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The changeling description states that even a master psychic would have a hard time telling one apart from whatever species it's copying, so the 'bane should be just as hard or even harder for them when the 'bane is in Facade form. I'd make it a perception check of 18 or better for master psychics only.

Korentin_Black wrote:For crossover purposes, what sort of things do you folks feel will and will not detect the Facade as something other than strictly human - note that this does not necessarily mean as a supernatural being, but as 'not altogether right'

Including things like a Psi-Stalkers detection of the supernatural, the various detect supernatural evil abilities (if the Stalker is evil), Chi senses, various psychic diagnosis and analysis powers, blood-typing, examination by a bio-wizard, good old-fashioned Dog Boy sniffing, a full medical workup...?

See Aura would sense the Nightbane's high P.P.E. base (and magic, if a spellcaster) and may detect an "unusual human aberration," but would not specifically indicate that the Facade was any sort of supernatural monster.

Presence Sense and Sense Evil would likely detect a 'Bane in Morphus form, but not in Facade.

Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, Psi-Sensitives, etc., would probably be able to sense a Nightbane in Facade form, but would incur a -30% penalty on their detection roll, as per the Mind Master PCC in Nightbane: Between the Shadows.

Since the Facade is basically human, any kind of blood or genetic testing will not show any indication that the character is really a supernatural creature, though there may be some unusual traits that might indicate a mutation or abnormal health condition.

In Mystic China, Blind Mystics will effortlessly see through the Facade form, as well as the Shroud and Soul Shield Talents. Spells, powers, and abilities which sense Chi will function normally on Nightbane in any form, and will not detect anything out of the ordinary (though Nightbane would probably have twice the Chi base of a normal human). The Chi Magic spell of Sense Alchemical Aura may also show Nightbane in either form as Dark Blue or White (the colors of transformation and ghosts/spirits/soul fragments, respectively).

There are three basce ways to detecte a NightBane in their facade.

1) PSI or Magic See Aura, however this will not say that the subject is a Nightbane...only that the bane (in their facade) is not truely human.

2) you're a nightbane and you sense another NB nearby....

3) if you're an Athanatos and you sense a NB nearbye....

Chi senses wil see the bane's high chi level but like see aura it doesn't diffenitly say here is a a NB

A bio-wizard Might be able to figure out just what NB are....but as to cloning them ....if going by the cannon...that is not possible.

While you could do some background gathering to find out all those little tidbits about them...but that would take a long time and would stil be inconclusive.


way you can't detect a NB by

a full medical work up...they are just healthy humans (or whatever race they apper to be), and they heal at the same rate at the rest of us while in their facade.

Sense the supernatural (any) .....a NB in their facade is not SN so these type of powers and spells don't read them as SN.



oh no I forgot a fourth way to detecte a NB in their facade....you hound them in a fight till they change to their Morpheus, ....but by then its too late for you unless you can call in an air strike in on your possition because instead of a peace loving bane in thir facade...you have an angery bane in their morpius looking for someone to hurt.

Nerdbane wrote:Even without a full medical workup, they have abnormally fast healing rates compared to humans. If an untrained human with no detection powers whatsoever saw a 'bane in Facade get shot, stabbed, tasered, fragged, etc., then get up and be fine a few rounds later, they'd probably suspect that something was up ...

da Nerdbane

How do you come up with this when the Bane's regeneration powers are only present in their morphius?

drewkitty wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:Even without a full medical workup, they have abnormally fast healing rates compared to humans. If an untrained human with no detection powers whatsoever saw a 'bane in Facade get shot, stabbed, tasered, fragged, etc., then get up and be fine a few rounds later, they'd probably suspect that something was up ...

da Nerdbane

How do you come up with this when the Bane's regeneration powers are only present in their morphius?

No, it lists a number of abilites that are not present in facade, but regeneration is in both.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:Even without a full medical workup, they have abnormally fast healing rates compared to humans. If an untrained human with no detection powers whatsoever saw a 'bane in Facade get shot, stabbed, tasered, fragged, etc., then get up and be fine a few rounds later, they'd probably suspect that something was up ...

da Nerdbane

How do you come up with this when the Bane's regeneration powers are only present in their morphius?

No, it lists a number of abilites that are not present in facade, but regeneration is in both.

And in Facade they only heal twice as fast as a normal human.

MaddogMatarese wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:Even without a full medical workup, they have abnormally fast healing rates compared to humans. If an untrained human with no detection powers whatsoever saw a 'bane in Facade get shot, stabbed, tasered, fragged, etc., then get up and be fine a few rounds later, they'd probably suspect that something was up ...

da Nerdbane

How do you come up with this when the Bane's regeneration powers are only present in their morphius?

No, it lists a number of abilites that are not present in facade, but regeneration is in both.

