Future Robotech Mecha

[DairuggerXV]

Just a thought experiment, but if Robotech was to get a future installment that falls in line with the original show (ie another generation with a 10+ year time gap), what kind of aesthetic and general capabilities do you think it would have? A couple of quick rules.
1. No "advanced variant of the Invid Invasion mecha." I know that is/was a fairly popular prospect, but given that each subsequent generation has been very different than what came before. Yes, that was because they were different shows, but that's both exactly the point and not really the point.
2. No Macross mecha, it's pretty clear Robotech would have moved away from those evolutionary lines.

I can't think of any good aesthetics personally but I could see stealth technology being a big thing with them that wasn't shadow tech. Shadow tech would have been a big enough success with the United Forces that they would try to create similar capabilities without any potential sabotage. With the rise of stealth tech, I could also see spotter drones or a heavier reliance on recon-style mecha. I'd like to see fewer missile boats, but I don't see that happening. Or if they do have missile boats they rely on fewer but more powerful missiles. Of course, that would depend on having an enemy that doesn't rely on swarm tactics.

[Jefffar]

I'd assume we'd see the real world trends in aircraft of the period infkuencing whatever was being made for Robotech.

So go back a decade or two you'd likely see Generation 4.5 / Generation 5 fighters as inspiration.

Now, you'll probably see something stealthy, fast, with extremly good networking capabilities and the ability to operate without a pilor.

[taalismn]

Now, you'll probably see something stealthy, fast, with extremly good networking capabilities and the ability to operate without a pilor.

...Which would wind up either hacked by the Haydonites or develop a neurosis requiring some very careful talking down...

[Jefffar]

Maybe they all copy Janice's programming...

[taalismn]

Maybe they all copy Janice's programming...

And they all can sing?
Dear god, it's an all-new version of 'Sound Force'!

[ShadowLogan]

I can't think of any good aesthetics personally but I could see stealth technology being a big thing with them that wasn't shadow tech. Shadow tech would have been a big enough success with the United Forces that they would try to create similar capabilities without any potential sabotage. With the rise of stealth tech, I could also see spotter drones or a heavier reliance on recon-style mecha. I'd like to see fewer missile boats, but I don't see that happening. Or if they do have missile boats they rely on fewer but more powerful missiles. Of course, that would depend on having an enemy that doesn't rely on swarm tactics.

Aesthetics is always going to be a tricky one to predict. I do agree that current/near-future designs (maybe even paper concepts) are likely to have an influence on the designs when they are created, possibly even what might be popular with other franchises (which could go down either as a bad imitation or an innovative take on a given concept at the two extremes).

I don't think RT will go-down/continue-down the road of passive stealth as we use in the real world, even in the real world a purely passive approach is regarded to have a limited life time before it has to be supplemented/replaced with a more active approach. Another issue with stealth is if you have to deal with a new enemy (alien) that could have sensors that see right through conventional "stealth" either due to sensitivity or where they look (energy sensors and protoculture sensors) or even how they look (use lasers instead of radio waves).

Where I think designs should go in a "near future" scenario (1 generation from NG/TSC) would be to start seeing a "lessons" learned thing when it comes to what works and what doesn't work in mecha design if you want to have a sense of continuity with what came before where due to the nature of the show you have to "force" justify changes since the original 3 generations of mecha where not part of the same continuity (IIRC all are "1st" gen for their respective OSMs).

Maybe they all copy Janice's programming...

And they all can sing?
Dear god, it's an all-new version of 'Sound Force'!

You know Janice just lip sinks right?

[Jefffar]

Maybe they all copy Janice's programming...

And they all can sing?
Dear god, it's an all-new version of 'Sound Force'!

Hey now, the correct Robotech parallel is Lancerd Rockers

[DairuggerXV]

Maybe they all copy Janice's programming...

And they all can sing?
Dear god, it's an all-new version of 'Sound Force'!

Worse: Yami-Q-Ray from the most recent Delta movie, not only are they AI singers that pilot mecha, they are capable of pushing Max Jenius to his limits because the human body doesn't limit them. As for the idea that they would take ideas from current or near future machines: Yes, that makes sense, but it makes sense from a military design standpoint. That said, I also wouldn't be surprised if they took a different approach altogether, like looking at prototypes or concept drawings that didn't pan out in the real world and then adapting those to Robotech. Creative people are known for pulling designs from unusual places.

[dataweaver]

Just a thought experiment, but if Robotech was to get a future installment that falls in line with the original show (ie another generation with a 10+ year time gap), what kind of aesthetic and general capabilities do you think it would have? A couple of quick rules.
1. No "advanced variant of the Invid Invasion mecha." I know that is/was a fairly popular prospect, but given that each subsequent generation has been very different than what came before. Yes, that was because they were different shows, but that's both exactly the point and not really the point.
2. No Macross mecha, it's pretty clear Robotech would have moved away from those evolutionary lines.

I can't think of any good aesthetics personally but I could see stealth technology being a big thing with them that wasn't shadow tech. Shadow tech would have been a big enough success with the United Forces that they would try to create similar capabilities without any potential sabotage. With the rise of stealth tech, I could also see spotter drones or a heavier reliance on recon-style mecha. I'd like to see fewer missile boats, but I don't see that happening. Or if they do have missile boats they rely on fewer but more powerful missiles. Of course, that would depend on having an enemy that doesn't rely on swarm tactics.

Robotech was synthesized from three distinct series, which is why each existing generation looks so radically different from its predecessors. As such, a “fourth generation” would best be approached by finding another anime series that prominently features transforming mecha in a more or less military setting, and pressing it into service (with appropriate story rewrites) as a fourth generation.

What that series would be, I can't say. I hear that Gundam Wing had a lot of transforming mecha; though I haven't actually seen it myself, so it's just hearsay.

[ShadowLogan]

What that series would be, I can't say. I hear that Gundam Wing had a lot of transforming mecha; though I haven't actually seen it myself, so it's just hearsay.

Define "lot of", while GW does have transforming mecha (Wing Gundam, Wing-Zero Gundam, Epyon Gundam, Tarus, and maybe one of the UW MS, but in GW all of the Gundams are essentially 1-offs) I'm not sure adapting GW would be a good fit. While I do not support the idea of adapting another anime into RT (I'd rather see more independent growth), the 3 existing Anime had a variety of factors in common, some of those factors aren't present in GW without some type of major rewrite to work with RT (the biggest issue would be aliens). While I do not doubt there are other anime that could be adapted into RT, I do not see Gundam as a viable candidate, you almost need something that isn't as "popular" as a Gundam or Macross title.

[dataweaver]

What that series would be, I can't say. I hear that Gundam Wing had a lot of transforming mecha; though I haven't actually seen it myself, so it's just hearsay.

Define "lot of", while GW does have transforming mecha (Wing Gundam, Wing-Zero Gundam, Epyon Gundam, Tarus, and maybe one of the UW MS, but in GW all of the Gundams are essentially 1-offs) I'm not sure adapting GW would be a good fit. While I do not support the idea of adapting another anime into RT (I'd rather see more independent growth),

Likewise. But I'm also not a fan of inserting a “fourth era” into Robotech, and prefer what the OP specifically rejected: building on Southern Cross and Mospeada to create Robotech Ⅲ: Odyssey and/or a continuation of the Shadow Chronicles.

[Sambot]

I wouldn't mind seeing mecha from a variety of generations. 10 years isn't such a long time that older mecha wouldn't still be in service. So I'd like to see some Alphas and Cyclones. I could see other variants of them though. Two seaters, swing wing, FAST Packs, etc for the Alphas. Other motive types for the cyclones. The RPG has some, hover, space, etc. Maybe a jetski version for naval use and a tracked version for deep snow and sand? An autogyro version, like Little Nellie would be cool but might be too much.

I think it'd also be nice to see hovertanks, destroids, and battloids. Not just the older ones in militia or bandit hands but UEEF versions. Maybe a veritech car or sub?

Instead of 10 years into the future, I wouldn't mind seeing side stories. Early days of Macross and why the Mars Base was abandoned. The in between years from Macross to Southern Cross and the preparation to go to Tirol. I'd love to see a finished Sentinels. Missions to find Tirol but finding the DoZ and/or some other Zentraedi fleet instead. Post SC efforts to fight the Invid. A different group of UEEF troops that travels around fighting Invid and other hostiles in a Horizont or some thing. Like the Glomar in Orguss.
Licensing issues mean most of these ideas wouldn't happen. At least not with a lot of changes but I think they'd still be nice to see.

[jaymz]

Just use Orguss. It was supposed to be the second series. Make it the 4th.

[dataweaver]

Actually, Orguss was never supposed to be the second series of Robotech. It was the second series of Studio Nue's Super Dimension “trilogy” of Fortress Macross, Century Orguss, and Cavalry Southern Cross, which is where this rumor originated. But first, there's a reason I have “trilogy” in quotes: it was never designed to be an actual trilogy, with continuity of events from one series to the next; and second, Carl Macek never made any effort to incorporate Orguss into Robotech.

Note also that the Orguss (the mecha) is a unique, one-off design, not a mass-produced model, which makes it somewhat tricky to incorporate Orguss into Robotech.

[ShadowLogan]

While Orguss designs where not part of the plans for Robotech the TV series by Harmony Gold, the designs where part of Robotech via its Revel predecessor in its Robotech Defender "franchise" that was primarily model kits, but did include an (short-run/canceled-early) "original" comic book story arc. So in a sense there are old properties like Orguss (Duogram ((sp?) and Megazone 23 being the others) that have actual connections to the Robotech Brand, even if they aren't part of the HG RT or even current RT (MZ23 being part of HG, but Duogram and Orguss come from Revell).

[Sambot]

Note also that the Orguss (the mecha) is a unique, one-off design, not a mass-produced model, which makes it somewhat tricky to incorporate Orguss into Robotech.

Actually there are three variants of the Orguss. The original used by Kei, a second one used by Olsen, and a production version used by the Emaan.

I don't think the Orguss would be too hard to include in Robotech since an Orguss like Valkyrie appears in Macross twice. It's included in Robotech Tactics as the Jotun Valkyrie. The Orguss could be a result of that project. I think other mecha and designs could be integrated into Robotech too. Using the animation and story would be more of a challenge. It could be done but how its done would determine the availability of the mecha.

While Orguss designs where not part of the plans for Robotech the TV series by Harmony Gold, the designs where part of Robotech via its Revel predecessor in its Robotech Defender "franchise" that was primarily model kits, but did include an (short-run/canceled-early) "original" comic book story arc. So in a sense there are old properties like Orguss (Duogram ((sp?) and Megazone 23 being the others) that have actual connections to the Robotech Brand, even if they aren't part of the HG RT or even current RT (MZ23 being part of HG, but Duogram and Orguss come from Revell).

Were all the Orguss Mecha included in the Revell models? I thought it was just the Orguss and Nickick.

