This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Zer0 Kay]

Original Title: Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?

Please site rules or logic for allowing or disallowing the capability. For history on this topic please look into the "Plausable Cause" thread tword the last few pages for the ongoing debate which will hopefully tranfer here.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No. it says quite clearly in the Book of Magic that, except for some specified spells, spells do not work though eviromental seals.

teleport is notsuch an exception, and thus it will not work.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I might be willing to make an exception for a vehicle that's windows or hatches are open.

you'd have to. then it's not sealed

[Zer0 Kay]

Tell the truth I don't care. I'm just trying to get svartalf and TechnoMancer somewhere to hash out their differences. But please everyone still coment to add fuel to their fire.

[Svartalf]

I say yes.

Some peole cite the "armored shell" rule that says that you cannot cast a spell through the shell of a vehicle or power armor to disallow this.

I don't agree

I regard this rule as applying only to the fact that there can be no intervening obstacles between the mage and his target. that is, the mage and whatever the spell is affecting. the "target location" for a Tport is strictly not concerned by this rule

Teleport being able to pass through any number of barrieres of any thickness, there just isn't any logical reason why a sealed, armored, bot or vehicle couldn't be a starting or arrival point, so long as the other conditions for the working of the spell are met.

so if you have a cabin in some big ATV or camper style vehicle, and you know it well ... you definitely can teleport to it. and if the CS have captured you and imprisoned you in the cargo bay of an APC, without taking precautions to prevent you from magicking ... well, if you got 600 PPE, you can escape.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I say yes.

Some peole cite the "armored shell" rule that says that you cannot cast a spell through the shell of a vehicle or power armor to disallow this.

I don't agree

I regard this rule as applying only to the fact that there can be no intervening obstacles between the mage and his target. that is, the mage and whatever the spell is affecting. the "target location" for a Tport is strictly not concerned by this rule

Teleport being able to pass through any number of barrieres of any thickness, there just isn't any logical reason why a sealed, armored, bot or vehicle couldn't be a starting or arrival point, so long as the other conditions for the working of the spell are met.

so if you have a cabin in some big ATV or camper style vehicle, and you know it well ... you definitely can teleport to it. and if the CS have captured you and imprisoned you in the cargo bay of an APC, without taking precautions to prevent you from magicking ... well, if you got 600 PPE, you can escape.

that dosn't make any sense. you're closed off from magic in enviromentally sealed things.

[Svartalf]

The rules clearly state that you can't teleport a fusion block, for example, into a vehicle or robot -- much less yourself -- that is environmentally sealed.

I might be willing to make an exception for a vehicle that's windows or hatches are open.

really? I know the "armored shell" rule, originated in RMB (though I don't remember where) and quoted again on p 21 of BoM.

but since you mention environmental seals, and that isn't in that rule ... nor mentioned in the spell descriptions ... may I ask where it is from?

[Svartalf]

that dosn't make any sense. you're closed off from magic in enviromentally sealed things.

Sorry , no such thing to my knowledge. being encased in metal does disrupt your spell casting ability. But I never saw anything about environmentally sealed things.

If that were the case, all the talk of people teleporting/rifting into chi town would be moot.

[Nekira Sudacne]

that dosn't make any sense. you're closed off from magic in enviromentally sealed things.

Sorry , no such thing to my knowledge. being encased in metal does disrupt your spell casting ability. But I never saw anything about environmentally sealed things.

If that were the case, all the talk of people teleporting/rifting into chi town would be moot.

did you see my very first post here? I told you where it is. . .

[Svartalf]

did you see my very first post here? I told you where it is. . .

Do you know how fraggin big the BoM is? and I can't find some rules in books I'm supposed to know for 12 years ...

[Temporalmage]

This exact qestion is in Source Book 1 near the beginning in the Q&A section. It is very specific, and predates the second ruling in the BOM, which is just a restatement.

[Svartalf]

This exact qestion is in Source Book 1 near the beginning in the Q&A section. It is very specific, and predates the second ruling in the BOM, which is just a restatement.

May I ask you to reconsider ?

I just went through that section, twice, and saw nothing even remotely germane to the subject at hand...

Are you sure it's the right book? or under what question would that be?

[Svartalf]

Page 21 in the book of magic clearly states that

*ANY* spell... can't do that.

Heck putting a mage in just a chain mail suit of armor that is made of metal and covers 51% of his body is enough to jack up the cost to t-port by 20% and include a big chance of the spell simply failing or not working fully... and people think that it can go thru all the material in a bot???

Yes ... and I contend you use that out of context as a blanket interdiction, which it is in fact not... I must admit that I'm too lazy to go back to the let's kill prozek thread to get back and copy my arguments ... but on that one, I'm certain enough of the correctness of my stance to do a Nekira.

The "armored shell" rule concerns strictly and exclusively the *targeting* of the spell, not its working once it has reached its target.

