Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Killer Cyborg]

Many need to learn that the games are visions of Kevin Siembieda. They're not candy coated or specially tailored for everyone or certain people. What he prints is his own vision. At least he's a guy who will say 'Alter my vision to suit your needs'. He could be unyielding and say 'It must be as printed or it is wrong.'

Sadly, I see more people complain about Rifts because it doesn't suit THEM. Myself, I have found very little wrong with Rifts and enjoy it (and other Palladium games).

Most of my complaints about Rifts come from the authors themselves ignoring stuff that Kevin Siembieda himself has written.
Kev's original vision of Rifts did not include Japan, for example.
Stuff from Carella and other authors sometimes fit with Kev's vision, sometimes not.

[MADMANMIKE]

...Kev's original vision of Rifts did not include Japan, for example.....

..I disagree with this. The only way I can assume you came to this conclusion is the reference to Japan being a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands". But the fact is, that is an expert from an Erin Tarn book, presented for the eyes of players who's characters are from America, and as such would not know what happened there.

..The fact is, Kevin didn't address what was going on in the world outside the midwest in Rifts MB, but instead addressed what the characters from that book are likely to believe.

..That in no way contradicts any other books he's written afterwards. Likewise, on the subject of Japan, he didn't leave any backdoors to it from America, but instead left it the isolated self-contained (for the most part) setting that it is; Sure, long treacherous journeys could take a character there or vice-versa, but for the most part, it's a stand-alone.

..I've always respected your opinions on the game here, but this one I had to call you on, as it seems to me a common misconception.

-Mike >8]

[Killer Cyborg]

...Kev's original vision of Rifts did not include Japan, for example.....

..I disagree with this. The only way I can assume you came to this conclusion is the reference to Japan being a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands". But the fact is, that is an expert from an Erin Tarn book, presented for the eyes of players who's characters are from America, and as such would not know what happened there.

..The fact is, Kevin didn't address what was going on in the world outside the midwest in Rifts MB, but instead addressed what the characters from that book are likely to believe.

..That in no way contradicts any other books he's written afterwards. Likewise, on the subject of Japan, he didn't leave any backdoors to it from America, but instead left it the isolated self-contained (for the most part) setting that it is; Sure, long treacherous journeys could take a character there or vice-versa, but for the most part, it's a stand-alone.

..I've always respected your opinions on the game here, but this one I had to call you on, as it seems to me a common misconception.

-Mike >8]

Which is more likely:
1. Kevin Siembieda deliberately lied to the readers through Erin Tarn, intending to describe Japan's high-tech civilization in the sole Rifts Worldbook originally planned, even though he mentioned in the main book a large number of interesting places that seem more likely to have been intended to occupy the book. He then forgot about this intention for a number of years until somebody else wrote the book and submitted it to him.
2. The reason why Erin Tarn described Japan as being destroyed (not "rumored to have ben destroyed", mind you) was because it actually was originally supposed to have been destroyed (a rather original vision of the future considering Japan's extreme influence in most cyberpunk-type settings). Rifts turned out to be much more popular than originally anticipated (which it was), and when somebody proposed the Rifts: Japan book, Kev shrugged and gave it the OK.

Personally, I have to opt for #2... since there is no evidence for the first theory and it seems to be quite a bit of a stretch at best.

[Daniel Stoker]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

i'll choose number #3

[MADMANMIKE]

Which is more likely:
1. Kevin Siembieda deliberately lied to the readers through Erin Tarn,

..That's a pretty assinine interpretation of what I wrote above. Reread it and reconsider. Erin Tarn had never been to Japan, so there's no reason to assume she'd have anything but rumors and conjecture at her disposal for that info. Likewise the fact that she refused to authorise the book in question leaves open the possibility that she never wrote a suposition on the status of Japan, but rather it was added by the actual publishers of said fictional book.

..To suggest that Kev lied through Erin Tarn is to suggest that he didn't leave the "disclaimer" of Erin not authorizing the book in the beginning of the section. It makes sense to believe that what is in the main book is there for the mindset of the players of characters from the main book, and quite simply, any characters from America would only have the Traversing Our Modern World as a source of info on the rest of the world.

..You insult me by suggesting that I would suggest that Kev was a liar, and that my suggesting such is the way I validate my interpretation of the book. I did not insult you, I only shed light on your misconceptions of the book. Granted, you now apparently put too much faith in your original interpretation of that book, but that doesn't excuse the insult.

