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Lynx8882 wrote:only problem i can see with this is the potintial to abuse it imagine the Crazy who has so much faith in his old (insert any item of choice here) that hes had for years that becuase his nutcase mind has soo much faith in it its a deadly weapon against any vampire get my drift?

Lynx

It's no worse now then having a player take a really big 'Nerf' cross and using that to beat at vampires. Or the stupidity of a flashlight with a cross painted on the lens doing damage to them..... While there are many things about the Rifts vampires I did like, their odd weakness to any type of crosses just annoys me.


Daniel Stoker

jeffkevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

1. Get a copy of Vampire Kingdoms. It is one of the best Rifts books ever written.

2. How do Crosses work?
Palladium doesn't explain how crosses work. They probably don't even know.

3. "WHY crosses work against vampires, it's because the vampires of legend were affected by crossed. Why? Because Christians of yesteryear saw them as demons and everybody knows that demons are affected by crosses and other holy items.

4. "But in Rifts, Demons are not affected by crosses..."
Yup. But they apparently weren't thinking about that... they just looked back over the vampire legends and used some of the most common weaknesses of vampires (running water, crosses, wood stakes, etc.)

5. "So how should I explain it in the game?"
Choose one (or more) of the following:

a) The Christian God exists in Rifts Earth. He hates vampires and His power flowes through crosses and other Christian holy symbols.
b) The Judas thing. It also explains why Silver hurts them, but unfortunately it doesn't explain the running water or daylight.
Personally, I think this concept is one of those that sounds great when you first hear it (Dracula 2000), but quickly becomes old.
c) Nobody knows. It just works.
d) Crosses are actually much older than Christianity. Maybe vampires have a ancient enemy out to destroy them and the whole "symbol of Christianity" thing is just a coincidence.
e) Jesus was actually an essence fragment of the first and most powerful Vampire Intelligence. He was overcome by Roman mages and sacrificed in such a powerful ritual that vampires across the megaverse are still weakened by it.
f) it is the power of faith and an anhk, star of David, or a Crazy's "magic hat" could do the same thing.
(I don't particularly like this one, though.)
g) It is the power of Faith. Vampires all KNOW so strongly that they are hurt by crosses that they psychosomatically hurt themselves everytime they see or touch one.
(don't like this one much either)
h) The Spanish Inquisition was a massive purging of vampires. A number of Vampire Intelligences were already on Earth at the time and were severly wounded and forced to retreat. So great was their defeat that it left a permanent psychological scar on all of them; fear and hatred of crosses to the point that their minions all actually suffer damage from touching one and cannot abide the sight of one.

The Shadow of a cross is their because its being projected by light, but I have always modified that to be a HF reaction to being hit by the shadow unless the light is caused by a GOD spell

JeffKevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

It's actually more of a Palladium thing, "ported" over to Rifts.

As I understand it in Palladium, virtually ANY Holy Symbol will repulse a Vampire, from Crucifixes to Stars of David to Swastikas (the original ones, NOT the "inverted" Nazi one)......

mattling wrote:A lot of people make house rules on this subject; however I've always figured that the resemblence of a cross to a crucifix is merely a happy coincidence. In fact, the cross strongly resembles a ward (as in diabolism, circle magic, etc) of restraint. So in fact it's a powerful magical, not religious, symbol.

I'd stay away from any religious angle.

This is probably the closest thing I can think of. A cross, is the mystic symbol of protection, used, in all summoning circles to help protect the summoner. So the cross can not only defend against vampires, but other things, but requires a circle to do it. So, by default the cross protects against vampires.

Since vampires are all about symbols (Such as them being weak to moving water because it is a symbol of cleansing), staking them through the heart being a symbol for binding them to the earth it works out well. Hell, vampires themselves are a symbol of many things, like life after death, the supernatural...ect...

mattling wrote:A lot of people make house rules on this subject; however I've always figured that the resemblence of a cross to a crucifix is merely a happy coincidence. In fact, the cross strongly resembles a ward (as in diabolism, circle magic, etc) of restraint. So in fact it's a powerful magical, not religious, symbol.

Or perhaps I go with the religious angle that has been explored in many different games. I always liked the idea of vampires being descended from Judas-- hence their vulnerabilities (silver, wood, fire, and sunlight)

Of course we don't want to go too far and claim Cain because then we'd be stepping on copyright toes.

surfdruid wrote:one interesting spin i saw for the whole Vamps Vs. Cross thing came out of an old X-Men comic:

X-men encounter dracula. Fun ensues. Dracula corners Kitty Pride. Kitty tries to ward him away with a cross. Nothing happens. Dracula reaches for her neck. Puts his hand on the Star of David she wears around her neck. His hand gets seared. Turns out, Kitty is jewish!

