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Okay,

we have these enemy mecha that show up in Jack Baker's simulator fight that are a type of miniaturized Battlepod (~4.8m in height). We know they were planned mecha for The Sentinels for Breetai and his forces to use. However, here's a thought: what if the TBP-Z1 and OBP-Z2 are, in fact, mecha utilized by The Disciples of Zor? We know that such an enemy exists because The Masters mention in them in episode #29 as enemies who may have begun a new offensive against Dolza (to explain 4 million Zentraedi ships evaporating). This would give us a baseline unit for the enemy for the early REF to fight. The same could be said for the SDF-3 and SDF-8 designs, being DoZ ships that the Earth forces fought against. The Battlesuits from the Robotech Remix comics could be their equivalents of the Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadlunn-Rau. There are other designs from over the years that could be repurposed as well.

You know... That might be a better idea than the "early prototype" fluff I had written for our own game. At the very least, a giant variant could have inspired the other.
(Because I hardly see dissident Zentraedi having the option to remain giant micronize on their own. And because I don't see why entirely non-t'sen groups would actually copy a regult design that close to the original.)

i see two issues with this..
first, the Sentinels art for it has explicitly human style arm design, matching that of the art for several of the destroids slated to appear in the sentinels show.

second, are we sure humanity even was aware the Disciples of Zor exist? the only mention made of them in the show was the masters talking about detecting the SDF-1's shield overload emission from the end of the 1st war. Exedor talks about a conflict where the zentreadi fought their creators, which might be a recounting of a war against the disciples of zor, but not only is he vague about the nature of the enemy but he presents it as a fragmented, poorly remembered event so far in zentreadi history that little is known about it. which suggests that if that was a war with the DoZ, the masters made an effort to wipe out the details from the records and memory of the zentreadi, likely because the DoZ had their own zentreadi and knowledge of that fact would threaten the master's control over them.

i would argue that the simulator battle could easily have just been a case of throwing VF pilots against some of the nastier possible enemies. IRL militaries do this all the time, setting simulator opponents to use the upper end of estimated performance for the depicted equipment, or using their own gear to simulate opponents where not enough is known about what will be faced.

glitterboy2098 wrote:second, are we sure humanity even was aware the Disciples of Zor exist? the only mention made of them in the show was the masters talking about detecting the SDF-1's shield overload emission from the end of the 1st war.

There are options though:
1. Ep36 has Gloval mentioning Robotech Forces speeding away to their homeworld to Lisa during her assignment briefing. This might be a reference to the Zentreadi (Khyron) in what they think should happen, but it could be another faction. I do doubt this, but the way Gloval worded it leaves some wiggle room I think.
2. DoZ are lumped in the generic Space Pirate faction (mentioned early in TRM)
3. They encountered them during their colonization conflicts (mentioned in AotSC) and/or during their preliminary surveys for the Pioneer Mission
4. They are a faction of "Micronized Zentreadi" that Leonard mentions in TRM saga that humanity seems to have encountered across the universe.

I can get quotes for #1, #2, and #4 if want them I just don't have them handy at the moment.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i see two issues with this..
first, the Sentinels art for it has explicitly human style arm design, matching that of the art for several of the destroids slated to appear in the sentinels show.

[...]

Exedor talks about a conflict where the zentreadi fought their creators, which might be a recounting of a war against the disciples of zor, but not only is he vague about the nature of the enemy but he presents it as a fragmented, poorly remembered event so far in zentreadi history that little is known about it. which suggests that if that was a war with the DoZ, the masters made an effort to wipe out the details from the records and memory of the zentreadi, likely because the DoZ had their own zentreadi and knowledge of that fact would threaten the master's control over them.

So it would be entirely plausible that the idea of a battlepod with arms would originate in legends of ancient enemies that the Zentraedi could want to reclaim as their own image, now that they've found out a culture of their own. It would also indicate, through the RNU's logic, that the DoZ might have been in better harmony with the protoculture, building more of a humanoid shape in their mechas. Mind you, these would then have to be re-designed and built by mostly human engineer, which means that what we see in the simulator wouldn't be an exact reconstruction.
Thus, if one wanted to imply the original in a game, the arms might get more in tone with the Nousjadeul-Ger or Queadlauun-Rau, or even something akin to tomahawk or officer battlepods cannon arms.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i would argue that the simulator battle could easily have just been a case of throwing VF pilots against some of the nastier possible enemies. IRL militaries do this all the time, setting simulator opponents to use the upper end of estimated performance for the depicted equipment, or using their own gear to simulate opponents where not enough is known about what will be faced.

