Your Opinon: Can Psychic Abilities Be Taught in Rifts?

[EliBenedict]

I'm curious what people think. Can psychic abilities be taught and learned in Rifts?

In the context of the game, it seems clear, in general, the answer is "no." You're either born with psychic abilities, or they're somehow induced (via crazy modification, genetic manipulation, exposure to strange dimensional energies or the like.)

However, there are a number of OCCs who's abilities result from training that do grant limited psychic abilities (techno-wizards, mystic ninjas, most of the OCCs from Rifts China 2, even the "non-psychic" cyber-knight learns psi-sword, psi-shield and meditation.)

It seems like there's two ways to explain this:

1-It is possible to teach limited psychic abilities with specific, intensive training.

2-These OCCs are effectively filtering recruits based on psychic potential. So learning techno-wizardry would depend on already having that OCCs psychic power set, and there would be a bunch of would-be cyber-knight apprentices who scrub out when it becomes clear they don't even have minimum psychic potential to conjure the psi-sword.

What do you think?

[EltonRobb]

Are you talking reality or within the context of the game?

[EliBenedict]

Are you talking reality or within the context of the game?

In the context of the game. I'll edit to clarify, thanks.


If I'd wanted to ask the question with regard to reality, I probably would have posted to The "History" Channel's message boards.

[green.nova343]

I think you're looking at probably 2 separate situations. Most of the O.C.C.s -- Techno-Wizard, Mystic, etc. -- could potentially be seen as the 2nd option (where potential candidates are screened)...except you run into the problem of where their supposed psionic abilities were for, say, a character that switches from a prior O.C.C. to, say, a Techno-Wizard O.C.C.

So, for me, personally, I believe that -- at least in these specific situations -- we're looking at this being more of situation #1. And that's because the psionic powers involved are extremely limited. TWs have extremely limited psionics (only have a particular set); Mystics & the Mystic Ninja have a mostly fixed list of abilities with only slight variations available from PC to PC. A "non-psychic" Cyber-Knight, like the TW, only has a limited set of psionic abilities.

Which is probably why I wouldn't allow someone to switch from a non-psychic O.C.C. (say, Rogue Scientist) to a powerful psychic O.C.C. like Mind Melter. It doesn't fit the narrative of non-psychics being able to be taught limited psychic powers.

[Curbludgeon]

Well, the Coalition Manhunters book has the power Open Third Eye, for which some of the flavor text may prove useful for this:

Spoiler:

pg 131
This is a remarkable ability that enables the psychic to temporarily unlock and enable access to one of the psionic abilities listed below, in another person who is not a psychic. The individual whose Third Eye has been momentarily opened intuitively knows how to use the ability that has surfaced. The power that surfaces is, presumably, one of the individual’s unknown latent psionic abilities made accessible for a few melee rounds. After that, it is gone. Should Open Third Eye be used on the individual again, it will awaken the same
ability (so players, make note of it).

While such an awakening of a hidden, inner psychic ability might suggest the individual is a psychic, that is not case (unless the character is a juvenile, in which case he may be). Most adults lack the will, ability, and practiced training to summon one or more psychic abilities on their own. It is just there, a remnant of an unrealized potential, buried deep inside of them. Beyond their control. Truth be told, most people are frightened by psychic abilities so they are happy to leave it there, buried, and never speak of it again.

[Grazzik]

WB12 pg 145 - "Note: The CS has also learned it is impossible to teach nonpsychics psionic powers through training."

Characters don't wake up one morning and decide to pick an OCC and worry about minimum requirements... they just live their fictional life. It is the players that choose the character's OCC as part of char gen to enable game play and so it would be logical to presume that any required psionic capacity required for the selected OCC was already present. Whether recruited, screened or simply natural gravitation to the OCC like a calling, that's up to the player to decide as part of background development. In short, learning the OCC is simply a process of unlocking pre-existing potential powers.

As a side note: can a player choose a psychic OCC for their character without the psionic component? Sure, I'd allow that, as they could just learn the skills, but would suffer penalties wrt special skills and bonuses, as these are likely bound up with the use of psychic powers to some degree in order to master them. There might be a number of TW washouts that understand the technical aspects of the craft, but unable to perform the psychic or magical aspects of it and end up fixing broken toasters. It might be an interesting, but challenging, roleplay opportunity.

There's been lots said elsewhere on switching OCCs. Ordinarily, I would not allow switching to a psychic OCC, only from one. I might consider one exception wrt switching OCCs: if the character already had the same psychic powers despite having a non-psychic OCC, like a Rogue Scientist that is a Major psychic. In that case, they would not be 'learning' new psychic powers, only how to apply them in a new context. However, since most psychic OCCs are Master psychics, it is highly doubtful the character with the non-psychic OCC would already have the requisite powers.