Also, I'm still waiting for more precise information about the "sealed environment" thing ... I don't remember seeing that, but would like to.

[wyliss]

Here's how I understood it.

Most spells can only be cast as Line of Sight.
Teleport works differntly.
If you KNOW the place, it's stated there is a % chance. BUT that is an AREA thing. Teleporting into a robot/power armor/other Confined space is completely out of the Question.

Acording to the Spell listing. Teleport can only move a small amount of ANY weight on the body. Where as Teleport Superior can teleport ANYTHING in a certain radius up to a certain amount of weight. Thus if there's a 1 ton car with a battery cable attached (simple example) Then the cord will be cut off at the end of the radius.

OK.. I'm new here at least, but what I know, is what I know... Feedback?

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow I thought it was going to be Nos win on the poll by a large margin. 6 to 5 hmm.

[Svartalf]

By the spell, no.
An environmental seal is more than just a "physical barrier", it's a different environment. I see all the spells that do not break through an environmental seal and conclude that PPE energy is somehow incapable of breaching a sealed environment unless it is transformed in some particular way (those spells that do work through EBA and PA), or punches through with pure force (damaging magic). Whether it's something as abstract as relativity and frame of reference, or whether PPE is some state similar to plasma (part energy, part gas) doesn't matter in this principal. This is simply the way it is in PB.

There is one way to teleport through environmental barriers. A summoner's teleport circle, with its corresponding destination teleport circle beyond the environmental barrier. This sort of teleport is much stronger, having a sort of "beacon" on the other side. It's more like dimensional teleport in some ways.

Of course, this is how I see it, because it's fair and makes sense to me. If you have issues with it, I care... honest.

Excelllent point. I might adopt it if convinced that my previous opinion is pure house ruling borne of bad reading of relevant passages.

Since I don't remember reading anything official about magic and sealed environments (for instance, in Phase world and related material, there is just nothing about mages having trouble using their skills inside a spaceship) ... would you mind directing me to some official relevant texts?

[Svartalf]

Here's how I understood it.

Most spells can only be cast as Line of Sight.
Teleport works differntly.
If you KNOW the place, it's stated there is a % chance. BUT that is an AREA thing. Teleporting into a robot/power armor/other Confined space is completely out of the Question.

Actually, I disagree ... theoretically, you COULD teleport into a suit of power armor, so long as it was currently empty and you had been in it long enough to know the interior space well (and you better be in the proper position for fitting inside as you teleport, or you're out for a nasty jolt). The same applies to any place inside a robot or other vehicle ... though I haven't decided yet what happens if you try to port into a currently occupied seat ... probably depends on how well you know that cockpit and the available room.

[Svartalf]

The "target" of the spell is the inside of the robot. As such the rule on spells that states you can't target things inside of a robot/power armor/vehicle is in full effect.

Sorry, there's the fulcrum of our disagreement. but for the purpose of the "armored shell" rule, the target of the spell is who and/or what the spell will affect. for teleport lesser, it means the object to be teleported, for teleport greater, it is the mage and whoever and whatever will go with him. The rule is definitely irrelevant to spell destination.

There is no vagueness in the rule.
word... so how is it you misunderstand it so completely?

Again... T-Port is messed up ((as are all spells)) and weakened considerably by the mage being covered ((51% or more)) by a thin suit of chain mail... and yet you think they can t-port thru several inches of a metal covered robot?

not only that ... he can Tport out of a metal clad sealed strong room itself inside an environmentally sealed facility hundreds of meters under a mountain. If THAT is possible (and if it isn't, would anybody please give me some precise directions to official text disallowing it?) why would a bot or vehicle be off limits?

Also, I think I have noticed that while metallic body and power armor DO mess up with a mages casting abilities, being in larger vehicles (any place where he is in a seat and the metal is not a skin tight case around him) does not have the same effect

As a side note.. page 21 does use the words... "ANY magic".... not some... not a few.. not all except t-port.... not as many as the GM wants... but ANY.

So a mage inside a bot or PA suit could not take anybody outside of it with him, nor, if out of such a vehicle could he affect anybody within, unless he could teleport the whole vehicle with its contents. But I still contend that you give excessive extent to this rule.

So... your arguement is really left with but 2 choices.

1. You are claiming that t-port isn't a spell...and as such doesn't follow the "ANY" statement.

2. The effect of the t-port spell doesn't include the inside of the robot/powerarmor/or vehicle even though that's where the item being t-ported ends up.

in a way ... the second isn't half as false as the first. Namely, that the spell can reach ANYWHERE in range, including in and out of robot and vehicles. the effect of the spell is the affected people and/or material, not the place of departure or arrival

Until I see some official material that states that environmentally sealed places are telport proof (and I guess that with the SoT stuff, something like that would have emerged were it the case, because I'm sure the CS would have put such a limitation to creative use) I'll go on considering that such places are no different than any other in accessibility to those spells.

