Immovable Object vs. Unstoppable Force

[Vrykolas2k]

Just realized something the other day. We now have both examples of infinite MDC and MDC damage.

The Doomsday Weapon in Three Galaxies is effectively invulnerable and the Synchro Cannon from the REF books is immeasurable MDC damage effectively destroying anything in it's path.

Question is now, what happens when they meet?

Nothing. They never meet. In fact, if they WERE to meet, they wouldn't be allowed to meet. That which is deep is shallow.

[cornholioprime]

Please remember that NO Weapon in the Palladium Megaverse does more damage than the equivalent of 4 000 000 M.D.C.(SOME of the REF/Robotech Master Weps do as much, but NOT more, damage than the SDF-1 Main Gun). Besides that, doesn't the Artifact's Main Gun have roughly 10X the range???? Even if they face off, the REF Ship goes bye-bye at the first couple of blasts (doesn't deplete ALL of the MDC in one shot, but almost definitely cripples the Ship)...while you maybe get to roll for damage on the Artifact's Paint Job (you will chip the Neutronium, one-coat paint on a roll of 91-00, anything below that will leave a scuff mark).

[Svartalf]

mmmmmmmmkay,

Drugs are bad, you shouldn't do drugs.

He's perfectly okay ... if something is so impossible as to be paradoxical, it's the DM's duty to see to it that it doesn't happen

[Carl Gleba]

Just realized something the other day. We now have both examples of infinite MDC and MDC damage.

The Doomsday Weapon in Three Galaxies is effectively invulnerable and the Synchro Cannon from the REF books is immeasurable MDC damage effectively destroying anything in it's path.

Question is now, what happens when they meet?

Hmm, paradox eh?

How would you as a GM resolve it?

Carl

"Never thought I'd create a Palladium paradox!"

[Svartalf]

Just realized something the other day. We now have both examples of infinite MDC and MDC damage.

The Doomsday Weapon in Three Galaxies is effectively invulnerable and the Synchro Cannon from the REF books is immeasurable MDC damage effectively destroying anything in it's path.

Question is now, what happens when they meet?

Actually... if shot at with something of the order of the SDF1's synchro cannon, even the Dooms day Weapon of Pentarken would fold up and be destroyed... it has oodles of MDC, enough to resist any conventional attack, but not something that can literally core a planet, or destroy a space fleet.

[Svartalf]

What ship is that Marduk gun mounted on? and in what supplement does this appear? (I suspect the deck plans, as I don't have those)

BTW ... full obliteration weapons are not THAT unique : check, the main gun on every Zentraedi vessel, but for the Salan scout... and even the REF synchro cannon (though at 10 Kfeet, that one is dreadfully short ranged for use against a space target).

[Vrykolas2k]

mmmmmmmmkay,

Drugs are bad, you shouldn't do drugs.

He's perfectly okay ... if something is so impossible as to be paradoxical, it's the DM's duty to see to it that it doesn't happen

Precisely. Thank you for succinctly stating the obvious, friend cat.

[cornholioprime]

Assuming I remember the descriptions of both the Three Galaxies doomsday device and the description of the most powerful (nonunique) main gun arrays to date in a Palladium book: the Marduk heavy particle beam cannon, both cases aren't actually infinite; they're just taking their number ranges to the limits of sanity.

The Marduk heavy particle beam cannon does 2D6XOne million MD to a planet.

The Doomsday device is made out of a neutronium armor that's not so much indestructable as it is undamageable by conventional weapons smaller than the big guns we're now questioning. I think it very well could sustain visible damage from a Marduk cruiser's main gun array, though it is also likely to survive the attack.


If someone has the book, a quote from Macross II's deck plans regarding the maximum damage that Ingues' mobile fortress could dish out would also be helpful.

Sorry, Uncle (Dragonball?!?!?!) Z, but the Neutronium Alloy is quoted to be in the Billions, not millions. As a GM, I would still be generous and allow the Player Character (Fleet??) to roll for damage to the Neutronium Paint Job..........Seriously, though, you got a REALLY big problem with a ship that fold virtually ALL DAY LONG, and not just once or twice a day or so for the REF Ships, Please remember that a ship with an I.Q. of 30 isn't goin to just SIT there, Please also remember that NOTHING else in Rifts has anything serious with a range of anywhere NEAR the MINIMUM 500 Mile range of the Artifact's Main Gun. As it stands now, nobody but nobody is going to take this Ship by brute force. You're pretty much stuck with trying to find a way to sneak aboard.................

