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do you think the nuke rules should be used?

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

That depends on what the hell you're talking about.

There are some rules for nukes in Coalition Navy SB. If I understand correctly, a good way of ruining someone's day in Atlantis.

More info please. I don't have any fraggin idea what your talking about.

Page 48 in SB4: Coalition Navy talks about nukes and the effects of one of the big ones going off.

Defender_X wrote:Page 48 in SB4: Coalition Navy talks about nukes and the effects of one of the big ones going off.

And the effects are....?

Larsen wrote:More info please. I don't have any fraggin idea what you're talking about.

That makes Two...er, ALL of us.

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

Yes, No, and Mabey. In that order.

Let's see, for the Tomahawk 3d4x100 damage at ground zero and 1d4x100 to anything up to 3 miles away. And using the optional damage rules, which everyone should consider standard coud add another 3d6x10+3d6 or 2d4x10+3d6 depending on distance. The other is 2d4x100 and 5d6x10 respectively. The optional damage rules are the same. Nothing has been published on ICBMs that I know of, so it's safe to assume that the target in question for one of those is gone.

Defender_X wrote:Let's see, for the Tomahawk 3d4x100 damage at ground zero and 1d4x100 to anything up to 3 miles away. And using the optional damage rules, which everyone should consider standard coud add another 3d6x10+3d6 or 2d4x10+3d6 depending on distance. The other is 2d4x100 and 5d6x10 respectively. The optional damage rules are the same. Nothing has been published on ICBMs that I know of, so it's safe to assume that the target in question for one of those is gone.

Assuming that is what he's asking about when he says:

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

then...

NO.
Those rules suck. Nukes should be MUCH, MUCH more powerful.
I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

True, but when the damage sucks, over-saturate the area.

shortstop4313 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:then...

NO.
Those rules suck. Nukes should be MUCH, MUCH more powerful.
I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

But there's always the rule of diminishing returns...

Is there really?
I mean, when it comes to explosives how much does it really come into play?

Certainly not to that extent!

If I wanted to nuke Atlantis, I would use weapons that are in the megaton range. Hit it till it's glass, only way to be sure.

Defender_X wrote:If I wanted to nuke Atlantis, I would use weapons that are in the megaton range. Hit it till it's glass, only way to be sure.

Rifts Nukes are pantywaist FOR A REASON.

If they were as powerful as Killer's Math (correctly) indicates, then EVERY Nation or City-State on Rifts Earth would need only a few....and you can sure as hell bet that Atlantis, and EVERY other Megaversal Power would EACH have a whole freakin' Stockpile.

It's called GAME BALANCE.

Besides, don't be too sure that a Nuclear Assault would work on Atlantis anyhow. Worse than that, if your Coalition's High Command were fool enough to even TRY, what do you think the COUNTERRATTACK would be????

A giant Crater that glows in the dark like the one in Rifts Moscow...only the one I'm speaking of would be, oh, Chi-Town sized........

cornholioprime wrote:

Defender_X wrote:If I wanted to nuke Atlantis, I would use weapons that are in the megaton range. Hit it till it's glass, only way to be sure.

Rifts Nukes are pantywaist FOR A REASON.

If they were as powerful as Killer's Math (correctly) indicates, then EVERY Nation or City-State on Rifts Earth would need only a few....and you can sure as hell bet that Atlantis, and EVERY other Megaversal Power would EACH have a whole freakin' Stockpile.

It's called GAME BALANCE.

But wimpy nukes aren't necessary to game balance, so there's no real point in not giving them the power they deserve.
I mean, 3d4x100 MD for a nuke in the kiloton range!?
A Glitterboy or full conversion Borg could take a direct hit and survive!

In any case, there are enough other factors to balance things out that having wimpy nukes is pointless.

Besides, don't be too sure that a Nuclear Assault would work on Atlantis anyhow. Worse than that, if your Coalition's High Command were fool enough to even TRY, what do you think the COUNTERRATTACK would be????

A giant Crater that glows in the dark like the one in Rifts Moscow...only the one I'm speaking of would be, oh, Chi-Town sized........

