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Do magic users and psychics still get a reduction in their powers when they receive a certain amount of Techno Wizard Bionics and Cybernetics?

In short, yes.

Otherwise it would be an easy way around the consequences.

They definitely do.

Techno-wizardry implants are still implants, they just gain their powers and abilities (partially) through magic rather than electronics. A robotic hand is a robotic hand whether a battery is powering it or some funky arcano-crystals.

I can't speak to what TW Bionics are in the Lazlo Raw book, but the "optional" Necro-Tech replaces the general rule with a modest PPE/ISP penalty.

I know its not official but I would likely use something like the alpha/beta grade cyber gear in shadowrun vs the "standard" stuffs essence losses.

IE the gear that factors in magic, and has magic built into it can be customized and optimized to minimize the down sides. basically the opposite of some of the coalition "implants" that were designed specifically to maximize the penalties to magic.

Thank you all!

The real question is whether it's possible le to create TW Biosystems which don't effect a user's magic.

(SHIFTY) wrote:Do magic users and psychics still get a reduction in their powers when they receive a certain amount of Techno Wizard Bionics and Cybernetics?

I think the answer is: It's complicated as it will depend on factors like sourcing of materials and design plus the subject's physiology, though in general YES.

World Book 20: Canada when discussing the Momano Head Hunter variety and their use of TW Bionics does mention 3 implants or 1 limb penalty that would apply for regular Bionic/Cybernetics. They also cite a Mind-Melter level of psionic and how that psionic level is changed. On Pg126 it makes it clear these types of Bionic/Cybernetic systems would still impose a penalty.

BUT then you have the Daemonix (SoT#2 is when introduced) and the TW Bionics developed FOR them by Tolkeen. It is noted (pg88) that "Due to the alien nature of the Daemonix, this form of bionic-style TW augmentation only works on member of their race. It does not work on humans, D-Bees, Brodkil, Gargoyles or other supernatural beings. Bionics has the opposite effect on most beings, diminishing and blocking magic energy rather than releasing it in any useable way, shape or form. The Daemonix are truly unique." Now they are presented as a one-off, but they do offer precedent for to have examples that essentially run counter the notion of penalties.

Add in other examples like Lord Frommalaine NPC from SB1's Adventure or Salakind NPC from SoT6 pg107-11 (his are said to be above human comprehension) which involve heavy conversion of the NPC. They both are sourced differently, but they both seem to use something called "living metal", which likely means a TW Limb could be made w/no penalty, IF you can source this "living metal"....

SoT 6 does have a few NPCs and other bits worth considering: NPC Denwyn Ironheart (transferred into an Iron Golem) who takes a penalty to cast spells, NPC Baarrtk Krror who is equipped with a TW Bionic Eye (pg96-99), and the Iron Juggernauts.

Would a mage who transfers into a Golem (or into another body) be considered a Cyborg if it wasn't flesh?

Baarrtk Krror's TW Bionic Eye, is actually an eye-patch. No penalty is mentioned (though the user is a CoM) relating to its use. Now that could be because of the scope (1 "implant", not the 3-I/1-L from WB20) and the Dragon doesn't have to worry about it, but it does raise a question. Would a worn item(s) that mimics a Bionic Implant/Limb count as an implant/Limb for casting purposes? There are the TW extra-arms that are worn found in WB12, do they count as having a bionic/cybernetic limb even though they are essentially worn? (I assume the extra-arms thing can be adapted to replace a missing arm/limb if needed).

Iron Juggernauts are a grey area, on the one hand they are classified a TW Robot, but on the other hand they are presented to be Cyborgs (in the same style as the Mechanoids) given "the stress of having been an integral 'part' of an Iron Juggernaut is too much for almost mortals to survive". The statement can be found in just about every Iron Juggernaut Entry with regard to destruction of the main body and gives them a very Cyborg implication, though size wise they are comparable to giant robot platforms (which applies to some Mechanoids and IINM Naruni has a Cyborg of this scale to in Wave2, though it isn't a conventional humanoid platform).