.. since there is no evidence for the first theory and it seems to be quite a bit of a stretch at best.

..That makes no sense.

-Mike

[MADMANMIKE]

Which is more likely:
1. Kevin Siembieda deliberately lied to the readers through Erin Tarn,

..That's a pretty assinine interpretation of what I wrote above. Reread it and reconsider. Erin Tarn had never been to Japan, so there's no reason to assume she'd have anything but rumors and conjecture at her disposal for that info. Likewise the fact that she refused to authorise the book in question leaves open the possibility that she never wrote a suposition on the status of Japan, but rather it was added by the actual publishers of said fictional book.

..To suggest that Kev lied through Erin Tarn is to suggest that he didn't leave the "disclaimer" of Erin not authorizing the book in the beginning of the section. It makes sense to believe that what is in the main book is there for the mindset of the players of characters from the main book, and quite simply, any characters from America would only have the Traversing Our Modern World as a source of info on the rest of the world.

..You insult me by suggesting that I would suggest that Kev was a liar, and that my suggesting such is the way I validate my interpretation of the book. I did not insult you, I only shed light on your misconceptions of the book. Granted, you now apparently put too much faith in your original interpretation of that book, but that doesn't excuse the insult.

.. since there is no evidence for the first theory and it seems to be quite a bit of a stretch at best.

..That makes no sense.

-Mike

Umm.. He wasn't making an assertion. KC was posing two hypotheticals and he said that the first was dubious. "Which is more likely:" needs to be read with a "?" at the end. At any rate I would have to go with business needs overruling internal constancy.

..And his first was a misinterpretation of what I said, which wasn't dubious before his warping of it.

..And the point of said misinterpreted post was that there is no inconsistancy present. My post was a logical explanation of his misconception of said consistancy issues.

-Mike

[Killer Cyborg]

Which is more likely:
1. Kevin Siembieda deliberately lied to the readers through Erin Tarn,

..That's a pretty assinine interpretation of what I wrote above. Reread it and reconsider.

1. Be nice.
2. If you weren't saying that Kevin deliberately misled the readers by stating flat-out (through Erin Tarn) that Japan was destroyed, what were you saying?

Erin Tarn had never been to Japan, so there's no reason to assume she'd have anything but rumors and conjecture at her disposal for that info.

I'm discussing page 152 of the Rifts book.
All it says is:
"Japan was besieged by tidal waves and volcanic activity that toppled its great cities and killed millions. today it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."

You'll have to point out to me where it says that Erin Tarn has never been there.

Erin Tarn is pretty careful about noting when she is reporting rumors:
p. 137 "Although I have never travelled that far North, I have it on good authority that...."
"I have personally seen xiticix insect warriors as far north as Hudson Bay in Manitoba and I'm told their scouts have been seen...."
"I tend to agree with the stories that..."

p. 138
"I've never been more than a few miles beyond the Rio Grande so my knowledge is limited..."
"Rumors about seething ley lines and kingdoms of vampires..."
"This is common knowledge to all who live in the area..."
"We have all heard about roving gangs..."
"The cities offer the greatest luxory and the greatest numbers of vampires; I am told..."
"Believe it or not, I am told this has been..."

p. 139
"I was told a convincing story of how..."
"I've heard similar tales from third parties..."
"I've heard the same to be said of..."
"Cyber-knights are known to roam these lands, for many are the tales of their valor..."

p. 140
"I'm told the present waiting period is six years..."
"Sadly, I understand that 20% die of disease..."

p. 141
"Beyond this is the Imperial Sanctum, several (I'm told five) subterranean levels..."
"I am told that the Imperial Sanctum is..."

p. 142
"Kingsdale is reputed to be a manufacturer of juicers..."

p. 144
"The Indian Mound Nexus is reputed to be..."
"Several ley line walkers I have spoken to believe that the Arch was delibrately constructed..."
"My travels in this land are limited, but..."
"Most are said to be..."

p. 145
"Most estimates put their numbers at..."
"It is said that he travels the dimensions..."
"As the Federation of Magic tells the tale..."
"Psyscape is a community of psychics also said to be located..."
"As to the location, I am told..."

p. 146
"I know scavengers who claim..."

p. 147
"is regarded as a haunted graveyard..."
"I've also heard tales..."

p. 148
"... but I can not personally substantiate thise rumor."
"I have heard tell of excavations that..."
"I've also heard rumors.."

p. 149
"I have heard consistent rumors of a mgic kingdom known as Shaedo..."
"(Kee-thh is the name I've heard)"
"... but have no evidence to support its existence..."

p. 151
"Atlantis is suspected..."
"Most seem to believe..."
"To my knowledge, nobody really knows."
"The continent is said to be inhabited by..."
"What I have heard is that..."

