Chaos Earth to Rifts Earth: Where is the transition?

[SycophantNagaraja]

I just picked up the CE book and was curious if they have filled in the gap? We now understand that some people survived. And others moved inland towards the midwest to huddle and martial their strength.

But there is a LONG span of time between those that survived and the Coalition/modern day Rifts.

Anyone got a clue? Or has a book come out yet?

[Dr. Doom III]

300 years or so.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

300 years or so.

Righty-o. I think its 288 or something, so 300 works as a nice rounded numba.

[SycophantNagaraja]

heh, I was asking storyline wise.

Like is NEMA the precursor to the Coalition? Did they get wiped out?
What happened during that span of time that brings us to the current Rifts setting? I know what is sparsley discussed in the main book.

And when did they start using the PA callendar? Was it after December 22nd 2098? Or was there some other period in time that they just decided to switch?

[Dustin Fireblade]

heh, I was asking storyline wise.

Like is NEMA the precursor to the Coalition? Did they get wiped out?
What happened during that span of time that brings us to the current Rifts setting? I know what is sparsley discussed in the main book.

And when did they start using the PA callendar? Was it after December 22nd 2098? Or was there some other period in time that they just decided to switch?

NEMA gets wiped out at some point obviously, my guess is they burn out as a organization fighting the Chaos demons. I beleive the timeline in SoT Book 1 has something to what Chi-Town is called before the formation of the CS but I no longer have that book.

[Dr. Doom III]

heh, I was asking storyline wise.

Like is NEMA the precursor to the Coalition? Did they get wiped out?
What happened during that span of time that brings us to the current Rifts setting? I know what is sparsley discussed in the main book.

And when did they start using the PA callendar? Was it after December 22nd 2098? Or was there some other period in time that they just decided to switch?

No one really knows what happened.
That's why they call them the Dark Ages.

The PA calender wasn't started till around 200 years later when the dark ages were ending.

[SycophantNagaraja]

not to sound stupid, but whats the full name of the SoT book?

[Dustin Fireblade]

not to sound stupid, but whats the full name of the SoT book?

Sedition.

[Jason Richards]

No one really knows what happened.
That's why they call them the Dark Ages.

No one really knows what happened........ yet.

[Dr. Doom III]

No one really knows what happened........ yet.

I have a sneaking suspicion it has something to do with their home base being under a nexus point.

[Dustin Fireblade]

In the CE MB, doesn't it say that the majority of the NEMA forces that the commander can gather make their way to the Chicago area? Isn't Chi-Town founded on or near the remains of old Chicago?

While the CS may not be a direct product of NEMA, they obviously acted as a civilizing/peace keeping force that allowed something of civilization to remain intact in the area.

It does for your first part, and you're right on the second as well. We just have not seen the piece that fills the gap between them yet.

[SycophantNagaraja]

In the CE MB, doesn't it say that the majority of the NEMA forces that the commander can gather make their way to the Chicago area? Isn't Chi-Town founded on or near the remains of old Chicago?

While the CS may not be a direct product of NEMA, they obviously acted as a civilizing/peace keeping force that allowed something of civilization to remain intact in the area.

It does for your first part, and you're right on the second as well. We just have not seen the piece that fills the gap between them yet.

Which was what I had been asking about But some logical suggestions have been bandied about so I should have something to work with.

The only thing I disagree with is the losing of resources and subsiquent splintering of NEMA. I know it's actually a pretty sound arguement, but I just don't see it happening unless specifically written that way.

Here's why: Humanity now has it's back to the wall. And the one thing that pretty much every movie and book in this type of genre (not to mention real history) has displayed is human perseverance. When we feel we have something to believe in we cling to it and follow it until it's dying light.

And they did make quite a bit of references to the strong leadership and their near unwaivering support.

I wouldn't be suprised to see that, due to longevity being that it was, one of the Prosek ancestors had a hand in "erasing" NEMA from history. Doing a creative re-write slowly over generations of people til they get to the point of the Federation of Magic's assault in the early PA era.

It just seems right. The Proseks cite just enough of American history to inspire their people on and reword other events in their speeches to keep people from looking into the REAL America, NAA, NEMA, etc. Which is why the free thinking Erin Tarn is soo dangerous.

