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In Secrets of Atlantis there's a chart to determine Psionics for Clan Aerihman. There is a chance to role a Master Psychic. But playing a psychic PCC/OCC is always an option, determining psychic power potential has always been in addition to your regular class choices. Does this mean that Clan Aerihman has the possibility to have the abilities (not necessarily the skills) of a PCC on top of their chosen OCC?

Come on. There are a higher percentage of psychics among the population, such that ~16% of people in the clan have a Master Psychic class. There aren't any Master Psionics in Clan Aerihman who don't have a master psychic class. If there were it would have said what powers such would grant, akin to what one sees in the Gladiator class when the psionic option is selected.

The book explicitly says its not just a population census, but a change to standard character creation. It says "When creating a character who is
member of the Aerihman clan, roll on the table"

It also includes the option to downgrade if you want. But it's kind of odd that they'd have Master Psychics as an option

Forgive the tautology, but for the relevant text to explicitly say its not just a population census it needs to say that. I'm not seeing anything there to suggest that master psionics are available in this case without taking a master psionic class.

What else could "when creating a character meaning other than during creating a character? So if I chose to play a Clan Aerihman Stone Master, & then rolled 92 on the psychic roll, what would happen?

If you wanted to leave the potential selection of a master psychic class up to chance, and were interested in switching from Stone Master to that class then have fun. Otherwise you'd roll up a Stone Master with Major Psionics.

What are you suggesting happens?

I wasn't sure, hence the thread. It seemed odd to me that the rules in the RUE exclude Master Psychic OCC/PCCs as a pure choice decision but then in Secrets of Atlantis they add it as it's own category.

Curbludgeon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:44 pm Forgive the tautology, but for the relevant text to explicitly say its not just a population census it needs to say that. I'm not seeing anything there to suggest that master psionics are available in this case without taking a master psionic class.

Found a relevant explanation to the Clan Aerihman Psychic question.
In the Sunaj Assassin O.C.C. page 83 at the top right of the page. A Sunaj Assassin that is a Master Psychic gains all the benefits of the chosen Psychic class when it comes to Psychic Powers & such per level but no other class bonuses or skills.

This leads me to believe that this is the appropriate way of handling any Master Psychics rolled from Clan Aerihman. They gain all the I.S.P. & powers of a Master Psychic, they progress with those powers/gain new ones as if they are that P.C.C. but they gain nothing else.

I'd contend the Sunaj Assassins are an exception to the usual rules for Aeh. Master Psychics. For non Assassins they are described as selecting an OCC. Assassins have de facto selected the Sunaj Assassin OCC, but can use the ISP\abilities from a Psychic OCC at the cost of skills\tattoos. If, for instance, an Aeh. Undead Slayer were to roll for Master Psionics, there's nothing written to make explicit what they lose in terms of skills\tattoos. (ed sp)

I would say any OCC that doesn't give you 6+ Magic Tattoos, or otherwise effect the True Atlantean's physiology/psychic nature would allow you to keep the psychic powers & progression & if you did have 6+ tattoos you'd be downgraded to Major.

Aermas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:24 pm What else could "when creating a character meaning other than during creating a character? So if I chose to play a Clan Aerihman Stone Master, & then rolled 92 82 on the psychic roll, what would happen?

If following "proper" character creation, you have determined psionics (Step 4) before choosing an OCC (Step 5). So nothing happens because as far as the rules are concerned you cannot choose to be a Stone Master and then roll for psionics. You would have to have already forgone being a master psychic to choose being a Stone Master in the first place.

Or you could roll, then assign an OCC & follow the Sunaj Assassin's lead (halving skills & gaining only the Psychic abilities & leveling) there's nothing improper about that

Aermas wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 pm Or you could roll, then assign an OCC & follow the Sunaj Assassin's lead (halving skills & gaining only the Psychic abilities & leveling) there's nothing improper about that

That's a perfectly fine house rule, yes. However, as I pointed out, if you follow the rules for character creation, the scenario you presented cannot happen. It's why you can forgo being a master psionic to only be a major. A house rule cannot really be "improper", but that is beside the point being made.

