A gripe about Rifts Ultamite

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

The original Main Book said they were anti-CS, and they still work as anti-supernatural. The description in SoT:4 and in Ultimate Edition has them gain alot and lose almost nothing in the transition.

Also, where do you guys keep drumming up these theories about Rifts: Ultimate Edition?

It was supposed to be this...or supposed to be that...where?

They've stated from the beginning in their press releases what Rifts: Ultimate Edition was going to be, and they've kept to that idea of what it is going to be.

[Kalinda]

I didn't expect anything different from the material presented in SoT4. Would have liked something a little different? Yes. Expected? No.

Just house rule it.

[Dr. Doom III]

:nh:

The original Main Book said they were anti-CS,

No it doesn't.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

:nh:

The original Main Book said they were anti-CS,

No it doesn't.

Yes it Does.

[Nxla666]

Ok this is gonna be dangerous but I am going to get between Doom and Josh and say that they are both "unright".

The RMB stats that it is "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition."

However it does imply that due to CS corruption a lot of Cyber-knights come into conflict with them. But the official policy is to avoid the CS and concentrate on defending the weak and helpless.

[SkyeFyre]

RMB pg 63
"They will oppose injustice and evil in all it's forms, from demon or dragon to the Coalition or a fellow knight gone bad."...etc.

From what I get from that is they're against anything evil, not specifically the Coalition. Going down it says that the Coalition is against the cyber-knights but it does not say anything about it being the other way.

My conclusion... They are NOT anti-CS. The point goes to Doom.

EDIT: "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition." That's a rumor. It's a belief. Non confirmed. You can't make a point out of that.

[Dr. Doom III]

RMB pg 63
"They will oppose injustice and evil in all it's forms, from demon or dragon to the Coalition or a fellow knight gone bad."...etc.

From what I get from that is they're against anything evil, not specifically the Coalition. Going down it says that the Coalition is against the cyber-knights but it does not say anything about it being the other way.

My conclusion... They are NOT anti-CS. The point goes to Doom.

EDIT: "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition." That's a rumor. It's a belief. Non confirmed. You can't make a point out of that.

Flawless Victory.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

RMB pg 63
"They will oppose injustice and evil in all it's forms, from demon or dragon to the Coalition or a fellow knight gone bad."...etc.

From what I get from that is they're against anything evil, not specifically the Coalition. Going down it says that the Coalition is against the cyber-knights but it does not say anything about it being the other way.

My conclusion... They are NOT anti-CS. The point goes to Doom.

EDIT: "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition." That's a rumor. It's a belief. Non confirmed. You can't make a point out of that.

Flawless Victory.

They are still anti-CS by association. They may not always fight the Coalition, but a large amount of their time is spent fighting them.

The original mainbook speaks of them as champions of the opressed and fighting evil...both instances the CS are given as an example.

They are in effect anti-CS. Doesn't mean that they have a vendetta against them, but they are in effect a CS enemy.

Doom is wrong once again.

[SkyeFyre]

RMB pg 63
"They will oppose injustice and evil in all it's forms, from demon or dragon to the Coalition or a fellow knight gone bad."...etc.

From what I get from that is they're against anything evil, not specifically the Coalition. Going down it says that the Coalition is against the cyber-knights but it does not say anything about it being the other way.

My conclusion... They are NOT anti-CS. The point goes to Doom.

EDIT: "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition." That's a rumor. It's a belief. Non confirmed. You can't make a point out of that.

Flawless Victory.

They are still anti-CS by association. They may not always fight the Coalition, but a large amount of their time is spent fighting them.

The original mainbook speaks of them as champions of the opressed and fighting evil...both instances the CS are given as an example.

They are in effect anti-CS. Doesn't mean that they have a vendetta against them, but they are in effect a CS enemy.

Doom is wrong once again.

They are in effect

In effect is much different than "They ARE". Your words leave clues of unsurity and undefinate thoughts.

Saying that just because they fight the evil that is the CS that they are anti-CS is like saying that you spend a lot of your time swatting mosquitoes that try to bite you. You must kill the vile creatures before they bite you. You are anti-mosquito! Yes! Down with the bugs.

Having to deal with a problem and actually being totally against it are two different things. When was the last time you had a down with groundhogs protest?