[Svartalf]

Well... you COULD send in some kind of cruiser or destroyer with MASSIVE amounts of cruise missiles... those match the range for the Pentarken main gun... but of course, even a space fleet of those, assuming not too many of the missiles got shot down before they even hit target, would not be able to do anything resembling major damage to the neutronium structure...

Now if you give me a Zentraedi battlegroup opening up with the main gunes from 150 Kmiles away... no more Pentarken artifact, no casualty at all...

I'm starting to wonder if my RT Master/Zentraedi/Invid enclave in the Kreeghor sector of the Corkscrew isn't quite underrated... maybe they ought to be on the way to conquering the area.

[Vrykolas2k]

Looking up the stats for the Artifact, I see that neither the Artifact nor its drones has the firepower necessary to take on a large Zentraedi or Marduk fleet. The planet killer is out gunned! That said, it would still take a prolonged engagement to destroy the Artifact, and the damned thing is likely to retreat well before it sustains more than superficial damage.

And after inflicting VERY heavy losses...

[Carl Gleba]

I'm unfamiliar with all things Robotech, so help me out here. The artifact, doesn't it do something like 1D4x100,000 MD per shot? That's a phase blast. How much MDC does the force field of a standard vessel from Robotech have, because it better be a lot. The phase blast might not destroy the ship, but it's gonna liquify anything inside if it bypasses the force field.

The damage listed is 2D4X10,000MD per blast, and it's a "phased energy blast", which I did not believe was the same as a Phase blast since this one actually tears apart matter. Carl should be able to clear that up.

You are correct. It is not a true phase beamer which bypasses armor. It's just a different form of energy that pretty much disintegrates everything.

Carl

[Carl Gleba]

You are correct. It is not a true phase beamer which bypasses armor. It's just a different form of energy that pretty much disintegrates everything.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'd been wondering for a while.

No problem, just ask like Zerebus did. I don't bite

Carl

[Svartalf]

Zentraedi fleets have laser turrets that do "just" 1D6X100 MD per blast, so they would have a harder time.

Yeah, but the main particle beam guns are supposed to be powerful enough to atomize just anything within the 200 000 kilometer range, and I don't remember just how big the ray is supposed to be

[chaserone]

Usually its a blast that is two miles wide and 60000 miles long that completely destroys everything in its path of fire. Although, against planetary surfaces, the main gun of the SDF-1 does 2d6 x 1000000 MD. I believe the main gun of zentran warships do the same.

[cornholioprime]

Come down off the caffeine. I didn't say the blast would destroy it.

Sorry, Mr. Z, Sir, I wasn't trying to YELL at you (uh-oh, I did it again!!!!) but we are talkng about a fleet of big, powerful, but slow-moving ships, versus another big, slow-moving ship that not not only has range beyond anything I've seen in any Palladium/Rifts Book (and I used to own the REF Books, then threw them away like an idiot), but which will also, in lieu of moving, will simply fire, then jump...fire then jump, all the while enjoying superior range.

****i'll also switch to half-caf****

[cornholioprime]

Zentraedi fleets have laser turrets that do "just" 1D6X100 MD per blast, so they would have a harder time.

Yeah, but the main particle beam guns are supposed to be powerful enough to atomize just anything within the 200 000 kilometer range, and I don't remember just how big the ray is supposed to be

Does anybody remember if the REF/Masters ships actually have such long ranges??? I used to actually own these books but threw them away at one point (**dodges the boot thrown at him by Svartalf**), and I don't remember anymore.......I do remember that they'll cut about 4 miles into a planetary body before being 'absorbed' by the Planet)

[cornholioprime]

****i'll also switch to half-caf****

It was a play on the origins of your name... nevermind.

The post you originally replied to wasn't supposed to be about an actual engagement with fleet tactics, etc, it was just an unstoppable force vs. immoveable object debate wherein everyone was being nice and not trying to dodge or outwit eachother.