BTW, are you contending that a mage, imprisoned, say, in the cargo bay of a death's head transport or similar vehicle would be unable to use teleport: lesser to send a message to friends? (I use this example because it's likely he would have enough PPE for the task, even if you deem the "metal armor" rule applicable and mess his spell casting with it, though if I read the rule correctly, that applies only to BA and PA).

[Svartalf]

Wow I thought it was going to be Nos win on the poll by a large margin. 6 to 5 hmm.

There are a large number of people on the board who are players who try to add power to their favorite classes and abilities like crazy.

Sort of like the player of "Teflon Billy".

Nope, it is actually a matter of honest rule interpretation, not munchkinnery.

BTW ... your remark is deliberately offensive, and needlessly so, since there are damn few players who'd be in a position to use that spell anything like often ... there are not many characters who have regular access to 600 PPE, or have that as an innate ability like Dragons.

[Svartalf]

svartalf, regarding the teleportation: lesser out of the cargo hold of a Death's Head Transport...

If he can see outside through a window or something like that, maybe. If he was blindfolded, or there was no way to see outside the cargo hold, or his senses were restricted to the cargo hold in some other way - I'd say not.

since the only stated requirement for the spell is to know the location the item is sent to (like the place of the party's base camp) (and I'm assuming the mage is reasonably free, or there is no way he could create a message and send it ... he'd have to use Magic Pigeon or the like)...

what does the presence of windows, or any other way to see outside, have to do with the workability of the spell?

After all, if you're in a closed room, with your senses limited to that room, you can still use the spell to send some item that is there outside, to a safekeeping place you know without having to carry it out with you.

[Dustin Fireblade]

svartalf, regarding the teleportation: lesser out of the cargo hold of a Death's Head Transport...

If he can see outside through a window or something like that, maybe. If he was blindfolded, or there was no way to see outside the cargo hold, or his senses were restricted to the cargo hold in some other way - I'd say not.

since the only stated requirement for the spell is to know the location the item is sent to (like the place of the party's base camp) (and I'm assuming the mage is reasonably free, or there is no way he could create a message and send it ... he'd have to use Magic Pigeon or the like)...

what does the presence of windows, or any other way to see outside, have to do with the workability of the spell?

After all, if you're in a closed room, with your senses limited to that room, you can still use the spell to send some item that is there outside, to a safekeeping place you know without having to carry it out with you.

It's stated on page 21 of the BoM, "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of a giant robot, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

Besides, any mage being transported on a DHT is very likely going to be blindfolded, gagged and handcuffed (and possibly drugged silly, least in my games) as part of SOP.

[Svartalf]

It's stated on page 21 of the BoM, "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of a giant robot, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

Besides, any mage being transported on a DHT is very likely going to be blindfolded, gagged and handcuffed (and possibly drugged silly, least in my games) as part of SOP.

Dustin, have you been reading this thread? I've been arguing up and down that this interpretation of the rule is excessive and irrelevant.

As the mage is inside and touching the item to teleport out, the rule *IS* for all intent and purpose respected, or will you please tell me how it is that you can teleport in and out of a sealed room under hundreds of feet of rock, but not in and out of a giant vehicle with all the room needed?

And, yes, I agree that a mage made prisoner by the CS would likely be put out of commission more effectively than I stated... which is strictly beside the point.

[Svartalf]

To add to Dustin's point, I think that a mage in the hold of a DHT with his senses deprived would have no idea where he was beyond the confines of that cargo bay. That disorientation and confinement would preclude casting anything that affects the exterior.

My point is precisely that in a teleportation spell, what is affected for rules purposes, is the object(s) and or person(s) teleported, and that the relationship between departure and arrival point is immaterial..

Neither does the mage's knowing where he is relatively to arrival point matter (even for teleport lesser) so long as he *does* know the destination location and it is within range

[Dustin Fireblade]

It's stated on page 21 of the BoM, "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of a giant robot, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

Besides, any mage being transported on a DHT is very likely going to be blindfolded, gagged and handcuffed (and possibly drugged silly, least in my games) as part of SOP.

Dustin, have you been reading this thread? I've been arguing up and down that this interpretation of the rule is excessive and irrelevant.

As the mage is inside and touching the item to teleport out, the rule *IS* for all intent and purpose respected, or will you please tell me how it is that you can teleport in and out of a sealed room under hundreds of feet of rock, but not in and out of a giant vehicle with all the room needed?

And, yes, I agree that a mage made prisoner by the CS would likely be put out of commission more effectively than I stated... which is strictly beside the point.

Yes I have been reading it.

You mentioned the DHT, example provided.

Sealed room example: Well I never said you could or not, just provided said DHT example. Can it be done? There are no rules provided for such (mainly because Palladium's magic system stinks, and was never properly adapted for a hi-tech enviroment from Palladium Fantasy) in the books (no I never have seen a "enviromentally sealed thing" either) though I would be willing to bet if KS made a ruling he would say no it could not be done since you are enclosed in the same way you are in a robot. Unless perhaps he details out a rule like Malignor presented.