There is also the Anti-Monster OCC (WB6 pg35-7) that is basically a TW FCB, there is also a TW Crazy (WB9 pg131-3), though here does the MOM conversion count as 1 implant or multiples (if 1x then not really relevant, but if multiples ((1x for each stud)) then it is relevant).

Side Note on The Mechanoids don't use TW, but they are all powerful psychics in their own right who IIRC aren't said to take penalties from their body (suggesting genetic engineering and/or proper design was used to allow full use).

Aermas wrote:The real question is whether it's possible le to create TW Biosystems which don't effect a user's magic.

I do not see why not if you have the right spell chain, and I can see several spell chain possibilities (chains presented should not be taken as complete):
-Create Mummy/Zombie to create an undead biosystem replacement
-Stone to Flesh, turn a stone carving (I would require it to be carved to resemble the limb/organ needed) into a flesh mass resembling what they are carved to represent and ready for implantation
-Elemental Chain exists w/n Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals Spell (Clay to Stone, Stone to Flesh, Breath of Life results in a Zombie-like creature) either creates a new creature for harvesting, or just simplify it to the part(s) needed

Aermas wrote:The real question is whether it's possible le to create TW Biosystems which don't effect a user's magic.

I believe in the Momano Head Hunter description in WB20 (Canada), it specifically says that standard Bio-Systems do not affect a psychic's abilities; I would assume, by extension, they wouldn't affect a mage either.

So if you started with Bio-System replacements as your base for a TW Bio-System, then I would wholeheartedly feel that they would not impose any penalties. They just aren't normally used by adventurers because they're not combat-oriented. I also think that normal Bio-Systems are way too weak, extremely limited in their stats. The whole point is they are supposed to perform & feel like your original body parts (as opposed to cybernetics that add additional capabilities, or bionics that boost your performance), but a character with PS 25 and PP 22 that gets a Bio-System replacement for a lost arm isn't going to match that anymore.

If anything, Bio-Systems as written now remind me of the officially available government replacements in Ben Sloane's Horn series: mid-21st Century NYPD cop sees his family killed & loses both knees & an arm to organized crime hit-men (one of whom is a true cyborg). His "mods" are crappy -- shaky hands, etc. -- that don't allow him to go back onto street duty, but his new partner knows a surgeon (essentially a slightly mad Cyber-Doc) in the Bronx that hooks him up with "E-mods" (military-grade bionic knees & arm that are illegal for even cops to have), & he uses them to take down criminals & get revenge for his family. He later also has to get a cybernetic eye replacement (targeting capability that ties into his laser-sighted pistol, night-vision & IR imaging, plus I believe it might be able to record and/or transmit).

Hmm...

I could see a TW Bio-System hand and forearm where the Techno-Wizard parts are grafted on as a tight bracelet around the wrist and rings on the fingers. It would all appear normal or decorative until flaming sword comes out.

Huh, I just thought of how a psychic can have one TW cybernetic implant without it affecting their abilities.

The Necro-Tech (Rifter 13, sorry for not mentioning it before) is sort of evil-themed, and just gives stats for basic limbs, but while optional it's more of an example than given for how Biomancy might facilitate a TW Bio-System. I could see using a grey necromancy take on TW items, since it seems like something which should always have a bit of a cost. Soulmancy items are coded as straight evil, just clamp onto the user (albeit for life), and are powered by SDC/MDC which pauses Bio-Regeneration. Perhaps an experimental Bio-Wizardry borg could be powered by faerie batteries installed in the abdomen.

Doesn't the Lazlo RAW have some sort of bionics? Can anyone speak to that?

I suspect this is contentious, but I don't have a big problem with Witches and Priests becoming cyborgs and keeping their powers, or a Psymbiote joining as a part of full conversion.