Should runner ships get Space Fighter bonuses?

Braden Campbell · Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:44 pm

I am finishing up Trade Federations and Mercantilus Unions, and am mulling something over.

A "typical" runner ship (Phase World, pg. 171) is smaller and lighter than a Proctor long-range interceptor. The interceptor itself is described as being an "over-sized space fighter".

Both the Proctor and the runner ships are smaller, faster, and lighter than a combat troop shuttle.

So if they are not as big and clumsy as a shuttle, but larger than a regular space fighter.... should they get the bonuses from Pilot: Space Fighter? Or should these tiny craft use Pilot: Small Space craft with its suckier bonuses?

Answer only after you think about game balance. This could set a precedence...

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:11 pm

It should be pilot equal to the design of the craft. Meaning if a runner ship is designed for combat it would pilot space fighter if it was designed for cargo like the Grimtooth it would be pilot spacecraft small

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:24 am

I would say, that the "template" Runner Ship is just a freighter.

It is like a Lear Jet versus an F-15. One can fit some
launch hardpoints on a Lear Jet, military grade electronics,
even a 30 mm autocanon...
(As it was done to the Comet - reincarnating it as the Nimrod)
..but it still cannot outmanouver it.

Besides, either the Runner's or the Proctor's stats are bugged.

A 500 ton dedicated space fighter which not vastly superior
to a 300 ton freighter (judging from the price, it is not a
surplus military vessel), but marginally inferior...?

Adios
KLM

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:42 pm

Hmmm... two ways you can do the 'Naruni-Comet' Runner ship (what can I say, I read 'Hammer of the forge'

):
#1; Allow the pilot to use their base PP bonus (if any) to dodge and 'parry' with shileds, but that's it... no other bonus. This can emulate their slightly better handling capabilities from bulk-trasports but their inferiorty to fighters.
#2; Use PP bonuses like above, but the best any 'runner' can have for combat training bonuses is 'Pilot Space fighter: basic'.

Lastly, if you are a major hard-nose GM... no bonuses and just straight D20 or percentile rolls to get out of harms way... but we all know you aren't a hard-nose...are you? :lol:

Braden Campbell · Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:25 pm

What if "combat performance" were avilable as a ship upgrade? (giving a runner ship or military shuttle the equivilent of Spacefighter: basic bonuses...not available to cargo frighters or bigger ships)

how much would you expect to pay for such a thing?

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:55 pm

Braden, GMPhD wrote:What if "combat performance" were avilable as a ship upgrade? (giving a runner ship or military shuttle the equivilent of Spacefighter: basic bonuses...not available to cargo frighters or bigger ships)

how much would you expect to pay for such a thing?

I'd say about 50-75% added to base price, or if you want to make it a bit more rare...hmmm... X3 to X4 cost

Just suggestions. :ok:

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:18 pm

Braden, GMPhD wrote:What if "combat performance" were avilable as a ship upgrade? (giving a runner ship or military shuttle the equivilent of Spacefighter: basic bonuses...not available to cargo frighters or bigger ships)

how much would you expect to pay for such a thing?

I would say, with CG it is possible. But this means that the
good portion of the ship is dedicated to engines and reactors,
and the price is proportional to the ship's mass...

As for exact price... I would go for 100K per ton for "Basic"
upgrade, ADDITIONAL 200K per ton to "Elite", and like 50K
per ton (additional, too) for each dodge bonus (up to +4).

It takes 10%, 10% and 5% of the ship's loaded mass in engines
and reactors (and structural reinforcement and/or inertial
dampening fields, etc.)

On the bright side, it would also enhace top (sublight) speed
- guessimated - by 1, 1, 0.5 M per "upgrade", as well as
5%, 5%, and 2% MDC on the main body.

So, a runner ship with a maxed manouverability:
300 tons * (100K+200K+4*50K) = 150 million credit

It decreases cargo capacity by 300/100*(10+10+4*5)=120 tons...
...well, it is not possible.

So, while it would raise top speed to 10+1+1+4*0,5 = 14M
and MDC to 2000*(1+0,05+0,05+4*0,02)=2360, it is not possible
at the current technical level in the three galaxies.

But that is just a quick warm-up exercise of the mind.

Adios
KLM

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:28 pm

Depends on the Runnership.

I'd say it should be available as an option, for an appropriate cost.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:24 am

Darkmax, while it is not unreasonable, that Runners
got their hands on a military surplus vehicle, and
with a little modification it outperforms most standard
fighters of the Three Galaxies...
...but not cheaper.

So, in the case of the "Runner Ship" from DMB2, either
the stats or the price is way off, even without fighter-like
manoverability.

Adios
KLM

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:10 am

Upgrading a ship to make it more maneuverable and behave like a space fighter flies in the face of aircraft design and physics. If a ship is basically a box designed for cargo no amount of upgrading is going to make it behave like a space fighter. Inversly no space fighter is ever going to function profitably as a cargo vessel unless its cargo is information, like a spy. You have to buy the vessel for the type of smuggling you are going to do. Most of the time in the case of a cargo runner outrunning authorities is going to consist of clever forged documents proper flight plans and the like. The smuggler is instrumental to a game and should be treated as the flavor of the game you are playing in allows.

Braden Campbell · Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:33 am

Thanks guys.

I've decided that they don't get Space Fighter bonuses.... but it was a worthy debate.

When I come up with some kind of space ship building rules however, there will be a purchasable upgrade for small spacecraft that will give some bonuses to move... but nowhere near the capabilities of a true space fighter.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:02 pm

Keep in mind, that militaries do sell surplus vessels, and there
is a NE, a DI and a Phase World (just to mention the greatest
manufacturers) who will sell military grade equipment (even
warships) to anyone with credits.

So, yeah, Runner sometimes use fighters or even frigates
(the Scimitar is especially mentioned), for blockade running
and even engage in firefights. After all, the line between
pirates and smugglers is blurred.

As for dedicated cargo vessels to be converted into dogfight
capable craft... Why not? CG drives, structural reinforcement
and extra reactor power is needed, and it can be done.
Not cheaply, and it will be a maintenance nightmare, but
it is possible technically and essential for the Space Opera
setting. Maybe not as agile, but that can be countered with
turreted weapons.

Getting a big box (with a cockpit attached to the front, and
a couple of drives to the rear) outperform an aerospace
fighter in atmosphere is less plausible, of course.

Maybe one can slug it out with a Scorpion, but a Flying Fang
is definitely a bigger problem.

Adios
KLM