Good examples.

shortstop4313 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

But there's always the rule of diminishing returns...

Is there really?
I mean, when it comes to explosives how much does it really come into play?

Certainly not to that extent!

Exactly, not to that extent... But for small tactical nukes like those used in a Tomahawk, I think those damages are somewhat reasonable... Probably needs a bit more dice.

I'd say a bit more zeroes...

A low yield tactical weapon should still be able to destroy anything short of a Phase World space frigate with it's shields fully charged.

The nukes typically fired in Rifts are essentially micro yield weapons, designed to get more bang than a conventional warhead, but not cause the radiation and extended radius of damage.

shortstop4313 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
But wimpy nukes aren't necessary to game balance, so there's no real point in not giving them the power they deserve.
I mean, 3d4x100 MD for a nuke in the kiloton range!?
A Glitterboy or full conversion Borg could take a direct hit and survive!

A good point. But would 3d4x1000 be too much? Or more along the lines of 5d6x100

Well, 1 Kiloton would be 1d4x110,000 MD by my calculations...
How many kt does the Tomahawk have?
It's been a while since I read the book, but I thought it was 10s or 100s of kilotons...
Meaning that they drop the damage down to at least 1/1000th of what it should be...
I'd say something like 1d4x1000 per kiloton wouldn't be excessive.

It gets better.

MOST of our current weapons IRL are up to 10-20 MEGATONS of Damage........

cornholioprime wrote:It gets better.

MOST of our current weapons IRL are up to 10-20 MEGATONS of Damage........

Actualy most of thoes have been dismantled, let me find the yeild chart back,

cornholioprime wrote:It gets better.

MOST of our current weapons IRL are up to 10-20 MEGATONS of Damage........

Yes... and here "Mega" means 1 MILLION....

1 Megaton would be in the neighborhood of 1d4x110 million MD, before any reduction for "diminishing returns..."

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Let's see, for the Tomahawk 3d4x100 damage at ground zero and 1d4x100 to anything up to 3 miles away. And using the optional damage rules, which everyone should consider standard coud add another 3d6x10+3d6 or 2d4x10+3d6 depending on distance. The other is 2d4x100 and 5d6x10 respectively. The optional damage rules are the same. Nothing has been published on ICBMs that I know of, so it's safe to assume that the target in question for one of those is gone.

Assuming that is what he's asking about when he says:

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

then...

NO.
Those rules suck. Nukes should be MUCH, MUCH more powerful.
I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

The standard CS warhead is one KT I belive.

Drakenred wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:It gets better.

MOST of our current weapons IRL are up to 10-20 MEGATONS of Damage........

Actualy most of thoes have been dismantled, let me find the yeild chart back,

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Wea ... ngall.html

Drakenred wrote:

Drakenred wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:It gets better.

MOST of our current weapons IRL are up to 10-20 MEGATONS of Damage........

Actualy most of thoes have been dismantled, let me find the yeild chart back,

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Wea ... ngall.html

That was really cool Drakenred, you rock.

And as for the big 'ins, they would be extreamly difficult to deliver without orbital access and either satalite capabilities or really good maps and extensive testing.

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

yes they should be used

Hmmm.... let's see

GM: You see some monsters.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a battalion of CS troops.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a brigade of Glitterboys led by 3 gods and an alien intelligence.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead

To me that is just not role playing. Maybe more realistic nukes would make some people happy, but they would ruin the game to me. There just can't be that kind of uber powerful weapon in an RPG and still have the RPG be fun.

basicaly the problem with nukes and explosives in the game is that Even if a TLACM uses a 200kt warhead, and its yeild is only 3D4X100,

that means a typical 3D4X10 lrm blast is 20kt, or just over the yeild of the Hiroshima bomb which to me is just silly

However if you just say that that is the damage at the EDGE of the 1000 ft blast radius and scale the damage up the closer you get to the center, then it makes sence.