What you are doing is generalizing the statement. Men fight men daily. Is that to say that they are anti-man or anti-human? Just because one entangles with one particular group does not mean that they are automatically against it.

They can be enemies, but don't necessarily have to be anti-CS. Meaning that they are totally against the coalition in every way. They can simply cross paths often.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Skyefyre,

The opposing argument, that they haven't been Anti-CS is also based on "in effects."

I'd quote them, but just scroll up (or click the page and then scroll up, depending on what your sorting method is).

[SkyeFyre]

Touché

[Rimmerdal]

Ok this is gonna be dangerous but I am going to get between Doom and Josh and say that they are both "unright".

The RMB stats that it is "believed that the knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition."

However it does imply that due to CS corruption a lot of Cyber-knights come into conflict with them. But the official policy is to avoid the CS and concentrate on defending the weak and helpless.

Nyxlaa has a point..several other threats to humanity are there. the namesake of our own, Nyxla666, for one, The Sploogies, vampires, and others.

While the CS hates CK's they aren't the reason CK's came about. The CS is a glory hog and would rather save the world themselves. Hence, CK's view the CS as not enemies per say. I agree with Nyxla...

Besides I still have a few scars from Doom and KC from when I first posted...

[Guest]

Rim, I think your sig is too big, again.

LoL! OWNED!

ZOMG!


But yeah.

I did see hints of a Anti-CS lean to the Cyberknights, but I also saw speak of how they were something like frontier police, not just defending people against monsters, but protecting them from each other at times too.

Just to add though, I had SoT4, I got it just because I love Cyber Knights, while I did think it was a little silly to have it so biased against technology...

I noticed that you can simply replace every instance of "Technology Using Foe" with "Supernatural Monster" and all mentions of "Capacitors Charging" or "Targeting Sights Engaging" with "Spells being Cast" or "Monsters using their Natural Abilities."

And it all works beautifully as an Anti-SN Setup.

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, but I found a "Mistake" in the book last night... No changes were done to the Cyber Knights Zen combat ability...

This does not qualify as a mistake.

It qualifies as something you find distasteful, just as I'm sure they left the metal knobs in Crazy's heads (which is not a mistake per se, even though it irritates me to no end).

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually I don't think the CyberKnights need to be the Arch-Nemesis of the Coalition. Leave that to the Federation of Magic, Tolkeen Insurgents, and maybe New Lazlo in the Future? They are soooooo close to each other.

Huh.
We agree again.

Weird when that happens.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are a group of general do-gooders. Not devoted to opposing one piticular faction. If they had done it where they were just anti-SN, I'd complane too.

Agreed.

[Gomen_Nagai]

there are plenty of cyberknight replacements in later books. WHy Care about cyber knights...
Spirit Warriors, Psi sTalkers, psi knights, Royal knights, Death knights...

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok, but I found a "Mistake" in the book last night... No changes were done to the Cyber Knights Zen combat ability...

This does not qualify as a mistake.

It qualifies as something you find distasteful, just as I'm sure they left the metal knobs in Crazy's heads (which is not a mistake per se, even though it irritates me to no end).

oddly enough, Rain of Steel, there is now some flavor text to explain the "pop can" look.

[Braden Campbell]

How did they expalin that?

[Guest]

Wait, did I hear this correctly from z0b?

Crazies get Auto Dodge?

[Guest]

Wait, did I hear this correctly from z0b?

Crazies get Auto Dodge?

Yes, they do.

Kick ass.

Bout time us Psychos got some love...I mean...FLEAS!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Ok, but I found a "Mistake" in the book last night... No changes were done to the Cyber Knights Zen combat ability...

This does not qualify as a mistake.

It qualifies as something you find distasteful, just as I'm sure they left the metal knobs in Crazy's heads (which is not a mistake per se, even though it irritates me to no end).

It is a mistake given something else I said later on... Specifically when I said:

Now before you "rip me a new one," let me say this: I thought the point of Rifts Ultimate was to help get back the feel of the orignal rifts while providing a much needed update in back ground info and rules.

Also the SoT4 CK's are really only effective vs technology WHICH ISN'T HOW THEY WERE PRESENTED IN THE ORIGNAL BOOK. Which is why I said it was a mistake.

The Knights in SOT4 did not LOSE anything, they only GAINED abilities.