I know, what you mean, Z, both in terms of how the Great Cornholio gets his powers, AND how the Post was originally started. It's just kinda non- 'realistic', in my view, to ask two opponents to measure up to each other, but then tell them to stand in one spot. To me, the proper context of ANY Showdown is to see how the opponents involved use the Powers and Abilities at their disposal.........I can beat ANY Vampire, as long I have some wood with reach, and the Vampire stands completely still......

[cornholioprime]

The Immovable Objects always beats the Unstoppable Force.

When something says 'destroys everything' it's implied that they mean 'everything destroyable'.

I'm not sure why this is coming into debate, didn't they edit that Synchro cannon thingy to do 1D4 million MD or some weirdness? I wouldn't know, don't have Robotech.... sounds like good damage, better than you see for the spaceships out there... shameless...

Besides, if the Book describes the Cannon as destroying everything in space, but 'only' 2D4 Million damage to a planetary body, one may just assume that the Book Author was saying ''OK, this beam doesn't REALLY destroy EVERYTHING that it touches, but if your Ship is in the path of the beam....''roll up'' a new Ship.

Just as the beam wouldn't destroy a Greater or Greates Rune Weapon, they also wouldn't destroy the Artifact. Despite the truth thay they dea out MILLIONS of MDC, the Articfact has BILLIONS of MDC....and since each Billion is a thousand Millions, your vaunted Robotech Main Cannons, for all their power, are essentially doing the same damage as the Baseball Bat vs. Tank Example in the Rifts Main Book..........

[cornholioprime]

****i'll also switch to half-caf****

It was a play on the origins of your name... nevermind.

The post you originally replied to wasn't supposed to be about an actual engagement with fleet tactics, etc, it was just an unstoppable force vs. immoveable object debate wherein everyone was being nice and not trying to dodge or outwit eachother.

I know, what you mean, Z, both in terms of how the Great Cornholio gets his powers, AND how the Post was originally started. It's just kinda non- 'realistic', in my view, to ask two opponents to measure up to each other, but then tell them to stand in one spot. To me, the proper context of ANY Showdown is to see how the opponents involved use the Powers and Abilities at their disposal.........I can beat ANY Vampire, as long I have some wood with reach, and the Vampire stands completely still......

::hands cornholio a wooden toothpick and a completely immobile vampire::
you sure about that?

Oh, Crap.....wait, I've figured this one out!!! I simply wave the Toothpick around in a highly entertaining manner (I am a rare O.C.C., the Atlantean Wood Pyramid Master), distracting the Vampire with my (Erotic??) display so thorughly that (s)he doesn't notice that the Sun coming up until its too late........

VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!!

[Syndicate]

I love causing debate mayhem....hehehehe.

I knew you were the root of all evil...

[Colonel Wolfe]

I agree with those in favor of Immoveable object. Unstoppable force would strike Immoveable object, but immoveable object being immoveable will not budge the force will subsequently disperse in all directions weakinging the total force because of the dispersal to eventually be dispelled amongst the cosmos while the Immoveable object remains.

The Unstopable Object hits the Unmoveable object, Deflecting at an Angle, Continuing moving, while the Unmoveable object stays in place.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Immovable Objects always beats the Unstoppable Force.

When something says 'destroys everything' it's implied that they mean 'everything destroyable'.

I'm not sure why this is coming into debate, didn't they edit that Synchro cannon thingy to do 1D4 million MD or some weirdness? I wouldn't know, don't have Robotech.... sounds like good damage, better than you see for the spaceships out there... shameless...

Besides, if the Book describes the Cannon as destroying everything in space, but 'only' 2D4 Million damage to a planetary body, one may just assume that the Book Author was saying ''OK, this beam doesn't REALLY destroy EVERYTHING that it touches, but if your Ship is in the path of the beam....''roll up'' a new Ship.

Just as the beam wouldn't destroy a Greater or Greates Rune Weapon, they also wouldn't destroy the Artifact. Despite the truth thay they dea out MILLIONS of MDC, the Articfact has BILLIONS of MDC....and since each Billion is a thousand Millions, your vaunted Robotech Main Cannons, for all their power, are essentially doing the same damage as the Baseball Bat vs. Tank Example in the Rifts Main Book..........