Athos wrote:Hmmm.... let's see

GM: You see some monsters.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a battalion of CS troops.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a brigade of Glitterboys led by 3 gods and an alien intelligence.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead

To me that is just not role playing. Maybe more realistic nukes would make some people happy, but they would ruin the game to me. There just can't be that kind of uber powerful weapon in an RPG and still have the RPG be fun.

To me, roleplaying includes NOT GIVING YOUR CHARACTERS NUKES....
Especially not a whole lot of them.

killerfish wrote:do you think the nuke rules should be used?

in reference to what?

Defender_X wrote:There are some rules for nukes in Coalition Navy SB. If I understand correctly, a good way of ruining someone's day in Atlantis.

not a good idea if use nuclear weapons as how they are used in rifts. Now if you extrapolate how nuclear weapons are used in the real world to rifts(which a few peole have done already), then you might have a better chance of taking out atlantis

I would say that a 200kt Nuke has a "ground zero" (within 10 mt)yeild of 2D4X10,000,000 with the efective damage droping by 90% every doubling of the blasst radius from their if you want to be technical about it

so Impact-10 m 2D4X 10millionMDC(Efectivly vaping anything their
10-20 2D4X1,000,000
20-40 2D4X100,000
40-80 2D4X10,000
80-160 2D4X1000
160-320 2D4X100
320-640 2D4X10
640-1280m 2D4
1280-2560 2D4X100 SDC(Only, True MDC structures will handle the blast, I know this may sound like a odd glitch but this was to "pad" the table a bit and my assumtion is that a true MDC structure is hardend to deal with things like huricains)
2560-5120 2D4X10 SDC
5k-10k 2D4 SDC


hmm this table seems to seriously reduce the efective blast radius of a typical nuke.

Athos wrote:Hmmm.... let's see

GM: You see some monsters.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a battalion of CS troops.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead. You see a brigade of Glitterboys led by 3 gods and an alien intelligence.

Players: Nuke them.

GM: They're dead

To me that is just not role playing. Maybe more realistic nukes would make some people happy, but they would ruin the game to me. There just can't be that kind of uber powerful weapon in an RPG and still have the RPG be fun.

thats not RPing, giving nukes to players is a sign of a weak GM.

Drakenred wrote:I would say that a 200kt Nuke has a "ground zero" (within 10 mt)yeild of 2D4X10,000,000 with the efective damage droping by 90% every doubling of the blasst radius from their if you want to be technical about it

so Impact-10 m 2D4X 10millionMDC(Efectivly vaping anything their
10-20 2D4X1,000,000
20-40 2D4X100,000
40-80 2D4X10,000
80-160 2D4X1000
160-320 2D4X100
320-640 2D4X10
640-1280m 2D4
1280-2560 2D4X100 SDC(Only, True MDC structures will handle the blast, I know this may sound like a odd glitch but this was to "pad" the table a bit and my assumtion is that a true MDC structure is hardend to deal with things like huricains)
2560-5120 2D4X10 SDC
5k-10k 2D4 SDC


hmm this table seems to seriously reduce the efective blast radius of a typical nuke.

Dangit, I had the link to the caluator for this, but for some bloody reason the link now sends me to a conversion page for a card game shesh

let me see if Robotech has the formula

The actualy Vacume formula for determining damage at range is actualy straightforward, its =Y/(r^2) for all three energy outputs, (Radiation-thermal-Blast), its when you get into the atmoshpere that things get nuts in part due to the way the radiation and blast interact (or not) with the air

acording to that formula, at 1000m the blast yeild (asumeing his original formula) for a 100kt yeild works out to 1D4X10 at 100 m (again in a vacum)

while a 200mt yeild nuke works out to 1D4X215(again this is assumeing in a vacume) at the "305m/1000ft"mark

Bascialy as you can see, anything inside of that BR is going to get cooked anyway


as for the Cratering efect, the reality is that the excavation is mostly a blast efect(apart from that part that is superheated and vaporised then condenses into ash) thus it tends to suffer more dramaticaly from blast atenuation(basicaly the blast wave has to dump energy into the ground to get it to move, and the ground is a fairly good absorber of energy, Which, incidentaly, is why a GB or NGB has sutch a more restricted blast radius than a "true air burst" (where the "fireball" does not toutch the ground) the blast travels through the Air wich has less mass that can absorb the shockwave

Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, roleplaying includes NOT GIVING YOUR CHARACTERS NUKES....
Especially not a whole lot of them.

