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Armor penetration?
In Rifts?
I believe the rule is deplete the MDC and you have penetrated the armor.

As to the Gargoyle. Sure.

..There are none for Rifts.

..In my games, MDC is only 5x SDC, not 100, and has an AR of 18 vs. SDC. But I haven't gone so far as to deal with penetration attacks... Generally in fantasy you can use the Penetration Values of weapons listed in the Compendium of ... of... hey, where the heck is my Compendium of Ancient Weapons and Castles?!?!


-Mike

The little green goblin has it.

(see the little goblin isn't he sweet, see his little tosie wosie's, see his little feet)

How's this for an obscure Tv reference

Rimmer wrote:(see the little goblin isn't he sweet, see his little tosie wosie's, see his little feet)

How's this for an obscure Tv reference Big Grin

Actually it's:

See the little goblin;
see his little feet,
and his little nosey-wose
isn't the goblin sweet?
Hey!

I have twisted the AR rules from SDC games to an MDC world for my games, if your interested it's in the "Hoouse Rules" thread. I think they work really well.

Zanrain wrote:Can anyone tell me where I can find the rules for armor Penetration? Does it just mean more damage to the armor? or is it a means of bypassing the armor and hurting the target.
Paradox: can a vibroblade hamstring a gargoyle before all the M.D.C. is gone?

Rifts has no such general rules. The closest thing you're going to find along these lines is the Left Arm Tentacle for the Xiticix Killer in the Lone Star Book who does 1D4 on an eternal wack with it, but does better than eight times that (6D6) if he can get it inside a person. Maybe something can be worked up from that for a near-canon House Rule.

Rimmer humbly bows before a master.

All hail ZoB.

Will have to go listen to it again when i get home.

i was actually just discussing this with my friend today, the topic that is of penetrating armor... i think there should be seperate rules for melee weapons in close quarters, so that their not entirely useless... I know i know their not ENTIRELY useless, but say you have a vibroblade up against someone in coalition armor... basically you have to slash and scrape your way through dozens of points of MDC... why couldn't you just grab the person and punch through his armor? as a matter of fact, in Psyscape during the flavor text for the Psi-Slayer, he does just this, when he possesses the one juicer and kills the other one by punching through his armor... at the least they should have vulnerable points that are more easily reached... say for example that the neck cover on armor which is typically guarded by the helmet from long range, has something like 1 or 2 MDC... this makes a vibro-knife, in the hands of a skilled attacker, worthy of actually using of course you'd have a negative since its a smaller target and called shot and all that, but at least you'd get a chance...any comments?...later

Hans wrote:Actually, I have toyed with the idea of having a simple rule that all the MDC damage done to the body armor is reduced by that armor into SDC damage that continues on into the person wearing it. This way doctors, healing and even your IRMSS kits would get some use. I find it odd that there is no casutalites in Rifts warfare other than alive with beat up armor, or really, really dead.

Unfortunately wearing heavy armor would be useless then because if you only have 25 SDC and 20 Hit Points, wearing 100 MDC armor wouldn't be any better than a 45 MDC armor. So, the idea got axed.

You could simply put a reduction modifier in there too and it would work fine. For instance, SDC of an attack = MDC/5, or somesuch. Ie if you take 20 MD to the armor, the wearer takes 20/5=4 SDC. If you stick with "easy" numbers (2, 5, 10, perhaps 20), it only adds a trivial amount of extra math. We toyed with this a bit in one of our campaigns and we thought it worked pretty well (I think we used 1/5 for body armor, 1/10 for PA, but not sure on those numbers), but it was a short-lived game so didn't get much testing.

PigLick

Beatleguise wrote:There are rules for Penetrating armor. And Actually a couple different ones, you just have to look for them.

AR normally, as said for SDC Armor is a rating which you have to beat when you roll to hit. IE AR 18, you have to roll an 18+.

There are three different places I have seen variants of this, personally I like the Triax MDC Armor, as it not only is MDC armor with an AR, most of the flight suits can be warn under body Armor and power armor.

Also under the section "Dealing Damage with SDC weapons to MDC Armor. IS a rule for by passing armor, by aiming for the weak points.

It is a called shot, and 13+ to hit. And I believe it recieves no other mods, but could be wrong on that.

..Dude, if you're going to claim something is in print, reference a page number. The AR for Triax armor is for the Plain Clothes armor which is only partial armor at best, so it doesn't apply to any other type of armor.

..Again, page numbers and book names...

-Mike >8]

You could always just modify the crash damage for power armor and the like for weapon damage.