Also true. Somewhat the theory I had taken when writing them up for our own group, adding that the version seen in the simulator was the early planned prototype for the new Z series battlepod, which never truly entered large scale production. That opened the opportunity for the zentraedi pilot to test them before entering the later stage of production, and their own piloting skills could then be used to program the sims for UEEF pilots with real data. Eventually, that prototype mostly served to point out what could be improved in the design, leading to the 2nd ed. variant.

personally, i'm planning to ignore the "there were no full sized zents in the UEEF" bit, and assume that the UEEF had along a "free zentreadi fleet" allies type thing, not part of the UEEF proper but operating in concert. (which also drew away a large amount of the less die hard malcontents from earth, giving them a pardon in exchange for service.) the old art being the "mk.II battlepod" developed for giant pilots, while the revised version from the UEEF marines book is a destroid model inspired by said pod for the micronized zents in the UEEF at their request.

When trying to make peace with a potential enemy I don't think it's a good idea to show up on their doorstep with mecha based on that used by their enemy. So I don't think the REF/UEEF Pods were based on any DoZ's Mecha. They're either entirely new or based on existing Zentraedi Pods. I have wondered if this design isn't a left over from before the Zentraedi were proscribed from interacting with Micronians. Either a design from before the RM's discovered they could manipulate the Zentraedi's size or for use in area's where full size Zentraedi Mecha wouldn't practical or possible. All those micronized Zentraedi need something to fight in. After all, there's got to be a reason for sizing chambers besides placing spies among Micronian's they're not supposed to interact with.

My other thought was that this design is a later one that was either an attempt to conserve resources, or to still have a potent defensive force while keeping the full size Zentraedi at a distance. Works for both really. I've never thought it was a DoZ design. I think the Master's would have been skeptical of the SDF-3 to begin with. They see DoZ designs and they'd turn hostile.

Sambot wrote:When trying to make peace with a potential enemy I don't think it's a good idea to show up on their doorstep with mecha based on that used by their enemy.

Except Leonard rightly questions if its a diplomatic mission to which Emerson says "its called Gunboat Diplomacy". And that's perfectly in-line with what Gloval says in To the Stars: that the Earth will bring the war to The Masters and end their ability to wage war.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Sambot wrote:When trying to make peace with a potential enemy I don't think it's a good idea to show up on their doorstep with mecha based on that used by their enemy.

Except Leonard rightly questions if its a diplomatic mission to which Emerson says "its called Gunboat Diplomacy". And that's perfectly in-line with what Gloval says in To the Stars: that the Earth will bring the war to The Masters and end their ability to wage war.

Yes, and that's why they took a lot of mecha with them. In case the Masters didn't want to talk. But you're not going to get them to talk if you show up disguised as their enemy. It's counter productive since they'll believe you're the enemy and open fire. If you come in disguised as one of their own, they'll at least question what you're doing there.

The only time I have heard of the DoZ was in reference to whatever those of Zor's allies that took the Macross on it's trip to earth.

We have bin using the Meltran and Zent. from MAcross 2, as the DOZ. We just reduced the size of everything by about half. but didn't change any of the stats.

In the original Macross franchise, the Protoculture wasn't a fuel; it was a galactic empire. And in fact, the SDF-1 was originally a Protoculture ship. I believe that at one point in the series, Hikaru came across another Protoculture ship.

Since Robotech has Zor replace the Protoculture as the explanation for where the SDF-1 originated, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have the Disciples of Zor replace the Protoculture where that derelict ship is concerned.

dataweaver wrote:In the original Macross franchise, the Protoculture wasn't a fuel; it was a galactic empire. And in fact, the SDF-1 was originally a Protoculture ship. I believe that at one point in the series, Hikaru came across another Protoculture ship.

Since Robotech has Zor replace the Protoculture as the explanation for where the SDF-1 originated, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have the Disciples of Zor replace the Protoculture where that derelict ship is concerned.

You are thinking of the ship that is encountered en-route to the Robotech Factor Satellite when they defold early in "Viva Miryia"? That ship can not be DoZ, it is specifically identified as a Robotech Master aligned vessel.

Now the DoZ could be using existing Zentreadi &/or Tirolian designs, but they might not be since there is so little information available on them from the show.

Since they're the Disciples of Zor, I'd say that there's a good chance that they're Tirolian.

But as you say, we don't know. Another possibility is that “Disciples of Zor” is what the Robotech Masters call the Sentinels.

dataweaver wrote:
But as you say, we don't know. Another possibility is that “Disciples of Zor” is what the Robotech Masters call the Sentinels.

oohh.. i like that one. especially combined with my own headcanon that "the sentinels" had remnant fleets ala BSG, fighting a guerilla war against the Masters Empire well before the invid arrived and took over their homeworlds.

dataweaver wrote:In the original Macross franchise, the Protoculture wasn't a fuel; it was a galactic empire. And in fact, the SDF-1 was originally a Protoculture ship. I believe that at one point in the series, Hikaru came across another Protoculture ship.

