Freehand a Boomgun

[Aermas]

In the Africa Book, one of the Gods, Anhur the Slayer of Enemies, on page 39 is depicted holding a Boomgun, on page 46 its listed in his equipment. He has a Supernatural PS of 51.

The question I ask is, could someone with 50+PS free hand a boomgun without pylons/etc, or does this God go flying when he pulls the trigger?

[EltonRobb]

Hmm. Maybe I should get a copy. That would be something to see.

[Grazzik]

In the Africa Book, one of the Gods, Anhur the Slayer of Enemies, on page 39 is depicted holding a Boomgun, on page 46 its listed in his equipment. He has a Supernatural PS of 51.

The question I ask is, could someone with 50+PS free hand a boomgun without pylons/etc, or does this God go flying when he pulls the trigger?

No canon cannon answer unfortunately, ha ha. You have a couple options to help house rule when dealing with gods in this scenario.

1. They use their SNPS to dig in their heels / grip with toes or claws in anticipation of the recoil.
2. While weight is relative to size, the D&G and CB2 books are spotty on a starting weight. For humanoid gods, some are listed in CB2 as roughly 200lbs at 6ft height. At 18ft tall, Anhur is on the taller side - 3x as high, 3x as wide, and 3x as deep or ~5400lbs. A Glitterboy is 2400lbs, less than half. Perhaps that traction and inertia is sufficient to offset the recoil.
3. Perhaps gods have a supernatural innate reaction to prevent them being tossed around by simple mundane tech - they are GODS (unfathomly powerful beings worshiped by millions across the megaverse) after all. Would their followers keep praying to them if they kept being knocked over by a glorified howitzer?
4. They keep a vial of "Gold Bond" handwavium powder handy to dust their hands and feet before firing.

[slade the sniper]

He could fire it from a crouch or prone... better than standing up straight like a dork on the battlefield.

-STS

[Aermas]

1. They use their SNPS to dig in their heels / grip with toes or claws in anticipation of the recoil.

That's what I was thinking, so this leads me to my follow up... if you can get 40-50 Supernatural PS on a character, or Power Armor, you should be able to do the same.
2. While weight is relative to size, the D&G and CB2 books are spotty on a starting weight. For humanoid gods, some are listed in CB2 as roughly 200lbs at 6ft height. At 18ft tall, Anhur is on the taller side - 3x as high, 3x as wide, and 3x as deep or ~5400lbs. A Glitterboy is 2400lbs, less than half. Perhaps that traction and inertia is sufficient to offset the recoil.
[/quote] Theirs no way heavy Chromium outweighs a God of similar height

3. Perhaps gods have a supernatural innate reaction to prevent them being tossed around by simple mundane tech - they are GODS (unfathomly powerful beings worshiped by millions across the megaverse) after all. Would their followers keep praying to them if they kept being knocked over by a glorified howitzer?

Gods are still effected by physics to an extent, gravity, & such

4. They keep a vial of "Gold Bond" handwavium powder handy to dust their hands and feet before firing.

This might work

[ShadowLogan]

The question I ask is, could someone with 50+PS free hand a boomgun without pylons/etc, or does this God go flying when he pulls the trigger?

Now if you are asking about just free lifting and not firing the boomgun. We know how much the Glitterboy Boomgun weighs 867lbs (plus ammo, Triax has a lighter model). The Glitterboy has a Robotic PS of 30 (both stats are as they appear in RUE). Per RUE a Robotic PS of 30 (WB22 has it at 40, along with most of the other GB models that list a PS except for the Glittergirl with PS of 36) can carry PS x25 in lbs or 750lbs, a SN PS of 50 would be PS x50 in lbs or 2,500lbs. So by this metric alone they should be able to free hand a BG no problem (it might be pushing single hand free use though).