The SDF-1's Main canon as printed in the Robotech RPG book1:
1. The Main Gun/Reflex Cannon.
This is part of the original Robotech Master weapon restored. It does devastating amounts of damage, but draws so much energy that it can only fire once every ten minutes. The original SDF-1 design was slightly flawed, which meant that many times the gun could not fire at all, or fired once and only once. When the Pinpoint Barrier or force field is engaged, the main gun can not fire. Also, because of irreparable damage from the disappearance of the fold system, the reflex cannon can only fire in the Battloid-like mode.

Primary Purpose: Assault
Secondary Purpose: Anti-Warship
Mega-Damage: Absolutely destroys EVERYTHING in its path of fire. That's
an energy beam approximately two miles (3.2km) wide and 60,000 miles
long.
Range: 60,000 miles (96,480km)
Rate of Fire: Once every two minutes. After the first shot, roll on the following
table for each shot to follow.
1-25 Energized and ready to fire.
26-50 Requires an additional ten minutes to recharge.
51-75 Requires an additional twenty minutes to recharge.
76-00 Will not fire; needs 24 hours to recharge.
Payload: Unlimited

There is nothing about "2D4xmillion" in the description.

As for this Artifact Veruse a Zentradia Fleet.
The Imperial Fleet Assigned to Capture the SDF-1 was 1 Million Ships. 90% of these Had a Canon Simmiler to that of the SDF-1 (but on deal 2D6xMillion to a planet, With 200,000Mile Range in Space). Thats should be plenty of Damage... around 2D6x 1,000,000,000,000 Mega-Damage.

[cornholioprime]

The Immovable Objects always beats the Unstoppable Force.

When something says 'destroys everything' it's implied that they mean 'everything destroyable'.

I'm not sure why this is coming into debate, didn't they edit that Synchro cannon thingy to do 1D4 million MD or some weirdness? I wouldn't know, don't have Robotech.... sounds like good damage, better than you see for the spaceships out there... shameless...

Besides, if the Book describes the Cannon as destroying everything in space, but 'only' 2D4 Million damage to a planetary body, one may just assume that the Book Author was saying ''OK, this beam doesn't REALLY destroy EVERYTHING that it touches, but if your Ship is in the path of the beam....''roll up'' a new Ship.

Just as the beam wouldn't destroy a Greater or Greates Rune Weapon, they also wouldn't destroy the Artifact. Despite the truth thay they dea out MILLIONS of MDC, the Articfact has BILLIONS of MDC....and since each Billion is a thousand Millions, your vaunted Robotech Main Cannons, for all their power, are essentially doing the same damage as the Baseball Bat vs. Tank Example in the Rifts Main Book..........

The SDF-1's Main canon as printed in the Robotech RPG book1:
1. The Main Gun/Reflex Cannon.
This is part of the original Robotech Master weapon restored. It does devastating amounts of damage, but draws so much energy that it can only fire once every ten minutes. The original SDF-1 design was slightly flawed, which meant that many times the gun could not fire at all, or fired once and only once. When the Pinpoint Barrier or force field is engaged, the main gun can not fire. Also, because of irreparable damage from the disappearance of the fold system, the reflex cannon can only fire in the Battloid-like mode.

Primary Purpose: Assault
Secondary Purpose: Anti-Warship
Mega-Damage: Absolutely destroys EVERYTHING in its path of fire. That's
an energy beam approximately two miles (3.2km) wide and 60,000 miles
long.
Range: 60,000 miles (96,480km)
Rate of Fire: Once every two minutes. After the first shot, roll on the following
table for each shot to follow.
1-25 Energized and ready to fire.
26-50 Requires an additional ten minutes to recharge.
51-75 Requires an additional twenty minutes to recharge.
76-00 Will not fire; needs 24 hours to recharge.
Payload: Unlimited

There is nothing about "2D4xmillion" in the description.

As for this Artifact Veruse a Zentradia Fleet.
The Imperial Fleet Assigned to Capture the SDF-1 was 1 Million Ships. 90% of these Had a Canon Simmiler to that of the SDF-1 (but on deal 2D6xMillion to a planet, With 200,000Mile Range in Space). Thats should be plenty of Damage... around 2D6x 1,000,000,000,000 Mega-Damage.

