Silverhawk disruptor

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:51 pm

If I remember correctly, there was some feature of the Silverhawk PA that would locally disrupt force fields - it didn't last real long, but it was enough to get the Silverhawk through.

Had anybody else thought to rip that component out and strap it on a missle or two (we called 'em "Equalizers")? Have that disruptor on say one missle of a volley, and when it gets a certain distance from the target (which could be determined very easy by radar) it kicks on and then you have missles bypassing the force field - and blowing the crap out of the ship instead.

Unpleasant stuff for the bad guys...

glitterboy2098 · Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:59 pm

millions of times.......

IIRC, the official errata states the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles.

now, depending on how you run the sheilds (EM, Gravitic, ect), there might be other methods.

missiles that ignore sheilds would be a tad unbalancing though.

Marrowlight · Unread post by **Marrowlight** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:01 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:millions of times.......

IIRC, the official errata states the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles.

now, depending on how you run the sheilds (EM, Gravitic, ect), there might be other methods.

missiles that ignore sheilds would be a tad unbalancing though.

Just a tad?

Couldn't you technically just modify the Silverhawk into a missile carrying PA though? Not that many guys would want that duty - but there's boung to be a few nut bags in the CCW.

Braden Campbell · Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:35 pm

The best use of the Silverhawk is as an elite Special Forces unit that goes in, completes an objective, and gets out without ever having been seen or detected. The idea of them careening headlong into starships during pitched battle is... well... kind of dumb.

They are Hienlen's Starship Troopers.

As for the ability of missiles to bypass shields... I say no.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:15 pm

IIRC, the official errata states the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles.

Was this in a Rifter or something? I must have missed this one...

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:57 am

The Silverhawk is not just able to penetrate shields
but also a steatlh craft - ie able to close in a ship
undetected.

That said, they are - while an elite "class" in the CAF -
a frontline assault element of the armed forces.

They are more like marines or paratroopers (even
fighter pilots) than SEAL, SAS, Specnaz personell.

That means, in a good percentage of their sorties
they apply frontal assault (not that steatlh is not
handy in a space battle - they have a similar role
than submarines in WWII pacific battles).

But also, sometimes they are just standing on the
hull or flying in close formation with their mothership
and performing point defense.

Adios
KLM

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:21 am

Did anybody come up with where this might have come from, like actual source?

IIRC, the official errata states the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles.

I'd kinda like to read it myself if I can...

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:09 pm

Because if:

the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles

is merely a convenient house-rule, then I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the contraption to make wicked-killah missles.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:57 pm

'cos you will be targeted by the cosmo-knights and quite a few people in these boards

Why the CK's? Why is defeating FF's such a problem? It isn't as if the characters would be going around drowning puppies...

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:39 pm

Most guys in this board are against genocide or overly unbalanced weapons

I don't know about the genocide part, but have you read Phase World and the following books? You call that stuff balanced??

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:53 pm

The Avenger PA. The Seljuk as a race. Phase technology. Naruni Repo-bots. Cosmo Knights. Balanced.

I suppose to the levels of power that are present in the Phase World setting, sure.

So how would missiles that could bypass FF's be any different? Keep in mind, it would be prohibitively expensive to throw one o' them units on each and every missle - at least, prohibitively expensive for something that won't be used ever again.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:49 am

There isn't a sure-fire way to defend against such a weapon, no conventional sensor can do it. Nor any anti-missile system can successfully destroy one.

In this case, isn't over-advantaged?

Not really - it would only work for certain against tech based force fields (or at least that is how I would interpret the way that it functions) - so anything magical/mystical/phase-ical it would be ineffective against.

Secondly, the things can't be cheap, otherwise why wouldn't EVERYONE be using them in their armors? Either the technology is very hush hush or prohibitively expensive to be used. Since I think that you can buy Silverhawks (or at least a price is listed for purchase) it would seem that it wouldn't be too hush hush...