MikePGS wrote:... i think there should be seperate rules for melee weapons in close quarters, so that their not entirely useless... I know i know their not ENTIRELY useless, but say you have a vibroblade up against someone in coalition armor... basically you have to slash and scrape your way through dozens of points of MDC... why couldn't you just grab the person and punch through his armor? as a matter of fact, in Psyscape during the flavor text for the Psi-Slayer, he does just this, when he possesses the one juicer and kills the other one by punching through his armor... at the least they should have vulnerable points that are more easily reached... say for example that the neck cover on armor which is typically guarded by the helmet from long range, has something like 1 or 2 MDC... this makes a vibro-knife, in the hands of a skilled attacker, worthy of actually using of course you'd have a negative since its a smaller target and called shot and all that, but at least you'd get a chance...any comments?...later

It's a bit of a streatch, but you could do something like this. Make it so that the smaller the weak spot is you're trying to hit is, the greater the payoff. Say for example you want your character to attempt to jam his vibro knife in the armpit of his advasary. The underarms have always been notorious for being weak on portective vests and such IRL for some time now, so the same should be similar with the Mega Damage EBA of Rifts. So the GM says that the small and difficult target will be a -6 to hit with a Called Shot. Because the attack is harder to make, the damage should be porportionately more impressive. In this case since the penalty to the Called Shot is a -6, then the damage delt to the arm of othe armor is X6! Tirax Explorer EBA has 40 MDC in the arms and such attack with a 1D6 MD melee weapon, doing six times its normal damage (1D6x6 or 6D6MD) will average 21 MD per successful strike, meaning it will gain penetration on the second successful Called Shot to the same vulnerable spot, with 2MD above the armor's protection rating for its arms. This can translate into the blade going through the pit and down-angling into the target's chest cavity. Even 2 MD is usually more than enough to kill most SDC beings, so that would do the job quite well.

How's that work for you?

Dr. Doom III wrote:You could always just modify the crash damage for power armor and the like for weapon damage.

That's more of a "bleed through" kind of thing than actual penetration. And though it's not a bad idea, to properly implement it would require you to figure out just how much force a person experiences (in joules, foot-pounds, whatever) in such a collision to determine just how much force it takes to inflict 1D4 SDC on a person in armor. Then you'd have to determine how much energy is delivered at the tip of a knife and somehow translate that into how much more a MD Vibro Knife can deliver. Actually, a vibro weapon wouldn't actually deliver any more force than a normal SDC one. It's the vibro field that makes the attack go into the mega damage range, so it would be some kind for force multiplyer there. So I guess you could take the force of a normal knife, multiply that by 100 (the MD/SDC threshhold), and divide that by the amount of force needed to do 1D4 SDC through EBA giving you the number of D4's the special attack did.

Complicated, but doable.

Dead Boy wrote:That's more of a "bleed through" kind of thing than actual penetration. And though it's not a bad idea, to properly implement it would require you to figure out just how much force a person experiences (in joules, foot-pounds, whatever) in such a collision to determine just how much force it takes to inflict 1D4 SDC on a person in armor. Then you'd have to determine how much energy is delivered at the tip of a knife and somehow translate that into how much more a MD Vibro Knife can deliver. Actually, a vibro weapon wouldn't actually deliver any more force than a normal SDC one. It's the vibro field that makes the attack go into the mega damage range, so it would be some kind for force multiplyer there. So I guess you could take the force of a normal knife, multiply that by 100 (the MD/SDC threshhold), and divide that by the amount of force needed to do 1D4 SDC through EBA giving you the number of D4's the special attack did.

Complicated, but doable.

Or you could just wing it.
1 SDC/HP for every 10 MD or something.

Getting back to the initial question, yes, you can "dummy-up" something real quick. After all, the Garg's MDC is the value of the whole body. If all you're attacking is one tiny ligament at the back of it's heel, divide the MDC by 20 (or some similar figure) to see if you can saw through it's achilles tendon

What if it's an AP round? What bonuses does that get from a standard round?

Zer0 Kay wrote:What if it's an AP round? What bonuses does that get from a standard round?

An AP round is supposed to "reduce" AR by 2 (so with an AR of 14, you only need to roll a 12).

In RIFTS (and other MDC settings) I allow AP effects to damage the interior of a vehicle/robot/PA/body armour if they can exceed half the AV of the unit. (So an AP missile hitting a DB with 80 MDC armour will kill the DB if it can do over 40 MDC.)

..I collected the Repair rates and created Salvage Rates from them and the main book in the Rifts Game Master Screens. Maybe they'll see print agian sometime in the future....

..Don't let your characters underestimate salvage. A characte with Jury-Rig, General Repair or Armorer can use parts of another person's body armor to repair their own. To contemporary table-top gamers the notion of taking the armor off your dead enemy or even dead companions may seem macabre, but it's a realistic part of the nature of combat.

-Mike >8]