If they exist in the game, characters will eventually find a way to get them, so you either have to power them down or not have them in the game.

On the other hand, maybe it is that Nukes in Rifts are actually OVERPOWERED.

Consider this: In Hiroshima RL, there were STILL some skeletons of Buildings that survived at GROUND ZERO. This means that even with a Blast designed to cause the maximum damage to the widest area, and despite the millions-of-degrees in Temperature, SOME High S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Materials like Steel Girders used in the buildings' construction, remained -albeit NOT 100% intact.

Add to this the fact that JUST BECAUSE you have Nuclear Devices (again, IRL) with Yields thousands of times Greater than the ones used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that does NOT automatically mean that you get 1000 TIMES the Damage. Physics and Energy are funny that way..

Chances are, therefore, that Rifts Nukes are PLENTY powerful as they are; in fact, based on what we know of Nuclear Weps in the RW, they're extremely OVER-powered; my understanding is that even with today's Weps, we'd STILL have SOME high S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Structures standing, whether Airburst or Groundburst, right there at Ground Zero. Unless, of course, someone wants to tell us that the Weaponeers of the Golden Age somehow managed to "tweak" Relativity and/or Quantum Mechanics so that they could increase the Potential Energy Release in Atomic Nuclei from e=mc² to e=mc³ or something.......

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, roleplaying includes NOT GIVING YOUR CHARACTERS NUKES....
Especially not a whole lot of them.

If they exist in the game, characters will eventually find a way to get them, so you either have to power them down or not have them in the game.

You know every time I hear someone say that I get a mental picture of a GM and player having a conversation that goes somethig like this

Pl: We have a Billion Credits, and I want to buy a 200kt nuke

GM;(as The ultimat boss of the black and market arms dealer): sorry none avalible at that price,

Pll: I roll up a new charater According to the OCC description he cn start with any Vehicle so he starts with a fully armed OHIO class sub

GM: Damit! Foiled again!

If a GM dosent want you to have soemthing their is no reason why you should get them

you want to hijack a nuke, fine,

their must be 50 ways to keep them out of a players hand

Just fire a burst of railgun slugs at the nuke
Active permision link + anti tamper device= dirty bomb squib
dont let anyone die on the self destruct button that is wired to a 10 kt demolition bomb
Were the FRACK did all of theis guards come from??

and the ultimate GM Nuke Safeguard

Dameit! after all this work the only thing In this missle bunker is Col Lybocs DB-Porn stash and Magic item Toybag???????

But dont be surprised when the guard you shot dies right on top of the self destruct button anyway

I agree that the really big bombs should still be there - along with countermeasures like anti-missile systems.

The PCs should never realistically get the chance to build or secure the big bad nukes - but a few big bad nukes can be the focus of an entire campaign of you handle it right.

Besides the big bad nukes should be the ultimate insurance for a Coalition States or NGR or Atlantis - but the world is so messed up, they won't use them for fear of making it worse.

wolfe wrote:

A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.

seen tnt sticks in merc bok do a 5d6 sdc..

You're right. I was using the dynamite stats from HU2, but when in Rifts...

either way thats some seriously sick tnt -very low nitro content-

How much more powerful is TNT than normal dynamite?

A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.

getting technical...
thats if the explosive energy was measured as you put it...
the precise measurement they have found is 1 x 10^12 gram calories per Kiloton TNT, the A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons of tnt wasn't very accurate, why people still use it is beyond me..
enough of that technical..