And maybe why the Proseks show such a dislike for the Glitter Boys? After all, the Chromium Guards (aka GBs) were used as much as a weapon as a symbol. A symbol that many Free Quebecois refused to remove.

An interesting bit of rambling......

[Dr. Doom III]

In the CE MB, doesn't it say that the majority of the NEMA forces that the commander can gather make their way to the Chicago area? Isn't Chi-Town founded on or near the remains of old Chicago?

While the CS may not be a direct product of NEMA, they obviously acted as a civilizing/peace keeping force that allowed something of civilization to remain intact in the area.

Chi-Town is about 100 miles (I think) from Chicago.
The ruins of Old Chicago are full of Ley Lines and Nexuses. No one lives there for long. The CS military and whatever crawls out of the Rifts sees to that.

NEMA is in Old Chicago.
That is not a good thing but they don't know it.

[AdmTolval]

How's this for a twist. The NEMA military becomes the foundation for the CS while the NEMA para-psychics becomes the foundation for Tolkeen. Thoughts anyone?

[Jason Richards]

How's this for a twist. The NEMA military becomes the foundation for the CS while the NEMA para-psychics becomes the foundation for Tolkeen. Thoughts anyone?

Interesting. I've got other plans, though... muahahaha

[Jason Richards]

the real thing is , Chaos Earth was just considered the Rifts Earth historic past, but we all know it's just a parralel earth, there is no reason to believe that Chaos Earth was the real Earth's Past, because quite frankly, people would of remembered all those children of Armageddon demons running about they would of not just dissappeared for 300 years only to not reappear in africa during the Armageddon demon revival.
...

Chaos Earth is Rifts Earth's past. Nothing speculative about it.

[Nash]

Look in World book 26 "Dinosaur Swamp" There is a referral to NEMA in that book. That, along with other hints dropped by Kevin S. and other writers convinces me that CE is RE's past.

Please remember many (if not all) of the locations identified as Coalition States are mentioned in CE as being places where humans are still “holding out.” Also I am reasonably sure the Coalition and the Federation of Magic were, at one time, one government or at lest friendly to one another. The Mages got uppity and tried to take over or something. The Coalition Kicked their butts. (Chicago being the location of the fight for supremacy) This is why they (the Coalition) hate magic users.

The short of it is I am convinced NEMA became the Coalition (Over 2-3 hundred years.) There was no fall to total anarchy. Anyone who thinks this is unlikely, look at history pre-WW2 there was a movement to support Germany. Also there was a presidential election in the 20s or 30s that, if it had gone another way, our country would be significantly different than the way it is today.

I like this because CE NEMA’s characters essentially will succeed and save humanity, at least in North America. Who wants to play a game that you know is pointless?


Gah! Enough of Nash’s preachin.

[Dr. Doom III]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Atlantis came back a few weeks ago in the Chaos Earth setting. I doubt the Splugorth are even aware of Earth yet and they may not be for decades.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

There's only been three books published so far, and I believe KS stated the focus was going to be, initally, on NA/United States/NEMA forces in Chicago.
Besides hasn't KS already stated that CE is Rifts Earth past several times in print?

[Jason Richards]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

[Dr. Doom III]

You need to realize, No amount of Backtreading By KS will Convince us Chaos Earth is anything but a Stupid piece of CRAP!: )
It's like The Pope in Rome telling what the Orthodox Parliament what to do. It ain't going to happen Folks .



He'd have to Massively Rewrite The Rifts background to Make it "Jive" with Chaos Earth. Heck, he'd have to explain away WHY Things changed, Then I'll Give his new nonsense Some Credit.

Why things changed?
200 years of dark ages. It was always 200 years of dark ages.

[Dustin Fireblade]

He'd have to Massively Rewrite The Rifts background to Make it "Jive" with Chaos Earth. Heck, he'd have to explain away WHY Things changed, Then I'll Give his new nonsense Some Credit.

Nothing's changed, nothing needs to change.