For example, ignoring the magic component, a Major psychic Rogue Scientist might 'learn' to become a TW, which is a Minor psychic, if they already have the same psi powers. However, they could never 'learn' to become a Psi-Operator that has any of the Super psi powers, as Super psionics are not available to Minors or Majors rolled up on the random table. The Psi-Operator would only be an option with the lesser powers, if the Minor or Major already had them.

[Impeesa]

That depends a little bit. I'd say, as others have, that the canonical interpretation seems to be that you can train at unlocking and developing your psychic powers, but you can't reliably have a teacher say "I'm going to teach you this specific power", nor can you train to gain psionics if you just aren't psychic to begin with. That said, practically speaking we allow things like switching OCCs into a psionic class when you didn't have one before under the justification that you always had the potential and now you're just learning to use it.

[ShadowLogan]

In the context of the game, it seems clear, in general, the answer is "no." You're either born with psychic abilities, or they're somehow induced (via crazy modification, genetic manipulation, exposure to strange dimensional energies or the like.)

I think, at least for human-standard psionics*, the answer is that all psychic abilities are induced in one way or another to develop be it implants (M.O.M) or some other stimulus. With humans, the M.o.M implants don't have an installation failure rate AFAIK for humans, which you would expect some level of installation failure rate if it wasn't something every human possessed on an innate, though deactivated, level. The only negative is that there doesn't appear anyway to control the results (WB12's psi-implants) so there maybe a genetic component in terms of power level and powers that develop. The reason we don't realize this is because we essentially skip over a period of our characters early life that could have included a stimulus we just never thought of to include (ie events that revealed we had psychic powers).

We do know there are ways to train psychics regarding their powers, things like Opening the 3rd Eye (WB12), CS Psi-bat Training (WB12), Psi-Sword (Amaki Duelist WB9, or CyberKnight) for example. So it is possible that some training programs (like the CyberKnight) might act as a stimulus for activating specific powers, at least for humans-standard-psionics* even if they don't realize it or have made some type of connection to allow them to reliably replicate the results.

*human-standard-psionics as part of character creation where you roll randomly for psionic power level (None, Minor, Major, Master). Races that all have powers automatically (either fixed or even randomly) would be different I would think.

[Library Ogre]

As a general rule, you cannot teach a non-psychic to have psychic powers. But that's a general rule.

Some groups (Cyber-knights) may have ways to awaken latent psionic power. Sure you didn't really have any psychic powers, but we know ways to guide you and unlock your powers.

Given the existence of Crazies and other psynetics, it may be possible to artificially induce psychic powers. Obviously, the implants would do that, but there may be less drastic ways of doing it, too. I could see a therapy using something like electrodes, a modified IRMSS, and psi-cola that would allow some people to develop and keep psychic powers (I can also see quacks CLAIMING this would work).

I also tend to think that psychics can be guided towards certain psychic expressions (you can turn someone who might have been a burster into a mind mage, or vice versa), that already-psychic characters can learn new powers through exploration and practice, and that a skilled teacher can help someone unlock psychic powers.

[Mack]

A couple quotes from Psyscape, p145.

The CS has learned that training and focus at an early age can help an individual develop into one of these psionic categories more quickly and with greater range of power and control. Raw talent can be fine tuned and directed towards a desired effect! Sometimes coaching and special training programs can turn a potential Mind Melter, or young, underdeveloped Master Psionic, into a Psi-Slayer, Psi-Nullifier, Psi-Tech, or other area/R.C.C. where the CS Military has special wants or needs.

I see this the same as a young athlete with the potential to make it in professional sports. He may have natural talent or ability, but he needs to be effectively coached.

Note: The CS has also learned it is impossible to teach non-psychics psionic powers through training.

So you either have the potential, or you don't. And typically in Rifts, one must develop that potential at a young age or lose it.

[thorr-kan]

There have been a few go arounds about this, both in Rifts and in other Palladium games. I'll link some threads below.

The general trend seems to be, being psychic is a state change: you either are, or you are not. No amount of training can change that. Cyber-knight training seems to be the one exception.

That being said, external influences can cause a state change: drugs (Psi-Cola), implants (Psynetics, Psionic implants, Project Bananas), genetic changes (Gene Splicers!), and other sources.

But training can make a psychic into a *better* psychic: Third-Eye Training, CS Psionic Training, mercenary boot camp. If you're willing to go further afield, there are other options in other games: NORAD Esper training from Systems Failure is an example.

