Any sufficiently advanced technology...

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:17 pm

Can be considered Magic, right?

I had a really neat idea for a simple little Super Invention that I was considering leaving laying around in PFRPG as a boon.

Sword
Two Minors
Hyperdensity (mostly affects the sword, making it basically a minor Rune weapon equivalent, but later as it becomes more "attuned" it could affect the owner too)
Disintegration (at first it will only be active along the edge of the sword, but it can't be turned off, you touch the edge, you get cut, badly, and bleed, maybe as it becomes more attuned you could "throw" the effect, but it could reflect back onto you as per the power)

Just thought it seemed like a really neat idea, and as we only have two players, picking the power level up a little won't be too bad, as it will let us do more higher level adventures without weakening them.

Jimmy Crat · Unread post by **Jimmy Crat** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:29 pm

Yea, sounds like a great idea.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:30 pm

I have never had the occasion in a game to make the parallel of high technology being equated to magic. We've always had hi-tech (like Iron Man armour, and stuff) and Magic (like Dr Strange), and thee was never any indication that one could be the other. Even the most advanced technology had to conform to the laws of science, while magic could flagrantly disregard physical science.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:46 pm

Sentinel wrote:I have never had the occasion in a game to make the parallel of high technology being equated to magic. We've always had hi-tech (like Iron Man armour, and stuff) and Magic (like Dr Strange), and thee was never any indication that one could be the other. Even the most advanced technology had to conform to the laws of science, while magic could flagrantly disregard physical science.

Yeah, thats a play difference between our playstyle, I don't see any effects in the magic in game that couldn't be explained through Quantum Effects, so Magic is naturally just a different type of science to me.

A Sword like that would definitely be "Magical" to someone who didn't know what it was, considering how it will have been sitting with the blade buried halfway in an indestructible rock for a long time, waiting for a compatible DNA having Human to come along and grab the handle...

Overlord Rikonius · Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:03 pm

I made a few magic item/magic weapon characters with alien or future background who were really packing nanotech gadgets or strange transdimensional physics widgets. And I'm sure there are "sword and sorcery" novels set on the ruins of ancient civilizations where "magic" items are just supertech.

And Larry Niven's Warlock stories were a good example of putting coherent rules on magic.

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:39 pm

Sounds almost like you're talking about Super-Inventions here...

"Hey, he must be a powerful wizard to fly around on that magic carpet..."

"Nah... he just stuffed a repulsorlift disc in that cushion and sewed it to the carpet so it wouldn't fall off..."

:lol:

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:01 pm

I am talking about Super Inventions.

I was trying to find a way to give the NPC I'm playing a fairly powerful sword, but didn't want a normal rune weapon, and didn't want to go too overboard with the powers.

So I figure a Super Invention Sword is a pretty cool way to do it.

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:09 pm

Edge wrote:I am talking about Super Inventions.

I was trying to find a way to give the NPC I'm playing a fairly powerful sword, but didn't want a normal rune weapon, and didn't want to go too overboard with the powers.

So I figure a Super Invention Sword is a pretty cool way to do it.

I can't see any reason why a Super Invention couldn't be in the form of an ancient style weapon... though I'm not sure I'd try making Rocket Fists one of the powers it packs.

"Okay Bob... see that red button on the hilt? Press it... now walk a mile THAT way to go retrieve it."

Of course, now that I think about it... I think I might have just come close to converting Farslayer. :shock:

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:38 pm

Ranger wrote:Take a gun back to the roman empire and you have magic (according to them). So yes, technology sufficently highly advanced might as well be magic to some.

Oh sure, it looks that way to those who don't know better.
But, the bullet can't make a 90 degree turn, and it is subject to the laws of inertia, gravity, all that stuff. I just like to make a clear distinction between what is actually highly advanced science, and what is truly magic.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:43 pm

Sentinel wrote:
Ranger wrote:Take a gun back to the roman empire and you have magic (according to them). So yes, technology sufficently highly advanced might as well be magic to some.