Reread that Japan description again.
Erin Tarn says that Japan was destroyed. Kevin Siembieda (writing as Erin Tarn) does NOT include ANY qualifying statements like the ones above.

Kevin did, when writing Rifts, leave a lot open to future development and to the reader's imagination. This is clearly done by making Erin Tarn's description vague at times, and making it rely on rumors at times.
The Japan description is NOT one of those times.
The description is stated flat-out, as matter-of-fact as the location of Chi-Town.
India is "rumored to be inhabited by savage, cannibalistic D-Bees."
China is "reputed to be a mystic play ground for demons and supernatural monsters."
In the land of the Nile and Egypt, "It is said one of the largest and most powerful ley line nexus points/rifts is located..."
And Japan "is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."

Likewise the fact that she refused to authorise the book in question leaves open the possibility that she never wrote a suposition on the status of Japan, but rather it was added by the actual publishers of said fictional book.

Or, more likely, Kevin originally pictured Japan as being destroyed and later changed his mind.
Isn't that more likely than him plotting out intricate and insignificant details like that into a gameworld that he never thought he'd get to fully develop...?

..To suggest that Kev lied through Erin Tarn is to suggest that he didn't leave the "disclaimer" of Erin not authorizing the book in the beginning of the section. It makes sense to believe that what is in the main book is there for the mindset of the players of characters from the main book, and quite simply, any characters from America would only have the Traversing Our Modern World as a source of info on the rest of the world.

I don't buy it.
P. 137
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."
If that's a disclaimer, and not a bit of random flavor text showing Erin Tarn's meticulous nature, then it's there to keep people from asking "What about all those places not specifically mentioned...?"
Not so that Kev could go back on the solid descriptions of the world that Erin Tarn gives.
He was extremely careful to say when she was passing on rumors, and this just wasn't the case with Japan.

..You insult me by suggesting that I would suggest that Kev was a liar, and that my suggesting such is the way I validate my interpretation of the book. I did not insult you, I only shed light on your misconceptions of the book. Granted, you now apparently put too much faith in your original interpretation of that book, but that doesn't excuse the insult.

No insult was intended.
I pointed out that KS originally intended that Japan was destroyed.
You claimed that this was not the case.
Therefore, your claim is that KS originally DID intend for Japan to be part of Rifts.
This conflicts directly with the way Kevin (through Tarn) portrayed things.
Therefore your claim is that Kevin originally intended for Japan to be a part of Rifts Earth, yet he deliberately wrote a misleading description of things in the book.
Sounds like a lie to me.

.. since there is no evidence for the first theory and it seems to be quite a bit of a stretch at best.

..That makes no sense.

-Mike

What evidence do you have that Kev originally intended Japan to be a part of Rifts Earth?
Why would he write (as Tarn or not) that Japan had been destroyed if that was contrary to his vision of things?
You've stated your opinion, now back it up as I have backed up my own view.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, after making that last post, I recalled that this thread isn't titled "Let's Debate Rifts Japan" and that we're getting off topic.

Is it in the Mods' power to move our Japan debate to a new thread..?

[Guest]

You mean like that?

[cornholioprime]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

I'll chose Number Three as well.

Kevin CLEARLY wanted the Readers to get the impression that even Erin Tarn can speak out declaratively, from time to time, on Subjects and Persons and Places she has no actual Knowledge about.

.............


This is the Lady that will swear up and down on a stack of Bibles that the Splugorth Slavers ARE the Splugorth, remember???

[Kalinda]

I'll go with occam's razor on this one, it seems more reasonable to assume that KS didn't intend to develop Japan as a worldbook and later changed his mind. Heck, when the RMB was written he didn't know if it was going to sell well enough to support more then a few sourcebooks and world books, later on when Rifts was a great success a script came across his desk and he changed his mind, no big deal.

If KS was infallible and able to anticipate everything before it happened, we wouldn't be stuck with the current magic system and he would have done a better job with SoT.

[Killer Cyborg]

You mean like that?

You da man!

[Killer Cyborg]

later on when Rifts was a great success a script came across his desk and he changed his mind, no big deal.