Extrapolation, Colonel.
A]] There are other Guns at least as powerful as the SDF-1's, with similar range, width of beam, and destructive capability, notably the forward primary weps on the Zentraedi Command Ships (GEEK ALERT: I am a Robotech Junkie....or at least a former one . The Robotech Masters Scientist known as Zor, who perfected the Protoculture Matrix, also designed much of the original SDF-1, including the Main Gun [the Tech/Specs for the Main Gun was 'standard' in the Zentraedi Fleet, at least for the largest of their Ships], before he or one of his clones ran off with it). Perhaps I had (I say HAD the Books) a revised edition of the Robotech Books for Palladium; in those books, they allowed that even though the Main Weapon of the SDF-1 would simply destroy any Ship then known, it would only do several million damage to a planetary Body, granted it was several miles wide, and about 2-4 miles into the Planetary Crust.
B]] Your Exponent is a few decimal places off. You have the damage to a planet listed as 2D6 times one trillion, itself a thousand billions. I will state once again that the Artifact has Billions of MDC, which is at least hundreds of times more than those Cannons can muster at maximum strength, 2D6 times one Million.......
C]] If by 2D6 X 1 Trillion, you mean an entire Zentraedi fleet against the Artifact, then you're not arguing Irresistable Force versus Immovable Object, now are you?? You're now arguing millions of Irresistable Forces against ONE Immovable Object, correct??? In that case, I could simply get Billions of Creatures/Ships that all do ONE MDC each and have then fire simultaneously for the same effect, right. Unless mistaken, I do believe that the name of this Post was "Immovable Object versus Irresistable Force, right????
D]] Why are the Zentraedi Ships allowed to move into position, but the Artifact cannot??? You realize that with its unmatched micro Space-Fold capabilities (up to 500 Light-Years worth of Space Jumps, per day), it could decimate even a fleet of Millions of Zentradi, and possibly with very little damage itself (Supercomputer with IQ of 30 making guerilla attacks, then space-folding to a distant or protected location before the Target is even aware of what hit him) Jumping in, striking, and jumping back out again and again and again.....................meanwhile, the Space Fold Systems of the Zentraedi are nowhere near as advanced...

[Colonel Wolfe]

Extrapolation, Colonel.
A]] There are other Guns at least as powerful as the SDF-1's, with similar range, width of beam, and destructive capability, notably the forward primary weps on the Zentraedi Command Ships Perhaps I had (I say HAD the Books) a revised edition of the Robotech Books for Palladium; in those books, they allowed that even though the Main Weapon of the SDF-1 would simply destroy any Ship then known, it would only do several million damage to a planetary Body, granted it was several miles wide, and about 2-4 miles into the Planetary Crust.
B]] Your Exponent is a few decimal places off. You have the damage to a planet listed as 2D6 times one trillion, itself a thousand billions. I will state once again that the Artifact has Billions of MDC, which is at least hundreds of times more than those Cannons can muster at maximum strength, 2D6 times one Million.......
C]] If by 2D6 X 1 Trillion, you mean an entire Zentraedi fleet against the Artifact, then you're not arguing Irresistable Force versus Immovable Object, now are you?? You're now arguing millions of Irresistable Forces against ONE Immovable Object, correct??? In that case, I could simply get Billions of Creatures/Ships that all do ONE MDC each and have then fire simultaneously for the same effect, right. Unless mistaken, I do believe that the name of this Post was "Immovable Object versus Irresistable Force, right????
D]] Why are the Zentraedi Ships allowed to move into position, but the Artifact cannot??? You realize that with its unmatched micro Space-Fold capabilities (up to 500 Light-Years worth of Space Jumps, per day), it could decimate even a fleet of Millions of Zentradi, and possibly with very little damage itself (Supercomputer with IQ of 30 making guerilla attacks, then space-folding to a distant or protected location before the Target is even aware of what hit him) Jumping in, striking, and jumping back out again and again and again.....................meanwhile, the Space Fold Systems of the Zentraedi are nowhere near as advanced...