Oh sure, it looks that way to those who don't know better.
But, the bullet can't make a 90 degree turn, and it is subject to the laws of inertia, gravity, all that stuff. I just like to make a clear distinction between what is actually highly advanced science, and what is truly magic.

Micronized Vectored Thrust Ramjet Rounds with Internal Guidance systems could make turns, and nicely defy gravity and inertia til the power ran out.

Oh, one of the Super Invention options, is for a Melee Weapon (the last one in fact, Nat A.R. 17, S.D.C. 300) so I figured, why not, it's pretty damn cool too!

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:36 am

Edge wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
Ranger wrote:Take a gun back to the roman empire and you have magic (according to them). So yes, technology sufficently highly advanced might as well be magic to some.

Oh sure, it looks that way to those who don't know better.
But, the bullet can't make a 90 degree turn, and it is subject to the laws of inertia, gravity, all that stuff. I just like to make a clear distinction between what is actually highly advanced science, and what is truly magic.

Micronized Vectored Thrust Ramjet Rounds with Internal Guidance systems could make turns, and nicely defy gravity and inertia til the power ran out.

Didn't the Tom Selleck movie Runaway feature bullets that could turn corners?

Edge wrote:Oh, one of the Super Invention options, is for a Melee Weapon (the last one in fact, Nat A.R. 17, S.D.C. 300) so I figured, why not, it's pretty damn cool too!

By Jove, I do believe the boy's correct.

And right above it, a gun-style weapon... that could make for an interesting character with Matter Expulsion: Metal; it would certainly put new meaning on the old phrase "when the lead starts flying." :lol:

On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character. :ok:

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:05 am

On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character.

Kinda like the Guns from Logans' Run, eh? (the books, not the movie).
Although they weren't energy blasts, the Gun could fire Tangler, Vapor, Nitro, Ripper, Needler, and Homer rounds.

Overlord Rikonius · Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:34 am

Sentinel wrote:
On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character.

Kinda like the Guns from Logans' Run, eh? (the books, not the movie).
Although they weren't energy blasts, the Gun could fire Tangler, Vapor, Nitro, Ripper, Needler, and Homer rounds.

Doh!

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:10 pm

Lord High Rik Ion Blaster wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character.

Kinda like the Guns from Logans' Run, eh? (the books, not the movie).
Although they weren't energy blasts, the Gun could fire Tangler, Vapor, Nitro, Ripper, Needler, and Homer rounds.
Doh!

I've heard the Homer rounds could be fired in bursts... "Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-!!!!!!!"

But actually I was thinking more along the lines of Mandarin, Space Ghost, and Blaze... even though only one of those three actually used a gun per se.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:53 pm

gadrin wrote:
Edge wrote:Micronized Vectored Thrust Ramjet Rounds with Internal Guidance systems could make turns, and nicely defy gravity and inertia til the power ran out.

Naruni "smart" micro-missles from the Phase World Sourcebook.

Those too..

I was thinking more of a design I made for a .357 Magnum or larger caliber round for a character in Hu2 who hunts super speedsters/hyper agile fighters/flyers.

It was pretty cool.

Oh, for a gun firing different energy..

Check out Outlaw Star.

Overlord Rikonius · Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:18 pm

Uncle Servo wrote:
Lord High Rik Ion Blaster wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character.

Kinda like the Guns from Logans' Run, eh? (the books, not the movie).
Although they weren't energy blasts, the Gun could fire Tangler, Vapor, Nitro, Ripper, Needler, and Homer rounds.
Doh!

I've heard the Homer rounds could be fired in bursts... "Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-!!!!!!!"

But actually I was thinking more along the lines of Mandarin, Space Ghost, and Blaze... even though only one of those three actually used a gun per se.

"Brak! If you don't lay off that... whatever it is you're doing, I'm going to blast Zorak!"
"I don't believe you, Space Ghost!"
"Believe him! Believe him!"