Marrowlight · Unread post by **Marrowlight** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:38 am

You know wrote:
There isn't a sure-fire way to defend against such a weapon, no conventional sensor can do it. Nor any anti-missile system can successfully destroy one.

In this case, isn't over-advantaged?

Not really - it would only work for certain against tech based force fields (or at least that is how I would interpret the way that it functions) - so anything magical/mystical/phase-ical it would be ineffective against.

Secondly, the things can't be cheap, otherwise why wouldn't EVERYONE be using them in their armors? Either the technology is very hush hush or prohibitively expensive to be used. Since I think that you can buy Silverhawks (or at least a price is listed for purchase) it would seem that it wouldn't be too hush hush...

They'd be a lot cheaper than the rather large spaceships and crew they'd be killing with relative ease.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:21 pm

They'd be a lot cheaper than the rather large spaceships and crew they'd be killing with relative ease

I suppose that it all depends on the "relative ease" portion of the killin'. Sure, the FF provides an extra measure of protection, but the un-shielded ships usually aren't too shabby in the armor anyway (especially larger ships which are going to get pounded on anyway in large space battles).

In any event, I still don't see what it wouldn't work given the rules provided. Unbalancing? Maybe. But so is a human-sized PC that can square off unaided against a battleship <cough - Cosmo Knight!>...

Marrowlight · Unread post by **Marrowlight** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:51 pm

You know wrote:
They'd be a lot cheaper than the rather large spaceships and crew they'd be killing with relative ease

I suppose that it all depends on the "relative ease" portion of the killin'. Sure, the FF provides an extra measure of protection, but the un-shielded ships usually aren't too shabby in the armor anyway (especially larger ships which are going to get pounded on anyway in large space battles).

In any event, I still don't see what it wouldn't work given the rules provided. Unbalancing? Maybe. But so is a human-sized PC that can square off unaided against a battleship <cough - Cosmo Knight!>...

Just because there's one unbalancing element doesn't mean there should automatically be more though. You only get one queen in chess after all.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:28 pm

The Shadow Veritechs have a destabilizer that puts holes in the shields of the Invid for a few moments. I can't remember if it'll work against other types of shields though.

Do variable frequency lasers work against shields like they do with Glitterboys?

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:09 am

Just because there's one unbalancing element doesn't mean there should automatically be more though. You only get one queen in chess after all.

Sure, at the START of the game - it is up to you the player to get you some more (through the judicious use of pawns...). Which is a very good anaolgy for a FF defeating missle, really...

if you were to require your character to stop the phase missiles, what would you have them do?

If it were something like a PHASE missile, I believe that any FF would stop it (or at least impede it from going any farther, but it has been awhile since i really looked at any of the phase "tech," so this is just a guess).

As for the FF "bypassing" missle, standard missile defense railguns and counter-missles could be very easily deployed.

You have to figure that you aren't going to get very many "free" hits with this sort of strategy - at the very most, you are going to get attention diverted to a more defensive strategy on your opponents behalf and they are going to take more care in trying to intercept said missles.

Do variable frequency lasers work against shields like they do with Glitterboys?

Huh. Never though of that one. I'm sure that something along those lines might be possible (like perhaps a variable-wavelength particle beam cannon ot something...).

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:13 pm

Again, I though that all phase stuff was effectively "stopped" by FFs. Like, if you had a phase sword and swung at someone just wearing armor, it would go through the armor an hit the squishy inside. But if said squishy had a FF instead, the phase sword would do damage to the FF - it wouldn't be able to bypass it.

Am I remembering the rules on how this works incorrectly?

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:53 am

You know wrote:
Do variable frequency lasers work against shields like they do with Glitterboys?

Huh. Never though of that one. I'm sure that something along those lines might be possible (like perhaps a variable-wavelength particle beam cannon ot something...).