Thanks for getting a Little Flame-ish here....
a) Both in my 1st priniting, and my 9th printing, the SDF-1 canon stay the same. also, by the Animation the SDF-1 destroyed all 5 Million ships & The mother Ship of the Zentradia Grand Fleet... its a powerful ship, but not a Unique one. also the SDF-1 Beam Range is much Shorter, 60,000 Miles compared to 200,000 miles of a Zent main gun, and the SDF-1's is 2 Miles wide, compared to 1 Mile on the Zent Ships, the Zent Heavy Particle Beam Canons are "Simmiler" to the SDF-1's main Canon... but the SDF-1's can Slice through a Planet no problem (as long as the planet is less then 60,000 miles in diameter).
B & C) The Zents do not work alone. They Never send 1 Ship to do the Job 1 Million can handel just fine.
D) I never said either would be allowed to move in to position, the fact is this is a debate about something that can never happen. but Anything using Gurrila tactics will do signigiant damage to a Larger foe, but even so, the Zents still don't run in Fleets less then 1000's. When they pick up a Boggy attacking them, Combined Fire of Lighter Waepons can still do a Signigant amount of damage. (The main laser canons do several thousand each, with a 200,000 mile range) and Time-Delayed Fold is not a problem of the Masters or Zentradie Ships, only the Rebuilt Human ones.

(GEEK ALERT: I am a Robotech Junkie....or at least a former one . The Robotech Masters Scientist known as Zor, who perfected the Protoculture Matrix, also designed much of the original SDF-1, including the Main Gun [the Tech/Specs for the Main Gun was 'standard' in the Zentraedi Fleet, at least for the largest of their Ships], before he or one of his clones ran off with it).

Actually, by Canon Robotech, he Stole the SDF-1, its nick named "Zor's Battlefortress", but he had very little to do with the building of it. the only Reason the masters Cloned him was to find the location of the SDF-1.

[cornholioprime]

Sorry, Your math is wrong, we use American math, not The UK's With the Thousand Things.

As for the artifact it would be wiped out unless it went directly for commando runs against any marduk fleet.


nevermind the fleet that was sent to Earth in macross II

Zentraedi Invasion force, will eventually win, too , unless the artifact does something special
(or it learns how to unleash the minmei attack... )

Ah, Angryjack....angry, but WRONG. The number listed in a recent post was this one: [[1,000,000,000,000]]. That number is a Trillion, which is 1,000 Billions, which is itself 1,000 Millions. BTW, in my Post I said that this number that he gave was wrong if he was talking about the damage from a single ship, but not necessarily if he was adding up the combined firepower of an entire Zentraedi Fleet.
And for the record, in British/UK English they typically don't even use the terms 'Billions', or 'Trillions', or 'Quadrillions'; they stop at a million and say things like "1 thouand million (billion)," or "1 million million (trillion)," or even "1 thousand million million (Quadrillion)." I was using phrases like "a thousand millions" to explain what Billions are, and so on....and to show just how 'useless' even multi-million MDC Weps like the reflex Cannon are against the Artifact.

[[And yes, the Episode of the Original Star Trek in which the Enterprise had to fight a planet-killing, automated Doomsday Machine with an indestructible NEUTRONIUM Hull was one of my favorites....although even as a kid I called it the "Space Bugle" or the "Funnel of Doom...."]]

[Carl Gleba]

[[And yes, the Episode of the Original Star Trek in which the Enterprise had to fight a planet-killing, automated Doomsday Machine with an indestructible NEUTRONIUM Hull was one of my favorites....although even as a kid I called it the "Space Bugle" or the "Funnel of Doom...."]]

Yeah that was an awesome episode.

Car;

[cornholioprime]

[[And yes, the Episode of the Original Star Trek in which the Enterprise had to fight a planet-killing, automated Doomsday Machine with an indestructible NEUTRONIUM Hull was one of my favorites....although even as a kid I called it the "Space Bugle" or the "Funnel of Doom...."]]

Yeah that was an awesome episode.

Car;

I wonder if the guys at Rifts want us Players to destroy the Artifact in a similar manner????? Of course, as GM I would rule that someone would have to guide the Bomb/Ship ALL THE WAY IN........