Since Robotech has Zor replace the Protoculture as the explanation for where the SDF-1 originated, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have the Disciples of Zor replace the Protoculture where that derelict ship is concerned.

in Macross, the SDF-1 was originally an Inspection army vessel. which had been a Protoculture society military, subborned by the Protodevilin (a super-soldier project that malfuctioned and created powerful entities with brainwashing abilities). the Zentreadi/Meltrandi fleets were created by the protoculture to fight said protodevilin led 'inspection army' after it turned on them.

and the ship that breetai's vessel stumbled over on the way to the factory was a Inspection army gunboat similar to the Macross. (and skipped because of booby trap fears, like what the SDF-1 did when it first detected breetai's task group at the start of the show)


that said, in RT, that ship is described as a "long range exploration vessel adapted to hyperspace travel". suggesting it was probably a Tirolian design, perhaps created before they had protoculture technology and then adapted to it later.
making it a DoZ vessel would work well i think with that description.. it would presumably then be either an early zentreadi vessel, or an older tirolian use ship. either way, it would be the sort of ship that an anti-masters rebellion might make use of. the similarities to the SDF-1 would point towards it being a Zor related vessel, so DoZ would fit. that would also explain why breetai was so reluctant to investigate, since presumably if it had been a zentraedi wreck he'd have been less afraid of boobytraps and ambushes, since he'd be familiar with the various things that could have been set. but the DoZ would know their tech better and be more creative.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

dataweaver wrote:
But as you say, we don't know. Another possibility is that “Disciples of Zor” is what the Robotech Masters call the Sentinels.

oohh.. i like that one. especially combined with my own headcanon that "the sentinels" had remnant fleets ala BSG, fighting a guerilla war against the Masters Empire well before the invid arrived and took over their homeworlds.

The Sentinels are slated to get their own new mecha designs in the new book coming from the company that picked up the RPG license.

dataweaver wrote:Since they're the Disciples of Zor, I'd say that there's a good chance that they're Tirolian.

But as you say, we don't know. Another possibility is that “Disciples of Zor” is what the Robotech Masters call the Sentinels.

While I have to admit I've considered the notion of the DoZ = Sentinels in the past I don't think the ship is intended or implied to be a DoZ vessel in the dialogue from "Viva Miryia".

Ep30 Viva Miryia wrote:[emphasis mine]
Breetai That my dear Cmdr Grant is a ship from our reconnaissance forces a fairly late model if I'm not mistaken
Lisa But I've never seen anything like it
Breetai That is not unlikely
Lisa Give me a status report Exedore
Exedore I have made a positive identification and it is in fact a late model reconnaissance vessel it has been somewhat modified for hyperspace travel also the scanners indicate no biological activity what so ever
[...skipping ahead a bit while they briefly consider altering the mission]
Exedore Your compassion is commendable however it looks to me the vessel could be a trap
Lisa What
Exedore We Zentreadi are known for such Trojan Horses as you call them it is not wise to take such a risk

Breetai identifies the vessel as part of "our reconnaissance forces", now obviously it can't be Terran-Zentreadi alliance, but it would indicate the Zentreadi in the service of the Masters. Exedore doesn't contradict him either, even though it would be appropriate to indicate who it would be affiliated with. They are also concerned that it could be a "Trojan Horse" trap, which Zentreadi are known to do.

And while I agree the DoZ are likely Tirolian (and/or even Zentreadi) there really isn't any reason they would have to use known RM/Zent. designs. The DoZ appear also to be low on PC, as the PC-M/F is speculated to be enough to allow them to start a new offensive against and I quote from an RM "our Zentreadi" (suggesting factions of?). That would be like expecting every military/nation on Earth to use the same designs for their military hardware.

TRM saga ("Half-Moon" by Emerson) also indicates that "no human beings have the knowledge to create Robotech spaceships their most likely in the service of the Robotech Masters". We also know from TRM (as suggested by Leonard in "Metal Fire") that"...a barbaric strain of micronized Zentraedi who where scattered throughout the universe only now they have returned....", while micronized Zentreadi could adapt their giant form mecha for use, it would make sense they could have their own designs for that size.

For what it's worth, I was never arguing that the DoZ would use the same mecha as the RT Masters or the Zentreadi. For what it's worth, I'd also consider reusing the Marduk mecha from Macross II as DoZ designs, equating the Marduk with a faction of former Tirolians who went their own way.

A possible counterpoint to my suggestion that they may in fact be the Sentinels: the Sentinel races were fighting the Regent's Invid at the time of the Second Robotech War; we don't know if they ever had an antagonistic relationship with the RT Masters. With that said, what made me think that they might be the DoZ is how Zor went around the Sentinel worlds seeding each with mutated versions of the Flower of Life. It wouldn't surprise me in the least of during these visits he befriended the locals.