Learning from Scrolls

[Aermas]

Can LLW & other practiced practitioners learn esoteric magic from scrolls?

Like, if I have a player that wants to learn D-Envelope or Stasis Field, can I just let him use a scroll to learn (even if the scroll is incredibly rare) or does he have to learn from a Temporal Wizard/Raider? What about Elemental spells or other exotic spell methods. I feel like a Rift trotting wizard would be keen to learn all, they could just for posterity if anything.

[darthauthor]

IF it is possible I'd say it would take repeated attempts and practice before one could cast it with consist and reliable results.

I GUESS it would be like learning a song. It is NOT JUST knowing the lyrics and repeat them but a number of others things like emphasis and timing and a lot of other things I am guessing at.

BUT in theory I believe it ought to be POSSIBLE.

[Library Ogre]

If trying to learn from a scroll, I'd impose a penalty, probably 20%, which will kill the chance for a lot of wizards. I'd also follow the general rule of "magic outside your specialty is double cost". I like to think that, while they all fall under a general heading of "spell magic", and have some similar outcomes and game mechanics, this doubling of cost comes from the two types not being entirely compatible... a horse and a donkey may make the quite useful mule, but they don't work exactly the same on the inside.

Incidentally, I love that your Comment shows a third kind of person... people who quote themselves.

[Grazzik]

For learning magic from scrolls in Rifts, I usually start with RUE pg 191 - a percentile roll to see if it was learned. It's low already (10% + 2% per lvl) so no need to add a penalty. Now, it doesn't say that you have to actually use up the scroll (i.e. read out loud) in the process of learning.

As a GM, I would say that as a final step to confirm one knows how to cast the spell correctly, one would need to read the scroll aloud to confirm pronunciation is correct. This would use up the scroll. To not do so would save the scroll for use by someone else, but the mage is probably running the risk of miscasting the spell and suffering dire consequences. RUE and BoM don't seem to have a consequence table for miscasting spells, but PF MoM and Nightbane TtGD have consequence tables for what goes wrong with unstable or flawed spell invention that could be adapted for the purposes of mislearning spells.

The Create Magic Scroll spell (BoM pg 140) says that copies can't be made of the scroll's contents, so I figure then that to learn the spell on the scroll takes memorization. Perhaps the psychic power of Total Recall can help on that, if available. Otherwise, it will be quite some time spent reading the spell unspoken.

This is very different from PFRPG where (as per MoM pg 58) once a scroll is started to be read (even if unspoken) the spell will dissipate from the scroll. So the user must be ready to use the scroll by reading aloud or memorize it from the one reading. Here Total Recall or a photographic memory would be essential!

PFRPG Core pg 105 seems to indicate that even a cursory glance without reading aloud could activate a spell. Even so, it does set the chance of a Wizard learning a spell from a scroll at 8% + 2% per level. Needless to say, while the % is low, it is pretty decent for a single glance, while in Rifts you can read a scroll unspoken as many times as you want and only get a 2% bump.

[Curbludgeon]

Two of the classes from Mystic China are good enough at learning from scrolls to make it feasable. Their PPE is low enough that they essentially have to burn magical calligraphy until they can put together a basic vajra, but it snowballs from there. They'd be a good choice for a demigod, in games which allow more variety in magical class selection. Doing that also gets around the Chi Arcanist's intentionally limited HtH.

[ShadowLogan]

Can LLW & other practiced practitioners learn esoteric magic from scrolls?

Provided they mage has Literacy and is NOT of a branch that is "gifted" spells (like a Mystic, Warlock, or Witch) but learns magic in the traditional sense, yes they can learn from studying magic scrolls (RUE pg 191 as Grazzik posted).

Like, if I have a player that wants to learn D-Envelope or Stasis Field, can I just let him use a scroll to learn (even if the scroll is incredibly rare) or does he have to learn from a Temporal Wizard/Raider? What about Elemental spells or other exotic spell methods. I feel like a Rift trotting wizard would be keen to learn all, they could just for posterity if anything.

I think some magic types are "gifted" like Elemental spells which might be out (in point of fact PF2E says Elemental magic doesn't use spoken invocations). Then you have Rituals (like Create Golem, or Circle Magic or Diabolism essentially) that likely cannot be converted to Scrolls, though likely can have written instructions (IIRC Summoners from PF2E have notebooks on this). Really any spell that can be taught likely though can be converted to a Scroll.