And if a mage is in the sealed room, see the DHT example again.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's stated on page 21 of the BoM, "Magic cannot penetrate the skin of a giant robot, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

Besides, any mage being transported on a DHT is very likely going to be blindfolded, gagged and handcuffed (and possibly drugged silly, least in my games) as part of SOP.

Dustin, have you been reading this thread? I've been arguing up and down that this interpretation of the rule is excessive and irrelevant.

As the mage is inside and touching the item to teleport out, the rule *IS* for all intent and purpose respected, or will you please tell me how it is that you can teleport in and out of a sealed room under hundreds of feet of rock, but not in and out of a giant vehicle with all the room needed?

And, yes, I agree that a mage made prisoner by the CS would likely be put out of commission more effectively than I stated... which is strictly beside the point.

I'm going to have to call hypocrite on you, or else why did you tell me. . .

Spirit of the law?

I do guess that you also believe that you believe the Crusaders and Inquisition were following the "spirit" of such laws as Thou Shalt Not Kill, or Love Thy Neighbour As you Love Thyself when they pillaged, massacred, tortured and killed?

The law may have vagueness, but what you and DB are advocating is clearly breaking it.

about my interpretation of the Psi-Stalker rules

[Nekira Sudacne]

This whole environmental crap is getting out of hand. Fine, if you can find a rule that specifically prohibits it in the BoM, then you can call it official and dance around it. If not, god let it go. The whole environmental and metal covering 50% of the body thing was just made so mages couldn't wear power armour and cast spells, because of balance. Teleport is a spell made so that you can teleport anywhere. A special magic barrier might stop it, but just having the air sealed out is not going to stop it.

You might consider that you can teleport INTO an object. This causes instant death (which I'm not so sure I like... what if just your foot teleported into the ground?). I'd definately call the space within actual matter just as environmentally sealed as anything else, and yet you fuse right into it.

Seriously, this is sad... it's all just a plea to give technology an advantage over magic based on no sense at all. Magic defies physical laws, it defies space. What's next, saying a mystic portal can't make a passage to the other side of a wall if the other side of the wall is environmentally sealed?

If you want to protect something from hostile magic, make a sanctum.

yes, it's magic. magic CAN do anything, but no spell can do EVERYTHING (that we know of)

the listed teleport spells cannot. this does not mean it's not POSSIBLE, as there are other spells that work though enviromental seals. . .

BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT TELEPORT AS WRITTEN CANNOT.

now, if you want to make a new version of the spell that can, with slightly more PPE cost. . .

[Svartalf]

Your point is that environment doesn't matter... when it clearly does based on what is written in the books' basic rules about spellcasting. Do what you want with your house rules, though.

I would argue that if a mage is so disoriented that he doesn't know where he is with respect to the destination, then there is no way he can know if it is in range or not. That sort of ambiguity I think would disrupt his spell-casting ability beyond the confines of his cell/cargo bay/whatever.

Well ... If I did not believe my opinion to be Officially Correct interpretation of the Rules. (as opposed to a pure house rule decreed because I just don't agree with what's in the book) I wouldn't go arguing it that way. I can read as well as anyone, and would not brag of my house rules that way.

What do you mean by a "disoriented" mage? if you mean he is drugged, badly hung over, or otherwise in a state where he is not in full command of his faculties. I agree with you, since that would actually interfere with ANY spell he might try to cast (except maybe a self curing spell which he might have trained to do in just any condition, precisely for such a case.
If you mean "not knowing precisely where he is", I beg to differ. As the spell description only say he must know the destination, not where he is relatively to it. Of course, if he tried to cast the spell and the destination was out of range, it would fail.

[Svartalf]

I'm going to have to call hypocrite on you, or else why did you tell me. . .

Spirit of the law?

I do guess that you also believe that you believe the Crusaders and Inquisition were following the "spirit" of such laws as Thou Shalt Not Kill, or Love Thy Neighbour As you Love Thyself when they pillaged, massacred, tortured and killed?

The law may have vagueness, but what you and DB are advocating is clearly breaking it.

about my interpretation of the Psi-Stalker rules

Actually. I'm not invoking the spirit of the law. I'm standing by the letter of it. That is : a mage, casting a spell, cannot cast it at a target located on the other side of an "armored shell". My contention is that this rule, in the context of a teleportation spell, means that there cannot be an armored shell between the mage and any object or persons to be affected by it, as I've made clear earlier. but that, once this has been verified, the rule is satisfied and is not relevant to the presence of any "armored shell" between point of departure and point of arrival.

I know of no official text that, purposefully or incidentally, give the lie to this interpretation. The fact that, even in Palladium Fantasy, you can teleport through huge thicknesses of rock and solid material, and that there is nowhere mention of any deleterious effect of the presence of solid matter (metallic or other) or a sealed environment between departure and destination point, let me believe that I am correct.