Exactly.
Sure, it's a big deal to me and I think that one of the main problems with Rifts is that the later books drastically change the feel from the original game... and that a good part of this is because later authors ignore the original books.
But hey... if you like Rifts Japan, then you like it. Use it.
I don't like it and even I've gotten some use out of it (if only in updating The Foot Clan for Rifts).

But whether you like that he changed his mind or not, the simple fact is that he did change it.

[cornholioprime]

I'm discussing page 152 of the Rifts book.
All it says is:
"Japan was besieged by tidal waves and volcanic activity that toppled its great cities and killed millions. today it is a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands."

1. That Statement IN NO WAY says that ALL of the people were killed, or even a great majority of them (doesn't even modern day Japan have approximately as many people on its Islands as the United States??). To date, in the Rifts Game Setting, the ONLY place on Earth said to be COMPLETELY devoided of Human Life is the Phillipines (Korea also, but Humans came back later); and the Authors clearly made the case there.

Sorry, but "quiet Cluster of Wilderness Islands" just isn't the same as "Humans: Zero."

2. Page 152 of the Rifts Main Book is ALSO presented through the (flawed) eyes of Erin Tarn, not the 'faultless' eyes of "God" -Kevin Siembieda and Co.

3, Again, there is NO evidence whatsoever that rin tarn has EVER been there; as I recall, there aren't even any Rifts that go there.

One is forced to strongly consider that she is going on hearsay about Japan. But whose???

Beats me.

I, personally, can't see any major contradiction between the RMB and Rifts: Japan.....

[Killer Cyborg]

This is the Lady that will swear up and down on a stack of Bibles that the Splugorth Slavers ARE the Splugorth, remember???

Well, I don't know about swearing on Bibles, but she certainly did say that the slavers were the actual Splugorth.
On the other hand, I think that they were originally intended to be... then things were later rethought.
The Rifts book section on Atlantis is pretty vague all around though, so I could see Kev slipping that in to deliberately mislead people.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

[cornholioprime]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry, but "quiet Cluster of Wilderness Islands" just isn't the same as "Humans: Zero."

Never said it was.

2. Page 152 of the Rifts Main Book is ALSO presented through the (flawed) eyes of Erin Tarn, not the 'faultless' eyes of "God" -Kevin Siembieda and Co.

And why would Kev write that Japan was destroyed if that wasn't his vision?

3, Again, there is NO evidence whatsoever that rin tarn has EVER been there; as I recall, there aren't even any Rifts that go there.

There is certainly no evidence that she has NOT been there.
She generally mentions (as I have quoted) when she is relying on rumor or when she hasn't personally visited a place.

One is forced to strongly consider that she is going on hearsay about Japan. But whose???

Beats me.

It would have to be somebody that she trusted implicitely. Everywhere that she is unsure of the information, she says so.
Or she went there herself.

I, personally, can't see any major contradiction between the RMB and Rifts: Japan.....

The pre-Rifts city probably popped up after her visit, sure.
But from what I recall there was plenty of stuff going on in Japan outside of that. Stuff that would have merrited some sort of comment ("If you travel to Japan, go in the fall... the Samurai are lovely that time of year...").

[Kalinda]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

[cornholioprime]

On pg. 16 of RUE, Ms. Tarn states that she did not personally visit Japan but she HEARD conflicting reports while in Russia. The Russian warlords also didn't tell her much about what was going down in China (which is two paragraphs above her entry on Japan) other than that there are about twelve Yama Kings, they're demonic gods, and that they most certainly didn't come Earth to throw a block party.
Yet Mr. Siembieda wrote or otherwise had a hand in a combined total of four books on both areas.

That should just about put this particular puppy to rest....

[Dr. Doom III]

2. The reason why Erin Tarn described Japan as being destroyed (not "rumored to have ben destroyed", mind you) was because it actually was originally supposed to have been destroyed (a rather original vision of the future considering Japan's extreme influence in most cyberpunk-type settings). Rifts turned out to be much more popular than originally anticipated (which it was), and when somebody proposed the Rifts: Japan book, Kev shrugged and gave it the OK.

Japan was destroyed.

Then it was rebuilt.

[LunarYoma]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

i would have to go wit this

[Mech-Viper Prime]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

[cornholioprime]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

No need to "get" me.

I am aware that SOMETHING "existed" prior to Rifts, and the early publication dates listed in the Main Book don't really mean Rifts, but material in parts of it.........

I just don't know what it may have been called then. Or even if was AVAILABLE to be purchased by the Average (Gaming) Joe, as opposed to being a series of Ideas that Kev simply wanted to copyright for possible later use.