[dataweaver]

Robotech Defenders consisted of 17 non-transforming mecha from Fang of the Sun Dougram, 2 from Super Dimension Century Orguss, and one from Super Dimension Fortress Macross; and a set of “Changers” from Super Dimension Fortress Macross (11 models, though two of them were the two modes of the SDF-1, and one was Khyron's Battle Pod) and Super Dimension Century Orguss (three models).

[glitterboy2098]

Note also that the Orguss (the mecha) is a unique, one-off design, not a mass-produced model, which makes it somewhat tricky to incorporate Orguss into Robotech.

Actually there are three variants of the Orguss. The original used by Kei, a second one used by Olsen, and a production version used by the Emaan.

which, oddly, seems to be in mass production before the Glomar makes it back to Emaan lands to deliver the plans for their one-off rebuild of Kei's Bronco. (it shows up in the episode where they get ambushed right before entering Emann lands. Episode 14, "operation D". a slightly later episode talks about how the Emaan have decided to copy the design of Kei's machine, so it would seem to just be a case of someone using the wrong choice of mecha for the episode, perhaps due to a miscommunication during production of that batch of episodes. some of the episodes durign that arc show some additional Emaan mecha that were probably what would actually have been used.)

[Sambot]

Robotech Defenders consisted of 17 non-transforming mecha from Fang of the Sun Dougram, 2 from Super Dimension Century Orguss, and one from Super Dimension Fortress Macross; and a set of “Changers” from Super Dimension Fortress Macross (11 models, though two of them were the two modes of the SDF-1, and one was Khyron's Battle Pod) and Super Dimension Century Orguss (three models).

Cool. Thanks. I didn't know more Orguss designs had made it into Robotech Defenders.

Note also that the Orguss (the mecha) is a unique, one-off design, not a mass-produced model, which makes it somewhat tricky to incorporate Orguss into Robotech.

Actually there are three variants of the Orguss. The original used by Kei, a second one used by Olsen, and a production version used by the Emaan.

which, oddly, seems to be in mass production before the Glomar makes it back to Emaan lands to deliver the plans for their one-off rebuild of Kei's Bronco. (it shows up in the episode where they get ambushed right before entering Emann lands. Episode 14, "operation D". a slightly later episode talks about how the Emaan have decided to copy the design of Kei's machine, so it would seem to just be a case of someone using the wrong choice of mecha for the episode, perhaps due to a miscommunication during production of that batch of episodes. some of the episodes durign that arc show some additional Emaan mecha that were probably what would actually have been used.)

That is weird. Maybe those were early prototypes or something? We don't see them transform until later so maybe Shia delivered the plans for the conversion system? I don't know? Just guessing.

[Peacebringer]

Robotech Defenders was one of the first comics I read as a kid!!!

One time, we had a Robotech vs. Robotech battle for Battletech. One side used the Macross-Mechs whereas the other side used the Dougram-mechs. Macross-side won!!!

I always thought Orguss-designs were cool; they could work in the Macross-Universe.


So, if humans aren't fighting outsiders, aliens, they will break-away and eventually fight each other.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The mecha would be piloted more like a bioroid, with a cybernetic link (data plug or thinking helmet) to the mecha to pilot the mecha as if a part of their body. Along with this having a support medium in their suits to counter G-forces experienced during high G maneuvers.

...erp went hard sci-fi....aahhhh...

More of the same with ships stupidly having their bridges out where they can be shot at, and the main characters piloting planes.

The Orguss designs are cool.

[glitterboy2098]

I'd assume we'd see the real world trends in aircraft of the period infkuencing whatever was being made for Robotech.

So go back a decade or two you'd likely see Generation 4.5 / Generation 5 fighters as inspiration.

Now, you'll probably see something stealthy, fast, with extremly good networking capabilities and the ability to operate without a pilor.

probably.. the Robotech Academy series kickstarter demonstrates similar thinking on GW's part.. except that it was actually set after ASC and before New Gen.*

the new mecha being shown off for the project included a B-2 like veritech, and a predator drone looking drone veritech.


*a problematic timeframe, as one of the main characters was technically dead by then, seen to die *on screen* in southern cross)

[Sambot]

I think the designs of the mecha would mostly depend on where they're fighting. If they're in space fighting the Hydonites, we'd likely see more variants of the UEEF mecha. Mostly Alphas and Cyclones, I think. Maybe a UEEF versions of ASC mecha? We might even get to see some Destroids and Bioroids. Here, the big question would be if we get to see any other Sentinels races and any of their vehicles and mecha. And while these mecha would be new to us, I think they'd already be in service. Really new mecha would have to wait until the UEEF deals with Shadow Technology. Then we'd start to see prototypes.

If the fighting is on Earth, against bandits, pirates, rogue kingdoms, etc., I think we'd see more cyclones and other ground mechs. Again, I think most mecha would be older. There's no super need for expensive stealthy mecha. Much of Earth doesn't have a lot of technology so stealth would be waisted there. However, there's the possibility of having to fight Earth mecha that's in hands that aren't friendly to the UEEF. I think most of these would be older UEEF Mecha but it's possible some older mecha could still be in peoples hands. They might have even made their own mecha or frankenmech somethings.

Either way, it would be nice to see some engineering mecha. Earth does need rebuilding. Maybe conversions of older types, the way Macross 7 did to the retired Destroids.

With the Cyclones I wouldn't mind seeing more types. A lot of this would just be different forearm attachments but completely different variants would be cool. It'd also be nice to see other small mecha similar to the Cyclones for specific environments, like skidoos, snowmobiles, and autogyros like Little Nellie.

[taalismn]

I It'd also be nice to see other small mecha similar to the Cyclones for specific environments, like skidoos, snowmobiles, and autogyros like Little Nellie.

Everything BIUT the autogyros.
Why?
Because at least in the anime & manga I've seen, one man helicopters do NOT fare well in anime.

"Bubblegum Crisis' has the ADPolice's small patrol helicopters. Small, truck-portable, fold up around the pilot, and armed with a tri-barrel mini-gun. They may as well be the 'Skeet Patrol' for all the good they fare against combat boomers. In fact, one of them flies into a telephone pole(I believe while pursuing the Gryphon). Flying close air support for ADPolice has an even shorter life expectancy than the K-suit units.

'Appleseed'....The Air Police go through two generations of one-man attack helicopters. They pretty much get wasted in both models(against power armors/landmates and the spider gun platform). In fact, one pilot pretty much lampshades this..after charging into a combat situation promising to redeem the reputation of the Air Police*, and then winding up wrapped in his crashed mini-copter in the middle of the street, the chief pilot tearfully apologizes to his section chief for messing up AGAIN. Just SURVIVING Air Police would seem a major accomplishment.

*Because those hard cases at E-SWAT seem to get all the glory.

Stick with jetpack/hoverycle Cyclones or Logans. They're safer.

[ShadowLogan]

the new mecha being shown off for the project included a B-2 like veritech, and a predator drone looking drone veritech.

Why does the Predator Drone looking unit remind me of an iteration of Soundwave from Transformers (Prime specifically)?

Really new mecha would have to wait until the UEEF deals with Shadow Technology. Then we'd start to see prototypes.

Actually, I would think we should start seeing ground up prototypes during the Haydonite Conflict that (attempt to at least) take better advantage of Shadow Technology (presuming it can be salvaged) from the ground up. Retrofitting it to existing designs (like the Alpha) may not allow its full potential to be utilized.

With the Cyclones I wouldn't mind seeing more types. A lot of this would just be different forearm attachments but completely different variants would be cool. It'd also be nice to see other small mecha similar to the Cyclones for specific environments, like skidoos, snowmobiles, and autogyros like Little Nellie.

I'm the opposite. I'd like to see the Cyclones fade away and replaced with some that makes more sense in their design and adoption of roles given the units have all sorts of problems like:
-the Alpha is known to be short on propellant capacity, the Cyclone takes up something like 1 cubic meter (=1,000L) of which could be used to address the propellant issue (and/or allow improvements in other aspects).
-the level of integration for the body armor to fully utilize a Cyclone can be shown to be a weakness in the Series (at least 4x times out of 25 episodes someone gets caught without the armor and can't transform the mecha in a combat situation), don't get me wrong either I'm not saying body armor should not be worn I'm saying it should not be part of the mecha design itself like some type of attempt at practical mecha-masume (sp?)
-when you get down to it the typical (stated) Cyclone doesn't have much staying power either. Which really brings into question its actual combat effectiveness and even usefulness (and I ran some scripts awhile back evaluating the RAW PB RPG stats and the Cyclone did not fair so well placing toward the bottom of the AVERAGED list regardless of 1E or 2E).
-the actual protective qualities of the Cyclone are compromised given the design has to accommodate transformation hardware and leaves limbs exposed (relying on body armor for protection). For a survival unit or undercover espionage unit such features might be justifiable, but for regular infantry type roles I would suspect a non-transformable design (similar to ASC PA suits) would likely be better (especially if they don't have to conform to the ASC units suck mindset).

[Sambot]

I It'd also be nice to see other small mecha similar to the Cyclones for specific environments, like skidoos, snowmobiles, and autogyros like Little Nellie.

Everything BIUT the autogyros.
Why?
Because at least in the anime & manga I've seen, one man helicopters do NOT fare well in anime.

"Bubblegum Crisis' has the ADPolice's small patrol helicopters. Small, truck-portable, fold up around the pilot, and armed with a tri-barrel mini-gun. They may as well be the 'Skeet Patrol' for all the good they fare against combat boomers. In fact, one of them flies into a telephone pole(I believe while pursuing the Gryphon). Flying close air support for ADPolice has an even shorter life expectancy than the K-suit units.

'Appleseed'....The Air Police go through two generations of one-man attack helicopters. They pretty much get wasted in both models(against power armors/landmates and the spider gun platform). In fact, one pilot pretty much lampshades this..after charging into a combat situation promising to redeem the reputation of the Air Police*, and then winding up wrapped in his crashed mini-copter in the middle of the street, the chief pilot tearfully apologizes to his section chief for messing up AGAIN. Just SURVIVING Air Police would seem a major accomplishment.

*Because those hard cases at E-SWAT seem to get all the glory.

Stick with jetpack/hoverycle Cyclones or Logans. They're safer.

All things get wasted at the speed of plot.

I was thinking the autogyro could be built from cyclone parts and convert to a Power Armor. The reason for the rotor would be less use of protoculture and a higher flight ceiling than thrusters.

Really new mecha would have to wait until the UEEF deals with Shadow Technology. Then we'd start to see prototypes.

Actually, I would think we should start seeing ground up prototypes during the Haydonite Conflict that (attempt to at least) take better advantage of Shadow Technology (presuming it can be salvaged) from the ground up. Retrofitting it to existing designs (like the Alpha) may not allow its full potential to be utilized.

That takes time and until they can figure out how to fix the shadow technology or something to replace it and get it into production, they'll be stuck using older mecha. Also, retrofits may not be the best but they'd get to the frontlines faster as they already have a production line. A new mecha would have to be designed from the ground up. With the UEEF just getting majorly nerfed, they don't have time for that.