As for the thing concerning the psi stalker case, weren't you supporting dead boy in affirming that the letter of the rule (that is the "capture" requirement) should be ignored?

[Nekira Sudacne]

it's not just SEALED we're talking about, like rock and such. ENVIROMETNALLY sealed.

that means it has to have artifical life support systems and radiation sheilding, not just air cut off.

[Svartalf]

yes, it's magic. magic CAN do anything, but no spell can do EVERYTHING (that we know of)

the listed teleport spells cannot. this does not mean it's not POSSIBLE, as there are other spells that work though enviromental seals. . .

BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT TELEPORT AS WRITTEN CANNOT.

now, if you want to make a new version of the spell that can, with slightly more PPE cost. . .

you're in a slight self contradiction there.

If the "armored shell" rule applies as absolutely as you and others contend, why should ANY spell be able to turn around it? Since Teleport Superior is a 15th lvl spell already, anything superior would be a spell of legend, and it would take some legendary figure (assumedly from the 3 galaxies where such matters have been known for many centuries) to go around it.

But you'll notice, nowhere in that stuff is the problem even mentioned ... probably because it never arose, because teleport between two "shell armored" locations, like two space ships is perfectly feasible and does not pose any problem.

Similarly, if the "armored shell" rule applied to ANY environmentally sealed locations, how come rifts are constantly opening in the lower levels of Center and Chi town?

[Nekira Sudacne]

yes, it's magic. magic CAN do anything, but no spell can do EVERYTHING (that we know of)

the listed teleport spells cannot. this does not mean it's not POSSIBLE, as there are other spells that work though enviromental seals. . .

BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT TELEPORT AS WRITTEN CANNOT.

now, if you want to make a new version of the spell that can, with slightly more PPE cost. . .

you're in a slight self contradiction there.

If the "armored shell" rule applies as absolutely as you and others contend, why should ANY spell be able to turn around it? Since Teleport Superior is a 15th lvl spell already, anything superior would be a spell of legend, and it would take some legendary figure (assumedly from the 3 galaxies where such matters have been known for many centuries) to go around it.

we never said it was ABSOULTE, there are specific spells that can. but the rule is unless it says otherwise it can't. there is no contradiction

Similarly, if the "armored shell" rule applied to ANY environmentally sealed locations, how come rifts are constantly opening in the lower levels of Center and Chi town?

I think the better question is this:

why don't they teleport into the HIGHER levels, where the real leaders are?

the answer is simple. only the higher levels are enviromentally sealed.

[Svartalf]

I think the better question is this:

why don't they teleport into the HIGHER levels, where the real leaders are?

the answer is simple. only the higher levels are enviromentally sealed.

Actaully, they don't TELEPORT there, or anyplace in chi town for one good reason : they don't know what it looks like, so cannot fix their point of arrival properly.

As to why RIFTS only happen in the lower levels, I guess that it's one of two things :
a) it's tied with telluric influences, even in the absence of a ley line, so must happen relatively close to surface level or underground.

or b) writer's fiat

[Temporalmage]

The rules are clear on this subject. A mage can not cast a spell at a target that is inside of a "sealed" suit of power armor, or a "sealed" robot. Nor can it work vice-versa. There are exceptions to this rule. For example: Mental Shock, a 7th level spell in FOM, can go through power armor but not large robot vehicle. The only reason that magic can not go through a sealed vehicle is due to environment. It states that the mage is "cut off" from the outside world, and presumably can not effect it because of this.

Now the conversation has turned to Chi-town and other high tech mega-cities of Rifts. These constructs are also very high tech, and would presumably be environmental. I see the logic in keeping with the general rules of magic and stating that magic can not go through the environmental protective state of the mega-city. Presumably Chi-town has huge blast doors, with double or even triple sets of doors to ensure that no one gets in without strict permision. Hoards of psi-stalkers and dog boys along with other psycic's would be on stand by at every entrance 25 hours a day. At times when rumers spread of an eminant attack I'd imagine they would triple or even quadruple the ammount of gaurds at each station.
Now the book does mention that monsters occasionally get into Chi-town's subteranian level. Well logically if the place was built on solid bedrock you would think that it would be environmental also. Well that's not necessarily true. Solid rock....well.....isn't. There are microscopic holes in all rock, some bigger than others depending on the actual type of rock we're talking about. Air, and insects can pass through this rock, along with some animals. Water also passes through tiny cracks in rock and gathers in underground streams and rivers. The rock is porous enough to even allow plant roots to pass through. So you see the subteranious levels of Chi-town wouldn't neccesarily be environmental unless they armor plated every outside wall, opening, ect. And spent thousands of billions of credits to do so. And with the disbandment of the Magical Forces in Chi-town, the leaders probably don't even realize how these creatures are always getting into the basement.
Now if the books started telling us that creatures and mages were poping up on the upper levels then obviously the entire place isn't environmental is it?? But since the books only tell us they show up in lower levels, then my explanation is the most logical reasoning behind it.