And in Facade they only heal twice as fast as a normal human.

wheres it say that?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MaddogMatarese wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:Even without a full medical workup, they have abnormally fast healing rates compared to humans. If an untrained human with no detection powers whatsoever saw a 'bane in Facade get shot, stabbed, tasered, fragged, etc., then get up and be fine a few rounds later, they'd probably suspect that something was up ...

da Nerdbane

How do you come up with this when the Bane's regeneration powers are only present in their morphius?

No, it lists a number of abilites that are not present in facade, but regeneration is in both.

And in Facade they only heal twice as fast as a normal human.

wheres it say that?

Sorry, I was thinking of another species.

Korentin_Black wrote:So, quote-in-quote aside, do Nightbane regenerate in Facade? - because if so, that rather comes down heavily on the 'supernatural but not necessarily aiyee, aiyee, nightbane!' side (since canonically, they're not precisely what you'd call common knowledge, especially not in Rifts or N&S).

Nightbane regenerate 10 HP/SDC per melee in facade

After seeing this, I decided to double check.

The passage which refers to the regeneration also refers to supernatural strength and supernatural endurance and it doesn't once use the word Morphus or Facade.


So, you have a choice to make:

1) Accept that the Facade form, which is apparently normal human in every way, can bench press cars, run for days on end without sleep and regenerate a gunshot wound in seconds

2) Decide that the flavor text describing the Facade as being no different from human trumps a gramatical error that could grant them supernatural strength, supernatural endurance and regeneration.



Everybody I have ever gamed with has used option #2.

Korentin_Black wrote:Or vice-versa of course... this is one of those situations where 'flavour text' elsewhere in the book might help - a shame Palladium doesn't generally bother with it...

Funny you should mention that, as this is actually mentioned in the flavor text. According to Nightbane, p. 9, in the excerpts from the Wanderer Diaries:

Our Facades retain most of the frailties of being human. They heal faster than a normal human and are highly resistant to normal maladies like disease, poison, and the elements.... The Morphus shape, however, is powerful beyond measure. ... We heal from injury almost as fast as it is inflicted and are impervious to most disease.

This indicates that Nightbane heal quickly in both Facade and Morphus form, but that the Morphus does so faster. Of course, it also says the Morphus is immune to disease, while the rules only provide a +3 bonus to save vs. disease.

Regeneration is listed under item #3, Supernatural Attributes, and it is specifically stated that the Facade's attributes are not supernatural (of course, regeneration isn't technically an attribute). The text about the regeneration ability also says "in addition to their great amount of S.D.C and hit points, they can regenerate damage..." and the Facade does not have great amounts of S.D.C. and H.P. (however, 30 SDC is a lot more than the average human has in Nightbane).

Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

The 'bane would be detectable as "unique" compared to the other humans et al; due to the high PPE, and the fact that he is not "normal."

However, the detector would not necessarily know why the 'bane is drawing his attention.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

Why? there is no time limitation about how long a bane can stay in their morphius. Not to mnetion it doesn't say it would take months to regen a limb.

drewkitty wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

Why? there is no time limitation about how long a bane can stay in their morphius. Not to mnetion it doesn't say it would take months to regen a limb.

it said it regrew after a few months, and it's kinda hard to stay unnoticed in your morphus form for months on end unless your a barbie or ken.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

Why? there is no time limitation about how long a bane can stay in their morphius. Not to mnetion it doesn't say it would take months to regen a limb.

it said it regrew after a few months, and it's kinda hard to stay unnoticed in your morphus form for months on end unless your a barbie or ken.

And it once again brings up the question "Does the damage in one form cross over to the other form?" Does the fact his leg is missing in Morphus make his Facade form have one less leg as well? The part where he said if he was hit in his facade form he would have lost it permanently makes me believe if he had switched back it would have stopped healing.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

The passage in question specifically refers to the miraculous healing powers of the Morphus. Furthermore, it says the leg grew back "not long after," not several months later. Given the speed of regeneration, it is likely that the regrowth of limbs would take a few days at most, possibly even a few hours.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:it said it regrew after a few months, and it's kinda hard to stay unnoticed in your morphus form for months on end unless your a barbie or ken.

Even if it did take a few months, it is smarter for him to stay in morphus so he is less vulnerable. Seeing as he was in morphus to begin with, he obviously wasn't worried aboout being noticed. Besides, it's easier for him to crawl off to a hiding hole in morphus than in facade.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

drewkitty wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

No, in his facade form. it's rather silly to belive he stayed in his morphus form for months.

Why? there is no time limitation about how long a bane can stay in their morphius. Not to mnetion it doesn't say it would take months to regen a limb.

it said it regrew after a few months, and it's kinda hard to stay unnoticed in your morphus form for months on end unless your a barbie or ken.

Don't forget...the same Wanderer Diaries also imply that the 'bane in question also spent alot of time away from the rest of the world (ie: in the "wilderness"). Back then, there were any number of areas in Europe that despite being a reasonably short distance from urbanised areas were left wild.
Besides, I don't remember if the Wanderer ever described his Morphus. It could simply be a damaged suit of armour, etc. Depending on what it was, he could, with very little in the way of desguise skill, walk the streets without drawing too much attention.