Now if you asking about the recoil... A 1.2ton (fully loaded) GB10 gets tossed 9.1m without its recoil system (pylon and jets), if we assume the distance traveled is in 1second (@15th level APM = 1sec w/boxing, and time penalty is universal for level so 1sec seems appropriate) the math (if I did it right) says the GB experiences 21,840N of force. We can then work backwards from here using alternate value for mass to adjust the distance (since the guy will experience the same amount of force as the GB or the round just fired), which means at x10 more mass than the GB would toss you back ~0.91m (@15x it would be ~0.6m, @20x it would be ~0.46m), now if his mass was less than a GB then he'd be getting tossed back farther. A mass isn't listed for the guy, so it isn't clear if this is how they are getting by. It is also possible the travel time for the Glitterboy could be off (which would alter the force generated).

Now when you lift something you are applying a Force, so we can calculate how much Force they are generating when they lift something. A SN PS of 50 allows one to carry 2,500lbs or 11,120.5N in Palladium, and you can lift x2 what you can carry generally (so 22,241N, the GB by comparison only generates 6,672N with a Robotic PS of 30). This means if the amount of force you can exert while lifting is anything to go by in terms of recoil management (and I'm not saying it is or is not), then a SN PS of 50 generates more force lifting something than the recoil experienced by a fully loaded Glitterboy (where the GB is drastically weaker).

Now as someone else pointed out this guy could assume more stable firing positions (something the GB does not do, or even seem to consider).

[Grazzik]

1. They use their SNPS to dig in their heels / grip with toes or claws in anticipation of the recoil.

That's what I was thinking, so this leads me to my follow up... if you can get 40-50 Supernatural PS on a character, or Power Armor, you should be able to do the same.

ShadowLogan, you beat me to it , but your numbers are off as you used 2400Kg instead of 2400lbs.

Without the stabilization system, a GB would be thrown 30 ft in 1 second. A GB is 2400lbs. (RUE pg 72)
F=ma=9954N, not considering rounding errors.
So, since 9954N would lift 2239 lbs on Earth, to push back against the recoil would require at least:
- a "human" PS of 51 (factoring in the boost for over PS 30),
- a Robotic PS of 90 for power armor,
- a Robotic PS of 23 for giant robots, and
- a SNPS of 45 (not including the "human" boost for PS over 30 if you use it for SNPS).

So, Anhur can take the kick.

Problems dealing with the human vs power armor PS numbers? No-one ever said that Palladium's PS attribute made perfect sense.

2. While weight is relative to size, the D&G and CB2 books are spotty on a starting weight. For humanoid gods, some are listed in CB2 as roughly 200lbs at 6ft height. At 18ft tall, Anhur is on the taller side - 3x as high, 3x as wide, and 3x as deep or ~5400lbs. A Glitterboy is 2400lbs, less than half. Perhaps that traction and inertia is sufficient to offset the recoil.

Theirs no way heavy Chromium outweighs a God of similar height

There is a way - the god chooses such to be. Technically, a god is simply organized PPE with a physical "primal manifestation" (D&G pg 85). However, the books as mentioned are spotty on the topic of weight. The books use often the phrase "relative weight". My example used the idea of relative scaling to come up with a number. However, who knows if Anhur's primal manifestation has literally a heart of gold and guts of steel adding several tons. It's a GM's call.

3. Perhaps gods have a supernatural innate reaction to prevent them being tossed around by simple mundane tech - they are GODS (unfathomly powerful beings worshiped by millions across the megaverse) after all. Would their followers keep praying to them if they kept being knocked over by a glorified howitzer?

Gods are still effected by physics to an extent, gravity, & such

Well, let's clarify a bit. There are two ways to play gods (CB2 pg 6) - the all knowing, all powerful who can do anything anytime way or that the gods are just scaled up supernatural beings way. The first way is pure handwavium. The second way, the GM can decide what rules apply to make the gods satisfying to interact with and fit in the gameplay without ruining the player experience. No two GMs are alike. It's your choice to inject physics into Rifts, but reading many years-worth of posts on this forum shows that physics isn't always a consideration when describing something in Palladium books.

He could fire it from a crouch or prone... better than standing up straight like a dork on the battlefield.

Yes, makes a lot of sense, but depends on how much ego you attribute to gods in your game.

[Aermas]

Fantastic! You guys are great with math btw.

So if one were to somehow grant a person or power armor 45 SN PS it's at least viable.