Well if they did, then you could adjust the energy field of the proton torpedos from....(crap, brain fart)... either the Robotech series or Phase World (I'm not sure where I saw them) to match the shield frequency. This wouldn't last long though, the Op4 would begin rotating the shield frequency as soon as they figured out what you're doing. It's best to have the VFLs as a SDC weapon, it won't cause any damage, thereby delaying shield rotation until your torpedos pass through the shields and hit the ship itself.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:13 pm

darkmax wrote:
You know wrote:Again, I though that all phase stuff was effectively "stopped" by FFs. Like, if you had a phase sword and swung at someone just wearing armor, it would go through the armor an hit the squishy inside. But if said squishy had a FF instead, the phase sword would do damage to the FF - it wouldn't be able to bypass it.

Am I remembering the rules on how this works incorrectly?

No... there is an example of the description of a phase cannon in one of the Phase World book. Sorry, I cannot pinpoint the exact pages and book for you. Too lazy to.

RDB:2, page 122: Phase beamers are stopped by normal force fields, phase-fields, and magic barriers.

I believe the same applies to the phase sword as well. The only other Phase World book I have is the first sourcebook, and I don't recall anything condradicting this rule.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:17 pm

You know wrote:Did anybody come up with where this might have come from, like actual source?
IIRC, the official errata states the disruptor system requires an entire melee in contact with the sheild. not much use to missiles.

I'd kinda like to read it myself if I can...

So is there a link to this or not?

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:06 pm

darkmax wrote:
MaddogMatarese wrote:RDB:2, page 122: Phase beamers are stopped by normal force fields, phase-fields, and magic barriers.

I believe the same applies to the phase sword as well. The only other Phase World book I have is the first sourcebook, and I don't recall anything condradicting this rule.

I remebered somewhere it was stated that a Phased cannon can bypass shields to kill the occupants of a vessels, leaving the ship intact.

Or did I mised this up with a thread here?

I think you're confusing it with something else. Space pirates love these weapons for that reason alone, but they still need to bring down the shields first.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:10 pm

On a side note, Phase beams of all types DO directly kill the occupants of Intruder vessel, bypassing the substance of the solid energy walls of the ships

I am going to assume that this is talking about a book that I don't have, because I can't recall any instance of an "Intruder" vessel. But different.

"That magic wand looks suspiciously like a fleshlight"

Please, please PLEASE let that be a typo - otherwise, ewwwww...

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:12 pm

In any event, it doesn't APPEAR that my initial premise was incorrect - unless someone knows where the "full melee round proximity" might be found as official.

Unbalancing? Maybe. I like to think of it as inventive - if they didn't want stuff to bypass FF's, they shouldn't have made it canon in the first place...

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:14 pm

The Intruders are in the Phase World sourcebook.

Ohhhhhhh... I dimly remember this now. We never even thought of using it because it just didn't seem to be that good of an idea. But now I know what you are talking about.

Very strange.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:26 pm

Was the "Intruder threat" ever embellished upon in the rest of the Phase Worldish stuff, or was it just sort of abandoned in that book?

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:03 am

Silverhawk FF bypass:
While it seems to be a very powerfull tool for an already stealth
PA, but... But please check out shield descriptions, at NE sections.

It says, that shields can be penetrated by slow moving objects.
(A tribute to Frank Herbert).

Therefore this device only spare an action or two for the PA pilot,
(althought those seconds seem to last forever, where a couple
of point defense canons are locked on your PA) and it looks like
that other PA's can also penetrate shields.

As for FF penetrating missiles...

Sure, they seem to be powerfull. But those devices probably cost
like half a million to produce, and in the Three Galaxies (where
48 LRMs weight one ton)... how much the device (and its power
supply) weights? Like 10 kg? Mounting it on an LRM means effectively
no warhead.
Cruise missile are probably bigger, guessimated to weight around half
a ton (four LRMs as warhead and another half of the missile is propulsion
and sensors), but it also decreases warhead weight by - cca. - 10-20%.

Now, since capital ships carry at least 60% of their MDC in
armor (the rest are shields and finally "internal structures"),
the gain from a military viewpoint is marginal.