You completely lost me here, but it sounds like you know what you're talking about...
Dumb it down, elaborate, and try again.
I've been wondering about this stuff.

haven't really decided if the nukes are doing enough damage in the blast radius.. definitely not for a direct hit..

mean, 3d4x100 MD for a nuke in the kiloton range!?
A Glitterboy or full conversion Borg could take a direct hit and survive

the suit would survive.. it only protects the pilot up to 752F meanwhile the center of the fireball is in the millions of degrees fahrenheit, and if the power armor,and robot vehicles can only protect the organic parts so much, than its fair to presume the borg body can only protect its organics soo much -never did see anything on that-
so your only collecting irradiated metal and charcoal.. not very wimpy..
but then the whole protects against 752F is never dealt with other than that lovely statement in the power armor features..

Yes. According to the rules, they'd survive.
I only use the temperature protection rules when the person is exposed to the extreme temps for prolonged periods of time.
Otherwise Plasma weapons and such would cause major problems.

unless the coalition decided to start up with the megaton range don't really see the point of them.. the u.s. doesn't have many now any more as it is.

Alien Intelligences and other nasties.
Or for the Xiticix, if they ever get really out of hand.

but the direct hit damage should be measured in the thousands no doubt there, but the radius range after that, X1000s is excessive for a kt rated weapon..
just how much damage do you think the high pressure blast wave and flying debris will do to M.D.C structures?

Good question.

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, roleplaying includes NOT GIVING YOUR CHARACTERS NUKES....
Especially not a whole lot of them.

If they exist in the game, characters will eventually find a way to get them, so you either have to power them down or not have them in the game.

Not true at all.
I've been running Rifts since 1991, and we've used maybe half the stuff in the books. Maybe less.
It's not the GM's job to let the players run around like kids in a candy store; it's to provide them with an interesting and balanced gameworld, with good plots and NPCs.

cornholioprime wrote:On the other hand, maybe it is that Nukes in Rifts are actually OVERPOWERED.

Consider this: In Hiroshima RL, there were STILL some skeletons of Buildings that survived at GROUND ZERO. This means that even with a Blast designed to cause the maximum damage to the widest area, and despite the millions-of-degrees in Temperature, SOME High S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Materials like Steel Girders used in the buildings' construction, remained -albeit NOT 100% intact.

Read the example in the main book about doing 3 MD to a car.
The car is "blown in half," not "disintigrated."

Add to this the fact that JUST BECAUSE you have Nuclear Devices (again, IRL) with Yields thousands of times Greater than the ones used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that does NOT automatically mean that you get 1000 TIMES the Damage. Physics and Energy are funny that way..

Get me a realistic formula for calculating damage and I'll be a happy man.
I somehow doubt that Palladium used any formula; more likely they pulled the numbers out of thin air.

Drakenred wrote:you want to hijack a nuke, fine,

their must be 50 ways to keep them out of a players hand...

The problem is all inside your head, she said to me
The answer is easy if you take it logically
I’d like to help you in your struggle to be free
There must be fifty ways to stop your PCs

She said it’s really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won’t be lost or misconstrued
But I’ll repeat myself at the risk of being crude
There must be fifty ways to keep your nukes
Fifty ways to stop your PCs

Just stab 'em in the back, jack
Make a new plan, stan
You don’t give 'em their toy, roy
You don't give 'em for free
Blow up their bus, gus
You don’t need to discuss much
Don't give 'em the key, lee
Just stop your PCs...

Apologies to Simon & Garfunkel.
(But never to the players)

I mean, really.

And I thought my "Coalition Girls" parody was bad.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

Actually your calculations are off by a factor of four. TNT is actually some pretty light stuff. As such, your typical stick only weights around half a pound, (according to my Dad, who's handled the stuff a great deal). In other words that end result of a One Kiloton blast could be about 4D4x110,000 MD or 3D6x100,000 MD at groud zero.

But then again, there are many shapes, sizes and weights for dyanmite and TNT, so it's hard to gague exactly how big Palladium's universal "stick" really is.

cornholioprime wrote:Consider this: In Hiroshima RL, there were STILL some skeletons of Buildings that survived at GROUND ZERO. This means that even with a Blast designed to cause the maximum damage to the widest area, and despite the millions-of-degrees in Temperature, SOME High S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Materials like Steel Girders used in the buildings' construction, remained -albeit NOT 100% intact.