With the Cyclones I wouldn't mind seeing more types. A lot of this would just be different forearm attachments but completely different variants would be cool. It'd also be nice to see other small mecha similar to the Cyclones for specific environments, like skidoos, snowmobiles, and autogyros like Little Nellie.

I'm the opposite. I'd like to see the Cyclones fade away and replaced with some that makes more sense in their design and adoption of roles given the units have all sorts of problems like:
-the Alpha is known to be short on propellant capacity, the Cyclone takes up something like 1 cubic meter (=1,000L) of which could be used to address the propellant issue (and/or allow improvements in other aspects).

I imagine the oldest generations of Alphas didn't have Cyclone compartments and could have had greater endurance. The downside is if the Alpha crashes the pilot is on foot. And with both mecha using canisters, the pilot can use the ones from the downed Alpha to keep the Cyclone running longer. I imagine that reducing the Alpha's endurance was deemed acceptable for increasing the pilot's mobility and safety.

-the level of integration for the body armor to fully utilize a Cyclone can be shown to be a weakness in the Series (at least 4x times out of 25 episodes someone gets caught without the armor and can't transform the mecha in a combat situation), don't get me wrong either I'm not saying body armor should not be worn I'm saying it should not be part of the mecha design itself like some type of attempt at practical mecha-masume (sp?)

That is a weakness but so is being caught outside your Mecha. You can't operate it if you can't get in it. So I don't have a problem with body armor being a part of the design. I do think that there could be designs that don't require the use of body armor. though. Like the motorcycles mecha from Megazone 23 or the one from Zillion. They don't require the use of body armor to convert. The Prototype Cyclone from Robotech Art 3 could have converted into a mech similar to them. Of course having a pure Power Armor would be good too.

-when you get down to it the typical (stated) Cyclone doesn't have much staying power either. Which really brings into question its actual combat effectiveness and even usefulness (and I ran some scripts awhile back evaluating the RAW PB RPG stats and the Cyclone did not fair so well placing toward the bottom of the AVERAGED list regardless of 1E or 2E).

I wouldn't think the Cyclone would be as good as Veritech or Destroid but I do think it'd be better than infantry on foot.

-the actual protective qualities of the Cyclone are compromised given the design has to accommodate transformation hardware and leaves limbs exposed (relying on body armor for protection). For a survival unit or undercover espionage unit such features might be justifiable, but for regular infantry type roles I would suspect a non-transformable design (similar to ASC PA suits) would likely be better (especially if they don't have to conform to the ASC units suck mindset).

That the body armor is exposed on the cyclone is a drawback. I think its in part because it is a survival mecha and needs to be compact enough to fit into the storage compartments. I think the other part is because the Cyclone would be lighter, faster, more maneuverable, and less expensive to build and repair than a larger variable motorbike would be. When you've got a lot of infantry, those things are going to be a factor. Of course, that'd make one wonder what there aren't just regular Power Armor as they'd be cheaper. I think there should be but we didn't see them because Cyclones are cooler. Expeditionary Marines does give us a few pure Power Armor Suits. I still use the Micronian PA from Strike Force though.

[ShadowLogan]

That takes time and until they can figure out how to fix the shadow technology or something to replace it and get it into production, they'll be stuck using older mecha. Also, retrofits may not be the best but they'd get to the frontlines faster as they already have a production line. A new mecha would have to be designed from the ground up. With the UEEF just getting majorly nerfed, they don't have time for that.

The thing is (IIRC) we don't know the nature of the Shadow Technology Exploit the Haydonites use. It might be something inherent to the technology, then again it could just be a backdoor that could be engineered out.

The UEEF could have Gen 4 Veritechs in development already while using Gen 3 Veritechs (Alpha, Beta) with them going with the enhanced Gen 3 VTs having been moved to production due to (self-imposed) time constraints.

I imagine the oldest generations of Alphas didn't have Cyclone compartments and could have had greater endurance. The downside is if the Alpha crashes the pilot is on foot. And with both mecha using canisters, the pilot can use the ones from the downed Alpha to keep the Cyclone running longer. I imagine that reducing the Alpha's endurance was deemed acceptable for increasing the pilot's mobility and safety.

I think the Alphas had to have a compartment like that already existing, and there might have been "predecessor" designs used by the UEEF (like the MR-40).

I'm not sure I agree retrofitting in a survival (parasite) mecha is all that smart given that the Alpha would be penalized and result in the need to counter that penalization (with the Beta). That penalization might also mean you end up more of the big-expensive units shot down (that 1000L of volume and over 100kg of mass) as compared to a hypothetical non-penalized version (100kg of extra armor for example, or 100kg of extra missiles, etc). Now something that used the cockpit's ejection seat to create a survival mecha IMHO would be less problematic than, make room for X.

I wouldn't think the Cyclone would be as good as Veritech or Destroid but I do think it'd be better than infantry on foot

This assumes there is someone for the infantry to fight and its weapons could not be used by a single infantry man (the RL-6, EP-37, EP-40, H-90, Valiant all can, even the CADS. That really only leaves the new railgun, sidecars, GR-103 and maybe the GR-97 that can't. Offhand I don't recall the UEEF Marines crap that well to put anything from there on these lists).

I think its in part because it is a survival mecha and needs to be compact enough to fit into the storage compartments.

As I said there are roles where that drawback might make sense, but there are also roles where it makes less sense. Pilot Survival I can see (it's not intended for intense combat), but for regular infantry use the Cyclone appears to be a poor design.

[Sambot]

That takes time and until they can figure out how to fix the shadow technology or something to replace it and get it into production, they'll be stuck using older mecha. Also, retrofits may not be the best but they'd get to the frontlines faster as they already have a production line. A new mecha would have to be designed from the ground up. With the UEEF just getting majorly nerfed, they don't have time for that.

The thing is (IIRC) we don't know the nature of the Shadow Technology Exploit the Haydonites use. It might be something inherent to the technology, then again it could just be a backdoor that could be engineered out.

True and it's going to take time to figure that out. So their choices are 1) use older mecha they already have. 2) use Shadow Mecha with that can be exploited. 3) wait until new mecha can be designed, tested, and produced. I think they'd choose 1 while they work on 2 and 3.

The UEEF could have Gen 4 Veritechs in development already while using Gen 3 Veritechs (Alpha, Beta) with them going with the enhanced Gen 3 VTs having been moved to production due to (self-imposed) time constraints.

True. Although it's likely that Gen 4 Veritechs would use Shadow Technology. That'd put them in the situation above. Use older Veritechs or flawed ones.

I imagine the oldest generations of Alphas didn't have Cyclone compartments and could have had greater endurance. The downside is if the Alpha crashes the pilot is on foot. And with both mecha using canisters, the pilot can use the ones from the downed Alpha to keep the Cyclone running longer. I imagine that reducing the Alpha's endurance was deemed acceptable for increasing the pilot's mobility and safety.

I think the Alphas had to have a compartment like that already existing, and there might have been "predecessor" designs used by the UEEF (like the MR-40).

I'm not sure I agree retrofitting in a survival (parasite) mecha is all that smart given that the Alpha would be penalized and result in the need to counter that penalization (with the Beta). That penalization might also mean you end up more of the big-expensive units shot down (that 1000L of volume and over 100kg of mass) as compared to a hypothetical non-penalized version (100kg of extra armor for example, or 100kg of extra missiles, etc). Now something that used the cockpit's ejection seat to create a survival mecha IMHO would be less problematic than, make room for X.

True. The non-converting motorcycle predecessors to the Cyclone could have been carried by the Alpha. I can see how they might convert enough for a storage mode. It also makes sense them being used by earlier waves before the Cyclone was perfected.

I wouldn't think the Cyclone would be as good as Veritech or Destroid but I do think it'd be better than infantry on foot

This assumes there is someone for the infantry to fight and its weapons could not be used by a single infantry man (the RL-6, EP-37, EP-40, H-90, Valiant all can, even the CADS. That really only leaves the new railgun, sidecars, GR-103 and maybe the GR-97 that can't. Offhand I don't recall the UEEF Marines crap that well to put anything from there on these lists).

CADs can be used by infantry? And isn't there always someone for infantry to fight?

I think its in part because it is a survival mecha and needs to be compact enough to fit into the storage compartments.

As I said there are roles where that drawback might make sense, but there are also roles where it makes less sense. Pilot Survival I can see (it's not intended for intense combat), but for regular infantry use the Cyclone appears to be a poor design.

I partially agree. In a straight up fight I think Power Armor would be better than a Cyclone. However, I think the Cyclone's motorcycle mode would be faster than the Power Armor. And while those larger variable motorcycles I mentioned would be better for straight up combat they do have disadvantages. Their size being a big one. No pun intended. They're not going to be as fast or as maneuverable as the smaller Cyclone. Their size is also going to limit where they can go. So the Cyclone does have advantages larger variable bikes, and power armor suits don't have. I do think that it's flaws would mean it wouldn't be the only "infantry" mecha. We just didn't see any in the show. That doesn't mean they couldn't exist. They could have been in used off screen.

[ShadowLogan]

CADs can be used by infantry? And isn't there always someone for infantry to fight?

The CADS from Lancer's VR-041 get used solo when Lancer is only shown to be in CVR-3 in the Invasion Comics (long stint in #4 and a shorter stint at the start of #5).

Is there someone for infantry to fight? Yes, however is it practical to engage said "someone" with infantry:
-I suspect that human infantry would have some practical issues in dealing with (giant-size) Zentreadi infantry (if a giant Zentreadi is 8x the size of a human, and their equipment scales at the same rate that means practically speaking a giant assault rifle is going to be ~40-60mm vs the common human assault rifle sizes and if we jump up to the .50/12.7mm upper end that would be ~100mm and human anti-material rifles in the 20mm size become 160mm).
-Then you have space combat where they are going to be very limited in terms of what they can do practically.
-It's also worth considering if the aliens utilize anything that resemble foot Infantry. For example, the Invid aren't shown to deploy "foot infantry", you're looking at a race that basically deploys PA (or better level) troops which don't really have an equivalent in modern force structure (IINM). I'm not saying Infantry can't engage them effectively, I'm saying it might not be practical to engage them.

However, I think the Cyclone's motorcycle mode would be faster than the Power Armor.

Depends on the Power Armor design. Some of the ASC Power Armor can do a "Power Leap Run" that allows them to reach 280kph, on par with the VR-05x series in motorcycle mode and faster than the VR-04x series, but admittedly slower than the VR-03x series. None of the ASC units can fly, but the Cyclone flight speeds are lower than in Motorcycle Mode but IINM the altitude limit of the Cyclone is pretty restrictive falling within the ASC PA leap abilities (generally).