The whole deal being, that it isnt "The Cross" in particular that wards off the vamp, but rather any holy symbol, with the proper faith put behind it. If you dont believe in the power of the cross, the cross will do nothing.

So if your Budhist then your body acts as a ward?

Lynx8882 wrote:

surfdruid wrote:one interesting spin i saw for the whole Vamps Vs. Cross thing came out of an old X-Men comic:

X-men encounter dracula. Fun ensues. Dracula corners Kitty Pride. Kitty tries to ward him away with a cross. Nothing happens. Dracula reaches for her neck. Puts his hand on the Star of David she wears around her neck. His hand gets seared. Turns out, Kitty is jewish!

The whole deal being, that it isnt "The Cross" in particular that wards off the vamp, but rather any holy symbol, with the proper faith put behind it. If you dont believe in the power of the cross, the cross will do nothing.

only problem i can see with this is the potintial to abuse it imagine the Crazy who has so much faith in his old (insert any item of choice here) that hes had for years that becuase his nutcase mind has soo much faith in it its a deadly weapon against any vampire get my drift?

Lynx

So? A cross could be used just as easily. One can always limit it to 'Must be held'.

cornholioprime wrote:

JeffKevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

It's actually more of a Palladium thing, "ported" over to Rifts.

As I understand it in Palladium, virtually ANY Holy Symbol will repulse a Vampire, from Crucifixes to Stars of David to Swastikas (the original ones, NOT the "inverted" Nazi one)......

Ah!! But running Water didn't hurt the Gersidi(sp).

cornholioprime wrote:

JeffKevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

It's actually more of a Palladium thing, "ported" over to Rifts.

As I understand it in Palladium, virtually ANY Holy Symbol will repulse a Vampire, from Crucifixes to Stars of David to Swastikas (the original ones, NOT the "inverted" Nazi one)......

I tend to go the 'any holy symbol' rout myself. Although I define it as 'any symbol that has enough belief behind it." Particulary after seeing an episode of Dr Who in which a soviet officer held off a vampire with his hammer&sickle badge.

Kalinda wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

JeffKevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

It's actually more of a Palladium thing, "ported" over to Rifts.

As I understand it in Palladium, virtually ANY Holy Symbol will repulse a Vampire, from Crucifixes to Stars of David to Swastikas (the original ones, NOT the "inverted" Nazi one)......

I tend to go the 'any holy symbol' rout myself. Although I define it as 'any symbol that has enough belief behind it." Particulary after seeing an episode of Dr Who in which a soviet officer held off a vampire with his hammer&sickle badge.

i'd say that works better, and i'd also go with the "only repels" angle.

of course, IIRC vamps can get a few Psi powers, so a vamp with TK could mangle a symbol and ruin its effect. (ala Vampire hunter D)

Kalinda wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

JeffKevlar wrote:I know this has probably been addressed, maybe even in vampire kingdoms, but i havent seen it and dont own that book, but I was wondering about Paladium vampires and crosses.

How is it that crosses work? Is the vampire inteligence a christian devil? I thought that they were a dimension hopping evil? Doesnt something like a cross need some belief behind it and if so how can you hurt a vampire with a spotlight and duct tape?

It's actually more of a Palladium thing, "ported" over to Rifts.

As I understand it in Palladium, virtually ANY Holy Symbol will repulse a Vampire, from Crucifixes to Stars of David to Swastikas (the original ones, NOT the "inverted" Nazi one)......

I tend to go the 'any holy symbol' rout myself. Although I define it as 'any symbol that has enough belief behind it." Particulary after seeing an episode of Dr Who in which a soviet officer held off a vampire with his hammer&sickle badge.

So again does that mean a Budhist would be able to ward off a vampire simply by bareing their body? Or a martial artist? What about someone who is egocentric?

Zer0 Kay wrote:So again does that mean a Budhist would be able to ward off a vampire simply by bareing their body? Or a martial artist? What about someone who is egocentric?

LOL! Narcissism as proof against vampires!

Oh, hey, I just had a cool anti-vampire idea. Laser weapons just wreck vampires' wardrobes, right? But a projected image of a cross (or whatev) will hold them at bay.

So what happens if you attach a filter to your laser pistol, much like those filters for laser pointers that cause them to project smiley faces and the like, that forms the cross-section of the laser beam into a cross shape?