Links:
I just noticed something about ISP and PPE.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=155751
Psionic Training as skill slots
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=148891

[Hotrod]

I'm curious what people think. Can psychic abilities be taught and learned in Rifts?

In the context of the game, it seems clear, in general, the answer is "no." You're either born with psychic abilities, or they're somehow induced (via crazy modification, genetic manipulation, exposure to strange dimensional energies or the like.)

However, there are a number of OCCs who's abilities result from training that do grant limited psychic abilities (techno-wizards, mystic ninjas, most of the OCCs from Rifts China 2, even the "non-psychic" cyber-knight learns psi-sword, psi-shield and meditation.)

It seems like there's two ways to explain this:

1-It is possible to teach limited psychic abilities with specific, intensive training.

2-These OCCs are effectively filtering recruits based on psychic potential. So learning techno-wizardry would depend on already having that OCCs psychic power set, and there would be a bunch of would-be cyber-knight apprentices who scrub out when it becomes clear they don't even have minimum psychic potential to conjure the psi-sword.

What do you think?

I think it's a bit of both. The C.S. has a program to develop young psychics into Psi-Nullifiers: by exposing them to some pretty awful/traumatic stuff, the overwhelming majority of subjects become Psi-Nullifiers. The protagonist of Duty's Edge develops two powers over the course of the story, both of which are strongly influenced by his circumstances. It seems like Psionic people develop powers according to their interests. It's possible to shape the kinds of powers a specific mind develops by putting a person under some kind of duress that calls for a specific kind of power.

It also seems to be possible for even non-psionics to develop psionic powers through intensive training, but this is unusual.
+The Cyber-Knight is the only O.C.C. I can think of which does this for expressly non-psionic characters, who have Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, and Meditation.

It's conceivable that other powers might be train-able, and it's also conceivable that some O.C.C.'s with unusually high concentrations of psionics may in effect teach psionics.
-The Psi-Operator is an example of this; the fact that they get half as many O.C.C. Related skills is consistent with this; in RUE, there are normally no penalties that come with having major psionics. The text is unclear whether Psi-Operators were already intrinsically psychic or became so through training, but given that the 15-20% of Operators who are Psi-Operators aligns pretty well with the overall proportion of psionic humans, it's hard to say.
-The fact that all Techno-Wizards are also minor psionics with very specific powers suggests that these powers are specifically taught. It's not clear whether someone has to already have some psionics in order to become a Techno-Wizard.

[green.nova343]

A couple quotes from Psyscape, p145.

The CS has learned that training and focus at an early age can help an individual develop into one of these psionic categories more quickly and with greater range of power and control. Raw talent can be fine tuned and directed towards a desired effect! Sometimes coaching and special training programs can turn a potential Mind Melter, or young, underdeveloped Master Psionic, into a Psi-Slayer, Psi-Nullifier, Psi-Tech, or other area/R.C.C. where the CS Military has special wants or needs.

I see this the same as a young athlete with the potential to make it in professional sports. He may have natural talent or ability, but he needs to be effectively coached.

Note: The CS has also learned it is impossible to teach non-psychics psionic powers through training.

So you either have the potential, or you don't. And typically in Rifts, one must develop that potential at a young age or lose it.

I wonder if this might be a case of...well, not "bad editing", but perhaps poor word selection. The second sentence in that paragraph ("Only psychics receive any benefits from the training offered by Psi-Battalion.") seems to be referencing the bonus stats block that immediately follows it...& of the bonuses provided, only 2 of them (+2 save vs. possession, +1 save vs. mind control) can truly be considered to be psionic-related bonuses. At least 2 of the CS O.C.C.s (Special Forces & Rangers from WB11) get bonuses to save vs. HF even without any psychic abilities -- Rangers even get a +1 save vs. possession themselves, & officers (WB11, p. 48) not only get a +1 save vs. HF but a +1 to M.E.

I think, as the Cyber-Knight & certain other O.C.C.s show, it is possible for a certain level of psychic ability to be gained via intensive training, even if the person does not have any psychic ability to begin with. However, said talents are extremely limited -- both in any potential ISP base & in the available abilities to select from (assuming actual selection is possible; Techno-Wizards have a fixed set of psychic abilities that they have, with no selection of other abilities possible) -- in comparison to a major psychic (let alone a master), & are only available to the specific O.C.C.s that mention them in their description.

As for changing to a psychic O.C.C. from a non-psychic O.C.C....(Michael Scott voice) "Nope...don't like that...". Carrying over generic minor/major psychic abilities from 1 O.C.C. to another is one thing, but the specific Psychic O.C.C.s/P.C.C.s should really almost be treated more as an R.C.C. You can't change from being an Elf to being a Dwarf, so you really shouldn't be able to change over from a non-psychic Rogue Scientist to a Mind Melter. I'm also leery of the idea of someone changing from, say, a Burster to become a Mind Melter, it just feels like the psychic's brain would be too "hard-wired" into the prior set of abilities to be able to change like that.

