance encounter

Note that it does not say that "they lost half the Navy" or even "they lost half the Fleet" just "they lost half their ships". This could mean 50% of the CSN was wiped out or it could mean they lost 1 of 2 Sea Kings and a few Wave Demons.

This brings up a second point, no ship types are mentioned. That same page says that CS losses were 4,400 killed, 30,000 injured and that this one battle cost 10% of these losses. So this battle had 440 deaths and 3,000 injured. Now all the Destroyers, cruisers and PT boats in the CSN's OoB would not hit that number of injured so if that number is correct it is likely that a carrier or at least an amphib was involved. But, if an amphib was sunk the losses would have been much higher and if a carrier was sunk the losses would be double that, minimum.

This also means that the losses to the Spludorth were from one incident, not a sustained offensive. On top of that the losses are way too small to be half of the CSN or even half of one of the fleets. As best I can figure from the numbers.

Now the book also says:

WB 22 Free Quebec, Pg. 16 wrote:The Coalition Navy's futile "first strike" attempts to cutoff the sea routes and river traffic in and out of Free Quebec have met with disaster. However, the loss of human life
has been negligible, because the Quebec Army has made a point to scuttle CS vessels, scatter naval forces and cutoff the CS lines of communication and sea routes to render their navy impotent rather than destroy it (and adding insult to injury).

This would seem to indicate that my earlier notes about CSN losses to FQ were probably pretty close.

As for the losses to the Spugorth the quote goes on to say:

WB 22 Free Quebec, Pg. 16 wrote:The discovery of Splugorth activity in and around southern Newfoundland and the heavy losses from a chance encounter near Cape Breton, Nova Scotia only adds to the Coalition Navy's embarrassment and dilemma. Unless something changes soon, the CS Navy will be a non-factor in this war.

This would indicate that most, if not all, the losses discussed here are in the First Fleet. The Second Fleet would never get anywhere near this area unless I missed something about a redeployment.

Kagashi wrote:Ah, here it is. The CS Navy was destroyed by Free Quebec (pp138-139, Aftermath).

Speaking of the war with Free Quebec the book says:

Rifts Aftermath, Pg. 139 wrote:Worse, that little episode single-handedly devastated the Coalition Navy. In fact, the Coalition's greatest material loss has been the loss of its Navy, which will take 6-8 years to build back to where it was prior to the war.

I focus on the word devastated and the time of 6-8 years, so 115 PA to 117 PA. to get the CSN back to were it was before the war.

Given the construction rates in the Navy SB if just the entire first fleet was lost it would take 12 to 18 years to replace them, unless GAW has more pre-rifts refits laying around.

Rifts Aftermath, Pg. 139 wrote:The only genuine weak spot for the CS is its Navy, which will not be a factor in their war against the Xiticix, and is unrecognized by most foreign powers like Atlantis and the Federation of Magic. Only the Great Lakes' pirates and freebooters are taking advantage of the situation with
the Navy and, in the grand scheme of things, they are nothing more than a minor nuisance.

With the focus in this quote being in the Great Lakes and without any solid numbers for classes of ships lost it is hard to guess but at the very least the catastrophe would seem to be confined to 1st Fleet. Again IMO.

Kagashi wrote:I assume this is in reference to the remainder of the First Fleet that didn't go over to the Free Quebec side and the Second Fleet in Lone Star is somewhat intact, however, the Aftermath reference says "Quebec's superior Navy sunk the Coalition's." with no other values assigned to it other than it will take 6-8 years to rebuild. Which by the Minion War in 110, isnt even close to finishing the first ship really.

Again I am not going to say you are wrong, but I think you are overstating the quote. As I said above given the info in CSN SB just the loss of 1st Fleet would take 12-18 years to replace. Unless they seriously upped their construction capabilities which there is no mention of in Aftermath.

The other problem is that we know what ships went over to the FQ Navy, it is all listed in WB 22 (see above) and accounted for in the CSN OoB in the SB. That being said even the SCN 2nd Fleet and Brown Water Navy will still be a force in the Minion war, especially with events in the Carribean.

Kagashi wrote:So basically, a whole source book is now obsolete save for what FQ has

Definitely not. The CSN with all it's OCCs and equipment still exists as does each ship class and most of the bases.

Kagashi wrote:That being said, some of the data Warshield73 presented would still make sense, like the hulls under construction. They wouldn't have been in combat with the Splugorth or Free Quebec and now serviceable.

At the very least,

Kagashi wrote:It makes sense that the troops/ships at Fort Defiance and Halifax were the portions wiped out, (Im sure Lazlo would be happier) seeing that was where the fighting with Free Quebec and the Splugorth colonies were located. The hulls that were under construction would likely be out of the CSN base near the Ruins of Old Chicago. Second Fleet likely still intact, save for the ones lost at Halifax.

I could find no reference to the destruction of Fort Defiance or Hallifax in either book. Also, as I pointed out the loss of life, as described in WB 22, was actually rather light.

Everything taken into consideration at the very least if you are looking at my assumptions you would want to reduce the number of Cruiser, Destroyers, Tritons, actual PT boats and maybe even subs and aircraft by another 5%. I would also have to strongly reconsider the condition of Halifax base. Although given the current state of peace between the CS and FQ I still maintain that they would at least keep it as a skeleton.

In the other direction you could wipe out every ship in the first fleet and obliterate Halifax. I maintain that there is no way the CS would allow Fort Defiance to fall given its location and importance in protecting Chi-town, Iron Heart and Northern Gun but you could go that far with what is said in aftermath.

My problem with the extreme end is that FQN just doesn't have the OoB to wipe these places out. Stopping the CSN from attacking them is easy enough with what they have but they lack the capital grade ships, and especially the aircraft, to hit carriers and bases. Also, as stated previously the Splugorth only hit them in one battle at sea so no effect on bases either.

But again good find in those two books and a lot to think about.