Was it called GURPS??

[Mech-Viper Prime]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

No need to "get" me.

I am aware that SOMETHING "existed" prior to Rifts, and the early publication dates listed in the Main Book don't really mean Rifts, but material in parts of it.........

I just don't know what it may have been called then. Or even if was AVAILABLE to be purchased by the Average (Gaming) Joe, as opposed to being a series of Ideas that Kev simply wanted to copyright for possible later use.

Was it called GURPS??

dont know was it?

[Gomen_Nagai]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

No need to "get" me.

I am aware that SOMETHING "existed" prior to Rifts, and the early publication dates listed in the Main Book don't really mean Rifts, but material in parts of it.........

I just don't know what it may have been called then. Or even if was AVAILABLE to be purchased by the Average (Gaming) Joe, as opposed to being a series of Ideas that Kev simply wanted to copyright for possible later use.

Was it called GURPS??

Mechanoids was released 1983. Rifts was released 1989.

[ApocalypseZero]

I'm glad I could be a spark to light this little fire, but I think it's time to add more fuel.

What was written in the RMB was to give everyone an idea about the rest of the world. At the time, it was official, but now, it's more what people in America would know about the other parts of the world. Would it have been better if he gave no clue about Japan at all? Then you'd all be yelling about a LACK of information. Alos, everything written in the 'eyes of Erin Tarn' are subject to change. Tarn's words are to give an In-Game Perspective of what the world is like.

And for the bit of fuel, what about China? You know, the 'Dragon's Playground'.

Does Kevin need to start placing a disclaimer before Tarn's words now? "Warning, anything said by Erin Tarn is subject to change, and void in Rhode Island, because everything is void in Rhode Island."

Live and let live people.

[Zer0 Kay]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

Oh MY GOD not have a NPC play in character!!! When did she go to Japan? When has anyone come from anywhere near Japan to report their findings? Wow I vote for 3 or MadMike... but they seem pretty much the same.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Originally Japan was a clump of wilderness islands without much there. IF (which is circumspect) Erin Tarn visited Japan in the original vision of Rifts she saw just that. Also judging by her other travels and text in the original main book (and logic) she would have not made said travel (IF she made...she most likely never visited Japan) recently.

However, the Tech-Cities were Rifted in around 87 P.A., most likely LONG after Tarn hypothetically set foot on the islands and thus news of them would have not reached Erin Tarn in America, let alone someone in Eurasia that could help pass the message along.

~ Josh

[Zer0 Kay]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

i'll choose number #3

Hey... dang too late. WE can't agree and I chose 3 too. OK I'll change mine to MadmanMikes which would be #0

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

People also seem to forget that Traversing Our Modern World was an unauthorized book compiled by a third party without Tarn's permission. It was this way even in the original main book.

So, technically, we have no way of knowing if the blurb on Japan is actually Tarn's words at all. For all we know it could have been the anonymous compiler's words which may have no scholarly backing whatsoever.

And thus the blurb could hold no weight whatsoever.

~ Josh

[Zer0 Kay]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

Careful he bites.

[Zer0 Kay]

man people make it sound like he did the rmb then the next week did rifts japan , last time i check rifts japan was done 5 yrs after rmb.


As for the harlot Erin Tarn giving misinformation about it but look at what was in the rmb and compare it to the world books of the areas

I don't know about it JUST being five years, though.

Rifts has a 1st Printing Date of 1983; Rifts: Japan has a first Printing Date of 1995.

You're confusing the copyright dates for some of the older material with the publishing date. Rifts came out in august of 1990 at gen-con. The first Rifts GM I had bought his copy there and ran it for us two weeks later at school.

and here i was going to get him good, but like a good puppy there you are , a box of milk bones for you

No need to "get" me.

I am aware that SOMETHING "existed" prior to Rifts, and the early publication dates listed in the Main Book don't really mean Rifts, but material in parts of it.........

I just don't know what it may have been called then. Or even if was AVAILABLE to be purchased by the Average (Gaming) Joe, as opposed to being a series of Ideas that Kev simply wanted to copyright for possible later use.

Was it called GURPS??

Was it called GURPS??? very funny bad prime now give me the beavismatrix.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Or 3. He didn't have a clue what he wanted to do with Japan yet so he wrote through Erin Tarn that it was destroyed leaving it so that if he wanted to come back to it later and actually do something with it he could, and just say she was only writing the rumors she had heard, or he could leave it as she said, destroyed and not bother.