So how is it that they were more geared toward Anti-supernatural more in the original version if they did not lose anything in the transition?

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, but I found a "Mistake" in the book last night... No changes were done to the Cyber Knights Zen combat ability...

This does not qualify as a mistake.

It qualifies as something you find distasteful, just as I'm sure they left the metal knobs in Crazy's heads (which is not a mistake per se, even though it irritates me to no end).

oddly enough, Rain of Steel, there is now some flavor text to explain the "pop can" look.

Yeah, I saw that . . . <gripe, moan, groan />

I just received my URMB in the mail, and that was one of the first places I looked.

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, but I found a "Mistake" in the book last night... No changes were done to the Cyber Knights Zen combat ability...

This does not qualify as a mistake.

It qualifies as something you find distasteful, just as I'm sure they left the metal knobs in Crazy's heads (which is not a mistake per se, even though it irritates me to no end).

It is a mistake given something else I said later on... Specifically when I said:

Now before you "rip me a new one," let me say this: I thought the point of Rifts Ultimate was to help get back the feel of the orignal rifts while providing a much needed update in back ground info and rules.

Also the SoT4 CK's are really only effective vs technology WHICH ISN'T HOW THEY WERE PRESENTED IN THE ORIGNAL BOOK. Which is why I said it was a mistake.

That is not a mistake. A mistake would be for them to print something they hadn't intended on printing.* They've printed Cyber-Knight combat as anti-tech twice, so they obviously meant to. You don't like it. I can sympathize (I don't like knobby-boys).


Now a mistake would be like:

URMB P.115 col.1 "Note; Ley Line Phasing [...]"

Now that is a mistake. They used a semi-colon where a colon should be.



*Just because something in the URMB isn't as-it-was from the RMB does not make the change a mistake. (Although, as I mentioned, it may not be a pleasant change.)

[RainOfSteel]

How did they expalin that?

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away... er, I mean in North America was back in the early Dark Ages after the apocalypse, some kingdom/warlord raised a mighty army of Crazies to fight some terrible foe. This kingdom/warlord only had access to old outdated MOM technology which used over-sized (and more hazardous) implants.

Well the Crazy army won the day and they became famous along with their...head ornaments. So much so that many modern Crazies prefer to have large (and obvious) implants rather than the modern small (and hidden) variety, so people will know what they are.

Which basically boils down to this: small, unnoticable implants exist and if you hate the "knobby" ones you don't have to have them. But, generally-speaking, most Crazies go for the "stereo-type" because they want to get noticed.

That's nice to hear.

I'll have to read more of it (he says, having been holding the book for 40 minutes, posting madly at the same time).

[RainOfSteel]

Wait, did I hear this correctly from z0b?

Crazies get Auto Dodge?

Yes, they do.

And it appears to be better than the Juicer's Auto-Dodge, oddly enough.

[Guest]

Wait, did I hear this correctly from z0b?

Crazies get Auto Dodge?

Yes, they do.

And it appears to be better than the Juicer's Auto-Dodge, oddly enough.

Really?

Thats wild.

I may have to pick this book up if I can find it...been so long since I've held a Rifts book.

[Grand Paladin]

I have to say that I liked that KS cleaned up the psionics level for Cyber-Knights. And I was especially glad to see that a CK with "master" level psionics get good increases in their Psi-Sword power with level advancement.

[Killer Cyborg]

I brought this up to KS at GenCon.
I was talking about Rifts Ultimate and said that I hate the SoT-style Cyberknights, and he looked kind of hurt and said that they're really popular and that a lot of people like the new versions. I felt bad, but continued on and explained my reasoning:
"I think that the new ones are mostly popular just because they're so powerful. Personally, I thought that the original ones were plenty powerful as already if you just play them right."
This seemed to make him happier, and I went on and explained that I dislike that the "Cyber"knight is getting increasingly less cyber and that's what bugs me most.

[dark brandon]

They are still anti-CS by association. They may not always fight the Coalition, but a large amount of their time is spent fighting them.

The original mainbook speaks of them as champions of the opressed and fighting evil...both instances the CS are given as an example.

They are in effect anti-CS. Doesn't mean that they have a vendetta against them, but they are in effect a CS enemy.

Doom is wrong once again.