While ASC PA are closer in size to the Silverback, the existence of the nt-B Cyclone in UEEF Marines shows you can build a PA in RT that is at the same approx. scale as a human. I'm also a bit leery on the smaller size being an overall advantage, while you can certainly go places that larger units could not you do so with a loss of capabilities (larger units are going to have more powerful systems, more armor, and bigger guns so to speak) and I'm not sure I want to go with maneuverability aspect as there can be a lot that could go into it. The size can't go places aspect might also be misleading when you consider that the Cyclone could be "too big" depending on the alien race in question (Haydonites w/o their robes can go places you couldn't, even w/o the Cyclone, then you have the Spherians abilities, possibly even the Pigeon Menace Leonard brings up in Sentinels OVA, and who knows what else could be out there in the RT-universes).

[Sambot]

CADs can be used by infantry? And isn't there always someone for infantry to fight?

The CADS from Lancer's VR-041 get used solo when Lancer is only shown to be in CVR-3 in the Invasion Comics (long stint in #4 and a shorter stint at the start of #5).

That's cool but does is that canon and does that mean it can be done in the game? I would think it's possible but I would think it'd be awkard to use.

Is there someone for infantry to fight? Yes, however is it practical to engage said "someone" with infantry:
-I suspect that human infantry would have some practical issues in dealing with (giant-size) Zentreadi infantry (if a giant Zentreadi is 8x the size of a human, and their equipment scales at the same rate that means practically speaking a giant assault rifle is going to be ~40-60mm vs the common human assault rifle sizes and if we jump up to the .50/12.7mm upper end that would be ~100mm and human anti-material rifles in the 20mm size become 160mm).
-Then you have space combat where they are going to be very limited in terms of what they can do practically.
-It's also worth considering if the aliens utilize anything that resemble foot Infantry. For example, the Invid aren't shown to deploy "foot infantry", you're looking at a race that basically deploys PA (or better level) troops which don't really have an equivalent in modern force structure (IINM). I'm not saying Infantry can't engage them effectively, I'm saying it might not be practical to engage them.

True. Space wouldn't be the best place for infantry to fight. That doesn't mean they couldn't be used for boarding missions though.
That the Invid don't really have infantry is also true. Although, Stage 4 and 6 Invid are capable of using hand guns. Plus, the Invid aren't the UEEF's only enemy. I'm pretty sure they presumed the RM had some infantry based on the Zentraedi using infantry. And we do see some in Southern Cross and a some in the Sentinels.
Then there's Edwards faction. Then there's the Hydonites. Do they use infantry? Do the Hydonites have allies? How about the Disciples of Zor? Are the friend or foe? Other aliens bent on revenge against the Tyroleans and their Alliee (UEEF)? Pirates? Non aligned Human kingdoms and bandits.
Infantry may not be the best option in all cases. They might even be the worst but they'd be better than nothing and in some cases can be better than mecha.

However, I think the Cyclone's motorcycle mode would be faster than the Power Armor.

Depends on the Power Armor design. Some of the ASC Power Armor can do a "Power Leap Run" that allows them to reach 280kph, on par with the VR-05x series in motorcycle mode and faster than the VR-04x series, but admittedly slower than the VR-03x series. None of the ASC units can fly, but the Cyclone flight speeds are lower than in Motorcycle Mode but IINM the altitude limit of the Cyclone is pretty restrictive falling within the ASC PA leap abilities (generally).

While ASC PA are closer in size to the Silverback, the existence of the nt-B Cyclone in UEEF Marines shows you can build a PA in RT that is at the same approx. scale as a human. I'm also a bit leery on the smaller size being an overall advantage, while you can certainly go places that larger units could not you do so with a loss of capabilities (larger units are going to have more powerful systems, more armor, and bigger guns so to speak) and I'm not sure I want to go with maneuverability aspect as there can be a lot that could go into it. The size can't go places aspect might also be misleading when you consider that the Cyclone could be "too big" depending on the alien race in question (Haydonites w/o their robes can go places you couldn't, even w/o the Cyclone, then you have the Spherians abilities, possibly even the Pigeon Menace Leonard brings up in Sentinels OVA, and who knows what else could be out there in the RT-universes).

Are the SC PA really PA or are they robots made into PA because someone thought the ASC needed PA? I don't remember seeing anything like PA in the anime. Battloids, Bioroids, Veritechs, Vehicles, and lots of Infantry but no Power Armor. Considering their size, I think they're more Battloids than Power Armor. Also is the leap running a Palladium thing? I don't remember ASC mecha being that fast and that seems very fast. Even if it's right though, that doesn't mean they'd be as maneuverable. They certainly can't go where the Cyclone can.

I also don't remember a 3x,4x,or 5x series Cyclone. Where are they?

Also size being an advantage is situational. They may not be as powerful but their small size can make them harder to hit. Their numbers can also overwhelm a more powerful foe. They can also go places larger mecha can't. And there's times, they may be too big, like you said. That would make infantry a better option.

I also agree that the UEEF could build a Power Armor. They could have been more wide spread before the Cyclone was perfected. There's a couple things to consider though. Doesn't the Cyclone use more fuel in PA Mode than in Motorcycle? If so, wouldn't a PA Suit use more fuel then the Cyclone in motorcycle mode? Also if traveling any distance is required, wouldn't doing so in a PA be more tiring for the operator than a motorcycle?

Like I said, I don't think the Cyclone is the best in all situations but I don't have a problem with it being used in the numbers it is. It would be nice to see more variations along with pure PA and other smaller, but bigger than the Cyclone variable mecha though.

[ShadowLogan]

That's cool but does is that canon and does that mean it can be done in the game? I would think it's possible but I would think it'd be awkard to use.

The Invasion Comics are still canon AFAIK for HG's current RT, HOWEVER for PB's games they appear to have taken some liberties that make duplication of the canon-comic feat questionable for a few reasons. One of which might be the weight of the CADS (is PB's RAW 25lbs correct in terms of canon?), another is the fact that the units in RAW are supposed to be vibro-blades (in canon nothing indicates they are this AFAIK) which requires an independent power source given Lancer used it on someone wearing CVR-3 armor (that or CVR-3 augments the users strength to MD level OR CVR-3 has areas vulnerable to SDC combat).

1E does have a note about using it detached from the mecha, and notes the weight issue (and talking serious penalties for a melee weapon) and a drop off in damage. I can't seem to find anything like that in 2E off hand, though given they remain largely unchanged between editions...

So the answer to your question is YES, Infantry can use CADS in Canon RT from a technicality perspective. What little examples we have would indicate that it is rarely used this way.

Infantry may not be the best option in all cases. They might even be the worst but they'd be better than nothing and in some cases can be better than mecha.

I'm not even sure the UEEF uses foot infantry proper like the ASC or RDF would use. While I am not saying they can't fight as foot infantry, their Infantry forces appear to all be specialized power armor infantry given the "everyone has a mecha" that doesn't have a real world counterpart.

I also don't remember a 3x,4x,or 5x series Cyclone. Where are they?

The X was used a placeholder for multiple number variants within each instead of writing them all out (canon examples are -038, -041, -051, -055, -057 and while not canon suggest that unit #s exist that fill in the gaps for the -05x and likely the -038 has predecessors, the -041 AFAIK is the only variant number in that series, unless it starts at ZERO)

Are the SC PA really PA or are they robots made into PA because someone thought the ASC needed PA? I don't remember seeing anything like PA in the anime.

In the anime there is dialogue that established the ASC to use "power amplified body armor" in Ep45 "Metal Fire" (and at minimum used to use Cyborgs in the previous episode), however it is never established what those units look like or if they appear on screen. So technically PB isn't in the wrong per say to include something that fits the PA moniker. Given the control setup, Bioroids might even qualify as Power Armor even if they are battloid-size.

Now the designs PB used are all recycled from OSM lineart and do not appear in the episodes proper (ie story block, not the credits). OFF-HAND, they might appear in the open/end credits during the "battloid charge" in a blink and you miss it type deal. As the designs are recycled (and largely used in 1E) there is a good possibility they where originally intended as "battloids" with PB altering their size to be used as stand-ins for the PA filler in 2E (similar to what they did in 1E using some of the designs for EBSIS RDF-scale battloids and using some of the rest as additional battloids ignoring PA).

As for their size. I am just going to say its a gray area. Megaversally PB considers anything under 12ft tall (generally) to be Power Armor and anything taller to be a robot vehicle, even if it might be more accurate to consider it a robot due to placement and such (a few examples exist in Rifts, and there are a few exceptions to the PA or 'Bot size but those are based on the operators not being human-ish sized). ASC PA also appear to be modeled after the two Zentreadi suits (which are certainly much larger than their operators). Now weather a 12ft tall unit in the real world would be the cutoff point or not I don't know or if size would even matter (it might come down to control setups).

Doesn't the Cyclone use more fuel in PA Mode than in Motorcycle?

Nothing exists in canon to indicate this AFAIK (I know in the OSM operating duration in PA is listed in units of time and motorcycle in distance units with MC operating longer time if you do the math), and as far as RAW goes for the PB RPGs they don't use such an approach either (they DO mention heavy use drains the cell faster). It might also be worth considering that a veritech power armor might place additional restrictions on powerplant size and efficiency that its non-transformable counterparts don't have to contend with especially if we factor in mission requirements. For example, the Cyclone due to its survival mecha role has to fit in a certain volume (on the Alpha that's about 1,000L/1cubic-meter), which might require going with an undersized engine to fit in that cavity that is okay for MC mode but has to run with "afterburners" to get the desired performance in PA mode where its non-transformable counterpart might use a properly size engine that doesn't need to use "afterburners" to get the same performance.

[Sambot]

That's cool but does is that canon and does that mean it can be done in the game? I would think it's possible but I would think it'd be awkard to use.

The Invasion Comics are still canon AFAIK for HG's current RT, HOWEVER for PB's games they appear to have taken some liberties that make duplication of the canon-comic feat questionable for a few reasons. One of which might be the weight of the CADS (is PB's RAW 25lbs correct in terms of canon?), another is the fact that the units in RAW are supposed to be vibro-blades (in canon nothing indicates they are this AFAIK) which requires an independent power source given Lancer used it on someone wearing CVR-3 armor (that or CVR-3 augments the users strength to MD level OR CVR-3 has areas vulnerable to SDC combat).

1E does have a note about using it detached from the mecha, and notes the weight issue (and talking serious penalties for a melee weapon) and a drop off in damage. I can't seem to find anything like that in 2E off hand, though given they remain largely unchanged between editions...

So the answer to your question is YES, Infantry can use CADS in Canon RT from a technicality perspective. What little examples we have would indicate that it is rarely used this way.

Cool Thanks. I don't think I don't think I've even see an Invasion comic.

I do remember 1E having penalties but I don't remember if 2E did or not.

Maybe they don't because it's heavy and awkward to use?

Infantry may not be the best option in all cases. They might even be the worst but they'd be better than nothing and in some cases can be better than mecha.

I'm not even sure the UEEF uses foot infantry proper like the ASC or RDF would use. While I am not saying they can't fight as foot infantry, their Infantry forces appear to all be specialized power armor infantry given the "everyone has a mecha" that doesn't have a real world counterpart.