[smkeyes]

NEMA will slowly cease to exist as an entity through attrition. I could see it lasting about 50 years before the last remnants are gone. Since NEMA is not supposed to take over from civilian authority. There will come a time when NEMA's manpower shortage will require that the militia be armed with MDC armor and weapons. Now the Civilian authorities would probably wish the new armor could be diferetiated from that of the NEMA forces. Wich would lead to the development of the deadboy armor of the future coilotion states.

Well thats my hypotical take.

SMKeyes

[Devari]

Another thing to keep in mind regarding the "how was NEMA eventually replaced by the CS" question is that, fundamentally, the two are different organizations. NEMA is a paramilitary combat/peacekeeping force, while the CS serves as an entire government and has a much broader function. Although a major activity of both NEMA and the CS is fighting creatures from the Rifts, this is pretty much where the similarities end. The CS tries to coordinate a variety of activities, including everything from industry and trade to basic infastructure, in addition to their military role. One obvious possiblity that was mentioned in previous posts is that NEMA was simply "absorbed" into the CS when it was established and eventually lost its original name and identity. This makes sense considering that NEMA's military role is only part of what humanity would need to rebuild civilization, and organizations carrying out industrial and agricultural activities would be equally important for survival. The obvious similarities between NEMA and CS military equipment implies that the two obviously had a common history at some point, so there must have been some connection between them. Preumably, NEMA wouldn't have been completely wiped out, otherwise I don't see how the CS would have ever been established, or how they could have produced the SAMAS and APC designs for the CS military.

[saku ichikawasan]

Guys i just now reread this topic and gained a whole new idea of where to take my campaign, and it should be sick an twisted enough to make my players hate me...

after several years playing rifts i, and my players have grown to hate the CS and the Proseks with a fiery little passion. im now wondering what they would do if in the chaos earth campaign imcurrently planning they end up founding that which they hate the most.

this should turn out interesting. Thanks guys

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Guys i just now reread this topic and gained a whole new idea of where to take my campaign, and it should be sick an twisted enough to make my players hate me...

after several years playing rifts i, and my players have grown to hate the CS and the Proseks with a fiery little passion. im now wondering what they would do if in the chaos earth campaign imcurrently planning they end up founding that which they hate the most.

this should turn out interesting. Thanks guys

lol thats is twisted, hehe

[Shawn Merrow]

sorry to say Chaos Earth is not the real Rifts world. I have Cannon proof.

rifter #7 page 55 witten by By Kevin Siembieda

Um, no pun intended,
for you see, Chaos Earth™ is an alternate reality. A parallel dimension.
A splinter from the reality that is Rifts®

That is the orginal version of Chaos Earth and not the version that was made. It says in Rifter 17 that he scrapped that idea and made Chaos Earth the past of Rifts.

[Sentinel]

It's a Game Designers' perrogative.

[Dr. Doom III]

Spot on!

Yet still wrong.

That was the old concept. It was changed.

[Jason Richards]

Spot on!

Yet still wrong.

That was the old concept. It was changed.

Doom is correct, as are others prior that pointed this out.

[Toc Rat]

Far be it for Palladium to stick with a concept.

I believe someone phrased it best when they said "Contiwhaty?"

[Jason Richards]

Far be it for Palladium to stick with a concept.

I believe someone phrased it best when they said "Contiwhaty?"

Chaos Earth is the history of Rifts. It has never been canon otherwise.

I mean, Rifts was originally "Boomers", right? How dare they not stick with the concept...

[Jeffrey W.]

It sounds to me as if much of the dissatisfaction with Chaos Earth is by the players who think of it as a historical period of Rifts.

Try looking at it as new material, and going forward from there. Who knows, maybe something originally discussed in a Chaos Earth book will someday set a precedent for future Rifts books or articles.

When that happens, I think gamers and fans will be more accepting of seeing Rifts and Chaos Earth as one and the same, (even if centuries apart).

Jeffrey W.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Besides, they aren't the first, let alone only, game company to have a game set in the past of another of their settings...

Let's see-

2300AD / Twilight 2000(GDW): 2300 was a 300 years sequel to T2000 - and they even used a variant of Diplomacy and a mix of tactical games to PLAY OUT the history between the two periods.