Daniel Stoker

I'm pretty sure that Erin Tarn always qualifies her observations versus her rumors.

Refer to my post, above on that (moot) point.

~ Josh

[vitae_drinker]

I honestly can't believe you people are arguing about this.

It's like the "Can the Enterprise take a Star Destroyer?" debate.

Except people here seem to be arguing whether it was the original or Next Generation Enterprise involved.

Can you say LAME.

[cornholioprime]

KC, you have created this thread as a debate. Therefore, it is encumbent upon YOU to prove that Erin Tarn HAS been to Japan, not upon us to prove that she has not. That's how debate works. You made the claim, you back it up.

As for Kevin's original vision, that ceased to matter the moment he allowed other people to write material for the Rifts world. In doing so, he ceded total authority and began to share it with others. As always, Kevin has retained final authority over what gets published and what does not, and this has been exercised in the past when some promised books just didn't get done because he didn't like what the author wrote. However, if something gets published, Kevin has to approve it.

Bottom line, if anyone is guilty of 'straying from Kevin's original vision', it is Kevin himself by allowing others to play in his setting.

Hate to break it to you, but that is not how debate works. Furthermore, KC is the only person I have seen actually use direct quotes from the book to back up his assertions, so he is backing up his claim.

I don't see what the big deal is. So they changed their mind about what they wanted to do with Japan. So what? Why is everyone upset that the Japan book is a new concept that changes Japan's fate as stated originally? Aren't games supposed to evolve?

Not upset in th slightest.

But I'll say to you what I said to Killer:

"A quiet cluster of wilderness Islands" is NOT the same thing as "Japan: Human Population: Zero."

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm glad I could be a spark to light this little fire, but I think it's time to add more fuel.

What was written in the RMB was to give everyone an idea about the rest of the world. At the time, it was official, but now, it's more what people in America would know about the other parts of the world.

Exactly.
Originally it was official, now that has changed.

Would it have been better if he gave no clue about Japan at all? Then you'd all be yelling about a LACK of information.

Not really.
Nobody has complained about the part where Tarn says, (Rifts, p. 152):
"Noge: I know nothing about Australia and the rest of the world."

The fact that Kev didn't include Japan with Australia and the rest shows that he had a specific idea for Japan (destruction).

Does Kevin need to start placing a disclaimer before Tarn's words now? "Warning, anything said by Erin Tarn is subject to change, and void in Rhode Island, because everything is void in Rhode Island."

If so, he needs the disclaimer everywhere... because everything in the books is subject to change.

[Killer Cyborg]

On pg. 16 of RUE, Ms. Tarn states that she did not personally visit Japan but she HEARD conflicting reports while in Russia. The Russian warlords also didn't tell her much about what was going down in China (which is two paragraphs above her entry on Japan) other than that there are about twelve Yama Kings, they're demonic gods, and that they most certainly didn't come Earth to throw a block party.
Yet Mr. Siembieda wrote or otherwise had a hand in a combined total of four books on both areas.

That should just about put this particular puppy to rest....

No we are debating the original intent in the first RMB. Not the revisionist history of RUE.

Yup.

[cornholioprime]

KC, you have created this thread as a debate. Therefore, it is encumbent upon YOU to prove that Erin Tarn HAS been to Japan, not upon us to prove that she has not. That's how debate works. You made the claim, you back it up.

As for Kevin's original vision, that ceased to matter the moment he allowed other people to write material for the Rifts world. In doing so, he ceded total authority and began to share it with others. As always, Kevin has retained final authority over what gets published and what does not, and this has been exercised in the past when some promised books just didn't get done because he didn't like what the author wrote. However, if something gets published, Kevin has to approve it.

Bottom line, if anyone is guilty of 'straying from Kevin's original vision', it is Kevin himself by allowing others to play in his setting.

Hate to break it to you, but that is not how debate works. Furthermore, KC is the only person I have seen actually use direct quotes from the book to back up his assertions, so he is backing up his claim.

I don't see what the big deal is. So they changed their mind about what they wanted to do with Japan. So what? Why is everyone upset that the Japan book is a new concept that changes Japan's fate as stated originally? Aren't games supposed to evolve?

Not upset in th slightest.

But I'll say to you what I said to Killer:

"A quiet cluster of wilderness Islands" is NOT the same thing as "Japan: Human Population: Zero."