That's the interesting thing about air-burst nukes... they actually have more punch and destructive force a few hundred feet away form ground zero than directly benieth the explosion. See, the expolsion goes in all directions with equal force, but a vector of that blast bounces off the ground and merges with another vector of the blast. This convergence point is called the "Mock Stem", and from here, not ony does the conjoined blast wave travel on a flat plane over the earth, but it also DOUBLES in power! That's why an air-burst nuke is so much more destructive than a ground-burster.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wolfe wrote:

A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.

seen tnt sticks in merc bok do a 5d6 sdc..

You're right. I was using the dynamite stats from HU2, but when in Rifts...

Here's a better question. There are also Megadamage sticks of dynamite, and it too is called "dynamite". How do we know that the 5D6 SDC sticks aren't little two-ouncers and the 2D4 MD isn't a hefty 3.5 pound stick? If it's all "Dynamite", then isn't it probable that the damage scale is more so determined by volume? And if that's the case, then how do we gague exactly what the base-line is for how much dynamite does how much damag? Without exact numbers, it's impossible to tell for sure.

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

Actually your calculations are off by a factor of four. TNT is actually some pretty light stuff. As such, your typical stick only weights around half a pound, (according to my Dad, who's handled the stuff a great deal). In other words that end result of a One Kiloton blast could be about 4D4x110,000 MD or 3D6x100,000 MD at groud zero.

But then again, there are many shapes, sizes and weights for dyanmite and TNT, so it's hard to gague exactly how big Palladium's universal "stick" really is.

cornholioprime wrote:Consider this: In Hiroshima RL, there were STILL some skeletons of Buildings that survived at GROUND ZERO. This means that even with a Blast designed to cause the maximum damage to the widest area, and despite the millions-of-degrees in Temperature, SOME High S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Materials like Steel Girders used in the buildings' construction, remained -albeit NOT 100% intact.

That's the interesting thing about air-burst nukes... they actually have more punch and destructive force a few hundred feet away form ground zero than directly benieth the explosion. See, the expolsion goes in all directions with equal force, but a vector of that blast bounces off the ground and merges with another vector of the blast. This convergence point is called the "Mock Stem", and from here, not ony does the conjoined blast wave travel on a flat plane over the earth, but it also DOUBLES in power! That's why an air-burst nuke is so much more destructive than a ground-burster.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wolfe wrote:

A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.

seen tnt sticks in merc bok do a 5d6 sdc..

You're right. I was using the dynamite stats from HU2, but when in Rifts...

Here's a better question. There are also Megadamage sticks of dynamite, and it too is called "dynamite". How do we know that the 5D6 SDC sticks aren't little two-ouncers and the 2D4 MD isn't a hefty 3.5 pound stick? If it's all "Dynamite", then isn't it probable that the damage scale is more so determined by volume? And if that's the case, then how do we gague exactly what the base-line is for how much dynamite does how much damag? Without exact numbers, it's impossible to tell for sure.

Holy CRAP!!!!

The Dead One REALLY does know his $h!+ when it comes to Nukes.

Hey Dead Boy!!!


Just so we can have a little fun with a Real World Rifts Equivalent, just HOW MUCH MDC do you think happened to Hiroshima at Ground Zero, RL???

Considering that the Damage was probably fairly Uniform over a limited Area, but SDC Girders STILL survived, do you even think that the Airburst's damage was even MegaDamage in the first place????

the question was a simple one. should nukes be used in the game? I have used them in a game that i ran before i went to iraq. But it was a stop the bad guys from setting them off not a massive assault on any one target.
but if i were to hit a target with ICBMs remember this, ICBMS have to go into space to hit there target and i dont think they can last against the defenses in space


there is no second place

cornholioprime wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've worked the damage out before, and it comes out like this:
A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.
Say each stick weighs 2 pounds.
1 metric ton of dynamite should therefore do 1d4x10x1100 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x11,000 SDC, which comes out to 1d4x110 MD.
A Kiloton is equal to 1,000 tons, which means that a 1 KT blast would do something like 1d4x110,000 MD.
I forget how many kilotons the missiles in the CS Navy book are supposed to have, but it's more than one.
So I consider the damage to be a bit under-powered.