[guardiandashi]

I'm curious what people think. Can psychic abilities be taught and learned in Rifts?

In the context of the game, it seems clear, in general, the answer is "no." You're either born with psychic abilities, or they're somehow induced (via crazy modification, genetic manipulation, exposure to strange dimensional energies or the like.)

However, there are a number of OCCs who's abilities result from training that do grant limited psychic abilities (techno-wizards, mystic ninjas, most of the OCCs from Rifts China 2, even the "non-psychic" cyber-knight learns psi-sword, psi-shield and meditation.)

It seems like there's two ways to explain this:

1-It is possible to teach limited psychic abilities with specific, intensive training.

2-These OCCs are effectively filtering recruits based on psychic potential. So learning techno-wizardry would depend on already having that OCCs psychic power set, and there would be a bunch of would-be cyber-knight apprentices who scrub out when it becomes clear they don't even have minimum psychic potential to conjure the psi-sword.

What do you think?

I was thinking about it and my take is somewhat neuanced

1 there is a certain percentage of active psyonics in the rifts setting
I would also argue there is a certain percentage of people with psionic potentual.

most psionic training regimens cannot "induce" psionice in people, but they can guide how said potential expresses itself.

I suspect that there are SOME psi training regimens that CAN induce psionics

I know its a bad example but I use the Xmen series of movies, and also reference deadpool

IE in the 1dt Xmen movie magneto made a machine that caused people to randomly become mutants of course it was in many (all shown in the movie) cases it triggered lethal side effects, because the senator did not get a survivable set of mutations

in the movie deadpool, he was given a injection/chemical cocktail that typically triggered a response that encouraged mutant abilities to express in response to trauma, and then they proceeded to try various things to trigger a response.

I see attempting to trigger psionics as being similar

[Library Ogre]

I know its a bad example but I use the Xmen series of movies, and also reference deadpool

I actually thought of something from the X-men comic books, specifically the original (mutant slavery) Genosha. There was a young woman whose test results were changed to hide that she was a mutant; she was later found out. At one point, the Gene-engineer (a mutant who collaborated with the government) explained to her non-mutant boyfriend that her children would likely become healers... but that they had enough healers right now, so they were tweaking her mutation to make her a better miner.

With regards to Rifts psionics, major psychics might have an inclination one way or another, but they might be guided to other things... a healer-aligned major psychic who became a healer would have 8 healing powers... their abilities are aligned with their training. A healer-aligned major psychic who was guided to other things would have 6 powers spread across the 3 categories... they might have been most competent as a healer, but they were trained to broad abilities, rather than specialization (and the ones with 6 powers might simply be generalists by nature).

Minor psychics probably often develop without much guidance, following their inclinations... they've got powers that develop before anyone really realizes they're psychic without extensive testing. Master psychics will usually be trained, or, in the case of things like bursters, spontaneously erupt with very specific powers. You might be able to train a master psychic into a burster, if you start early enough, though.

[desrocfc]

Ooooh, an opinion post, goodie!

No, they can't - that's my opinion. Of course, this makes it about as compelling as any other, I guess. LOL <shrug> In my opinion non-Practitioners of Magic/Psionics can't ever suddenly gain the ability to cast magic/psionics from some sudden explosion of PPE/ISP. To me it just reeks of min-maxing and trying to abuse the system for gain.

I'm also a GM that refuses to consider allowing change of OCCs, with specific exception (e.g. Juicer, City Rat). To be fair, I think as poorly of the majority of d20 systems' approach to it, but multi-classing (in PB/d20/other) is a separate rant.

[drewkitty ~..~]

if the individual has an 'active' psychic potential, that potential might be trained.

But if you mean taught to any john/jane doe....no. you'd end up with a lot of broken people if you did just to find the few in the previously (above) mentioned sort of people.
--------------
Now looking at the published changing class rules in the PF game as a whole the answer for the question 'can a char change their class to (or from) a master psi class (P.C.C.)?' the answer is no.

-if you use the posted very optional; and in my opinion very poorly conceived; rules for the PF game in the cutting room floor, then yes.

[Blackwater Sniper]

I think it's like athletic ability; some people were born to play professional sports, some try all their lives to achieve 'the next higher goal,' but not everyone has the ability.

[The Beast]

IMO someone who was born with psychic powers (or acquired them later in life) but never really developed them much can be taught how to use them better (to the point of being able to pick a PCC), but someone without psychic powers can never be taught to use them.