However there is the creation method of the scroll itself to consider. The Wizard Invocation approach (Level 11 spell/ritual) implies the mage needs to know the spell being transferred to the scroll, which would seem to rule out learning other forms of magic unless the mage creating it has multi-classed. Other approaches to creating Scrolls might exist, I just don't know of them off hand (Necromancy and Ocean magic have Invocation list options, but neither include Create Magic Scroll).

[Grazzik]

ShadowLogan is correct - powers from elementals, mystics, etc, that are not spells, but granted powers, cannot be captured as a scroll... unless a wizard has studied the power's effect and tried to craft a custom spell to emulate a similar effect. It's not the same power, just the result of the incantation makes it look like it. As I mentioned, Nightbane's rules re custom magic spells in TtGD is a great resource for this. However, I'd say that when it comes to rituals, the ceremonies are so convoluted, that it is probably very difficult to condense down to a spell. While some regular rituals have spell equivalents, I'd say that higher level or unique rituals are just too complex or specialized to turn into a spell.

I'd also agree with SL's point about having to know the spell. However, if there were some way of temporarily transferring (either via magical or psionic means) the ability to cast a particular spell to a wizard with the Create Scroll spell, then the wizard could create as many scrolls as they could during the time they knew of the spell in question. This could expand the access to unique magicks or at least inspire spellcasters when creating their own custom spells.

As a side note, in some areas I would presume that there might be a deep discount on demon magic/blood magic/soulmancy scrolls during the Minion War as each side tries to stir up trouble and strife (either intentionally or just for fun) by flooding the market with scrolls. This might lead to the corruption of many a good wizard (read: alignment shift) who thinks that they could learn the dark spells from the scroll with the intention of doing good deeds.

Finally, I know that there is commentary in PFRPG and TtGD about spell books, such as the ability to learn from them; however, it is unclear how spell books and grimoires are to work in Rifts (assuming the spellcaster has the appropriate literacy). How have folks dealt with such items? Are they like Rifts scrolls in that they can be read unspoken as many times as you want? If read from a book, I've always assumed that the book has no PPE which must be supplied by the caster, so the spell remains in the book and does not disappear, thereby allowing for ongoing use and learning by future generations of spellcasters. This is what makes magic books so much more expensive than scrolls. Any thoughts on that in the context of Rifts? Any lessons learned from PFRPG or NB gameplay?

[Curbludgeon]

A way the above mentioned demigod Chi Immortalist/Ley Line Walker (or other "learned" caster) can snag speciality spells is via writing scrolls of the spell Create Magic Scroll to serve as an eldritch amanuensis. The spell Id Alter Ego can produce a copy of a caster recalcitrant to share, and providing a PPE battery gives the copy enough juice to cast the spells which get inscribed.

[Fenris2020]

According to the book, you learn spells from scrolls (presuming the character is literate, which, I mean, why wouldn't he/ she be literate?) at 10% +2%/ Level. I personally add the IQ bonus, since it seems to be a skill of sorts and that makes sense.

[Grazzik]

I personally add the IQ bonus, since it seems to be a skill of sorts and that makes sense.

I'd agree, that does make sense. Also, it is usually not too egregious a bonus.

Speaking of attributes, what if the first time a learned spell is cast, the wizard is required to do a ME attribute check to make sure they don't choke due to nerves? Might be appropriate for higher level spells where weird things might happen if there's a slip up and the PPE isn't properly controlled...

[Fenris2020]

I personally add the IQ bonus, since it seems to be a skill of sorts and that makes sense.

I'd agree, that does make sense. Also, it is usually not too egregious a bonus.

Speaking of attributes, what if the first time a learned spell is cast, the wizard is required to do a ME attribute check to make sure they don't choke due to nerves? Might be appropriate for higher level spells where weird things might happen if there's a slip up and the PPE isn't properly controlled...

Nah, that's throwing too much crap into a game; and I don't like screwing over players arbitrarily.

[ShadowLogan]

Speaking of attributes, what if the first time a learned spell is cast, the wizard is required to do a ME attribute check to make sure they don't choke due to nerves? Might be appropriate for higher level spells where weird things might happen if there's a slip up and the PPE isn't properly controlled...

In general, No I don't think this is a good idea. I would assume that in most cases the mage has practiced the spell/ritual "off screen" so they shouldn't "choke".

Now there are spell/rituals that likely can't be practiced (Create Golem, Create Zombie, etc) where such a check might be appropriate but those would be specific exceptions and even then I'd probably not go with it.

The one area I could see it done though is for a "in training" character (like a Level 0 character who is changing OCC).