Going by the OCCs in the RPG it would seem that UEEF does use some infantry. I would also think the everyone has mecha thing would depend on what time period. I think there'd be more infantry before power armor and cyclones are perfected then after.

I also don't remember a 3x,4x,or 5x series Cyclone. Where are they?

The X was used a placeholder for multiple number variants within each instead of writing them all out (canon examples are -038, -041, -051, -055, -057 and while not canon suggest that unit #s exist that fill in the gaps for the -05x and likely the -038 has predecessors, the -041 AFAIK is the only variant number in that series, unless it starts at ZERO)

Oh okay. I figured, motorcycles like the MR-40 Reconnaissance Motorcycle were the prototypes to the Cyclones since they share styling and parts.

Are the SC PA really PA or are they robots made into PA because someone thought the ASC needed PA? I don't remember seeing anything like PA in the anime.

In the anime there is dialogue that established the ASC to use "power amplified body armor" in Ep45 "Metal Fire" (and at minimum used to use Cyborgs in the previous episode), however it is never established what those units look like or if they appear on screen. So technically PB isn't in the wrong per say to include something that fits the PA moniker. Given the control setup, Bioroids might even qualify as Power Armor even if they are battloid-size.

Now the designs PB used are all recycled from OSM lineart and do not appear in the episodes proper (ie story block, not the credits). OFF-HAND, they might appear in the open/end credits during the "battloid charge" in a blink and you miss it type deal. As the designs are recycled (and largely used in 1E) there is a good possibility they where originally intended as "battloids" with PB altering their size to be used as stand-ins for the PA filler in 2E (similar to what they did in 1E using some of the designs for EBSIS RDF-scale battloids and using some of the rest as additional battloids ignoring PA).

As for their size. I am just going to say its a gray area. Megaversally PB considers anything under 12ft tall (generally) to be Power Armor and anything taller to be a robot vehicle, even if it might be more accurate to consider it a robot due to placement and such (a few examples exist in Rifts, and there are a few exceptions to the PA or 'Bot size but those are based on the operators not being human-ish sized). ASC PA also appear to be modeled after the two Zentreadi suits (which are certainly much larger than their operators). Now weather a 12ft tall unit in the real world would be the cutoff point or not I don't know or if size would even matter (it might come down to control setups).

I don't remember that but it's been a while since I watched.

I think the PA we have for the ASC is more a place holder than actual PA. To me, they just don't fit as PA.

Palladium do class things by size but I think it's the controls that should determine what they are. The Zentraedi suits being a weird in between.

Doesn't the Cyclone use more fuel in PA Mode than in Motorcycle?

Nothing exists in canon to indicate this AFAIK (I know in the OSM operating duration in PA is listed in units of time and motorcycle in distance units with MC operating longer time if you do the math), and as far as RAW goes for the PB RPGs they don't use such an approach either (they DO mention heavy use drains the cell faster). It might also be worth considering that a veritech power armor might place additional restrictions on powerplant size and efficiency that its non-transformable counterparts don't have to contend with especially if we factor in mission requirements. For example, the Cyclone due to its survival mecha role has to fit in a certain volume (on the Alpha that's about 1,000L/1cubic-meter), which might require going with an undersized engine to fit in that cavity that is okay for MC mode but has to run with "afterburners" to get the desired performance in PA mode where its non-transformable counterpart might use a properly size engine that doesn't need to use "afterburners" to get the same performance.

Well, in the 1E books flying did use Protoculture 3 times as fast. If you figure in the speed differences between MC and PA modes the MC has a much greater range. I'm not finding anything like that in 2E but it would make sense if MC had greater range than PA. The PA working on afterburners does make sense too as there's more parts moving that require power. Although, there are time I wonder if the Cyclone is actually a Power Armor or not. If it is, then that would mean the Body Armor is a unpowered power armor until the Cyclone gets attached to it. If not, then PA mode is really flight pack with weapons system mode.

[ShadowLogan]

I do remember 1E having penalties but I don't remember if 2E did or not.

Maybe they don't because it's heavy and awkward to use?

2E does not, unless it was added in with a later printing of the books. And Palladium set the weight of the CADS at 25lbs, so yeah heavy and awkward to use.

Going by the OCCs in the RPG it would seem that UEEF does use some infantry. I would also think the everyone has mecha thing would depend on what time period. I think there'd be more infantry before power armor and cyclones are perfected then after.

In 1E, I don't think the REF used conventional infantry as I said, everyone was either a mecha pilot (VF, Destroid, Zentreadi, Cyclone) or a support class (BME, Communications, Field Scientist, Military Specialist) who could take mecha piloting (aside from the BME). The Sentinels likely did since they lacked mecha (in those books).

Now in 2E, while the OCC names have changed to include various references to Infantry, they still retain that Power Armor Infantry as the generic Infantry/Enlisted man starts with Pilot Ground Veritechs as part of the OCC and every MOS has an Mecha Combat (something every Military Specialist has that combo by default and Technical Officer, which fills the support roles doesn't have them. That was just looking at the main book, IINM the mess that is UEEF Marines follows that more or less with their largely redundant OCCs.

I think the PA we have for the ASC is more a place holder than actual PA. To me, they just don't fit as PA.

In a very real sense the lineart for the Power Armor likely can be considered a Place-Holder for representation of the unit since they likely where originally a battloid. So if you don't like the "look" you can always swap it out for something else (you can probably then also justify a size alteration).

[glitterboy2098]

Given the PB stats for most of them are closer to the battloid size than human, I've been assuming that they are classed as PA due to the controls.. that they have a forcefeedback motion control system frame instead of a fighter style cockpit like battloids and destroids. Think the AMP suit from Avatar. So the pilot is fully in the chest, but it is still being "worn" rather than "steered".
The only ones that seem to be a conventional "power augmented body armor" style PA are the aquatic and arctic specialized ones.

[Sambot]

Going by the OCCs in the RPG it would seem that UEEF does use some infantry. I would also think the everyone has mecha thing would depend on what time period. I think there'd be more infantry before power armor and cyclones are perfected then after.

In 1E, I don't think the REF used conventional infantry as I said, everyone was either a mecha pilot (VF, Destroid, Zentreadi, Cyclone) or a support class (BME, Communications, Field Scientist, Military Specialist) who could take mecha piloting (aside from the BME). The Sentinels likely did since they lacked mecha (in those books).

Now in 2E, while the OCC names have changed to include various references to Infantry, they still retain that Power Armor Infantry as the generic Infantry/Enlisted man starts with Pilot Ground Veritechs as part of the OCC and every MOS has an Mecha Combat (something every Military Specialist has that combo by default and Technical Officer, which fills the support roles doesn't have them. That was just looking at the main book, IINM the mess that is UEEF Marines follows that more or less with their largely redundant OCCs.

That they can pilot mecha doesn't mean that they do so. Some of those MOSs would be pretty difficult to do on a motorcycle. Some wouldn't be too easy in a power armor either. I also like to think that only the top of the class would be regularly assigned a mecha, the middle of the class assigned mecha as needed, and the bottom of the class given a rifle. Like the Navy and Marines having lots of pilots but few operate from carriers. Plus the Cyclone wasn't ready when the REF left for Tyrol. At least in the books. They had motorcycles or hovercyles but the Cyclones came later. Then they would need to phase them in. So I believe there were infantry on foot for at least a while. And I would think they'd continue to use them later. Just in fewer numbers.

I think the PA we have for the ASC is more a place holder than actual PA. To me, they just don't fit as PA.

In a very real sense the lineart for the Power Armor likely can be considered a Place-Holder for representation of the unit since they likely where originally a battloid. So if you don't like the "look" you can always swap it out for something else (you can probably then also justify a size alteration).

The line art probably is a placeholder but I'm going to treat them all as Battloids. Power Armor doesn't really fit. Plus outside of 1E's Strike Force we don't see any human sized power armor until the Cyclones were produced. The ASC having them doesn't seem to fit when the REF didn't even have them.

Given the PB stats for most of them are closer to the battloid size than human, I've been assuming that they are classed as PA due to the controls.. that they have a forcefeedback motion control system frame instead of a fighter style cockpit like battloids and destroids. Think the AMP suit from Avatar. So the pilot is fully in the chest, but it is still being "worn" rather than "steered".
The only ones that seem to be a conventional "power augmented body armor" style PA are the aquatic and arctic specialized ones.

I suppose that could be but why have two different control set ups? Also, if the ASC had Power Armor would the scientists have been so surprised by how Bioroids were operated?

[glitterboy2098]

Given the PB stats for most of them are closer to the battloid size than human, I've been assuming that they are classed as PA due to the controls.. that they have a forcefeedback motion control system frame instead of a fighter style cockpit like battloids and destroids. Think the AMP suit from Avatar. So the pilot is fully in the chest, but it is still being "worn" rather than "steered".
The only ones that seem to be a conventional "power augmented body armor" style PA are the aquatic and arctic specialized ones.

I suppose that could be but why have two different control set ups? Also, if the ASC had Power Armor would the scientists have been so surprised by how Bioroids were operated?

a force feedback pilot frame control set up would give a mecha more precise control than one where the pilot is manipulating joysticks and throttles. the ASC 'large power armors' are specialists operating in enviroments where that sort of precision would be beneficial, and the more computerized steering of a larger mecha might face significant challenges (the basilisk in terrain dominated by a mix of rugged rocky ground and soft shifting sand, the manticore in zero gravity enviroments, the Triton in the mud and standing water of swamps and marshes, and the Unicorn in built up urban areas) while the 'powered body armor' suits are used in enviroments where their small size is benificial (the fenris in arctic enviroments of snow and ice where the footing of larger mecha would be very uncertain, and the kraken underwater and specialized in boarding ships)


as for bioroids, no because the bioroids are not power armor or AMP suit type control set ups. in PA and AMPsuits, the pilot physically moves and the mecha reads that movement and amplifies it when moving the mecha's own limbs.
in a bioroid the pilot does not move at all, controlling the mecha's movements mentally via an interface helmet. it is basically a man-machine interface, with the pilot literally 'becoming' the bioroid as if it is their body, rather than 'piloting' it in the traditional sense.

[ShadowLogan]

That they can pilot mecha doesn't mean that they do so. Some of those MOSs would be pretty difficult to do on a motorcycle. Some wouldn't be too easy in a power armor either. I also like to think that only the top of the class would be regularly assigned a mecha, the middle of the class assigned mecha as needed, and the bottom of the class given a rifle. Like the Navy and Marines having lots of pilots but few operate from carriers. Plus the Cyclone wasn't ready when the REF left for Tyrol. At least in the books. They had motorcycles or hovercyles but the Cyclones came later. Then they would need to phase them in. So I believe there were infantry on foot for at least a while. And I would think they'd continue to use them later. Just in fewer numbers.