[Svartalf]

Nice post, temporal, but slightly beside the point ... at least far as I see it.

I'm not arguing that a mage casting teleport superior could take with him sombody on the other side of a vehicular/armor shell. That, is clearly against the rules, and I won't deny that.

my point is that the armored shell rule, while affecting who or what a magician can affect, has no bearing at all as to where he can teleport to or from (or send objects to or from if using the lesser spell) . I have yet to find any evidence that I am wrong.

and I don contend that, if he could get, say a picture of a room anywhere in chi town, a teleporter could go there, no sweat (unless the Vanguard laid magical defences against such intrusion there before being disbanded

[Dr. Doom III]

Yes.
It is no barrier.
You can teleport between dimensions. A door (which is all it really is) is less then nothing.
But you better know where your going or you might stay inside the armor for good.

[Zer0 Kay]

Yes.
It is no barrier.
You can teleport between dimensions. A door (which is all it really is) is less then nothing.
But you better know where your going or you might stay inside the armor for good.

Wow I haven't seen you in a while. Hope your doing well. Have you gone to the reincarnation of my old (approx. three years ago) post about assassinating Prosek? I recall you were part of the original post. It's funny this time it turned out that most of the people beleive it can be done.

[Rimmer]

Have let my players do this before, but always doubled, tripled or quadrupled or even worse the odds that the t-port would be unsuccessful or even fatal.

[Svartalf]

Yet the rules say that vehicles and giant robots form a barrier to psionics directed against those inside. GMG p.86. It also says the same is true of individuals locked behind a closed door. It further notes the few exceptions to the rule.

I also remember reading that, for example, you cannot teleport a fusion block into a vehicle. I don't recall where I read that offhand, though.

Well, the example you quote is more of the "no targeting through a wall" kind that nobody contests anyway.

the thing against porting a fusion block into a vehicle could easily be because you just don't know how the inside is, so don't know the destination for the spell's purpose.

[Ice Dragon]

I vote yes, but the mage has to be familiar with the interior of the vehicle or robot (otherwise your character will end death very soon).

But it is hard to teleport into a moving vehicle .

[Svartalf]

I vote yes, but the mage has to be familiar with the interior of the vehicle or robot (otherwise your character will end death very soon).

But it is hard to teleport into a moving vehicle .

No contest to that at all ...
the character must be personally familiar with the place he's teleporting to
so if it's a vehicle, he must have been there and know the inside layout well.

Alternately, he could try teleporting inside a vehicle of the same model than one he already knows... at the condition that he knows exactly where it is and the layout is not in the least different (i.e. the seats had better be st in the same pattern)

trying to port in an already occupied space (somebody had the bad taste to take you usual seat) can be grounds for the spell failing. if there is room for you to arrive reasonably comfortably (not atop somebody) you might end up somewere else within the cabin you visualised, but that will be a very nasty jolt (effects up to GM)

if the vehicle is moving as you teleport in, and you arent landing straight intoa cushy seat, you get a bad jolt as above, in addition to being violently thrown against whatever or whoever the GM deems convenient.

[Svartalf]

If according to the BOM, a Environmental seal is all it takes to stop a teleport, how do the space stations around phase world and UUW operate? Surely they are sealed but they specifically mentione peopling porting in all the time. Also, in those books they specifically also mention that a force field is the only way to stop ports, and now we have added environmental seals.... Whats next a single iron nail or filament? The rule stopping the use of magic in armour and T-porting fusion blocks into bots was just to keep game balance. The context of actually teleporting yourself into or out of a sealed environment should be taken into consideration as we can, with a high degree of technicallity argue up the whazoo and have nearly everything sealed or unsealed in some way.

Actually, some people have argued that (the enviro seal)... but no supporting references (like exact p number and section titles) have been provided.

Force fields block teleports? would you remember where that's said? (I'm nearly ready to belive that one, but would like to check for myself)

[Svartalf]

This is more of a game balance issue than anything, and we need to just use a little common sense as to when a person can or can not do things.

When talking in regards to armor etc, the rule was created to prevent abuse. Example: teleporting a brick into someones heart.

BUT this is because when talking about armor, there is someone inside.

Vehicles on the other hand (Like Space Stations) have LOTS of room for people to port in and out of.

If its a vehicle that has a large cargo section, and the character knows it is empty. (Especially if its his own vehicle) Then there is no reason they should not be able to port in.

Actaully, when I argued for a body being able to port into a suit of power armor, I was assuming it would be empty. you just can't teleport voluntarily (anybody or anything) into already occupied space, such an event is invariably the result of a spell gone horribly awry.