Allow me to disagree. Miriam Webster supports me

"Main Entry: wil·der·ness
Pronunciation: 'wil-d&r-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from wildern wild, from Old English wilddEoren of wild beasts
1 a (1) : a tract or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings (2) : an area essentially undisturbed by human activity together with its naturally developed life community b : an empty or pathless area or region <in remote wildernesses of space groups of nebulae are found -- G. W. Gray died 1960> c : a part of a garden devoted to wild growth"

The above definition of the word "wilderness" came from Miriam Webster online at:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... wilderness

Doesn't really matter what Mirriam Webster or American Collegiate or Funk & Wagnalls says.

The definition that you dug up applies to the real world.

This Forum Debate applies to the Rifts Game Setting. And how Kevin uses/applies the term "wilderness" to it, even if he doesn't 100% follow a definition in a Real World Dictionary. Essentially, his definiton of "wilderness" refers to land that has in the main gone back to nature, but which still has (or has recenly had a new infusion of) Humans living on it.

Or did you forget that MOST of Russia, to name just ONE area, is primarily wilderness as defined in Rifts??

Add to the list of lands defined as "wilderness" as Kevin/Rifts defines it

**The British Isles
**Most of Africa
**Most of the Continental United States
**Nearly ALL of Australia apart from Perth and Melbourne
**Naga Island
**Bahia Island
**Most of Europe apart from Triax/NGR
**Most of South America apart from the few City-Fortress States and the Vampire Kingdoms
**Nearly ALL of that part of North America previously referred to as Canada

One more thing.

Did you take the time to find out that virtually everywhere he has ever had a region of land with NO Human Population (such as Korea, Moscow, the Phillipines, and the like), he has implicitly stated it???

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally Japan was a clump of wilderness islands without much there. IF (which is circumspect) Erin Tarn visited Japan in the original vision of Rifts she saw just that. Also judging by her other travels and text in the original main book (and logic) she would have not made said travel (IF she made...she most likely never visited Japan) recently.

She tends to note when she is not operating on firsthand information.
She didn't do that with Japan; she stated her information as if it were fact, not rumor. This (logically) indicates that she probably did visit there (or spoke firsthand with multiple trustworthy people who did).

However, the Tech-Cities were Rifted in around 87 P.A., most likely LONG after Tarn hypothetically set foot on the islands and thus news of them would have not reached Erin Tarn in America, let alone someone in Eurasia that could help pass the message along.

~ Josh

Agreed.
But doesn't the Japan book have more to it than those high-tech cities that rifted in? Stuff that would have been noticed by Tarn on her visit?

[Killer Cyborg]

People also seem to forget that Traversing Our Modern World was an unauthorized book compiled by a third party without Tarn's permission. It was this way even in the original main book.

So, technically, we have no way of knowing if the blurb on Japan is actually Tarn's words at all. For all we know it could have been the anonymous compiler's words which may have no scholarly backing whatsoever.

And thus the blurb could hold no weight whatsoever.

~ Josh

As I pointed out, technically we do have a way of knowing that she wrote the words.
Kevin Siembieda tells us so (Rifts, p. 137).
"What follows is a brief world overview written by historian and explorer, Erin Tarn."

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, you have created this thread as a debate. Therefore, it is encumbent upon YOU to prove that Erin Tarn HAS been to Japan, not upon us to prove that she has not. That's how debate works. You made the claim, you back it up.

As for Kevin's original vision, that ceased to matter the moment he allowed other people to write material for the Rifts world. In doing so, he ceded total authority and began to share it with others. As always, Kevin has retained final authority over what gets published and what does not, and this has been exercised in the past when some promised books just didn't get done because he didn't like what the author wrote. However, if something gets published, Kevin has to approve it.

Bottom line, if anyone is guilty of 'straying from Kevin's original vision', it is Kevin himself by allowing others to play in his setting.

Hate to break it to you, but that is not how debate works. Furthermore, KC is the only person I have seen actually use direct quotes from the book to back up his assertions, so he is backing up his claim.

I don't see what the big deal is. So they changed their mind about what they wanted to do with Japan. So what? Why is everyone upset that the Japan book is a new concept that changes Japan's fate as stated originally? Aren't games supposed to evolve?

Not upset in th slightest.

But I'll say to you what I said to Killer:

"A quiet cluster of wilderness Islands" is NOT the same thing as "Japan: Human Population: Zero."

As I said before; I never said that the human population was Zero.

[Sureshot]

For myself I prefer some sort of consistency in the world. More often than not the world changes not because it enhances the background, it to sell the next new shiny Rifts book. Which I understand but eventually one gets tired of seeing that. Japan imo is a good example of that.