In The new book, and older book, they really only prevented injustice. They didn't spend alot of time fighting CS, which is why CS never concidered them "enemies". They were ignored. If CS and Cyberknights have too many run-ins CS would have put them on their hit list. (I think after SoT they did actually).

[TechnoGothic]

Hey RainOfSteel...

About the Updated Crazies...

If they are proud to be "Crazies" they go for the Tin-can look to frighten enemies and announce their Badassness to the world...

If they want to hide their nature from all, they get the micro-implants and keep their nature hidden. They might show off, but they keep their secret Secret...

"That MFer down the street, kicked our butt hard BIg Guy...Show him who is boss"
Big Guy a Juicer walks down the street and finds the runt...
"Hey you RUNT, you kicked my boys butts huh, no way..."
Big Guy attacks the runt. After the Fight, Big Guy is on the ground...
"No way a runt like that can beat me"
Staggars back down to one knee
"You, what the &^%$ are you ?"
-"What am I ? You just Danced in the Pale Moon Light with your KILLER"
E-clip is emptied point blank
Everyone around tells the tale of the Little Warrior who took on a Juicer and won...

[DhAkael]

I have not picked up a copy of R:U yet for a number of reasons.
-Primary is cost expendature Vs. use of book; my gaming crew has amscrayed to the four winds for many reasons, and I can not justify the immediate lay-out of $43+ dollars (Cn.) for what will ammount to a paper weight. When I get my crew back or scrounge up another, then I'll considder replacing my battered 1st Ed. FIRST PRINTING RMB...which, with all its typos is still my fave book.
-Random numbers being juggled around to "ballance'" the game. Um...let me get back to you on that one. I only had 20 mins to flip through, and I was confused by the whole upgrade for Pwr. armour & robot bonuses. I pretty much liked how they were orginaly and saw no imballances with RMB's .
-The whole "add in middle of book". I do NOT care about the excuses given. . It was WRONG wrong wrong wrong. Especialy in the limmited Ed. print! Bad bad bad
-Typo's. 'nuff said. You want to release an ultimate book? Proof-read and edit as many times as it takes. Comming from a long time player and purchaser of Palladium Books products, saying "Take your time and get it to us when it's ready." is major signal! I've holwed loud and long over delayed books in the past, but in this case I was more than willing to wait.

Aside from all these negative points, I DO like the new layout, and thought the "flow" of the new book was much smoother than the RMB. Plus having costs for essentail but non-combat items (likes belts, boots, flashlights, etc), and for ammo, was very welcome (no more on-the-fly calculations or conversions of price).

So again, when I am actively playing / running Rifts again, I'll give the R:U a shot, but for now, I'll let others play-test and rant. Who knows...on the next print run PBooks might actulay get rid of the darned add!

[Sureshot]

For me it's not some much the ad but the number of errors in the book. Way too many imo. I would usually overlook them in any other product but imo in UR they should not have been there or at the very least kept to a minimum.

As it stands unless I see some errata in the cutting room floor for UR or a corrected second printitng. I most likely will not be getting it right away. Or if I do I will get it used. Otherwise not too bad of a book.

[Daniel Stoker]

I am posting a new thing here.

I have had the book since Friday, overall an improvement, but there are some things that just do not make sense to me.

Numbers. I do not understand the numbers used for bonues. Let me show you....

The Line Walker has been described as one of the best spellcasters.
Page 116 O.C.C. Bonuses +1 spell strength at levels 3, 7, 10, and 13

Now, lets check out the Mystic
Page 119 O.C.C. Bonuses +1 spell strength at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12.

HUh? Am I the only one that sees this as not right? Should the Line Walker not have the better spell strength progression? I seem to recall that the Line Walker and Shifter both being described as some of the best spellcasters around, and yet, the Mystic is actually more powerful with spells.

I don't get it.

I always considered the fact that they can learn new spells at any time as well as at each new level they were the master of spells.




Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 286 of UR, first column, second to last paragraph titled, "Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons".
It states that a being with supernatural strength either does the damage of the weapon being wielded or the PS damage as per thier Supernatural Strength. Which ever is higher. If he is referring to a punch and not base damage, then the rule basically states that a being with Supernatural Strength is better of not using any weapons at all if the weapons are less damaging then not using the weapons and just using fists. Any smart player wouldn't waste thier time dealing with hand to hand weapons in the first place because even though thier charachter has Supernatural Strength they can't do any better with it than any regular shmo who has only normal human strength. How dum is that! True, there are some magical weapons that could do like 1D4 x10 MDC, but thats usually mute due to the rarity of having such a weapon. For the most part if a charachter has a SNPS of 32 or more, they would just be better off most of the time not even using a weapon and just thier bare hands. If its not the punch damage and is the base ps bonus, then your stuck using a set amount that would not help much, later in higher level sessions with the rare exception of critical hits.
I say this rule is stupid, and needs to be reworked. I believe that one should add there ps damage bonus to the weapon damage so that its consistent with doing so on a sdc level with sdc weapons. I understand the need to maintane balance by not allowing for ps bonus damage to md damaging punches while having supernatural strength, but I don't think it should be applied to using weapons as well since the effectivness like I said above is useless. JMO.

You are completely correct that it isn't logical for somebody/thing with supernatural strength to inflict the same damage with a vibro sword that a normal person would.
But Supernatural Strength isn't logical in the first place.

[demos606]

Page 286 of UR, first column, second to last paragraph titled, "Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons".
It states that a being with supernatural strength either does the damage of the weapon being wielded or the PS damage as per thier Supernatural Strength. Which ever is higher. If he is referring to a punch and not base damage, then the rule basically states that a being with Supernatural Strength is better of not using any weapons at all if the weapons are less damaging then not using the weapons and just using fists. Any smart player wouldn't waste thier time dealing with hand to hand weapons in the first place because even though thier charachter has Supernatural Strength they can't do any better with it than any regular shmo who has only normal human strength. How dum is that! True, there are some magical weapons that could do like 1D4 x10 MDC, but thats usually mute due to the rarity of having such a weapon. For the most part if a charachter has a SNPS of 32 or more, they would just be better off most of the time not even using a weapon and just thier bare hands. If its not the punch damage and is the base ps bonus, then your stuck using a set amount that would not help much, later in higher level sessions with the rare exception of critical hits.
I say this rule is stupid, and needs to be reworked. I believe that one should add there ps damage bonus to the weapon damage so that its consistent with doing so on a sdc level with sdc weapons. I understand the need to maintane balance by not allowing for ps bonus damage to md damaging punches while having supernatural strength, but I don't think it should be applied to using weapons as well since the effectivness like I said above is useless. JMO.

You are completely correct that it isn't logical for somebody/thing with supernatural strength to inflict the same damage with a vibro sword that a normal person would.
But Supernatural Strength isn't logical in the first place.

Well, you are right in that a high PS SN creature does more damage than almost every melee weapon in existance. However, there are reasons to still use some melee weapons for their secondary bonuses - extra strike bonus from WP, secondary damage effect (acid damage for a few rounds anyone?), and parrying just to name a few. Parrying in particular is a pretty compelling reason to still have a weapon inhand despite the higher punch damage. Plus you have something of a shock factor - "Oh he's just holding a small knife, I've got the advantage with my <instert favorite weapon here>" turns into "OUCH!" real fast when you can get your players to underestimate an opponent.

Also, this has been around for 10 months now - Splicers, BtS2 and the latest GMG all have this.

[Guest]

Yeah, don't start the SN P.S. not stacking argument.

It's been beaten to death, suffice to say most of us find it utterly and completely ridiculous, but they have some cockamamy justification for it (like it would break the weapon...but what about indestructible weapons?).

Then I start to wonder, why do so many big bad giants and dragons and demons and stuff have melee weapons, and why do so many of them list P.S. Damage Bonuses with their weapons, though they have SN P.S.?

[Killer Cyborg]

Just because the rules is there, does not mean you absolteuly have to use it..

Seriously, do you REALLY think that this is news to ANYBODY here!?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, don't start the SN P.S. not stacking argument.

It's been beaten to death, suffice to say most of us find it utterly and completely ridiculous, but they have some cockamamy justification for it (like it would break the weapon...but what about indestructible weapons?).

Then I start to wonder, why do so many big bad giants and dragons and demons and stuff have melee weapons, and why do so many of them list P.S. Damage Bonuses with their weapons, though they have SN P.S.?

Because it used to stack.
Now it doesn't because stacking supernatural PS with MD melee weapons was a staple in munchkinism and they wanted to balance things out.