[Hotrod]

From Canon, it seems that some limited psionic powers can be taught as part of O.C.C. training. This is consistent with the write-ups for Cyber-knights, psi-operators, and techno-wizards. There is precedent for a non-psionic character becoming a minor psionic this way, and it may be possible to develop major psionics this way, too (the Techno-Wizard arguably sets this precedent).

There is no canon precedent I know of to indicate that someone who isn't already a master psionic can train to become so. There are some ways for non-psychics to get super-psionic powers. The Crazy O.C.C., Psinetics from Mindwerks, the falling of a Cosmo-Knight in Phase World, and the weird experimental rift as Azlum in Atlantis come to mind, but none of these involve training. Since Duty's Edge is now canon (ish), there is some precedent for non-psionics becoming so in Rifts, and essentially all humans of the Makfi in the Middle East are psionic to some degree. I didn't dive into why this is in the story (it wasn't relevant), but there are some unique aspects of their history, their region, and the tools of their way of life that may play a role.

Just my opinion: a mind generally has to already be at the master psionic level in order to be a master psionic; this cannot be trained. Specific powers that can turn a non-psychic into a minor or major psionic are possible as part of O.C.C. training, but some external influence and power must drive this, and that new power should come as part of a major change in a character that includes some significant drawbacks and costs.

[Grazzik]

From Canon, it seems that some limited psionic powers can be taught as part of O.C.C. training. This is consistent with the write-ups for Cyber-knights, psi-operators, and techno-wizards.

Yes, if they are already psychic or have the potential already in them to be unlocked (i.e. before an OCC is pursued) and have developed into that OCC as a result. Otherwise, for psi-operator or TW, I see no text from books or sources cited in the discussions above explicitly describing how one becomes a psi-operator or TW with psychic powers via training alone. Folks are free to house rule, however.

There is precedent for a non-psionic character becoming a minor psionic this way, and it may be possible to develop major psionics this way, too (the Techno-Wizard arguably sets this precedent).

No there is no such precedent in the text. Only presumed application using OCC switching rules.

The only exception discussed so far in canon is the Cyber-knight. However, might I offer an alternative...

Somewhere around 70-80% of all Cyber-Knights possess limited psychic powers. These candidates are selected, in part, for their innate psychic abilities and (usually) high Mental Endurance (M.E.).

Emphasis added.
Therefore, people who aren't psychic can be a cyber-knight. (BTW It also confirms that people are screened for psychic powers to become cyber-knights.) However, even the non-psychics gain 3 psychic powers and develop ISP (RUE pg 64). So, is there anything in the books that can explain this? I turn to RUE pg 63 that speaks of Inner Strength and Spirit as "chi" in order to perform their superhuman feats. This got me thinking about the mystic martial arts in WB25 and the Jian Shih, Chun Tzu and the Nei Chia Wu Shih. They are warriors that through training develop powers that use Chi/ISP. However, they are not true psychics in that they don't develop powers beyond their martial art. The same is said for the even mundane OCCs of the GeoFront. None of these have additional powers beyond what is imparted by training. However looking through the rest of the book, other OCCs like the Mystic Monks are identified as psychics. So, it is conceivable that powers could be developed through training, but perhaps like those described in WB25, the 3 universal powers of the Cyber-Knight is really a channeling of Chi, rather than a true set of psychic powers, and RUE simply failed to describe them as such or the concept of chi is so rare in Rifts North America that the powers just got called "psychic" for a lack of a better word. Therefore the 20-30% of CKs that are non-psychic do not become psychic by gaining CK powers, they simply channel Chi to manifest those powers and the confusion just stems from the lack of consistency in the writing.

There is no canon precedent I know of to indicate that someone who isn't already a master psionic can train to become so. There are some ways for non-psychics to get super-psionic powers. The Crazy O.C.C., Psinetics from Mindwerks, the falling of a Cosmo-Knight in Phase World, and the weird experimental rift as Azlum in Atlantis come to mind, but none of these involve training.

True

Since Duty's Edge is now canon (ish), there is some precedent for non-psionics becoming so in Rifts, ...

With ALL due respect to your contributions, Hotrod, I would not want to diminish your work or say it wasn't awesome. However, calling anything outside of a gamebook "canon" may push some people's buttons.

Just my opinion: ...

We are all entitled to one and should respect those that don't share them. Thank you for sharing yours.

[EliBenedict]

Thanks everyone for weighing in. Reading through everyone's responses, synthesizing and incorporating some elements from a recent re-reading of Beyond the Supernatural, here's my take:

Any creature with PPE has the potential to develop at least some psychic powers (that's why they call in Potential Psychic Energy). For Rifts humans this potential is an inherent feature of their neurology.