[Colonel Wolfe]

[[And yes, the Episode of the Original Star Trek in which the Enterprise had to fight a planet-killing, automated Doomsday Machine with an indestructible NEUTRONIUM Hull was one of my favorites....although even as a kid I called it the "Space Bugle" or the "Funnel of Doom...."]]

Yeah that was an awesome episode.

Car;

I wonder if the guys at Rifts want us Players to destroy the Artifact in a similar manner????? Of course, as GM I would rule that someone would have to guide the Bomb/Ship ALL THE WAY IN........

thats would also require you to play the "Death Theam" from the Old Star trek... that was played everytime Kirk was in a "Near-Death" Situation....
as well as adding the "Fight" music to your game....

[Shin Kenshiro]

I'd like to point out that using the arguement Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object, the Artifact is not allowed to use its guns.

You're asking if an REF cannon can beat the nuetronium hull of the artifact. Not which can hang in a face to face beatdown. If you're going for a facedown where the Artifact can fire, than you're obligated to allow the Zentraedi or Marduk to use their standard battle approach. That involves thousands of warships with heavy particle beam cannons, which will means thousands of millions of damage in one round.

So YES...the Immovable Object WILL fall if you want it to fight back.

So, WHAT is the range of the Artifact's weapons?

Every heavy particle beam cannon on all Macross ships is 200k miles...not kilometers.

And for the Marduk main fortress, the eye cannon does the same damage as the others, and is limited to 5 shots per hour.

[Dr. Doom III]

thats would also require you to play the "Death Theam" from the Old Star trek... that was played everytime Kirk was in a "Near-Death" Situation....
as well as adding the "Fight" music to your game....

There are people that don't already?

[cornholioprime]

[[And yes, the Episode of the Original Star Trek in which the Enterprise had to fight a planet-killing, automated Doomsday Machine with an indestructible NEUTRONIUM Hull was one of my favorites....although even as a kid I called it the "Space Bugle" or the "Funnel of Doom...."]]

Yeah that was an awesome episode.

Car;

I wonder if the guys at Rifts want us Players to destroy the Artifact in a similar manner????? Of course, as GM I would rule that someone would have to guide the Bomb/Ship ALL THE WAY IN........

thats would also require you to play the "Death Theam" from the Old Star trek... that was played everytime Kirk was in a "Near-Death" Situation....
as well as adding the "Fight" music to your game....

AND THEN, AT THE RIGHT MOMENT>>>>>JIM "Cable Guy" CARREY HIMSELF APPEARS, CARRYING ONE OF THOSE VULCAN THINGIES!!!!!!!!

[cornholioprime]

I'd like to point out that using the arguement Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object, the Artifact is not allowed to use its guns.

You're asking if an REF cannon can beat the nuetronium hull of the artifact. Not which can hang in a face to face beatdown. If you're going for a facedown where the Artifact can fire, than you're obligated to allow the Zentraedi or Marduk to use their standard battle approach. That involves thousands of warships with heavy particle beam cannons, which will means thousands of millions of damage in one round.

So YES...the Immovable Object WILL fall if you want it to fight back.

So, WHAT is the range of the Artifact's weapons?

Every heavy particle beam cannon on all Macross ships is 200k miles...not kilometers.

And for the Marduk main fortress, the eye cannon does the same damage as the others, and is limited to 5 shots per hour.

Logic accepted, Spanish...I thought up such a scenario, and was in Error; The Artifact should NOT be able to fight back in the example...

My apologies.

But I STILL think that the Artifact would easily stand up to the Particle Beam of a Marduk Cannon.
Now, let's see....
Marduk Cannon does 2D6 X 1 000 000 MDC Damage.....spread over an area cone of roughly 2 Miles........carry the three......drain the dragon.........divide by four.......my Monkey has been bad, and must be spanked for being so naughty..........aw, heck.

I CAN'T FIGURE THIS ONE OUT!! HELP!!! SOMEBODY HELP MEEEEE!!!!!!

How much damage would the Marduk Cannon do to a two mile diameter area on the Artifact, and how much MDC would the Artifact have in that Radius????