DMB6 lists the heavy AM crM at 580K, and the singularity missile
is close to the million.
A quick quessimation resulted that overall effectivity gain ranges
from 151% (best case) to 104%, depending on warhead effectivity
loss and ship type.
Price tag is doubled.

Given the usual wievpoint of the Three Galaxies (they do not
use newer vessels, since older ones do almost the same job,
but for considerably lesser amount of money/resources), shield
penetrating missiles aren't going to be used.

And it is the case, when missiles simply pass the FF, without
interaction. Now, if they have to hover before the FF for a couple
of seconds (1 action), their effective hit ratio will drop significantly
(the point defense will have another chance).

----------------
What I wonder, is that why the missiles are this small?

Take an old starfighter, rip off the life support, most of the weapons,
tinker with the engines (to go with 20M and let them burn out after it),
and pack like 2 or 3 tons of explosives into it. Better yet, put in a
ton of K-Hex, and weld on an extra 2 tons of armor - just to make
a favor for point defense....

Of course, this torpedo (tribute to Whitehead and Lupis) is only
viable against cruisers and up... But hey... Spending like 100
million to take out a 3 billion credit ship is a good trade IMO.

Adios
KLM

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:41 am

See, this is the sort of stuff that I can't talk about owing to a lack of access to the books.

Would I think that this sort of idea would be heavily utilized by militaries? No. To expensive. However, for the discriminating (and cahsflow heavy) adventurers, this makes a very sound investment - gives the baddies something to think about while you figure a way to high-tail it out of the area...

Kalinda · Unread post by **Kalinda** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:27 pm

OK, I read the description of the FF disrupter and don't see anything indicating that it takes an entire round to punch a hole.

Rate of fire is given as one pulse per melee round, and it states that the hole is only open for 3 seconds, but thats it. nothing saying the pilot has to linger for a whole round for it to take effect.

Given the short range (20 feet) I would think that they would mention if it took that long.

Seems like putting disrupters in missiles would be a valid tactic, and as you say, it would be expensive enough that it wouldn't be very unbalancing.

Tech changes, and tactics have to change along with it. There's no reason to assume that there aren't people in the phase world setting working on things like this along with other innovations in warfare.

Steve Dubya · Unread post by **Steve Dubya** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:00 pm

Kalinda wrote:OK, I read the description of the FF disrupter and don't see anything indicating that it takes an entire round to punch a hole.

Rate of fire is given as one pulse per melee round, and it states that the hole is only open for 3 seconds, but thats it. nothing saying the pilot has to linger for a whole round for it to take effect.

Given the short range (20 feet) I would think that they would mention if it took that long.

Seems like putting disrupters in missiles would be a valid tactic, and as you say, it would be expensive enough that it wouldn't be very unbalancing.

Tech changes, and tactics have to change along with it. There's no reason to assume that there aren't people in the phase world setting working on things like this along with other innovations in warfare.

This is what I remembered it saying (which is why I was very confused about the whole round business that I am now thinking someone just made up or misremembered).

Thanks for the assistance.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:29 pm

I just read up on the EU-13 from Robotech. It states that it works against Invid shields, but doesn't say about any other. However, the EU-12 does state that it's just as effective against Zentradi shields. I don't see why the EU-13 would be any different from the EU-12 in that respect. The question now is "Will they work against shields from the 3 Galaxies?" I believe they would, but not having seen the series to know how they work I can't explain why. :oops:

If anyone knows how they work, please tell.
If they do work, outfit your ships with enough of those guns to take an entire side of a starship's shields down, then blast the target with phase cannons. :twisted:

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:56 am

darkmax wrote:okay.... FF work based on frequency right? If the missile, PA or torpedo can match that frequency, wouldn't it be able to pass through easily?

This is the way I understand how weapons on a vessel fire out of its own shields while other weapons can't get in. It would also explain the fact that most of the carriers can launch smaller assault vessels and PA while the shields are up. They have the same frequency or they have a signal that allows them to pass through the shields.

Am I wrong?

Makes sense to me.