True timeline placement is going to be a factor, but the fact is in game terms all the "infantry" OCCs are qualified Power Armor pilots regardless. Actually, what we know is that the -03x/-04x/-05x series of Cyclones where not in use when the UEEF/REF left for Tirol, given the numbering scheme it is possible that a -01x/-02x series of Cyclones could have been in use (something I believe UEEF Marines goes with). Plus the ASC PA is less complicated so it would make sense they might be developed first as an intermediate step between full-scale battloids and just-slightly-bigger PA.

The line art probably is a placeholder but I'm going to treat them all as Battloids. Power Armor doesn't really fit. Plus outside of 1E's Strike Force we don't see any human sized power armor until the Cyclones were produced. The ASC having them doesn't seem to fit when the REF didn't even have them.

Weather the RAW sizes should allow them to be PA or not isn't really open to debate IMHO.

According to a quick internet search the TALLEST Cosplay outfit(s) comes in at 2.69m, a tad short of the 3.#m of the ASC PAs but it shows you can have a human operate a "suit" that comes pretty close (and that is w/o robotic augmentation). A quick search on Youtube turned up a Warhammer 40K suit that claims to be 10ft/3m tall and a slightly shorter Hulk-Buster from Marvel (I've also seen a few Transformers to):

in a bioroid the pilot does not move at all, controlling the mecha's movements mentally via an interface helmet. it is basically a man-machine interface, with the pilot literally 'becoming' the bioroid as if it is their body, rather than 'piloting' it in the traditional sense.

I can't attest to the UEEF's Bioroid, but the Bioroids the Masters use is shown to be used w/o a helmet on a few occasions (granted all by Zor Prime). The Masters Bioroid Pilots (assuming the autopsied one is normal) had bioelectric device implanted in his solar plexus (identified in dialogue in the Autopsy Breifing, IINM though not an ideal place), so there could be additional ones (implied I think in the briefing on the Green Bioroid design mentions a network of biological diodes, plus we have the neuro-sensor in ZP that isn't the solar plexus).

[Sambot]

Given the PB stats for most of them are closer to the battloid size than human, I've been assuming that they are classed as PA due to the controls.. that they have a forcefeedback motion control system frame instead of a fighter style cockpit like battloids and destroids. Think the AMP suit from Avatar. So the pilot is fully in the chest, but it is still being "worn" rather than "steered".
The only ones that seem to be a conventional "power augmented body armor" style PA are the aquatic and arctic specialized ones.

I suppose that could be but why have two different control set ups? Also, if the ASC had Power Armor would the scientists have been so surprised by how Bioroids were operated?

a force feedback pilot frame control set up would give a mecha more precise control than one where the pilot is manipulating joysticks and throttles. the ASC 'large power armors' are specialists operating in enviroments where that sort of precision would be beneficial, and the more computerized steering of a larger mecha might face significant challenges (the basilisk in terrain dominated by a mix of rugged rocky ground and soft shifting sand, the manticore in zero gravity enviroments, the Triton in the mud and standing water of swamps and marshes, and the Unicorn in built up urban areas) while the 'powered body armor' suits are used in enviroments where their small size is benificial (the fenris in arctic enviroments of snow and ice where the footing of larger mecha would be very uncertain, and the kraken underwater and specialized in boarding ships)


as for bioroids, no because the bioroids are not power armor or AMP suit type control set ups. in PA and AMPsuits, the pilot physically moves and the mecha reads that movement and amplifies it when moving the mecha's own limbs.
in a bioroid the pilot does not move at all, controlling the mecha's movements mentally via an interface helmet. it is basically a man-machine interface, with the pilot literally 'becoming' the bioroid as if it is their body, rather than 'piloting' it in the traditional sense.

I don't think so. The VF-1 was capable of not only carrying people without crushing them, it could put on a Zentraedi uniform, and it didn't need that kind of equipment.

The Biorods are so advanced that the pilot can think what they want and the machine does it but it's still operating from the pilot's mental signals to his/her body. Only in this case the pilot's limbs don't actually have to move.

That they can pilot mecha doesn't mean that they do so. Some of those MOSs would be pretty difficult to do on a motorcycle. Some wouldn't be too easy in a power armor either. I also like to think that only the top of the class would be regularly assigned a mecha, the middle of the class assigned mecha as needed, and the bottom of the class given a rifle. Like the Navy and Marines having lots of pilots but few operate from carriers. Plus the Cyclone wasn't ready when the REF left for Tyrol. At least in the books. They had motorcycles or hovercyles but the Cyclones came later. Then they would need to phase them in. So I believe there were infantry on foot for at least a while. And I would think they'd continue to use them later. Just in fewer numbers.

True timeline placement is going to be a factor, but the fact is in game terms all the "infantry" OCCs are qualified Power Armor pilots regardless. Actually, what we know is that the -03x/-04x/-05x series of Cyclones where not in use when the UEEF/REF left for Tirol, given the numbering scheme it is possible that a -01x/-02x series of Cyclones could have been in use (something I believe UEEF Marines goes with). Plus the ASC PA is less complicated so it would make sense they might be developed first as an intermediate step between full-scale battloids and just-slightly-bigger PA.

The UEEF Marines use of Cyclones start with the 10x series. I think anything before that would have been non-converting and/or a bare bones prototype. It's possible the ASC PA were less complicated and came before the Cyclones but if they did, why didn't the UEEF take some with them?

The line art probably is a placeholder but I'm going to treat them all as Battloids. Power Armor doesn't really fit. Plus outside of 1E's Strike Force we don't see any human sized power armor until the Cyclones were produced. The ASC having them doesn't seem to fit when the REF didn't even have them.

Weather the RAW sizes should allow them to be PA or not isn't really open to debate IMHO.

According to a quick internet search the TALLEST Cosplay outfit(s) comes in at 2.69m, a tad short of the 3.#m of the ASC PAs but it shows you can have a human operate a "suit" that comes pretty close (and that is w/o robotic augmentation). A quick search on Youtube turned up a Warhammer 40K suit that claims to be 10ft/3m tall and a slightly shorter Hulk-Buster from Marvel (I've also seen a few Transformers to):

It isn't just the size, it's the art. Most of the ASC PA far closer to Battloids in design, and looking at the shoulder and hip joints, there's no way a human's body can "wear" them. The Kraken is the only one that looks like it could be worn.

[ShadowLogan]

The UEEF Marines use of Cyclones start with the 10x series. I think anything before that would have been non-converting and/or a bare bones prototype. It's possible the ASC PA were less complicated and came before the Cyclones but if they did, why didn't the UEEF take some with them?

I think you mean -01x series. The Cyclones have a weird numbering scheme for some reason with a leading ZERO that has only ever been used with the Destroid designs AFAIK. It's been suggested (in the fandom somewhere) that the last number in the Cyclone VR-### is a block number, so the VR-038 would be the VR-03 Block 8 for everything to make sense. Personally, I find the numbering scheme convoluted, but that's what you get when you try to cram in OSM "conformity" whenever you can.

We know the ASC PA predate the UEEF departure. The Unicron was first fielded in 2013 per 2E RPG text (SDF-1 wasn't destroyed until early 2014 for context). To answer your question about why the UEEF didn't take any likely comes down to several reasons both in and out of universe:
-its suggested that the UEEF and ASC didn't overlap much in terms of hardware based on what little we see (now some depictions do have more overlap than others, the novels and comics had the Logan and VHTs present and the 1E RPG did allow various ASC hardware including the Battloids but no PA since they didn't have PA at the time, someone familiar with the Sentinels scrips might be able to add more to that)
-when they did the UEEF Marines they wanted as many "NEW" Toys pulled from the OSM (or Sentinels) instead of adapting existing hardware like ASC PA to fill out the TO&E. Granted some of the stuff comes from the IMAI files.

It isn't just the size, it's the art. Most of the ASC PA far closer to Battloids in design, and looking at the shoulder and hip joints, there's no way a human's body can "wear" them. The Kraken is the only one that looks like it could be worn.

I don't really agree that they can't be "worn" in the hip-joint or shoulder-joint area. We don't know the criteria the setting uses to establish if something is a Power Armor or not (outside of PB, how HG defines it for RT...). For instance, how many of the limbs have to be "worn" to some extent by the pilot? Do they all have to be or can you get by with just one set? Does it stop being a Power Armor if one (or more) of the limbs is purely robotic in nature (for example a tail)? What about how the unit's strength rating is handled (Cyclones give a bonus to PS and change the type, leading to a wide variety, but the Zentreadi PAs, like the ASC units, use a fixed score)? Is it a "height" ratio? Is it a mass/weight thing? Is it purely, there is no room for a secondary operator(s)/passenger(s) (ignoring the issue of mix sizes like giant Zentreadi with human)?

If the issue is the line-art, in this case I would say just ignore the lineart. What they would look like afterward then is upto you (restylized versions of the lineart ver or out right replacement with something else). I say this because we know the suits where originally supposed to be "battloid" scale. I am not saying you can't turn them back into Battloids, but then you have to consider if you want to retain them as some type of micro-battloid (with ASC battloids being "mini" compared to the RDF) or restore them to their original size (mini) and all the work that would entail.

[Sambot]

The UEEF Marines use of Cyclones start with the 10x series. I think anything before that would have been non-converting and/or a bare bones prototype. It's possible the ASC PA were less complicated and came before the Cyclones but if they did, why didn't the UEEF take some with them?

I think you mean -01x series. The Cyclones have a weird numbering scheme for some reason with a leading ZERO that has only ever been used with the Destroid designs AFAIK. It's been suggested (in the fandom somewhere) that the last number in the Cyclone VR-### is a block number, so the VR-038 would be the VR-03 Block 8 for everything to make sense. Personally, I find the numbering scheme convoluted, but that's what you get when you try to cram in OSM "conformity" whenever you can.

Maybe? The lowest number I remember seeing for Cyclones is 010.

We know the ASC PA predate the UEEF departure. The Unicron was first fielded in 2013 per 2E RPG text (SDF-1 wasn't destroyed until early 2014 for context). To answer your question about why the UEEF didn't take any likely comes down to several reasons both in and out of universe:
-its suggested that the UEEF and ASC didn't overlap much in terms of hardware based on what little we see (now some depictions do have more overlap than others, the novels and comics had the Logan and VHTs present and the 1E RPG did allow various ASC hardware including the Battloids but no PA since they didn't have PA at the time, someone familiar with the Sentinels scrips might be able to add more to that)
-when they did the UEEF Marines they wanted as many "NEW" Toys pulled from the OSM (or Sentinels) instead of adapting existing hardware like ASC PA to fill out the TO&E. Granted some of the stuff comes from the IMAI files.

According to the new timeline. They didn't any originally and the first time I ever saw the Unicorn, and others, they were Battloids. So I'm going with Battloids.

I liked some of the new toys, except one Battloid with Cyclone helmet. But I was disappointed with the UEEF Marines book. I was hoping to see the Sentinels and Mospeada Destroid. Maybe some of the mecha from Strike Force and Return of the Masters (revised). I definitely hoped for more from the IMAI files. The Destroids and Battle Pods we got are kind of cool but don't fit with the older Cyclones. I think they would have fit better with Shadow Chronicles.