[Temporalmage]

If according to the BOM, a Environmental seal is all it takes to stop a teleport, how do the space stations around phase world and UUW operate? Surely they are sealed but they specifically mentione peopling porting in all the time. Also, in those books they specifically also mention that a force field is the only way to stop ports, and now we have added environmental seals.... Whats next a single iron nail or filament? The rule stopping the use of magic in armour and T-porting fusion blocks into bots was just to keep game balance. The context of actually teleporting yourself into or out of a sealed environment should be taken into consideration as we can, with a high degree of technicallity argue up the whazoo and have nearly everything sealed or unsealed in some way.

The Phase World book specifically tells us on pages 12 and 13 that the city called the Center, is built on a "super-nexus connecting seven major ley lines and crisscrossd by even more ley lines and dotted with small ley line nexus points." Also it tells us that there is a "Complex system of dimensional gates....that allows them to open rifts to a number of differant dimensions and thousands of worlds." On page 10 of the same book it discusses the space port and tells us of "Spacegates" that allow instant transportation anywhere in the Three Galaxies to Phase World. This is a one way trip, and requires a unique engine in the spacecraft in order to teleport this way.
This would answer your question of how teleportation into/from Center is acheived. Without these devices and massive ammount of magic energy about the place, I'm fairly sure teleportation into this mega-city would be impossible. Otherwise why would they have listed these specific stats and gone to such lengths in describing these features of Phase World?

[Dr. Doom III]

The Phase World book specifically tells us on pages 12 and 13 that the city called the Center, is built on a "super-nexus connecting seven major ley lines and crisscrossd by even more ley lines and dotted with small ley line nexus points." Also it tells us that there is a "Complex system of dimensional gates....that allows them to open rifts to a number of differant dimensions and thousands of worlds." On page 10 of the same book it discusses the space port and tells us of "Spacegates" that allow instant transportation anywhere in the Three Galaxies to Phase World. This is a one way trip, and requires a unique engine in the spacecraft in order to teleport this way.
This would answer your question of how teleportation into/from Center is acheived. Without these devices and massive ammount of magic energy about the place, I'm fairly sure teleportation into this mega-city would be impossible. Otherwise why would they have listed these specific stats and gone to such lengths in describing these features of Phase World?

Because that's how commerce arrives which is an important aspect of Center.
You seem to have forgotten about the poor souls that get accidentally rifted into the lower levels of center.
It's nothing more then pointing out the airport and train station in a major city. But they aren't the only way in.

[Svartalf]

You know Temporalmage ... all this stuff about Center being a mega collection of ley lines and nexus points has precisely *nothing* to do with the possibility of teleporting (as per the spell or dragon ability) in or out or within it.

What this has to do with is that Center is a cross dimensional nexus the equal of earth itself, except in a much tighter space. it also explains the quasi rifting of space ships arriving to the space gates, as well as the fact that rifts are frequently opening in the lower levels.

[Temporalmage]

Because that's how commerce arrives which is an important aspect of Center.
You seem to have forgotten about the poor souls that get accidentally rifted into the lower levels of center.
It's nothing more then pointing out the airport and train station in a major city. But they aren't the only way in.

This wasn't my point at all Doomy. Please read below and I'll explain myself. Sorry if I didn't before.

You know Temporalmage ... all this stuff about Center being a mega collection of ley lines and nexus points has precisely *nothing* to do with the possibility of teleporting (as per the spell or dragon ability) in or out or within it.

What this has to do with is that Center is a cross dimensional nexus the equal of earth itself, except in a much tighter space. it also explains the quasi rifting of space ships arriving to the space gates, as well as the fact that rifts are frequently opening in the lower levels.

I was just giving rational reasoning on the differances between the Center and Chi-town. Many peaple have drawn similarities between the two stating such things as "Why can't you teleport into Chi-town...you can teleport into Center all the time! So what's the differance." Well I was just showing those peaple the main differance between the two. As you yourself stated so elequently...."The Center is a cross dimensional nexus the equal of earth itself, except in a much tighter space." and Chi-town ain't. In fact I don't recall anywhere that states that even one little bitty ley line in remotely close to Chi-town. If you recall a Ley line walker can use his powers to travle along a ley line, even through artificial structures to the other side. I don't see any type of wall stoping a ley line. Do you? So logicaly the center could never be shut off from magical forces such as teleportation or dimensional teleportation. But alas Chi-town does not suffer from the same circumstances. It is not on a ley line, and is indeed invironmentally sealed. (With exception to the basement which I covered in a prior post.)

It's interesting to me that there are those that will go along with the rules that state that magic can not enter a suit of power armor or a robot if its environmentaly sealed. But refuse to believe the same principles apply to an object that is infinatly larger on every scale such as a mega-complex that is Chi-town. Or else the go along with the same stated rule but then wish to make an exception for thier most favorite spell. In this case teleportation. There are exceptions to the rules, just not teleportation in this case.