Yes one can change it. Though sometimes it just good that they work from what they original intended rather than trying to make it more cooler than it original was.

[cornholioprime]

Did you take the time to find out that virtually everywhere he has ever had a region of land with NO Human Population (such as Korea, Moscow, the Phillipines, and the like), he has implicitly stated it???

So what you are saying is that when he implicitly states it with Japan it doesn't matter, but when he does it elsewhere it does matter?

While Rifts may have a slightly different view of wilderness than what the word actually means, it is still pretty close. Barely inhabited or low level habitation, not the grand scale of Rifts Japan.

I still don't get why it is such a big deal to you that Rifts (or KS) changed their minds and decided after the fact to make something out of Japan. It is obvious that when the first book came out they had no idea how well it would take off. Once it did of course they are going to change earlier visions of the world. Why is this such a sticking point for everyone?

I guess that you STILL don't get it.

**The people of Germany are stated to live in the wilderness; in fact, even the main areas that encompass the NGR and Triax are themselves quantified as "wilderness cities."

**The ENTIRE population of the New West is said to live in the wilderness; in fact, Kevin uses the word about twenty times in the first thirty pages or so.

**Rifts: Japan has approximately 15-20 million people, TOTAL, on its islands as of P.A. 100-105. This is down from a (Real World and Rifts estimated) population of about 600 million.

Hasn't anyone besides me realized that with such a drastic population reduction and accompanying destruction of the Golden Age Cities, that it is ENTIRELY possible for Erin Tarn (if indeed she was ever there) to do whatever passes for a flyover of Rifts Japan, see and report just wilderness, AND still be "wrong" about the New Republic??


**If Kevin did indeed want to say that Japan has virtually no population, then why didn't he state the case as clearly as he did (again, through Erin Tarn's eyes) in the description of the Magic Zone, and more importantly, the Far West?? In the very same Main Book, Erin categorically states that America's West (California, Oregon, and Washington, anyway) is indeed devoid -at least far as she could tell -of Human life.

Oh, and she ALSO calls the Far West a "wilderness."

[Gomen_Nagai]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Erin Tarn has never been to japan and she ever stated she would love to visit japan

[Kalinda]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

**Rifts: Japan has approximately 15-20 million people, TOTAL, on its islands as of P.A. 100-105. This is down from a (Real World and Rifts estimated) population of about 600 million.

Hasn't anyone besides me realized that with such a drastic population reduction and accompanying destruction of the Golden Age Cities, that it is ENTIRELY possible for Erin Tarn (if indeed she was ever there) to do whatever passes for a flyover of Rifts Japan, see and report just wilderness, AND still be "wrong" about the New Republic??

Sure, you can say that retroactively if you wish.
But I see no reason to believe that when Kev wrote the main book that this is what he had in mind.
Heck, I could retroactively make up dozens of explanations now as to why Erin Tarn might have been mistaken... but that doesn't change the fact that Kevin had no reason to try to mislead people when he wrote the original book.

0**If Kevin did indeed want to say that Japan has virtually no population, then why didn't he state the case as clearly as he did (again, through Erin Tarn's eyes) in the description of the Magic Zone, and more importantly, the Far West??

It's always polite and helpful to provide quotes from the book, or at least page numbers, instead of just mentioning rough passages.

In any case, I assume that you were referring to Rifts, p. 144 where it states, "Unfortunately, the incredible amount of magic energy in this region and the Ohio Valley has made it uninhabitable by human life."
The difference seems pretty clear to me; Japan was reduced to a quiet little chain of perfectly normal islands where nothing of any importance happens. The Magic Zone is a demon-infested hell filled with mystical energy and hostile to any normal humans.
In short, because Japan was in no way rendered uninhabitable to human life... just reduced to low-populated wilderness.

In the very same Main Book, Erin categorically states that America's West (California, Oregon, and Washington, anyway) is indeed devoid -at least far as she could tell -of Human life.

I can't find that passage.
My book does say, "There is simply no trace of humankind ever having set foot on this land", but that's in reference to the lack of ruins. That's made clear in context.

It also says, (Rifts, p. 138):
"Today, California through British Columbia is a blend of sub-tropical jungle, forest, and grassy plains. It is alive with wildlife, but few are the people."

Meaning that there clearly are a few people.

Oh, and she ALSO calls the Far West a "wilderness."

That's becaus it is one. Like Japan was. Wildlife, a handful of people, and not much happening there.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here