I understand why Palladium started with Shadow Chronicles but I wish they could have started with Macross and moved forward, including the Sentinels, and finished with Shadow Chronicles and fleshed it out more. Oh well. We can still include them if we want.

It isn't just the size, it's the art. Most of the ASC PA far closer to Battloids in design, and looking at the shoulder and hip joints, there's no way a human's body can "wear" them. The Kraken is the only one that looks like it could be worn.

I don't really agree that they can't be "worn" in the hip-joint or shoulder-joint area. We don't know the criteria the setting uses to establish if something is a Power Armor or not (outside of PB, how HG defines it for RT...). For instance, how many of the limbs have to be "worn" to some extent by the pilot? Do they all have to be or can you get by with just one set? Does it stop being a Power Armor if one (or more) of the limbs is purely robotic in nature (for example a tail)? What about how the unit's strength rating is handled (Cyclones give a bonus to PS and change the type, leading to a wide variety, but the Zentreadi PAs, like the ASC units, use a fixed score)? Is it a "height" ratio? Is it a mass/weight thing? Is it purely, there is no room for a secondary operator(s)/passenger(s) (ignoring the issue of mix sizes like giant Zentreadi with human)?

I think that if at least one set of limbs is doing the work, it can be called a Power Armor. That seems to be how Palladium does it to. Except for the Ulti-Max Power Armor, which is called Power Armor because of its size, even though it's all robotic. From the looks of the ASC PA their limbs are all robotic. The only possible exception may be the Kraken. That one I could see as a power armor but since we don't see anything like that in the show, I'm inclined to go with Battloid. If they're mechanical they'd use a fixed PS, unless specifically noted as being stronger or weaker. I would also go with single seats. The only two seater Mech I can remember seeing in ASC is Dana's VHT when she takes the intelligence agent for a ride. And I think that was more a fold down seat. I don't remember seeing a second one when her tank converts.

If the issue is the line-art, in this case I would say just ignore the lineart. What they would look like afterward then is upto you (restylized versions of the lineart ver or out right replacement with something else). I say this because we know the suits where originally supposed to be "battloid" scale. I am not saying you can't turn them back into Battloids, but then you have to consider if you want to retain them as some type of micro-battloid (with ASC battloids being "mini" compared to the RDF) or restore them to their original size (mini) and all the work that would entail.

I'm not sure what their OSM size was, or I'd use it. Otherwise, I just make them, roughly, the same size as the other ASC Battloids.

[ShadowLogan]

Maybe? The lowest number I remember seeing for Cyclones is 010.

As I was trying to explain the last digit in 010 is (fan) speculated to be a block number for the 01 model. IF that is the case it would go a long way in terms of avoiding the issue of having to come up with 57 iterations of the Cyclone, allowing it to be reduced down to 5 main variants with varying numbers of sub-variants.

According to the new timeline. They didn't any originally and the first time I ever saw the Unicorn, and others, they were Battloids. So I'm going with Battloids.

I agree the units where originally battloids in the 1E RPG. However, going back to the common/core aspect of Robotech (the TV Series) we know Power Armor design(s) existed per dialogue going back prior to 2029 (when the episode takes place based on various dialogue cues) but go sight unseen until the NG saga (for humans, when we get the Cyclone). So no matter how one wants to look at things, Power Armor designs exist in the setting. Visually what Palladium (and Harmony Gold) did was the minimum effort recycle existing designs (IINM that don't appear on screen*) instead of creating something new to represent them.

Then again PB could have just said/pushed that some/all of the ASC Bodyarmor is "power amplified body armor" treating the suits as exo-skeletons. Which would have avoided any potential issues with rescaling an existing design.

*In point of fact IIRC the only 3 non-transformable human battloids to appear fully on screen where the autonomous Golem, and the piloted Salamander and Cyclops Battloids. We see the back of a foot to another nt-Battloid to, though off hand I'm not sure what it is for. And I recently rewatched SDC:SC Anime (RT:TRM saga before it was edited into RT's 2nd act).

I think that if at least one set of limbs is doing the work, it can be called a Power Armor.

IMHO all of the ASC PA then can meet that distinction utilizing one or more set of limbs (arms, legs, and head). Especially considering we haven't seen the inside of the PA (either as an "X-Ray" view or how the operator gets inside).

That seems to be how Palladium does it to. Except for the Ulti-Max Power Armor, which is called Power Armor because of its size, even though it's all robotic.

I can think of few more Power Armor that fall here that are based purely on height like the ones that replicate the look of 'Raptor dinosaurs (found in both of the South American books). There are also PA that break that 12ft borderline they impose, but this is due to the pilot being a giant (Pogtalian Dragonslayer, IIRC there's another in Mercenaries for an NPC).

I'm not sure what their OSM size was, or I'd use it. Otherwise, I just make them, roughly, the same size as the other ASC Battloids.

They probably are the same approximate size as the other ASC Battloids in the OSM (intended for the Modelkit line).

[Sambot]

Maybe? The lowest number I remember seeing for Cyclones is 010.

As I was trying to explain the last digit in 010 is (fan) speculated to be a block number for the 01 model. IF that is the case it would go a long way in terms of avoiding the issue of having to come up with 57 iterations of the Cyclone, allowing it to be reduced down to 5 main variants with varying numbers of sub-variants.

The problem with that is that it ignores all the prototypes that came before the production model. Those prototypes being the early non-converting motorcycles that share the same parts. There's also a non converting Cyclone Power Armor in the IMAI Files. They've got to get those things right before blending them. And not all itineration's have to reach prototype stage. Many of those iterations could be paper only.

According to the new timeline. They didn't any originally and the first time I ever saw the Unicorn, and others, they were Battloids. So I'm going with Battloids.

I agree the units where originally battloids in the 1E RPG. However, going back to the common/core aspect of Robotech (the TV Series) we know Power Armor design(s) existed per dialogue going back prior to 2029 (when the episode takes place based on various dialogue cues) but go sight unseen until the NG saga (for humans, when we get the Cyclone). So no matter how one wants to look at things, Power Armor designs exist in the setting. Visually what Palladium (and Harmony Gold) did was the minimum effort recycle existing designs (IINM that don't appear on screen*) instead of creating something new to represent them.

Then again PB could have just said/pushed that some/all of the ASC Bodyarmor is "power amplified body armor" treating the suits as exo-skeletons. Which would have avoided any potential issues with rescaling an existing design.

*In point of fact IIRC the only 3 non-transformable human battloids to appear fully on screen where the autonomous Golem, and the piloted Salamander and Cyclops Battloids. We see the back of a foot to another nt-Battloid to, though off hand I'm not sure what it is for. And I recently rewatched SDC:SC Anime (RT:TRM saga before it was edited into RT's 2nd act).

Palladium and HG using Battloids as PA is a mistake just like using some for EBSIS Battloids. I could see the Kraken as a Power Armor, with different variations per branch but not the others.

I think that if at least one set of limbs is doing the work, it can be called a Power Armor.

IMHO all of the ASC PA then can meet that distinction utilizing one or more set of limbs (arms, legs, and head). Especially considering we haven't seen the inside of the PA (either as an "X-Ray" view or how the operator gets inside).

Nope. Out side of the Kraken they all clearly have mechanical limbs. There's no way a Human could get their limbs into them. That makes them Battloids.

That seems to be how Palladium does it to. Except for the Ulti-Max Power Armor, which is called Power Armor because of its size, even though it's all robotic.

I can think of few more Power Armor that fall here that are based purely on height like the ones that replicate the look of 'Raptor dinosaurs (found in both of the South American books). There are also PA that break that 12ft borderline they impose, but this is due to the pilot being a giant (Pogtalian Dragonslayer, IIRC there's another in Mercenaries for an NPC).

Nice catch. I forgot about those and looked them up. They are more robot than power armor. Only one is do to height though and it's fluff says it's robotic. The others are 10 feet or less tall but one says it has robotic legs and the other's text refers to it as a robot. So they're PA based on size and strength but are piloted like robots. And Piloting Power Armor and Robots really should be two separate skills.

I'm not sure what their OSM size was, or I'd use it. Otherwise, I just make them, roughly, the same size as the other ASC Battloids.

They probably are the same approximate size as the other ASC Battloids in the OSM (intended for the Modelkit line).

That was my guess.

[ShadowLogan]

The problem with that is that it ignores all the prototypes that came before the production model. Those prototypes being the early non-converting motorcycles that share the same parts. There's also a non converting Cyclone Power Armor in the IMAI Files. They've got to get those things right before blending them. And not all itineration's have to reach prototype stage. Many of those iterations could be paper only.

You are assuming the early non-coverting designs are going to be accounted for w/n the Cyclone designation scheme itself. If we look at the 2E RPG, the MR-40 which is essentially an early non-coverting design is supposed to part of the Cyclone lineage BUT does not appear to be part of the Cyclone designation scheme. Even the nt-Cyclone PA (CBA-07) from Marines/IMAI doesn't appear to be accounted for in it.

Prototypes, EMD, etc can also exist within the scheme without pushing for their own individual allocated slot number assignment. And Paper iterations don't always result in a slot # being "reserved" for them.

Honestly I think it is a lot easier to account for 5 main variants (and unknown number of sub-variants) than to have to try and workout the 50+ that would be required otherwise.

Nope. Out side of the Kraken they all clearly have mechanical limbs. There's no way a Human could get their limbs into them. That makes them Battloids.

All of the ASC PA heads could be "helmet" locations. And those cosplay suits (I previously mentioned) appear to have similar height/shoulder width as the (slightly larger) ASC PA suits are cited at which IMHO allows for it. Also given the Kraken is the same basic size as the other ASC PA, if it can do it then so can the others.

[Sambot]

The problem with that is that it ignores all the prototypes that came before the production model. Those prototypes being the early non-converting motorcycles that share the same parts. There's also a non converting Cyclone Power Armor in the IMAI Files. They've got to get those things right before blending them. And not all itineration's have to reach prototype stage. Many of those iterations could be paper only.

You are assuming the early non-coverting designs are going to be accounted for w/n the Cyclone designation scheme itself. If we look at the 2E RPG, the MR-40 which is essentially an early non-coverting design is supposed to part of the Cyclone lineage BUT does not appear to be part of the Cyclone designation scheme. Even the nt-Cyclone PA (CBA-07) from Marines/IMAI doesn't appear to be accounted for in it.

Prototypes, EMD, etc can also exist within the scheme without pushing for their own individual allocated slot number assignment. And Paper iterations don't always result in a slot # being "reserved" for them.

Honestly I think it is a lot easier to account for 5 main variants (and unknown number of sub-variants) than to have to try and workout the 50+ that would be required otherwise.

Not really. They could have started off as separate projects that got merged into one. That would account for why the numbers don't line up. Or whomever did the naming wasn't paying too close attention.