[Svartalf]

It's interesting to me that there are those that will go along with the rules that state that magic can not enter a suit of power armor or a robot if its environmentaly sealed. But refuse to believe the same principles apply to an object that is infinatly larger on every scale such as a mega-complex that is Chi-town. Or else the go along with the same stated rule but then wish to make an exception for thier most favorite spell. In this case teleportation. There are exceptions to the rules, just not teleportation in this case.

Actually ... I do contend that you can teleport to, from, and within chi town with no problem at all ... in good theory. The fact that any arrival is likely to be noticed by psi stalkers or dog pack, and that you need to know the place you're going to and visualise it provide quite effective restrictions.

As to your "environmental seal" interpretation of the armored shell rule... I am quite disposed to give it credence, as soon as you give me some official text about that. If you base yourself only on the shell rule (as stated on p 21 BoM and I don't remember where in RMB), you have strictly no ground to stand on, as

a) the armored shell rule has no bearing on the departure and arrival of a teleportation, which I have amply argued, demonstrated, explained and amplified. (or would you please give more argument than reciting a rule used out of its proper context and meaning) (and I assure you it isn't my favorite spell, as a player, I've never used it in a Palladium game, and as a GM it is not a ploy or tool I use often)

and b) the rule passage in question never mentions environmental sealing as having to do with anything... actually, certain giant vehicles which are shoo ins for the rule are not even necessarily sealed (take a look at the Triax Cargo Hauler vehicles for instance)

[Temporalmage]

Actually ... I do contend that you can teleport to, from, and within chi town with no problem at all ... in good theory. The fact that any arrival is likely to be noticed by psi stalkers or dog pack, and that you need to know the place you're going to and visualise it provide quite effective restrictions.

Alas I'm afraid we'll continue to disagree...but onward to the point of THIS debate.

As to your "environmental seal" interpretation of the armored shell rule... I am quite disposed to give it credence, as soon as you give me some official text about that. If you base yourself only on the shell rule (as stated on p 21 BoM and I don't remember where in RMB), you have strictly no ground to stand on, as

a) the armored shell rule has no bearing on the departure and arrival of a teleportation, which I have amply argued, demonstrated, explained and amplified. (or would you please give more argument than reciting a rule used out of its proper context and meaning) (and I assure you it isn't my favorite spell, as a player, I've never used it in a Palladium game, and as a GM it is not a ploy or tool I use often)

and b) the rule passage in question never mentions environmental sealing as having to do with anything... actually, certain giant vehicles which are shoo ins for the rule are not even necessarily sealed (take a look at the Triax Cargo Hauler vehicles for instance)

Gimme a sec....
Unfortunatly I don't seem to have the BOM with me. Apparently I loaned it to a player for the week. I did go through the Old FAQ section, I seemed to remember that exact question being presented in there. But alas I can't find it. (Probably not looking the right place.) I distinctly remember seeing somplace, that it specifically stated that one could not teleport a fuision block into a sealed vehicle. And the fusion block was part of the example too, so it's pretty relevant. I just don't remeber where I saw it. I'll keep looking and if I find it I'll let ya know.
By the way, where does it say that you can't teleport through a force field? That's a new on one me.

[Dr. Doom III]

b. I agree.. the BoM doesn't state environmentally sealed on page 21... just a robot, vehicle or power armor. ((Followed of course by the out of context???? ANY magic.))

Any magic affecting those inside.
No putting them to sleep, no blasting them with a fireball, no blinding them...
Nothing about teleporting beside them and shooting them.

[Svartalf]

Ok techno, let's go at it again.

I read the words as well as you do, but you give them an extent that is purely excessive.

The rule is actually and amplification/special case of the general rules that specify no targeting a magic beyond walls or without line of sight.. As such, it means that no such barrier as specified may stand between the mage and the target the spell is meant to affect.

As applied to Teleport, it means that if my friend is held withing a giant vehicle, my mage character cannot stand next to this vehicle, (presumably within 20 ft of his friend) and cast teleport with the intent of bringing the friend away too. Dooms previous message shows the application of the rule excellently.

However, it has no bearing whatever on the relationship between the departure location and the point of arrival.

Mystic portal is a spell specifically aimed are going through walls... Are the outer walls of a big vehicle an exception to this? Teleport is generally agreed as being able to transport one through closed doors, thick walls, even mountains... why would the confines of a bot or vehicle be particularly proof against such power?

Some people have invoked the "environmental seal" of such things. Beside the fact that giant vehicles are definitely mentioned in the rule, but not necessarisy sealed, I'm still waiting for one official sentence linking an environmentally sealed place to a restriction to the possibility of teleporting to or from there, or endorsing the application of the Armored shell rule to where you can teleport to or from at all.

Actually, I am quite surprised at having to argue so much for a point which, until I discovered some 10 days ago that some people viewed things differently, had seemed to me perfectly self evident. Perhaps the wording and context of the original rule in RMB (if I could just find it again) might be more clear..