Vampire: The Masquerade / Vampire: The Dark Ages (WW): In this case a decent prequel, though IMO they'd have been better off keeping Ars Magica and using it as the dark ages setting.

Call of Cthulhu/Cthulhu by Gaslight/Cthulhu Now (and Delta Green)/Cthulhu Rising (Chaosium, and other publishers, in the case of Delta Green). Classic 30s CoC, Victorian Cthulhu, modern Cthulhu, modern Cthulhu with a Illuminated setting, and the latest, 23rd Century Cthulhu.

Traveller series (GDW; classic, megatraveller, New Era, spanning 100 years) / Traveller 4th Edition (Imperium Games; set 1100 years before classic traveller, at the dawn of the 3rd Imperium). GDW also had boardgames and tactical games set even earlier in that timeline.

And, the most relating to Rifts, in a way, as they have similarities respectively to Rifts & PFRPG:

Shadowrun and Earthdawn (FASA, et al) (Shadowrun being the 6th age of Earth, Earthdawn the 4th, with the modern world the 5th)

And your point being?

[Zer0 Kay]

the real thing is , Chaos Earth was just considered the Rifts Earth historic past, but we all know it's just a parralel earth, there is no reason to believe that Chaos Earth was the real Earth's Past, because quite frankly, people would of remembered all those children of Armageddon demons running about they would of not just dissappeared for 300 years only to not reappear in africa during the Armageddon demon revival.
...

Chaos Earth is Rifts Earth's past. Nothing speculative about it.

Yeah but it was originally supposed to be an alternate dimension where the Old American Empire survived.

[Zer0 Kay]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

Except for the ONE entry in Rifter before it came out... what ever happened to that idea anyway.

[Zer0 Kay]

I've noticed a lot of people are thinking geocentric. Even in the extreme vastness that dwarfs our universe, the Earth is a Megaversal Hub of sorts. That night at midnight when billions perished the Earth was thrust into the thick of the Megaverse willing or not.

"Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth..."

Of course Earth is wacked out...look at what happened! It's the Cataclysm. Forces went to town on our planet that haven't been seen since way back in the day. We're talkin' Pre-Cambrian and then some. Imagine you are the Earth and in the matter of 5 minutes you consume a case of beer, potato salad and 200 pixie sticks. Board our Cataclysm simulator, any inversion roller coaster and then see how geophysically different you'll look.

The Bermuda Triangle is mentioned to be alive with activity mist & electricity what have you.

And I think that I recall reading somewhere that the disturbance / release of PPE alerts several races and beings to the goings on. Bet the Splugorth catch wind of that one. Doesn't mean day o doom they show up but safe to assume they have an ear to the proverbial wall.

In regards to NEMA and the CS. So far I've only seen location and tech similarities. The purpose of each organization seems night and day. While it's possible that the former became the latter thru change and power struggle, there are an unlimited number of other ways to go.

- An unknown scrounger with a dream, named Prozek inadvertently stumbles upon a dormant base untouched for decades.

- Deceitful beings manipulate the right people to help spur the rebuilding of of a land that they can benefit from.

"Please remember many (if not all) of the locations identified as Coalition States are mentioned in CE as being places where humans are still “holding out.” Also I am reasonably sure the Coalition and the Federation of Magic were, at one time, one government or at lest friendly to one another. The Mages got uppity and tried to take over or something. The Coalition Kicked their butts. (Chicago being the location of the fight for supremacy) This is why they (the Coalition) hate magic users."

I'd think that the Coalition upon it's inception had their plan well in place. Keep the masses in line, keep em dumb and keep them the hell away from magic. I doubt that any magic faction would be embraced in the least. Magic can reduce your ( CS ) robot all but ineffective in seconds. And that's just one person in robes. Not to mention all the filthy wretches surrounding Chi-Town. What if they had access to magic and began practicing??

blah blah blah what is with all this Splugorth. Where does it say that it was the Splugorth that brought Atlantis back? The CS's inception? They had mages, that is what the Vanguard is the reminants of.