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:40 pm

I liked when he was first fighting suzuka, and he was spinning the swords around then he just decides "screw it" and chucks them at her and runs.

Very witty and nicely done series that can provide a lot of inspiration for a game.

znbrtn · Unread post by **znbrtn** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:35 pm

Edge wrote:I liked when he was first fighting suzuka, and he was spinning the swords around then he just decides "screw it" and chucks them at her and runs.

Very witty and nicely done series that can provide a lot of inspiration for a game.

very, very true. ols is, thus far, my favorite anime overall, and part of it is because of how good the setting is for gaming. the other major part? hot springs planet tenrei!

ZEN · Unread post by **ZEN** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:00 pm

Um.. ok, so the subject was Super Inventions instead of Magic items?
I have always liked the idea of making something large, like a pyramid, into an advanced form of technology. You could have pyramids that healed, preserved, dehydrated, transformed or temporally relocated objects and living things placed inside them.
What about pyramids that tapped into stored energy and allowed occupants to project thoughts and beams of force?

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:28 am

Indeed, the idea is to have a Super Invention that would appear to be a Magic item by the "natives" who wouldn't know any better.

Hell, even the User might think it was Magic.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:38 am

Uncle Servo wrote:
Lord High Rik Ion Blaster wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
On the other hand, one gun firing a variety of different types of energy blasts could also make for a fun character.

Kinda like the Guns from Logans' Run, eh? (the books, not the movie).
Although they weren't energy blasts, the Gun could fire Tangler, Vapor, Nitro, Ripper, Needler, and Homer rounds.
Doh!

I've heard the Homer rounds could be fired in bursts... "Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-Doh-!!!!!!!"

But actually I was thinking more along the lines of Mandarin, Space Ghost, and Blaze... even though only one of those three actually used a gun per se.

The Sleeper Gun only carried six rounds, so you'd have to reload Homer everytime you used it.

So, no Bursting Homers for you mister.

Mandarins' rings are a pretty good example of what you guys are talking about: Advanced Technology that can be mistaken for magic. I'd never thought that about Space Ghosts' Power Bands, but I can see that. Blazes' Shotgun was actually magical, and in part, that's the point I'm trying to make. I would want things like the Eye of Agamotto, and the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak and so on, to be clearly distinguishable from advanced technology so as not to lose part of what makes them special.
I get the argumaent that any technological device will seem magical to those who don't understand it, but then a character from the 1,000,000th Century is not going to be bamboozled by a cigarette lighter, Power Bands or a Flight Ring. The Eye of Agamotto will never be understood under any scientific study, because it's true magic. No matter how advanced the technology, there will be science-oriented characters who can decypher it.

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:36 am

Sentinel wrote:The Sleeper Gun only carried six rounds, so you'd have to reload Homer everytime you used it.

I think Homer gets loaded quite enough on his own, thank you very much.

Sentinel wrote:Mandarins' rings are a pretty good example of what you guys are talking about: Advanced Technology that can be mistaken for magic. I'd never thought that about Space Ghosts' Power Bands, but I can see that. Blazes' Shotgun was actually magical, and in part, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Yes, I have the issue where Blaze got his 'shotgun upgrade,' but the reason I included it was because it's the same basic principle -- the source of someone's 'super abilities' lie in the weapons he carries.

And I view Blaze's shotgun to essentially be a Super-Invention gizmo created through mystical means. Not all of 'em have to be technological in nature.

Sentinel wrote:I would want things like the Eye of Agamotto, and the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak and so on, to be clearly distinguishable from advanced technology so as not to lose part of what makes them special.

I can see your argument here, and I agree that some mystic artifacts should indeed be clearly distinguishable... but when you're talking about things like the two you mentioned I would think that the power levels alone would make them special. To me there's a huge gap between the Eye of Agamotto and Blaze's Shotgun -- it's kinda like the difference between a Dell laptop and a Cray supercomputer.