Qev wrote:Oh, hey, I just had a cool anti-vampire idea. Laser weapons just wreck vampires' wardrobes, right? But a projected image of a cross (or whatev) will hold them at bay.

So what happens if you attach a filter to your laser pistol, much like those filters for laser pointers that cause them to project smiley faces and the like, that forms the cross-section of the laser beam into a cross shape?

Ohh, I like that idea! It might work too, It's been established that the shadow of a cross will burn/repel a vamp, so why not a laser image of one?

I'm in favor of the any 'established holy symbol' will be effective. For one thing, the alternative would imply that VI's could otherwise completely overrun entire worlds just because the planet in question may never of heard of this Christ guy. Imagine a VI locating a twilight Dune-like world. There would be nothing stopping them...

In terms of 'holy symbols'. The item in question should be from an established pantheon or Deity. I don't think I would allow any old object the Crazy has a liking for at that particular moment. The idea being that by simply presenting an ankh, or cross, or the jingly triangle of Rurga (whatever) you are in fact channeling a miniscule portion of the representative deity's divine power, and that is what is holding the vamp at bay. You still have to have faith in the item for it to work, as in you should be a follower of Isis, or else you can't channel any of Isis' goodwill or protection.

In short, whatever the item is, there has to be some kind of divine power to back it up...

It's not the cross, it's actually the plus sign. Vampire Intelligences are universally bad at math, and hate being reminded that they flunked their college entrance exams because of this, thus the 'cross' wards them away. No, seriously!

Qev wrote:It's not the cross, it's actually the plus sign. Vampire Intelligences are universally bad at math, and hate being reminded that they flunked their college entrance exams because of this, thus the 'cross' wards them away. No, seriously!

"Math is hard..." Barbie.

Res_Novae wrote:Why don't you get a couple nuclear powered trucks, and attached a rotating circle of about 6 60" searchlights with a cross filter on them, and just drive around mexico?

'Cause you can't KILL (Rifts) Vamps with the Cross.

Just Pi$$ them off...a LOT.

And after they send their Minions to destroy your Trucks' Searchlights, you (and probably your whole family) are going to get an all-expenses paid trip to the Feeding Pools of Muluc.........

Killer Cyborg wrote:5. "So how should I explain it in the game?"
Choose one (or more) of the following:

a) The Christian God exists in Rifts Earth. He hates vampires and His power flowes through crosses and other Christian holy symbols.
b) The Judas thing. It also explains why Silver hurts them, but unfortunately it doesn't explain the running water or daylight.
Personally, I think this concept is one of those that sounds great when you first hear it (Dracula 2000), but quickly becomes old.
c) Nobody knows. It just works.
d) Crosses are actually much older than Christianity. Maybe vampires have a ancient enemy out to destroy them and the whole "symbol of Christianity" thing is just a coincidence.
e) Jesus was actually an essence fragment of the first and most powerful Vampire Intelligence. He was overcome by Roman mages and sacrificed in such a powerful ritual that vampires across the megaverse are still weakened by it.
f) it is the power of faith and an anhk, star of David, or a Crazy's "magic hat" could do the same thing.
(I don't particularly like this one, though.)
g) It is the power of Faith. Vampires all KNOW so strongly that they are hurt by crosses that they psychosomatically hurt themselves everytime they see or touch one.
(don't like this one much either)
h) The Spanish Inquisition was a massive purging of vampires. A number of Vampire Intelligences were already on Earth at the time and were severly wounded and forced to retreat. So great was their defeat that it left a permanent psychological scar on all of them; fear and hatred of crosses to the point that their minions all actually suffer damage from touching one and cannot abide the sight of one.

Just out of curiosity. Which, if any, do you use in your games?

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:5. "So how should I explain it in the game?"
Choose one (or more) of the following:

a) The Christian God exists in Rifts Earth. He hates vampires and His power flowes through crosses and other Christian holy symbols.
b) The Judas thing. It also explains why Silver hurts them, but unfortunately it doesn't explain the running water or daylight.
Personally, I think this concept is one of those that sounds great when you first hear it (Dracula 2000), but quickly becomes old.
c) Nobody knows. It just works.
d) Crosses are actually much older than Christianity. Maybe vampires have a ancient enemy out to destroy them and the whole "symbol of Christianity" thing is just a coincidence.
e) Jesus was actually an essence fragment of the first and most powerful Vampire Intelligence. He was overcome by Roman mages and sacrificed in such a powerful ritual that vampires across the megaverse are still weakened by it.
f) it is the power of faith and an anhk, star of David, or a Crazy's "magic hat" could do the same thing.
(I don't particularly like this one, though.)
g) It is the power of Faith. Vampires all KNOW so strongly that they are hurt by crosses that they psychosomatically hurt themselves everytime they see or touch one.
(don't like this one much either)
h) The Spanish Inquisition was a massive purging of vampires. A number of Vampire Intelligences were already on Earth at the time and were severly wounded and forced to retreat. So great was their defeat that it left a permanent psychological scar on all of them; fear and hatred of crosses to the point that their minions all actually suffer damage from touching one and cannot abide the sight of one.