Surely one of you Big, Strong, Strapping young men can figure out the Calculations for this. BTW, the total area of the Artifiact is approximately 11 915 cubic Miles (21.5 X 10 X 65 Miles Dimensions). Its TOTAL Damage Capacity for the Hull is ".....somewhere in the Billions...." How much damage to a two-mile Diameter circle on the surface of the Artifact??? Let's assume that the Artifact has somewhere between 5-10 Billion Total MDC for the Hull.

(I didn't get quite this far in Advanced Math at High School/College.)

[Shin Kenshiro]

just how much MDC does the Artifact have? Is it 1d6x10 billion or something? I need a number here to work statistics.

[cornholioprime]

just how much MDC does the Artifact have? Is it 1d6x10 billion or something? I need a number here to work statistics.

I was assuming 5-10 Billion MDC. Pick a number in that range if you like......

[Shin Kenshiro]

like I said, Figure 100,000 MDC per square foot. 1 Million per 10 square feet.

If that were the durability....*shudders* a Zentraedi ship would core that thing in one shot

[cornholioprime]

like I said, Figure 100,000 MDC per square foot. 1 Million per 10 square feet.

If that were the durability....*shudders* a Zentraedi ship would core that thing in one shot

So far, I have a durability of roughly 460 000 MDC per Square Mile for the Artifact, assuming a TOTAL value of 5 BILLION MDC.

How much area in a 2 mile DIAMETER Circle???
Area of a Circle is [Pi] X Radius Squared.

3.14 X 1 (1 squared....DUH!!) = 3.14 Miles -Area of the Circle where the Zentraedi Beam hits.

If I A]] took the correct step in multiplying Length X Width X Height, and then B]] was correct in taking the TOTAL amount of MDC and dividing it by 11 915 CUBIC Miles, then AngryJack 'wins' and the Artifact gets cored in one shot.

Now here's the Question: should I have calculated the TOTAL Hull MDC per Square Mile with the Calculations that I made using Cubic Miles? Or should I have only somehow calculated Square Miles for the 'size' of the Artifact??

I am willing to concede to Angryjack if his Damage Values are correct, but I think that I messed up my math somewhere.........

Helpss uss, Shin..........................

[TechnoGothic]

ok, lets get terms right...

Unmovable Object does not mean Indestructible Object...

those are TWO seperate things

an Unmovable Object hit by an Irrestable Force wouldnt move, but it can be damaged or destroyed...but it didnt move

Ok, the Artifact is MDC right...
So MDC Weapons wil harm it...
It may have a Billion or more MDC though right ??
Sounds like a Moon or Small Planet
Now picture the Zentran Fleet using the Big Guns on a Planet...Thats whats going to happen to the Artifact...
You'll *Dent* up the surface area pretty badly alright, but you have alot of work if you want to blow it up...into an Astroid Field

The ONLY way i see the Artifact not taking damage, is if it was Giga-damage materials....which would require another Giga-damage weapon to harm it...yeah yeah yeah, Rifter 9 1/2, but maybe its time to bring real Giga-damage into the settings for better Scale referances...

If i was in charge of the Artifact and i took 2d4x1,000,000 Damage in One hit from a single gun...run, run run...specially if their was a Fleet of those guns aimed at me...

Unmovable doesnt equal Indestructible

[Borast]

Cornholio...easier method...

Transfer the measurements into feet/metres and then redo the math. A 2 mile circular area should have more than 3.1417... mile area. Mind you, I'm overdue for sleepytime right now, and being that I have a cold, I may be wrong...but I don't think I am.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Cornholio...easier method...

Transfer the measurements into feet/metres and then redo the math. A 2 mile circular area should have more than 3.1417... mile area. Mind you, I'm overdue for sleepytime right now, and being that I have a cold, I may be wrong...but I don't think I am.

It could if it the Surface the beam hits is Curved, angled or bent...

Honstly, the SDF-1's Cannon will dot it just fine... it Destroyed everything, no "damage" mentioned.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not familiar with the Doomsday weapon, but it sounds a lot like something from an old Star Trek episode...

[Guest]

25 Trek Geek Points.

[cornholioprime]

I'm not familiar with the Doomsday weapon, but it sounds a lot like something from an old Star Trek episode...

It is. See Carl Gleba's response to one of my own, on page 4 of this Post, second from the top.