Actually your calculations are off by a factor of four. TNT is actually some pretty light stuff. As such, your typical stick only weights around half a pound, (according to my Dad, who's handled the stuff a great deal). In other words that end result of a One Kiloton blast could be about 4D4x110,000 MD or 3D6x100,000 MD at groud zero.

But then again, there are many shapes, sizes and weights for dyanmite and TNT, so it's hard to gague exactly how big Palladium's universal "stick" really is.

cornholioprime wrote:Consider this: In Hiroshima RL, there were STILL some skeletons of Buildings that survived at GROUND ZERO. This means that even with a Blast designed to cause the maximum damage to the widest area, and despite the millions-of-degrees in Temperature, SOME High S.D.C./Low M.D.C. Materials like Steel Girders used in the buildings' construction, remained -albeit NOT 100% intact.

That's the interesting thing about air-burst nukes... they actually have more punch and destructive force a few hundred feet away form ground zero than directly benieth the explosion. See, the expolsion goes in all directions with equal force, but a vector of that blast bounces off the ground and merges with another vector of the blast. This convergence point is called the "Mock Stem", and from here, not ony does the conjoined blast wave travel on a flat plane over the earth, but it also DOUBLES in power! That's why an air-burst nuke is so much more destructive than a ground-burster.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wolfe wrote:

A single stick of dynamite does something like 1d4x10 SDC.

seen tnt sticks in merc bok do a 5d6 sdc..

You're right. I was using the dynamite stats from HU2, but when in Rifts...

Here's a better question. There are also Megadamage sticks of dynamite, and it too is called "dynamite". How do we know that the 5D6 SDC sticks aren't little two-ouncers and the 2D4 MD isn't a hefty 3.5 pound stick? If it's all "Dynamite", then isn't it probable that the damage scale is more so determined by volume? And if that's the case, then how do we gague exactly what the base-line is for how much dynamite does how much damag? Without exact numbers, it's impossible to tell for sure.

Holy CRAP!!!!

The Dead One REALLY does know his $h!+ when it comes to Nukes.

Hey [color=blue]Dead Boy!!!

Just so we can have a little fun with a Real World Rifts Equivalent, just HOW MUCH MDC do you think happened to Hiroshima at Ground Zero, RL???

Considering that the Damage was probably fairly Uniform over a limited Area, but SDC Girders STILL survived, do you even think that the Airburst's damage was even MegaDamage in the first place????[/color]

a couple of points

"Ground zero" is a bit of a misnomer in that the actual bomb went off at an altitude of 1850 resulting in a estimated overpreasure of 12 psi at "ground 0" (This is one of the Ironies of Nukes, they never seem to get the estimated yeild right, the altitude was set assumeing that the bomb would only yeild 5 Kt.

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:To me, roleplaying includes NOT GIVING YOUR CHARACTERS NUKES....
Especially not a whole lot of them.

If they exist in the game, characters will eventually find a way to get them, so you either have to power them down or not have them in the game.

Sorry, but no. Just because they exist in the game world doesn't mean the players can get ahold of them. If they do, it's the result of bad GMing.

If the PCs can say, find a CS sub, board it and kill the entire crew and steal the nukes, then the GM is either being too easy on them and not playing the CS well, or he let the PCs get too powerful and is paying the price for it. either way it's bad GMing.

killerfish wrote:the question was a simple one. should nukes be used in the game? I have used them in a game that i ran before i went to iraq. But it was a stop the bad guys from setting them off not a massive assault on any one target.
but if i were to hit a target with ICBMs remember this, ICBMS have to go into space to hit there target and i dont think they can last against the defenses in space


there is no second place

In my games nukes exist, but in much the same way that they exist in the real world. a few powerful governments have them, they don't use them, and you'll never see one.

I like having the stats for them (even if I did have to add zeros to the damage.) because I can see situations where the CS might deploy nukes in close proximity to the PCs.