If I can ask a follow up question, assuming flight control technology to stabilize radical vectors, would the G-10 need significant modification for its existing thrusters to cancel out forward thrust if flying/airborne?

[hup7]

Without the stabilization system, a GB would be thrown 30 ft in 1 second. A GB is 2400lbs. (RUE pg 72)
F=ma=9954N, not considering rounding errors.
So, since 9954N would lift 2239 lbs on Earth, to push back against the recoil would require at least:
- a "human" PS of 51 (factoring in the boost for over PS 30),
- a Robotic PS of 90 for power armor,
- a Robotic PS of 23 for giant robots, and
- a SNPS of 45 (not including the "human" boost for PS over 30 if you use it for SNPS).

So, a few minor points - I get where you are going with lift force vs knock down force... but really this is a momentum / impulse question not just force. But let us face it we are trying to create a 'simulation' of real-world physics so simple is usually better. To save the more complex maths - keep in mind yes, the creature's MASS is very important.

Note giant robots PS (x100) is only IF their PS is 40+ (Yes, the PS / lifting tables are crazy - graph them).

Perhaps a simpler method still would be this - a GB (2400 lbs) is thrown 30' (strength is not as relevant. The thrusters and pylons are compensating, not PS - the gun is 'fixed' to the shoulder). So, why not factor in mass? A creature of say 4800lbs would be thrown half that distance (yes, yes I know but we will keep it simple). At 9600lbs (4.8 ton) roughly 7'; at 10 ton 3' - so at say 20 tons you are not being thrown back at all.

Yes, the creature would need to be able to carry (not lift - lift in Rifts is just off the ground for a few seconds) the weight of the gun comfortably. That is where their PS comes in, you would need to be able to easily shoulder the weapon.

Just my opinion – I think mass is the more crucial factor to being thrown back by the recoil. Yes, I would work with the players (if one had high enough PS and Mass). Higher PS might lower the mass needed IF they came up with how they are going to bring their PS to bear. Always remember good for the goose ...

<edit> If flying? No, a bit late in the evening to go into the physics but if flying your relative mass to the direction of force is extremely low, depending on your method of flight and how you interpret magic. But simple answer (IMHO) no - just no.

[ShadowLogan]

ShadowLogan, you beat me to it , but your numbers are off as you used 2400Kg instead of 2400lbs.

Actually I used 1,200kg for the mass of the fully loaded GB. Not sure how you got 2400kg?

The fully loaded mass of the Glitterboy is listed at 1.2tons. Palladium doesn't seem to qualify that in terms of system (metric or customary, and if customary, is that a long ton or short ton). IF using the long ton, they convert (metric:customary) at ~1:1, if using the short ton it is ~0.9:1. Since Palladium doesn't tend to list the metric equivalent, I assume they use the (British) Long Ton instead of the (US) Short Ton because of this though a few examples could suggest they are just being editorially lazy. So it really comes down to how the Tons is converted from customary units to metric.

EDIT: removed part of reply, replacing with. I think there is an error in your equations. You assume that traveling the 9.1m (30ft) in 1 second yields a final velocity of 9.1m/s to plug into the basic acceleration equation. That is incorrect, there is a derivative of the acceleration equation that accounts for distance traveled in a given time frame if you don't know the final velocity but do know the distance and time that if you don't use could make the 1200kg look like 2400kg if you don't account for this properly.

Link: https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/acceleration

If I can ask a follow up question, assuming flight control technology to stabilize radical vectors, would the G-10 need significant modification for its existing thrusters to cancel out forward thrust if flying/airborne?

Off hand it is hard to say as I'm not sure what you are asking or the situation. Though I suspect the answer would be that a G10 thrusters aren't suitable for what you are asking if I am following you correctly, they are just to weak in terms of thrust and can't sustain it in any case (less than 60seconds). For a jet aircraft I think the answer is clearly no, a 747 uses only 245kN of thrust to maintain cruise speed (a 1/4 of its static thrust rating), an F-4 51kN (and that is not max thrust), at best the G10 here can generate around 12kN* (which would give it a T/W of better than 1). A flying creature, that might be doable depending on how much "thrust" it can generate in order to fly. If tossed around like a rag doll by something, yeah the G10 likely can use its thrusters to alter its course/orientation.