Sentinel wrote:I get the argumaent that any technological device will seem magical to those who don't understand it, but then a character from the 1,000,000th Century is not going to be bamboozled by a cigarette lighter, Power Bands or a Flight Ring. The Eye of Agamotto will never be understood under any scientific study, because it's true magic. No matter how advanced the technology, there will be science-oriented characters who can decypher it.

I think the key factors here are not only how advanced the tech is, but also the level of sophistication on the part of those who don't understand it as well as the gizmo's intended purpose.

For instance, take an X-Box back to King Tut's court (along with a flat screen plasma TV and a generator) and -- BAM! -- you're a mighty wizard whose magical scrying pool can tell stories of the gods.

And what effect would a single A-10 Warthog (fully loaded) have had if the Spartans had been able to call in close air support at Thermopylae? For that matter, how about a single Los Angeles class attack sub versus the entire Spanish Armada?

On a more personal level, there's a new product out on the market that helps get rid of warts by freezing them... Imagine someone using that during the Middle Ages. Even better, try one man (or woman) walking around with a modern-day fire extinguisher.

However, if you show up with a few inflatable life rafts on board the Titanic you wouldn't stand much chance of being considered a wizard... although if you brought enough to save roughly 4,000 people it'd make for some interesting 'alternate timeline' plots.

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:31 am

And I view Blaze's shotgun to essentially be a Super-Invention gizmo created through mystical means. Not all of 'em have to be technological in nature.

Well, there is already a catagory for Mystic: Enchanted Weapons and Enchanted Objects. So, it's not really necessary to make Super Invention: Mystic in addition.

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:07 pm

Sentinel wrote:
And I view Blaze's shotgun to essentially be a Super-Invention gizmo created through mystical means. Not all of 'em have to be technological in nature.

Well, there is already a catagory for Mystic: Enchanted Weapons and Enchanted Objects. So, it's not really necessary to make Super Invention: Mystic in addition.

Hmmm... a shotgun as a rune weapon...

Holy cow! Blaze is really packing a Dragon Rod from Atlantis! :lol:

Sentinel · Unread post by **Sentinel** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:32 pm

Uncle Servo wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
And I view Blaze's shotgun to essentially be a Super-Invention gizmo created through mystical means. Not all of 'em have to be technological in nature.

Well, there is already a catagory for Mystic: Enchanted Weapons and Enchanted Objects. So, it's not really necessary to make Super Invention: Mystic in addition.

Hmmm... a shotgun as a rune weapon...

Holy cow! Blaze is really packing a Dragon Rod from Atlantis!

Also see Rifts: New West for TW pistols, rifles, and shotguns.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:30 pm

Way to semi-threadjack me guys!

I was thinking more along the lines of having something that would be really high tech nowadays, in a setting like Palladium Fantasy, where it would be "Gee Whiz!" and "Gaaaawleee" type stuff.

Uncle Servo · Unread post by **Uncle Servo** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:41 pm

Edge wrote:Way to semi-threadjack me guys!

I was thinking more along the lines of having something that would be really high tech nowadays, in a setting like Palladium Fantasy, where it would be "Gee Whiz!" and "Gaaaawleee" type stuff.

We at the Thread Derailment Alliance are feeling generous at the moment... therefore we haven't given your thread the full treatment...

...yet.

Guest · Unread post by **Guest** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:52 pm

Uncle Servo wrote:
Edge wrote:Way to semi-threadjack me guys!

I was thinking more along the lines of having something that would be really high tech nowadays, in a setting like Palladium Fantasy, where it would be "Gee Whiz!" and "Gaaaawleee" type stuff.

We at the Thread Derailment Alliance are feeling generous at the moment... therefore we haven't given your thread the full treatment...

...yet.

*decapitates Uncle Servo's Derailment Attempt*

Do not doubt the power of the Ninjato Kuseru gave me, it is the above mentioned Disintegretion edged, Super Invention blade.