[Gomen_Nagai]

and I blame the RRL for the rule change.. and the introduction and later retraction of the -10 to dodge.... Needless to say House rules will be the rule not the Option when everyone plays rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

and I blame the RRL for the rule change.. and the introduction and later retraction of the -10 to dodge.... Needless to say House rules will be the rule not the Option when everyone plays rifts.

I hate to ask, but what's "RRL"...?

[Gomen_Nagai]

reverse Rules lawyers. New people who come around and re-interpret an existing rule in a complete contrary way. .. sorta like how people come about and say the constitution is being re-written all the time..

[DhAkael]

Long to short answer for this entire thread / post:
[MODERATED -Please adhere to the RUE posting rules. - Mack]
-There is no possible way everyone will be happy with a rules-set, no matter how it is written & re-written.
-House rules WILL be the only way for any ONE group to be able to play the game, but note to the GM & players...make damn sure the house rules are written down and remain consistant .
-SpNPS has been, and always will be, a sticky point (and for the record, I've always played it; Weapon damage + normal punch= total dice...no PS bonus, just the straight punch for the SnPS stat ). Yes you may call "munchkin" on this point, but I really don't care, since it's worked for over ten years among my gaming crews

[DhAkael]

[quote="DhAkael"]Long to short answer for this entire thread / post:
[MODERATED -Please adhere to the RUE posting rules. - Mack]

--ahem--
Yes...quite... I'll keep my comments about "our lord" to the PB-Chat then.
My bad
But then again I never read any of the manifestos, so I appologise for ignorance of the "rules of fair play".
Shant happen again...at least I think it won't

[TechnoGothic]

As for MD Melee Weapons i do this :

Weapon MD Damage + Any MD Damage from HtH PS (if any)

So a A Juicer who can inflict an MD Power Punch could use his Vibro-Sword in a Power Swing attack to inflict Weapon MD Damage + his Power Punch damage...2d6MD +1MD usually...
Not much mind you like this but its worth it...

A Titan Juicer with with SN-PS would do 2d6MD + SN-PS MD Damage with his attacks...

Normal PS Human would do just the 2d6 MD of the weapon...simple

See...i just ignore dumb rules and use Logic

[DhAkael]

As for MD Melee Weapons i do this :

Weapon MD Damage + Any MD Damage from HtH PS (if any)

So a A Juicer who can inflict an MD Power Punch could use his Vibro-Sword in a Power Swing attack to inflict Weapon MD Damage + his Power Punch damage...2d6MD +1MD usually...
Not much mind you like this but its worth it...

A Titan Juicer with with SN-PS would do 2d6MD + SN-PS MD Damage with his attacks...

Normal PS Human would do just the 2d6 MD of the weapon...simple

See...i just ignore dumb rules and use Logic

Gods and goddesess bless ya TG! At last, another person who doesn't take "The Word" printed in the books as cannon, and actualy uses their brain to come to logical conclusions! YAY!

[SirTenzan]

I guess I hadn't noticed that little 'new' rule regarding SN PS damage vs. weapon damage, one or the other, not both.

Here's what our group does with HtH damages;

Human/Superhuman characters: Without weapons: Standard S.D.C. damages for attacks, such as punch of 1D4, Elbow 1D6, etc. PLUS PS/HtH training damage bonus. With weapons, it depends on the weapon. A conventional Katana, with no magics or anything, standard damage as per the Ancient Weapons Compendium - which I believe is 3D6 S.D.C. plus P.S. bonus damage. For a Vibro-Sabre it inflicts 2D4 M.D. straight up, but against an S.D.C. structure it does 2D4x100+PS/HtH training damage bonus.

Supernatural characters/villains: We almost exclusively follow the Supernatural PS damage chart for damages, often ignoring specific listings of damages under the various races. After all a Hatchling with a PS of 20 as opposed to one with a PS of 40 is NOT going to inflict the same amount of damage. Unlike most groups we DO use the P.S. damage bonus for M.D. damage. When using a weapon though we use the damage of the weapon in place of the 'punch' damage, IF the weapon's damaging capabilities exceed that of the SN creature's punch, otherwise the punch damage is used.