Some groups (Ninjas, Techno-Wizards, ect.) have developed training regimens that allow a non-psychic to develop their psychic potential into actual psychic abilities, but only at minor (or occasionally major) levels.

Master psychic powers, on the other hand, result from a genetic overabundance of psychic potential. Training can direct how that potential develops (so someone with the potential to be a mind melter could be trained to be a burster, if they met a teacher early enough in life. According to Psyscape, the CS has figured out how to do this, turning would-be Mind Melters into Nega-Psychics). But no amount of training can make a non-psychic (or a minor or major psychic) into a master psychic.

To follow the athletic metaphor some have used, with the right instruction, and persistent training at an early age, most children could probably become very good basketball players or musicians (or minor/major psychics). But training alone won't turn you into Kareem Abdul Jabar or Mozart (or a Master psychic.) You need talent, plus practice and training, for that.

This does imply that there might be occasional individuals with Master Psychic potential who never develop it, or discover it late in life (which could be an interesting plot hook.)

I'm inclined to think that Psi-Operators are such individuals: potential master psychics who never fully developed their powers, but who, because of their focus on technology, unconsciously develop some telemechanical super psychic abilities.

Following Grazzik, on re-reading Rifts China 2, I've changed my mind. In general, the Heroes of the Celestial Court OCCs don't get actual psychic powers. Like psychics, they build up an internal reservoir ISP, but channel it toward their martial arts powers, rather than psychic abilities. These martial arts powers are teachable, but, notably, and according to the OCC write-ups (under "Powers of Meditation"), learning ISP-based martial arts powers entirely prevents the character from developing psychic abilities.

The analogy I'm thinking of is that martial arts powers and psychic abilities are like two distinct engines. Martial arts powers are teachable. Psychic abilities are (mostly) innate. But they run on the same fuel (I.S.P.) A character who learns martial arts powers has essentially diverted their I.S.P. fuel line away from psychic powers and toward martial arts abilities, so whatever psychic potential they might have had just won't run. The Chinese Diviner classes, and the Demon & Dead Slaver OCC have, essentially, split the difference, developing innate psychic powers to a slight degree, alongside learning some limited martial arts powers.

In spite of that, the China 2 OCCs are personally familiar with ISP based powers, so they are treated as psychics (whether minor, major or master) for the purposes of making saves, even though, technically, they are not psychics.

[Grazzik]

Interesting and thorough summary.

However, one point...

Any creature with PPE has the potential to develop at least some psychic powers (that's why they call in Potential Psychic Energy). For Rifts humans this potential is an inherent feature of their neurology.

I agree that there is something about humans and other beings that allow for utilization of PPE (in its various forms of ISP, Chi and raw PPE) to develop psionics, chi powers, and magic. Whether it is biological, spiritual, educational, or environmental, we could debate until the cows come home and still not reach consensus. House rule as you see fit for your game.

However, just because a creature has PPE doesn't mean they have the potential to have psionics. It could simply mean there is potential energy there that perhaps another being could potentially siphon off.

Case in point - Orcs (CB1r pg 102). They have PPE. They have no capacity for psionics. They can not do magic, unless as a witch or priest since those powers come from the relationship with the external benefactor. However, a magic user can still tap into the Orc's PPE - hence the term "potential" as in "stored".

Dragonmen (CB1r pg 83) also have PPE (twice as much) and also no psionic capacity. It could be well argued that it is because they can use that PPE in a very limited way as a shaman (akin to your same fuel, different engine concept). However, it doesn't explain Orcs.

Kydians (WB2 pg 48) also have PPE (a substantial amount) and also no psionic capacity and does not learn or use magic, except through biowizardry or devices. It could be well argued that their "potential" results in their supernatural PS and their aversion to magic is cultural. However, it still doesn't explain those pesky Orcs.

And then we get to Golgans. They have PPE. They cannot be a magic user or develop psychic powers (DB5 pg 58). They are not supernatural in any way. Now we have two beings that have PPE but it doesn't give THEM any capacity for powers. However, there is nothing stopping a mage from siphoning that "potential" (as in stored) energy for use in their own magicks.

So, replace "any" with "most" and your statement would be a lot more defensible.

[Aermas]

My own personal take is that Psionics are more a genetic thing than anything else. If you have the "psionic gene" then you're just a different branch of humanity. These genetics usually develop one or two psychic powers which are keyed to your individual biology/genes.

Take hair for example, most every human has the gene for hair, but some have black hair, some have red, etc. Hair color is the specific powers, while having hair in the first place is having psychic powers.