*assuming 1,200kg of mass at 1 Earth G of 9.806m/s/s, requires 11.7kN to have a T/W ratio of 1, and T/W needs to be higher than 1 for VTOL.

[Aermas]

My apologies if I wasn't clear. Allow me to rephrase;

The Triax Hell Angel has a top speed of 260, & a stabilization system to fire its Boomgub accurately while flying. However when it fires, it's speed drops to under 50 from the blast of the gun. So if a G10 was somehow flying with some sort of jetpack bolted on, would its normal, inbuilt thrusters generate the ~220mph thrust to counter act the Boomgun or would additional thrust be needed?

[ShadowLogan]

The Triax Hell Angel has a top speed of 260, & a stabilization system to fire its Boomgub accurately while flying. However when it fires, it's speed drops to under 50 from the blast of the gun. So if a G10 was somehow flying with some sort of jetpack bolted on, would its normal, inbuilt thrusters generate the ~220mph thrust to counter act the Boomgun or would additional thrust be needed?

I'd suggest reviewing the X-710 text. The unit does not drop to under 50mph as a result of firing the Boomgun, it does so prior to firing. Also without the flying modifications it already has it would be tossed 1d6x100yards/meters (at minimum that is 100yards or 300ft, Palladium here assumes 1yr = 1m when that is not technically the case), which is far more than the regular BG and could even go into a spin. The unit is also slightly heavier than the G10 (1.5 vs OG 1.2).

Now could you theoretically counter the recoil with pure additional thrust, yes. How much thrust would be needed in this case is not fixed since the toss distance here is randomized, however you're looking at needing to overcome around between 300kN and 1,800kN of force on the X710. Quite frankly at this point, while there are jet/rocket engines that could likely handle this, I'm not sure they could fit on an X710 and could quite possibly be heavier than the unit itself.

[Aermas]

The Triax Hell Angel has a top speed of 260, & a stabilization system to fire its Boomgub accurately while flying. However when it fires, it's speed drops to under 50 from the blast of the gun. So if a G10 was somehow flying with some sort of jetpack bolted on, would its normal, inbuilt thrusters generate the ~220mph thrust to counter act the Boomgun or would additional thrust be needed?

I'd suggest reviewing the X-710 text. The unit does not drop to under 50mph as a result of firing the Boomgun, it does so prior to firing. Also without the flying modifications it already has it would be tossed 1d6x100yards/meters (at minimum that is 100yards or 300ft, Palladium here assumes 1yr = 1m when that is not technically the case), which is far more than the regular BG and could even go into a spin. The unit is also slightly heavier than the G10 (1.5 vs OG 1.2).

Now could you theoretically counter the recoil with pure additional thrust, yes. How much thrust would be needed in this case is not fixed since the toss distance here is randomized, however you're looking at needing to overcome around between 300kN and 1,800kN of force on the X710. Quite frankly at this point, while there are jet/rocket engines that could likely handle this, I'm not sure they could fit on an X710 and could quite possibly be heavier than the unit itself.

So how does the Hell Angel do it? It's gotta be able to come up with whatever amount of thrust it takes within that range, but only travels at 260 at top speed. As far as weight differences, let's assume that the Glitterboy (which weighs as much as the Super SAMAS without its jetpack) has a similar jetpack to the Super SAMAS or even the Icarus Flight System in Jucier Uprising or Condor Death Wing in Heroes of Humanity which weighs the same as the Super SAMAS jetpack & have considerable power

[Killer Cyborg]

Supernatural strength breaks the laws of physics.
Presumably, 50+ SNPS breaks physics in a way that they don’t have to worry about recoil.

[Grazzik]

EDIT: removed part of reply, replacing with. I think there is an error in your equations. You assume that traveling the 9.1m (30ft) in 1 second yields a final velocity of 9.1m/s to plug into the basic acceleration equation. That is incorrect, there is a derivative of the acceleration equation that accounts for distance traveled in a given time frame if you don't know the final velocity but do know the distance and time that if you don't use could make the 1200kg look like 2400kg if you don't account for this properly.