In the case of both conventional and supernatural creatures though, in using weapons, weapons can and do often break. If a supernatural creature is weilding a Vibro-Sword then, there's a GOOD chance it's going to snap or even shatter when used to strike a target. Vibro-Swords only have in the neighborhood of 25 M.D.C. if memory serves correctly. A powerful human character could also snap their S.D.C. sword by striking an enemy with a heavy strike, because they only have in the neighborhood of 100 S.D.C. If the human somehow, through crits, leap attacks, and other modifiers inflicts more than 100 S.D.C. against a target that has more than 100 S.D.C. - that sword is going to snap or shatter completely. (There's nothing more impressive than seeing a dragon swing a log at a vampire, and have the log explode on impact! Can anyone say ... FOUR!!) Similarly when parrying attacks, weapons can crack, snap, or shatter when parrying an action that would inflict more damage than the parrying weapon possesses. I will never forget the time that a player got all bent out of shape when he used his Naruni rifle to parry a psi-sword stroke, and it cut the weapon in half and still hit him in the breastplate for a few points of damage.

We've used this system since clear back in '93 when we started up this new game world, and it works just fine for our group. True, we have a couple of SNs in our group, but not everyone in it is - the two oldest player characters are completely human. Primarily it helps out the villains who often have SN strength - thereby making them a little more deadly in the eyes of the player characters.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for MD Melee Weapons i do this :

Weapon MD Damage + Any MD Damage from HtH PS (if any)

So a A Juicer who can inflict an MD Power Punch could use his Vibro-Sword in a Power Swing attack to inflict Weapon MD Damage + his Power Punch damage...2d6MD +1MD usually...
Not much mind you like this but its worth it...

A Titan Juicer with with SN-PS would do 2d6MD + SN-PS MD Damage with his attacks...

Normal PS Human would do just the 2d6 MD of the weapon...simple

See...i just ignore dumb rules and use Logic

Logic would indicate that a normal person who can lift 500 lbs would do more damage on a punch than a pixie who can only lift 60 lbs.

[Shiva7]

I created a unified PS chart, all PS becomes x10/x20 for carry/lift respectively. PS conversion works as follows.

Use standard PS carrying capacity/10 for Unified PS, or take standard punch damage and cross reference chart below. The new PS/dmg level determines carry/lift and damage.

___PS___|_DMG___ __ _ _
__1 - 3 ___ 1 SDC
__4 - 6 ___ 2 SDC
__7 - 12 __ 1D4 SDC
. 13 - 16 __ 1D6 SDC
. 17 - 19 __ 2D4 SDC
. 20 - 24 __ 2D6 SDC
. 25 - 28 __ 3D6 SDC
. 29 - 31 __ 4D6 SDC
. 32 - 35 __ 5D6 SDC
. 36 - 42 __ 1D4x10 SDC
. 43 - 49 __ 1D6x10 SDC
. 50 - 57 __ 2D4x10 SDC
. 58 - 69 __ 2D6x10 SDC
. 70 - 80 __ 3D6x10 SDC
. 81 - 90 __ 4D6x10 SDC
. 91 - 101 _ 5D6x10 SDC
102 - 118 _ 1D4 MD
119 - 138 _ 1D6 MD
139 - 161 _ 2D4 MD
162 - 193 _ 2D6 MD
194 - 225 _ 3D6 MD
226 - 252 _ 4D6 MD
253 - 282 _ 5D6 MD
283 - 330 _ 1D4x10 MD
331 - 384 _ 1D6x10 MD
385 - 448 _ 2D4x10 MD
449 - 537 _ 2D6x10 MD
538 - 625 _ 3D6x10 MD

[Shiva7]

Now, my only problem with that was that I rather liked the idea of Human/Augmented, Robot/Supernatural - not necessarily those /labels/, but that there was a kind of strength optimised for feats of strength (lifting, throwing, etc) and a kind for fast, power-moves - the damage bonus kind... and that Supernatural critters were damaging outside their 'weight class' so to speak because of the 'otherworldly' or 'magical' or 'disruptive' nature of their blows... 'course, I also sat down and worked out how to get actual use out of Chipwell Arms battlesuits, so I may have too much free time on my hands. ^_^

I personally find seperate strength categories cumbersome and a source of many illogical rules and flat out contradictory infomation. There is no consistency between categories.

If you check the official tabled, a Robot can do more damage on a punch compared to a supernatural creature of equal carry/lift capacity.