True and sometimes a different project will get the number so numbers will appear to skip.

Probably. I think that presumes many of those 50 even got to the prototype stage. Some may only exist on paper and were revised before prototyping could start. Some could also just be a reworking and renaming of an existing prototype, so one prototype ends up covering several paper designs.

Nope. Out side of the Kraken they all clearly have mechanical limbs. There's no way a Human could get their limbs into them. That makes them Battloids.

All of the ASC PA heads could be "helmet" locations. And those cosplay suits (I previously mentioned) appear to have similar height/shoulder width as the (slightly larger) ASC PA suits are cited at which IMHO allows for it. Also given the Kraken is the same basic size as the other ASC PA, if it can do it then so can the others.

If you're just going by sizes written down on, maybe. I'm looking at the art and a couple, could maybe be helmets but not all of them. I think Battloids were shoved into the role of Power Armor to either go along with the voice over or because someone thought the ASC should have Power Armor but didn't want to design any. Really their Body Armor could be Powered Armor.

[ShadowLogan]

If you're just going by sizes written down on, maybe. I'm looking at the art and a couple, could maybe be helmets but not all of them. I think Battloids were shoved into the role of Power Armor to either go along with the voice over or because someone thought the ASC should have Power Armor but didn't want to design any. Really their Body Armor could be Powered Armor.

By RAW size yes they can fit, not maybe. I wouldn't use the face plate or even perceived articulation of the "head" area to determine if it would work as a helmet for a suit (space suits and diving suits exist that have a helmet that doesn't move so you could have a PA head w/o articulation).

You can't say someone thought the ASC should have PA, the dialogue* establishes they have some form of Power Armor technology they are familiar with. What we don't know is what form that technology was supposed to take for humans in 2029. We DO know they reused artwork for battloids to represent PA to fill this gap, choosing battloids that did not appear in the show proper (the Triton appears only in the credits at Battloid scale). I suspect that HG mandated the recycling of the lineart instead of commissioning the design of new material to represent the PA as a cost saving option (who originally wanted PA fleshed out in the TO&E in the 2E RPG I don't know).

*

Spoiler:

From Episode 45 "Metal Fire" Dana specifically states when summarizing the bioroid operation after Louie's demonstration: You mean it's kind of like power amplified body armor

Now in the OSM equivalent Episode 8 (also called "Metal Fire") the scene plays out similar to in RT, but doesn't mention the power amplified body armor as an explanation. So it being a holdover line from the OSM doesn't work per say, though the Bioroids in the OSM could be an evolution of human body armor in the setting since the Zor are timewarped human settlers of Glorie in background material so it would make sense Zor technology is derived from human technology

[Sambot]

If you're just going by sizes written down on, maybe. I'm looking at the art and a couple, could maybe be helmets but not all of them. I think Battloids were shoved into the role of Power Armor to either go along with the voice over or because someone thought the ASC should have Power Armor but didn't want to design any. Really their Body Armor could be Powered Armor.

By RAW size yes they can fit, not maybe. I wouldn't use the face plate or even perceived articulation of the "head" area to determine if it would work as a helmet for a suit (space suits and diving suits exist that have a helmet that doesn't move so you could have a PA head w/o articulation).

Only a couple have helmets that don't appear to move and as you point out below, we see it as a Battloid during the end credits. And at least one has a neck that would prevent a person's head from being in the helmet.

You can't say someone thought the ASC should have PA, the dialogue* establishes they have some form of Power Armor technology they are familiar with. What we don't know is what form that technology was supposed to take for humans in 2029. We DO know they reused artwork for battloids to represent PA to fill this gap, choosing battloids that did not appear in the show proper (the Triton appears only in the credits at Battloid scale). I suspect that HG mandated the recycling of the lineart instead of commissioning the design of new material to represent the PA as a cost saving option (who originally wanted PA fleshed out in the TO&E in the 2E RPG I don't know).

That PA wasn't mentioned in the original means that it was added. Also, he says "power amplified body armor" I'm not sure that even qualifies as Power Armor. It's certainly not a 10+ foot tall robot. It's body armor. It's worn, not piloted.

I'm pretty sure line art was ordered to be recycled. But from what Louie said, I think it'd be more likely that at least some ASC body armors have powered enhancements than being actual Power Armor.

And yes, the OSM Bioroids could have evolved from them as they still rely on impulse signals sent to the pilot's muscles. Only the limbs are completely robotic.

[glitterboy2098]

the order to recycle the line art game from HG. at the time they were not allowing *any* original mecha to be added to the game. and the ASC stuff didn't have any info other than art, and that was limited. there is almost no preproduction or post-production materials for southern cross, and what little merchandise that did get made in japan was either focused on the "hero" mecha or varied so wildly in quality to be useless. i don't know if it was HG's or PB's decision to make mecha like the unicorn into PA, but i think that it's largely a pointless debate when the topic is potential future Robotech mecha.

[ShadowLogan]

That PA wasn't mentioned in the original means that it was added. Also, he says "power amplified body armor" I'm not sure that even qualifies as Power Armor. It's certainly not a 10+ foot tall robot. It's body armor. It's worn, not piloted.

I'm pretty sure line art was ordered to be recycled. But from what Louie said, I think it'd be more likely that at least some ASC body armors have powered enhancements than being actual Power Armor.

And yes, the OSM Bioroids could have evolved from them as they still rely on impulse signals sent to the pilot's muscles. Only the limbs are completely robotic.

Well, if we go by the original dialogue, lots of stuff was changed in TRM saga. It doesn't prove anything with regard to Robotech if its dialogue changed from the original OSM. Trying to only allow changes to dialogue that allowed the 3 OSMs to be integrated from RT doesn't really work either (I know some adaptions change the dialogue between English and Japanese in more "faithful" adaptions).

I'm on the fence about "power amplified body armor" really if it refers to an oversized mecha suit or something ultra compact. Offhand I don't recall how the Zentreadi PAs are identified in the dialogue, we might be considering them PA due to supporting media. No one in NG refers to the Cyclone's battle mode as a "Power Armor" either (at best you have Armor in the dialogue IIRC, and it's been too long since I read the NG novels to recall), nor do I think there is any dialogue for the Invid Urban Enforcers in terms of classification (we also have the Bioroid Terminators in TRM due to the 2E RPG). Since we don't have an onscreen example to connect it to in TRM things could go either way, or both ways depending on how encompassing the terminology was/is intended to be. Plus it might be worth considering word usage, just because it isn't referred to as a "power armor" specifically doesn't mean it can't be (look at the 1986 Transformers The Movie, with the Exosuits Spike and Daniel wore, or when they introduced the Head/Target Masters in 1987 with the Nebulians using robotic exosuits built from parts of the Cybertronians), even in Anime there might be instances of not using a term you might expect (Bubblegum Crisis has its Hardsuits and Battlemovers for example, one of which would be considered PA and the other a battloid-esque mecha...).

[Sambot]

the order to recycle the line art game from GW. at the time they were not allowing *any* original mecha to be added to the game. and the ASC stuff didn't have any info other than art, and that was limited. there is almost no preproduction or post-production materials for southern cross, and what little merchandise that did get made in japan was either focused on the "hero" mecha or varied so wildly in quality to be useless. i don't know if it was GW's or PB's decision to make mecha like the unicorn into PA, but i think that it's largely a pointless debate when the topic is potential future Robotech mecha.

GW?

That PA wasn't mentioned in the original means that it was added. Also, he says "power amplified body armor" I'm not sure that even qualifies as Power Armor. It's certainly not a 10+ foot tall robot. It's body armor. It's worn, not piloted.

I'm pretty sure line art was ordered to be recycled. But from what Louie said, I think it'd be more likely that at least some ASC body armors have powered enhancements than being actual Power Armor.

And yes, the OSM Bioroids could have evolved from them as they still rely on impulse signals sent to the pilot's muscles. Only the limbs are completely robotic.

Well, if we go by the original dialogue, lots of stuff was changed in TRM saga. It doesn't prove anything with regard to Robotech if its dialogue changed from the original OSM. Trying to only allow changes to dialogue that allowed the 3 OSMs to be integrated from RT doesn't really work either (I know some adaptions change the dialogue between English and Japanese in more "faithful" adaptions).

I'm on the fence about "power amplified body armor" really if it refers to an oversized mecha suit or something ultra compact. Offhand I don't recall how the Zentreadi PAs are identified in the dialogue, we might be considering them PA due to supporting media. No one in NG refers to the Cyclone's battle mode as a "Power Armor" either (at best you have Armor in the dialogue IIRC, and it's been too long since I read the NG novels to recall), nor do I think there is any dialogue for the Invid Urban Enforcers in terms of classification (we also have the Bioroid Terminators in TRM due to the 2E RPG). Since we don't have an onscreen example to connect it to in TRM things could go either way, or both ways depending on how encompassing the terminology was/is intended to be. Plus it might be worth considering word usage, just because it isn't referred to as a "power armor" specifically doesn't mean it can't be (look at the 1986 Transformers The Movie, with the Exosuits Spike and Daniel wore, or when they introduced the Head/Target Masters in 1987 with the Nebulians using robotic exosuits built from parts of the Cybertronians), even in Anime there might be instances of not using a term you might expect (Bubblegum Crisis has its Hardsuits and Battlemovers for example, one of which would be considered PA and the other a battloid-esque mecha...).

There is a difference between adapting and putting in things that were never there.

They key words though are body armor. That's worn, not piloted. Power armor is also worn. That's why it tires out the person wearing it. I don't recall the Zentraedi suits ever being called anything. The Male I can see being a power armor as their legs are in the legs. The Female would be a robot as her limbs are inside a cockpit, not the mech's limbs. The Invid Mecha is hard to define as their bodies can be altered. It could be a power armor or it could just be robotic. The Transfomer's Exosuit is also hard to define as it changes depending on the animation. Some scenes it's clearly human sized. In others is bigger and more robotic. The others are all Human sized and are worn.

Since Louie says "power amplified body armor" I would look at all the body armors the ASC corps wear and try to determine which might be power amplified. They could even power amplify all the ASC body armor and it'd be better than forcing animated battloids into being power armor.

[glitterboy2098]

sorry, brain fart, HG. had been talking with someone about warhammer 40k stuff prior to posting that.


and i would reiterate that arguing over whether making some of the less defined mecha from southern cross into power armor instead of large mecha is largely pointless when it comes to the question of the thread, which is what future sequel installments of the robotech franchise might include. for better or for worse, the southern cross's mecha in general are pretty much technologically a dead end in the setting. be they veritech, piloted mecha, or power armor. we probably won't see follow on for them, since in settign they've been out of production for over 15 years by the time that Shadow Chronicles starts, and they probably won't see resurrection. (especially as a number of the harmony gold creative team seem to actively dislike that portion of the show)

for better or worse, future installments are almost certainly going to be growing out of the technology base seen in New Generation and Shadow Chronicles. that is, the UEEF mecha and systems.