Just out of curiosity. Which, if any, do you use in your games?

C.

My take on the Holy symbol and Vampires issue can be summed up by this conversation...

Hero: (brandishing a cross) "Back foul hell spawn!"
Vamp: "sigh...a cross? that works on faith..."
Hero: "Yes, and fortunately I happen to be devout!"
Vamp: Grins evilly as he steps forward and removes the cross from the heroes hands "and unfortunatly for you I am agnostic."
hero: "oh hell."

demoncat130 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Res_Novae wrote:Why don't you get a couple nuclear powered trucks, and attached a rotating circle of about 6 60" searchlights with a cross filter on them, and just drive around mexico?

'Cause you can't KILL (Rifts) Vamps with the Cross.

Just Pi$$ them off...a LOT.

And after they send their Minions to destroy your Trucks' Searchlights, you (and probably your whole family) are going to get an all-expenses paid trip to the Feeding Pools of Muluc.........

I quite agree. The cross ticks them off, and can sometimes turn them away, but it will not kill them.

Damage from the shadow of a cross can reduce them below zero at which time they're sprayed to oblivion by their TW water cannons.

Damian Magecraft wrote:My take on the Holy symbol and Vampires issue can be summed up by this conversation...

Hero: (brandishing a cross) "Back foul hell spawn!"
Vamp: "sigh...a cross? that works on faith..."
Hero: "Yes, and fortunately I happen to be devout!"
Vamp: Grins evilly as he steps forward and removes the cross from the heroes hands "and unfortunatly for you I am agnostic."
hero: "oh hell."

wasn't that or something like it from a movie?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:My take on the Holy symbol and Vampires issue can be summed up by this conversation...

Hero: (brandishing a cross) "Back foul hell spawn!"
Vamp: "sigh...a cross? that works on faith..."
Hero: "Yes, and fortunately I happen to be devout!"
Vamp: Grins evilly as he steps forward and removes the cross from the heroes hands "and unfortunatly for you I am agnostic."
hero: "oh hell."

wasn't that or something like it from a movie?

I believe you may be thinking of an older 80's gem called Fright Night.

Kelorin wrote:I believe you may be thinking of an older 80's gem called Fright Night.

Are you sure? I could swear I remember crosses working rather well in that movie.



Daniel Stoker

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:My take on the Holy symbol and Vampires issue can be summed up by this conversation...

Hero: (brandishing a cross) "Back foul hell spawn!"
Vamp: "sigh...a cross? that works on faith..."
Hero: "Yes, and fortunately I happen to be devout!"
Vamp: Grins evilly as he steps forward and removes the cross from the heroes hands "and unfortunatly for you I am agnostic."
hero: "oh hell."

wasn't that or something like it from a movie?

There was a vampire in "Fearless vampire hunters." When someone waved a cross in his face he just chuckled and said "Boy, have you got the wrong vampire."

He was Jewish before he got turned you see...

Was thinking of this last night, there are two magic tattoos involving either undead and or vampires, the heart impaled with stake and the cross.

The Heart impaled tat is protection from vamps (mind control and can't be turned into one) yet it does not repel them.

The Cross is the same as turning the dead which has no effect on vamps.

By default do you think the cross would repel them because it's a cross? (a side effect if you will).

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Kelorin wrote:I believe you may be thinking of an older 80's gem called Fright Night.

Are you sure? I could swear I remember crosses working rather well in that movie.

Daniel Stoker

IF you had faith.

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote:Was thinking of this last night, there are two magic tattoos involving either undead and or vampires, the heart impaled with stake and the cross.

The Heart impaled tat is protection from vamps (mind control and can't be turned into one) yet it does not repel them.

The Cross is the same as turning the dead which has no effect on vamps.

By default do you think the cross would repel them because it's a cross? (a side effect if you will).

The Vampire Power Armor in Merc Ops addresses (I believe) crosses painted on power armor. They work at close range, to a limited extent, and only on wild vampires.
Tattoos of crosses would likely work the same way.