[Zer0 Kay]

NEMA will slowly cease to exist as an entity through attrition. I could see it lasting about 50 years before the last remnants are gone. Since NEMA is not supposed to take over from civilian authority. There will come a time when NEMA's manpower shortage will require that the militia be armed with MDC armor and weapons. Now the Civilian authorities would probably wish the new armor could be diferetiated from that of the NEMA forces. Wich would lead to the development of the deadboy armor of the future coilotion states.

Well thats my hypotical take.

SMKeyes

"We need different armor. Hey lets make ours look skeletal!" That's about as stupid as wearing antlers out hunting.

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS did use magic at one point. Don't forget the vangaurd was part of the CS. Than the war witht the federation happened and the CS became completly anti magic that is also when the Proseks took control. Also in one of the Chaos books dose it not say that they viewed magic and pys powers with suspistion but they realized they needed al the help they could get.

I do not see Nema getting 100% wipped out but when an eclisps happens or some other event, they will more than likely lose at least 80%. The rest of NEMA scaters and almost lose what tech they might have had. But then one group finds a base and begins to regroup humans, thus begins the CS. I agree that the CS would rewrite history to demonize magic users, but I doupt that they could have survived long in there world with out some form of magic. I mean lets not forget there were no infrostructore left.

See look what happens when I don't read all the way threw a thread before I start posting. Hmm why change now?

[Jason Richards]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

Except for the ONE entry in Rifter before it came out... what ever happened to that idea anyway.

The "prequel" line is better, and more directly ties in to Palladium's flagship game line.

[Zer0 Kay]

Guys i just now reread this topic and gained a whole new idea of where to take my campaign, and it should be sick an twisted enough to make my players hate me...

after several years playing rifts i, and my players have grown to hate the CS and the Proseks with a fiery little passion. im now wondering what they would do if in the chaos earth campaign imcurrently planning they end up founding that which they hate the most.

this should turn out interesting. Thanks guys

lol thats is twisted, hehe

That's right give him props. Come on everyone here is talking about it. Geez.

Twisted would be if you play a Rifts game and you hate Prosek because you saw him drop his hand to command the firing squad to kill your family while you watched. He did this because they were mages and (human like d-bees, though somewhat supernatural, probably Atlanteans), you were just lucky because you weren't home when they arrested your family. Later in your carrer you end up going into a Rift (since they are rips in the fabric of TIME and space). Your a pretty good guy so you end up helping out the NEMA guys. You get a thing for one of the local girls who's last name is Prosk (get where I'm going yet?) and eventually get it on. She has the child and by the end of the game you figure out that though NEMA may or may not become the CS YOU are the ancestor of Prosek and he is not only part d-bee but supernatural to boot.

Now that is twisted. Your the Great^15 Grandfather of Karl Prosek. So what is it like to hate your descendant because he killed his ansestors parents... guess it's a good thing he didn't kill you too, for him that is.

[Zer0 Kay]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

Except for the ONE entry in Rifter before it came out... what ever happened to that idea anyway.

The "prequel" line is better, and more directly ties in to Palladium's flagship game line.

How does an parallel dimension book not tie directly into Palladium's flagship game line? That is like saying that Phase world doesn't tie into Rifts. Heck I view all Palladium books as dimension books for Rifts that is why I always snicker when someone claims to be a completionist and only have a few more Rifts books to go, but don't have any other Palladium books.

[Jason Richards]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

Except for the ONE entry in Rifter before it came out... what ever happened to that idea anyway.

The "prequel" line is better, and more directly ties in to Palladium's flagship game line.

How does an parallel dimension book not tie directly into Palladium's flagship game line? That is like saying that Phase world doesn't tie into Rifts. Heck I view all Palladium books as dimension books for Rifts that is why I always snicker when someone claims to be a completionist and only have a few more Rifts books to go, but don't have any other Palladium books.

The whole "alternate dimension" thing doesn't have near the tie that the actual "history" of Rifts does. Chaos Earth is the history of the making of the world that we have all gamed in for 15 years now.

[Zer0 Kay]

Unless A Rifts 2nd edition comes out, I will not accept Chaos Earth as the past , It's an alternative earth, because it's just too wacked out and geophysicly diffirent... and Still - No Evidence of Atlantis or the splugorth in Chaos earth...

Accept or don't accept whatever you want, but Chaos Earth is, according to canon, the history of Rifts.