Link: https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/acceleration

You can learn something new every day. Thanks for the link.

However, my mistake was in not stating my assumptions which would show why I chose the formula I chose, namely:
F = ma = m(∆d/t[sup]2[/sup]) = 2400 lbs ((30 ft/1 s[sup]2[/sup]) = -9954 N (the minus meaning it is working against the pulse's energy).

I assumed:
* The time of displacement was 1 second (no disagreement there I think).
* The displacement was 30 ft.
* Propulsive force was applied to the object (the GB) in a single pulse when the boom gun is fired.
* Force applied by pulse was not constant, so no acceleration after the initial pulse.
* The object had a highly rapid acceleration in a micro interval followed by the majority of the time decelerating due to gravity and air/ground friction.
* Deceleration is presumed constant.
* The object came to rest with a final velocity (v[sub]f[/sub]) of 0 ft/s.
* Force applied by the pulse in an instant is equal to the total force applied by gravity/friction during the time interval of 1 second.
* The object's initial velocity (v[sub]i[/sub]) following the pulse was 30 ft/s, as the object would have continued at this velocity in a vacuum given no acceleration/deceleration.

The point is to apply the equivalent of all the accumulated force from gravity/friction at the initial point of deceleration, rather than over time, to counter the initial force of the pulse.

[guardiandashi]

one consideration is if the creature/being has flight capability if they can fly then thye can use said flight capability to "lean into" and soak at lease some od the recoil.

now personally I am going to point out one of the other giant elephants in the room. the recoil ascribed to the boom gun firing.

1 how much does a boom bun round (specifically the "bullet" (flechette) portion that is thrown down range.

every time I try to calculate it I come up with the fact that there is no way that a boom gun round ONLY travels at mach 5
assumptions that need to be considered
1 weight of the bullet
2 mass of the gun, and mass of the glitter boy
the fact that there is supposed to be enough force/recoil to throw a 1.2 ton glitterboy 30ft
for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, meaning the same force applied to throwing the glitterboy backwards is applied to projecting the round.

[ShadowLogan]

o how does the Hell Angel do it? It's gotta be able to come up with whatever amount of thrust it takes within that range, but only travels at 260 at top speed. As far as weight differences, let's assume that the Glitterboy (which weighs as much as the Super SAMAS without its jetpack) has a similar jetpack to the Super SAMAS or even the Icarus Flight System in Jucier Uprising or Condor Death Wing in Heroes of Humanity which weighs the same as the Super SAMAS jetpack & have considerable power

The 300-1800kN might be exaggerating the Force as it assumes the toss distance occurrs in 1second since its BG is the same as the normal G10's (so it should be closer to 20kN) the farther distance is either happening over a longer (unstated) time stretch and/or is a result of it being airborne (no ground to "scrape" as you are pushed back). We see something similar described for underwater operations when the pylon system is not engaged on the G10 (1d4x100 yards/meters, 1d4+3 APM per RUE but an APM is not a fixed unit of time as it can run from 7sec upto nearly 30sec).

There is another factor to consider for a flying object that is going to have an impact here: Drag Force. And that is a can of worms I am not willing to open at this time as it would be highly dependent on changing variables. For example, if the Icarus-style units fly prone (to minimize drag) then they can achieve higher speeds than Power Armor units that don't fly prone (and the SAMAS doesn't fly prone). The type of material they are made from can also have an impact on drag. There are things that can be done to reduce drag that might have been implemented on the other units, but not the X710 (and might be incompatible).

While not the fastest unit around, the X710 is sort of "middle of the pack" looking at a sample of 57 Rifts Power Armor units and their atmospheric flight configurations (28 units are faster on that list). If you're looking for a way to make a given unit go faster, it might just be easier to "handwave" into existence a transport unit for them to either ride in (FQ's GB transport for example) or connect to (Icarus-style units) with your desired performance.

[EliBenedict]

The whole business of the physics of a boom gun are all kind of hand-wavey to begin with, and tend to fall apart if you look at them too closely (and especially if you start doing actual calculations).