This is why forcing the third eye always unlocks the same connection to the same power.

Some people have far more psychic power than others. These are the Super Psychic O.C.Cs/P.C.Cs. these people were predisposed towards one facet of psychic power but they also get a lot of the minor ones too as they are just more developed.

Any race with enough psychic connection can also learn Psychic Powers through study & training. This is like working out a muscle. You may not be psychic enough to display your inate genetic predisposition but you have enough latent energy to be molded.

I also think anyone can theoretically unlock a ton of psychic power given the right circumstances. Perhaps you're a Man at Arms O.C.C. but you got caught in a leyline storm & it infused you with enough juice to unlock your psychic powers that you didn't have the strength to unlock on your own. Same for M.O.M. implants & cyber knight training.

[EliBenedict]

However, just because a creature has PPE doesn't mean they have the potential to have psionics. It could simply mean there is potential energy there that perhaps another being could potentially siphon off.
...
So, replace "any" with "most" and your statement would be a lot more defensible.

Grazzik,

Solid rebuttal/correction.

My comment about any creature with PPE being able to develop psychic powers was based on BTS: "Potential psychic energy is the X-factor in human development. In the fictional game context of Beyond the Supernatural, everyone has some degree of potential psychic energy. This means everybody has a potential for developing psychic abilities." (p.49)

Of course, applying that logic in Rifts depends on the assumption that BTS and Rifts share the same underlying metaphysics (which seems likely, but not certain), and that palladium authors/editors were being consistent (rather less likely.)

It also may be the case, as you suggested, that the capacity to develop PPE into psychic abilities is a peculiarity of humans in the palladium megaverse, and doesn't apply to other creatures (or at least, not to all of them).

That said, by way of presenting an alternative possibilities:

Orcs can get psychic powers by taking the Crazy OCC. GIven that the M.O.M. conversion works by "bringing out minor psionic abilities" (RUE p. 53), this suggests that orcs may have psychic potential, but that they don't generally develop it. Given their stated fear of magic and psionics, this may be a matter of a cultural taboo.

Arguably the same could be true of the dragonmen (it's unclear whether the Crazy OCC would count as a 'basic Men at Arms' OCC that they can take). They don't have a taboo against magic. But maybe, given their natural toughness and strength none of them ever think to do so. And, similar to the logic you pointed out regarding Kydians, they do become MDC creatures on Rifts earth, so maybe their psychic potential is channeled away from psychic powers and toward supernatural durability.

I would argue that the deal with Kydians probably is a cultural taboo. Their whole thing is gratefully fitting into the role the Splugorth has assigned them: that of shock troops. That is, the Splugorth don't want them to try pursuing psychic powers or magic, so they don't.

Again, something similar might be true of the Golgans. Maybe their focus on administration and moving things behind the scenes leads them to ignore their own psychic potential. Just spitballing.

In each case, arguably, we know these species don't develop psychic powers. But that doesn't necessarily mean they can't, under peculiar circumstances (Which could be a cool plot hook. Imagine a Kydian who accidentally developed the abilities of a mind melter, and finds himself marked for culling by the Splugorth. Given his cultural conditioning, he's more bothered by it than anyone, and now he's looking for some way to get rid of them.)

Still, that's all just conjecture. And conjecture about a fictional, and often inconsistent, shared universe at that. You may very well be right.

[Grazzik]

My comment about any creature with PPE being able to develop psychic powers was based on BTS: "Potential psychic energy is the X-factor in human development. In the fictional game context of Beyond the Supernatural, everyone has some degree of potential psychic energy. This means everybody has a potential for developing psychic abilities." (p.49)

Of course, applying that logic in Rifts depends on the assumption that BTS and Rifts share the same underlying metaphysics (which seems likely, but not certain), and that palladium authors/editors were being consistent (rather less likely.)

I understand. But BTS has the limitation of being a human-centric game with non-humans being the NPCs.

Orcs can get psychic powers by taking the Crazy OCC. GIven that the M.O.M. conversion works by "bringing out minor psionic abilities" (RUE p. 53), this suggests that orcs may have psychic potential, but that they don't generally develop it. Given their stated fear of magic and psionics, this may be a matter of a cultural taboo.

The pg 53 quote only applies to the human test subjects when the MOM implants were designed pre-Rifts. No Orcs in the Golden Age. That said, "the rare successes on nonhumans do NOT induce psionic abilities" (RUE pg 56), so no psychic Orcs that way. Same for Crazy Dragonmen. Though I agree that some of the other external factors that induce psionics might work.

Just spitballing.