Except for the ONE entry in Rifter before it came out... what ever happened to that idea anyway.

The "prequel" line is better, and more directly ties in to Palladium's flagship game line.

How does an parallel dimension book not tie directly into Palladium's flagship game line? That is like saying that Phase world doesn't tie into Rifts. Heck I view all Palladium books as dimension books for Rifts that is why I always snicker when someone claims to be a completionist and only have a few more Rifts books to go, but don't have any other Palladium books.

The whole "alternate dimension" thing doesn't have near the tie that the actual "history" of Rifts does. Chaos Earth is the history of the making of the world that we have all gamed in for 15 years now.

So your saying you don't think as many people would buy a new Rifts Dimension book? Instead of a Hey look at the new Phaseworld book.... Yay. They need new dimension books, they haven't touched any really new concepts since they did Phaseworld, just expanded on it. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually make it so that NEMA finds a way to survive and actually make the series become that parallel Earth that was mentioned in the Rifter so long ago.

[Zer0 Kay]

Nah, that wont Happen, everyone knows NEMA is actually the for father of the Coalition.

I love people that over-generalize. Sure it could happen where NEMA never degrades into the CS. It would be a more civilized North America though. After all the largest nation being illiterate kinda holds back their progress.

Besides how can that be if your ancestors were attacked by supernatural and they were as "evil" as you are then why would you be hiding that from the nation they started? Don't think NEMA would be so dark and that may be why they decided not to go with the parallel dimension.

[Jason Richards]

Okay, to break it down so nobody gets confused, reasons for Chaos Earth being on the same timeline as Rifts rather than an alternate timeline:

1. The story of Man's decline into the familiar pre-Rifts Dark Age is a much more compelling story than one that is open-ended.

2. The direct tie-in to the timeline of Palladium's flagship game is better for fans of Rifts, who carry the company far more than fans of any other game.

3. Dimension books are more or less non-Rifts gaming settings that use the Rifts RPG rule book, not intrinsically related to Rifts.

4. Chaos Earth on the Rifts timeline gives Rifts players a glimpse into the hallowed "Golden Age" and the subsequent fall that has been discussed for 15 years in Rifts sourcebooks. An alternate timeline does not achieve that.

5. Putting Chaos Earth on the Rifts timeline allows for better cross-over into the Rifts we know and love in terms of pre-Rifts technology. If from an alternate timeline, such material becomes just another alien/D-Bee device (which there is plenty of).

6. Chaos Earth, as written, is an excellent insight and source for the history of the Pre-Rifts world and how it developed into Rifts Earth, with endless opportunities for GM's to exploit for their players. An alternate timeline has no such factor of relatability.

7. As written, Chaos Earth is truly an apocalyptic game (preluding Rifts as a post-apocalyptic game). An alternate timeline would not necessarily be so, since is is open-ended (and as originally billed, not apocalyptic).

8. As written, Chaos Earth is simultaneously it's own game, as well as a backstory for Rifts.

9. If used as a "Dimension Book," Chaos Earth could, by definition, not have been its own game.

10. The final, and most important point (though just a guess on my part) is that it is linked to the Rifts timeline because Palladium probably felt that it would sell better than as a Dimension Book. I mean, look around at the boards. Dimension books aren't as big a deal to gamers as Rifts material, or new, complete games.

[Jason Richards]

NEMA WILL become that which we hate and there is nothing that you can do to prevent it, it is out of your hands.

Oh really? Now who is over-generalizing?

[Zer0 Kay]

Okay, to break it down so nobody gets confused, reasons for Chaos Earth being on the same timeline as Rifts rather than an alternate timeline:

1. The story of Man's decline into the familiar pre-Rifts Dark Age is a much more compelling story than one that is open-ended.

I'd rather play open ended than know I'm just going to give birth to a screwed up world, no matter what my actions are.

2. The direct tie-in to the timeline of Palladium's flagship game is better for fans of Rifts, who carry the company far more than fans of any other game.

Uh yeah so that is why all Rifts players own Beyond the Supernatural.

3. Dimension books are more or less non-Rifts gaming settings that use the Rifts RPG rule book, not intrinsically related to Rifts.