As for certain cities in the real world even in "modern" times, it wouldn't be as difficult as you might think. New York has dozens of areas where a 'bane with even the most hideous morphus could spend months at a time in his "natural" form and (rarely) be seen. Same with most large cities in Europe (considering that the sewer systems allow a tall man in a skiff to pole down them even in most high-water situations!).

Therumancer wrote:I don't think much is supposed to work to detect them. If it was that easy to do, they would be easily rendered extinct. The fact that Nightbane are hard to detect and that it requires very specific things, is one of the central concepts of the game.

That said, there are lots of things (mostly spells, don't forget the "Lens Of True Sight" spell from "Through The Glass Darkly) already in the game that work.

All told it works best with spells and such because the guy using the spell has to do it "actively" which means he already has to suspect. If someone could just wander around and 'sniff out' Nightbane it wouldn't be much of a disguise.

>>>----Therumancer--->

Yeah I'm with Theru on this one. As long as they're in their Facade, they shouldn't register as anything more than a human being with an awful lot of PPE (which would get them in trouble in places where mages aren't welcome, but wouldn't have many other consequences). The only exceptions would be when the 'bane is actively using one of the small handful of Talents that can be activated in facade form, or the small handful of spells and powers some OCC/RCCs have to automatically discern the true nature of a critter.

Once they're in their Morphus though, they should be fair game to every detection spell under the sun. It goes well with the "can only use most Talents while in morphus" rule and reinforces the impression that when a nightbane sheds his human disguise he's exposing his true nature to the world.

KalamariKid wrote:Seconding Rallan, and thirding Theru on that one. Based on old comments from C.J. himself back in the day, the Facade (and accompanying non-detection capability) is as much a special power of the Bane as all the Talents that the Morphus can unleash. To paraphrase Mr. Carella (and this is from a comment made, wow, about 9-10 years ago) - "The Facade aspect is meant to be just that, a facade that hides the Morphus aspect from detection. Without that, Nightspawn are just shapeshifters with only one really strange alternate form available to them. They'd also be vulnerable to Hounds and other detectors".

Edit: Rallan, love the sig. Is that completely, undilutedly insane default signature that you were talking about the other night?

Pruned a bit to fit my high opinion of it, but yeah. We can probably thank the former site admin Midnght for making that tripe the original default sigline for accounts on this forum

So Pray tell what's the Whole thing?
Since your name dropping and all.
There never was any default SIG I set up.

But i am curious to know what the heck it says.,

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

NO, in his facade form.
It jsut didn't regrow with in minutes hours as it would in morphus.

Korentin_Black wrote:Or vice-versa of course... this is one of those situations where 'flavour text' elsewhere in the book might help - a shame Palladium doesn't generally bother with it...

Still, this is a pretty substantial error - by the rules as they stand (assuming Jeffar is correct, and I have no reason at all to disbelieve him) a 'bane is a supernatural critter (though difficult to detect) in all forms.

No it doesn't, go back read the rules for making a nightbane.

another, related question: what do you think about detecting Facades before their first Becoming (= Latents)? The rulesbook mentions the Nightbane Talent "See Truth" only (and that under Latents and not the Talent). Is that all, or should they register to the Sense Nightbane too (this seems unsupported by the rules)? Anything else? Please state, wether it's by reference or your own opinion. Thanks.

banes can sense latents Upon being near them.

Gomen_Nagai wrote:banes can sense latents Upon being near them.

opinion or reference (page number)?

again, my point (quote from pg. 30):

"Latents: Nightbane whose powers have not yet manifested. Before Dark Day, latents had a good chance of living out normal lives without ever transforming. Now, most latents manifest their superhuman nature before their 25th birthday. Latents have no Nightbane power before they experience the Becoming, but their Nightbane essence can be discerned by the See Truth talent possessed by some Nightbane."

the part where it says Nightbanes can sense Other banes on sight in any shape or form. certainly a reshaper would notice them.

Sir_Spirit wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Personally, I ruled that the Facade recovers 1D6 HP/SDC every hour, but can't regrow severed body parts.

But the same Wander diaries you referenced also mention that the Wanderer himself regrew his leg after it was shot off by a canon.

Yes, in his Morphus form.

NO, in his facade form.
It jsut didn't regrow with in minutes hours as it would in morphus.

Nope. The Wanderer's reference to losing and regenerating a leg is specifically offered as a testament to the Morphus' power:

The Morphus shape, however, is powerful beyond measure. We can rend flesh, stone and metal with our hands, claws and teeth. We heal from injury almost as fast as it is inflicted and are impervious to most disease. In my time, I have fought on after having been shot multiple times, bayoneted by a dozen terrified men, even after losing a leg, sheared off by a cannonball.