You originally asked asked if Clan Aerihman have the chance of having a PCC on top of an OCC by using the random table in the book. The answer is no, not according to the rules presented.

They can. Sunaj Assassin proves it. If you want to interpret the rules differently that's fine, it's your table.

Aermas wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:30 am They can. Sunaj Assassin proves it. If you want to interpret the rules differently that's fine, it's your table.

The Sunaj Assassin by itself is nothing more than an exception to a rule. Rifts is riddled with them. If you want to make the case that there is an underlying rule at play across the game - say, genetically adapted beings with human DNA from Earth (excluding aliens or monsters) can have the powers of a master psychic and can pick a OCC rather than a PCC - you need to point to more than one highly specialized exception to say it is RAW.

As pointed out, RAW state a process that requires a PCC for master psychics using the rules in RUE and general practice across the books. There is, as pointed out, nothing in the Atlantean write up that would suggest you could typically have a Rouge Scientist with the powers of a Burster, or a Mind Melter Preacher. So, on that basis, your suggestion is an excellent and intuitive house rule, and I would suggest you embrace it.

However, there is a glimmer of light - there is another genetically adapted being with human DNA from Earth that is a master psychic and can pick an OCC... the Free Born Dog Boy (WB13 pg 39). I don't have Coalition Manhunters, so not sure if there are other rules in there that also govern master psychics taking an OCC. But at least with the Free Born, it may be argued that if the conditions are a genetically adapted being with human DNA from Earth that is a master psychic, they may forgo the PCC and adopt an OCC. It could be argued that the Super-Spy OCC (Mercs pg 27) is also a path to a rule of a master psychic with an OCC despite not being genetically adapted - but this is a very specific rule mechanic just for that OCC.

Now, note that this is not carte blanche to munchkin the heck out of a PC - the consequence of putting time and effort into selecting an OCC instead of practicing their psychic abilities must have some consequence. In the case of the Free Born, by RAW they have an extremely limited choice of psychic abilities since their abilities are effectively hardcoded by their genetics. They also don't typically take magical OCCs. The Sunaj Assassins may have greater variability, but are nerfed in skill selection by RAW. To extend either of these treatments to any other instance would be a house rule, as the treatments are not consistent and there is no game mechanic that expressly says you can do this. Any leap of logic is a house rule in the game of Rifts.

Bottom line, the argument that by RAW any Clan Aerihman master psychic (other than Sunaj Assassins) can opt for an OCC rather than a PCC is dubious at best without more explicit evidence of a game mechanic written in the books that overrules RUE, and by a strict reading of RAW not allowed except in highly specialized exceptions.

Aermas wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:30 am They can. Sunaj Assassin proves it. If you want to interpret the rules differently that's fine, it's your table.

No, it doesn't. Sunaj Assassin provides rules specific to the Sunaj Assassin. Again, that's a perfectly reasonable house rule, but that is not what the books allow.

Note: I don't have access to Secrets of the Atlanteans nor do I have access to my books ro no page numbers sorry.

What I would, and have done for other classes or races that have a Master Psionic option without detailing the powers is to modify the listing under the Super Spy OCC from Rifts Mercenaries.

Aermas wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 pm Or you could roll, then assign an OCC & follow the Sunaj Assassin's lead (halving skills & gaining only the Psychic abilities & leveling) there's nothing improper about that

I believe the Momano Headhunter from Rifts Canada does something like that I believe. They can get master level psi powers but reduced Related and Secondary skills.

Aermas wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:16 pm Found a relevant explanation to the Clan Aerihman Psychic question.
In the Sunaj Assassin O.C.C. page 83 at the top right of the page.
A Sunaj Assassin that is a Master Psychic gains all the benefits of the chosen Psychic class when it comes to Psychic Powers & such per level but no other class bonuses or skills.

pg 83 of Secrets of the Atlanteans is a strange divergence since originally in WB2 on pg 67 it went out of it's way to say "The super psionic category is not available" after explaining the major psionic abilities that the assassins all had.

Of course back then there were Sunaj Mind Bleeders since this preceeded Africa establishing them as a different species from humans.