All dimension books are very Rifts even if they are not set on Rifts Earth. After all what would Rifts be without interdimensional/space/time worm holes? Uh... just Earth.

4. Chaos Earth on the Rifts timeline gives Rifts players a glimpse into the hallowed "Golden Age" and the subsequent fall that has been discussed for 15 years in Rifts sourcebooks. An alternate timeline does not achieve that.

The Golden Age of technology was that Golden. Rifts has almost all people in MDC armor with MDC weapons. Though understandable only NEMA and a few military groups has MDC. There isn't that many MDC units.

5. Putting Chaos Earth on the Rifts timeline allows for better cross-over into the Rifts we know and love in terms of pre-Rifts technology. If from an alternate timeline, such material becomes just another alien/D-Bee device (which there is plenty of).

Even if it is an alternate timeline it would have the NEMA stamp and the Rifts people that know about NEMA would still assume that it was from their past. As I said Chaos Earth right now could branch going into one where NEMA and the Old American Empire survives, and one that goes into Rifts where they don't. Besides it doesn't matter if it is D-bee or NEMA most people wouldn't know the difference and those that do would want to treat them the same anyway.

6. Chaos Earth, as written, is an excellent insight and source for the history of the Pre-Rifts world and how it developed into Rifts Earth, with endless opportunities for GM's to exploit for their players. An alternate timeline has no such factor of relatability.

7. As written, Chaos Earth is truly an apocalyptic game (preluding Rifts as a post-apocalyptic game). An alternate timeline would not necessarily be so, since is is open-ended (and as originally billed, not apocalyptic).

Didn't say it was't good just their limited availability of tech makes it seem like your playing a game of System Crash.

8. As written, Chaos Earth is simultaneously it's own game, as well as a backstory for Rifts.

SO?

9. If used as a "Dimension Book," Chaos Earth could, by definition, not have been its own game.

Lets see what rules did they change? If none then it's as you described the dimension books anyway.

10. The final, and most important point (though just a guess on my part) is that it is linked to the Rifts timeline because Palladium probably felt that it would sell better than as a Dimension Book. I mean, look around at the boards. Dimension books aren't as big a deal to gamers as Rifts material, or new, complete games.

So your saying that their wasting time printing up all the Phase world books? Seems pretty popular to me. New games...Splicers doesn't seem very active now.

[dataweaver]

Right or wrong, I'm going with "CE is the Rifts prequel" line.

As I understand it, NEMA ultimately doesn't make it; the Demon Plagues eventually wipe it out.

However, NEMA does leave two legacies which survive into the Rifts era. The first is an archive of data and an enclave of humanity near old Chicago, which eventually grows to become Chi-Town. There's no shame in this, because Chi-Town was instrumental to ending the Dark Ages; without the efforts of NEMA, the Dark Ages may well have lasted much longer. NEMA bears no responsibility for the corruption of its legacy by the Prosek line.

The second legacy is the Glitter Boy. Though I don't know how power armor with 20-year nuclear power supplies managed to remain active through three hundred years of chaos, somehow the Chromium Guardsmen managed to do so. While the organization called NEMA didn't make it, individual heroes inspired by it did.

[dataweaver]

That's an interesting premise, and could make for a fun game (which, in the end, is all that really matters). However, it's more "inspired by Chaos Earth" than it is "Chaos Earth" itself. When discussing what the game's supposed to be, GM's prerogative is a footnote: "if you don't like what we intended, change it". The canon is that Chaos Earth is the backstory for Rifts, for good or ill.

Also, consider that the defining feature of Chaos Earth isn't the presence of NEMA; it's the Coming of the Rifts. I can easily see BtS being the turn-of-the-millenium era of the history of Rifts Earth; heck, I might even be able to buy the idea that Dark Day happened in pre-Rifts history as described in Nightbane (although I have some reservations about that one). But if the Cataclysm doesn't take the form of Ley Lines supercharging to the point that they're visible, monstrous hordes pouring out of Rifts, and natural disasters smashing civilization into the ground, you're not really dealing with Chaos Earth. You're dealing with something that's about as close to Chaos Earth as the first edition of After the Bomb was to Rifts.