We all are

In each case, arguably, we know these species don't develop psychic powers. But that doesn't necessarily mean they can't, under peculiar circumstances (Which could be a cool plot hook. Imagine a Kydian who accidentally developed the abilities of a mind melter, and finds himself marked for culling by the Splugorth. Given his cultural conditioning, he's more bothered by it than anyone, and now he's looking for some way to get rid of them.)

Don't let canon get in the way of a good story!

[Hotrod]

I’m very much fine with having characters with exceptional or mutant traits outside rules as written, provided that those traits are relevant and impactful to the story and who the character is, not just an extra bonus for the sake of having bonuses.

Developing psionics at the minor or even major level can be an interesting plot device, whether it comes through training or by some external factor.

[Grazzik]

Something has come to my attention that has changed my views substantially. Not completely, but substantially. I found Official rules for Chaos Earth that I was not familiar with before. I'd be curious as to what people think.

Rifter 50 pg 53 - rules for adding psionics to a character that had an OCC before the coming of the Rifts... including switching to a Master psychic OCC!!!

Rifter 50 pg 54 - such characters may only become Masters before 5th level, but Minors and Majors at any level

Rifter 50 pg 54 - a rule for switching from a magic OCC to a psychic OCC

Rifter 50 pg 54 - an optional rule for switching to a magic OCC (basically use the same rules as switching to a psychic OCC)

Now, does this mean people can switch willy-nilly? No, as these transitions happened when Earth went from practically no magic to an intense dimensional nexus. Extending this content to Rifts Earth, however, LL energies have died down since the Cataclysm. So, perhaps part of the Cyberknight initiation is to be exposed to LL energies of the same intensity in order to jolt the powers into existence. Most likely a ritual of some kind, a grand sharing of PPE among gathered comrades to ratchet up a LL or Nexus... it would be one heck of a party.

[Hotrod]

Something has come to my attention that has changed my views substantially. Not completely, but substantially. I found Official rules for Chaos Earth that I was not familiar with before. I'd be curious as to what people think.

Rifter 50 pg 53 - rules for adding psionics to a character that had an OCC before the coming of the Rifts... including switching to a Master psychic OCC!!!

Rifter 50 pg 54 - such characters may only become Masters before 5th level, but Minors and Majors at any level

Rifter 50 pg 54 - a rule for switching from a magic OCC to a psychic OCC

Rifter 50 pg 54 - an optional rule for switching to a magic OCC (basically use the same rules as switching to a psychic OCC)

Now, does this mean people can switch willy-nilly? No, as these transitions happened when Earth went from practically no magic to an intense dimensional nexus. Extending this content to Rifts Earth, however, LL energies have died down since the Cataclysm. So, perhaps part of the Cyberknight initiation is to be exposed to LL energies of the same intensity in order to jolt the powers into existence. Most likely a ritual of some kind, a grand sharing of PPE among gathered comrades to ratchet up a LL or Nexus... it would be one heck of a party.

Now this is interesting. I wasn't aware of these, though the general idea is analogous to my own concept of what happens with a previously non-psychic character's psionic power development in Duty's Edge.

Now, applied to the general model of PPE, it's well-established that most people use up their permanent PPE as they develop psionics and the skills of adulthood, though it is possible to train one's self to expand one's PPE while developing psionics and skills (see the Mystic and Techno-Wizard). It's also clear that this is not the norm for most people, so there must be something special about O.C.C.s that include the development of psionics and PPE. Exposure to intense magic/psychic energy might fit that bill and create the potential for psionics and would make sense for most of these cases.

Psi-Operators seem like an odd case, though, where psychic power comes at a cost of "other" skills. This suggests that the character has to put significant training into these powers instead of into other skills. Cyber-Knights get no such penalties; a master psionic CK is just as skilled as a "non-psychic" (who is really a minor psionic) CK. Nor do Psi-Stalkers seem to get any penalties to their powers or skills when they take other O.C.C.'s.

Perhaps it *is* possible to acquire psionics through training alone, but this is a difficult and rare thing that only Operators do to any significant degree?

[Killer Cyborg]

A couple quotes from Psyscape, p145.

The CS has learned that training and focus at an early age can help an individual develop into one of these psionic categories more quickly and with greater range of power and control. Raw talent can be fine tuned and directed towards a desired effect! Sometimes coaching and special training programs can turn a potential Mind Melter, or young, underdeveloped Master Psionic, into a Psi-Slayer, Psi-Nullifier, Psi-Tech, or other area/R.C.C. where the CS Military has special wants or needs.

I see this the same as a young athlete with the potential to make it in professional sports. He may have natural talent or ability, but he needs to be effectively coached.

Have you read "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, specifically the part about hockey?