High-tech carbine rules...

[Braden Campbell]

Since it will apply to more than one setting (i'm looking specifically at Phase World, but will apply to Rifts and more), I'll post his here.


My players may soon be deeply involved in a mission that will take them through a blasted city. but in looking through the innumerable Palladium weapons in my Rifts GMs Guide... I'll be damned if I can find a good carbine.

A carbine, for the purposes of this post, is a scaled-down version of whatever happens to be the current standard-issue military rifle, made ideal for close quarters combat. The weapon probably uses the same ammo as the the standard rifle, but should also pack a whallop (to drop foes quickly and overcome body armour).

So far, the closest things I can find are the Naruni Laser Pulse Rifle (why else would they build a laser with a 600' range !?!) and the NE Stutterer sub-machine gun.

So... shall I just take the HI-80, cut it in half, and find a good damage rating (less than the rifle, but more than the pistol)... or is there some kind of actual formula that I could be following?

[The Galactus Kid]

MercOps has some good ones. Check these out:
NG-LP25 Laser Pulse SMG p. 90
WI-R12 Multi-Purpose SMG p.99
WI-SR15 Assault Rifle/Sniper RIfle P.100
Wilks 577 Double threat p.103
MR-10 MageFire Bolt Rifle p. 146
MR-12 E-Mag Splinter Rifle p. 147

Those are just a few.

[Cinos]

The damage wouldn't be effected too heavely, but mainly just the range and accuracy over long distances. Ammo wouldn't be effected heavly at all either, if at all. However, if made by someone like NE, who tends to use cartrages rather than normal E-Clips, then damage wouldn't be effected at all (the gun isn't depented for damage, but the shell used), but range would be much more heavely effected, and the clip may be made 10 - 15% smaller to keep the weighting down on the smaller weapon.

Cinos

[Guest]

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[Braden Campbell]

Uh.... OK.

Thanks.

[Kalinda]

To fill the role of a carbine I favor the NG-IP7 Ion pulse rifle. (GMG page 158.) It's lightweight with a handy bullpup configuration. has only a bit shorter range then a rifle, and does good damage. You could easily design a carry strap for it that would allow the user to carry it across their back, but still bring it into action quickly.

[Tigermuppetcut]

Why not a rifle? Nothing in the rules makes them any better or worse at close quarters.

[Thinyser]

Why not a rifle? Nothing in the rules makes them any better or worse at close quarters.

Good point. since there are no penalties for using long guns in CQ you might as well use them full sized.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

well mostly for coolness factor, A bullpup just looks cooler IMHO. and they just seem more fitting in a closed-in environment.

Common sense should be used in these situations.
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I know, I know. Its hard to find these days, but if one looks hard enough you might be able to scrape some off the bottom of your shoe.

[Thinyser]

well mostly for coolness factor, A bullpup just looks cooler IMHO. and they just seem more fitting in a closed-in environment.

Common sense should be used in these situations.
...
...
...
I know, I know. Its hard to find these days, but if one looks hard enough you might be able to scrape some off the bottom of your shoe.

Carbine =/= bullpup all the time.

Bullpupis when the magizine and mechnism is behind the grip/trigger. Many carbines do not have this arrangement though many bullpup designs are carbines or are at least smaller than a normal rifle although to be considered a carbine its usually has a larger rifle counterpart.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Thank you Mr. Knowitall.

[Danger]

Thank you Mr. Knowitall.

Least he included links.

[Thinyser]

Thank you Mr. Knowitall.

Hey I am just making the world a better place by combating ignorance wherever I can.

...and I do know everything ...I just can't remember it all at once!

[Jefffar]

IRL carbines generally come in one of 2 basic forms.

Compact longarms that fire pistol ammunition

Compact longarms that fire low or intermediate powered rifle ammunition.

The key results is a carbine tends to be smaller than a standard longarm but also has a dramatically reduced range. Damage is typically comperable to a handgun or low or intermediate powered rifle.

Add full auto to a carbine and you have either a Submachinegun or an Assault Crabine depeng on if you are using pistol or rifle ammo.

So yeah, make a heavy pistol with longer range or a light rifle with shorter range and you have a carbine.

[Thinyser]

IRL carbines generally come in one of 2 basic forms.

Compact longarms that fire pistol ammunition

Compact longarms that fire low or intermediate powered rifle ammunition.

The key results is a carbine tends to be smaller than a standard longarm but also has a dramatically reduced range. Damage is typically comperable to a handgun or low or intermediate powered rifle.

Add full auto to a carbine and you have either a Submachinegun or an Assault Crabine depeng on if you are using pistol or rifle ammo.

So yeah, make a heavy pistol with longer range or a light rifle with shorter range and you have a carbine.

I'd say that damage is often better than a hand gun of the same caliber as more of propusive power of the powder charge is harnessed in a 12-16 inch barrel than in a 6-8 in barrel.

So i'd say that if they use a pistol round to up the damage by a die or by a + that is equal to the average of an aditional die. So a 4d6 pistol round like the .45 ACP would do 5d6 or 4d6+3 as a carbine like the Tommy gun for example.

For rifles that are essentially "sawed off" they should loose a die of damage.

[Jefffar]

IRL carbines generally come in one of 2 basic forms.

Compact longarms that fire pistol ammunition

Compact longarms that fire low or intermediate powered rifle ammunition.

The key results is a carbine tends to be smaller than a standard longarm but also has a dramatically reduced range. Damage is typically comperable to a handgun or low or intermediate powered rifle.

Add full auto to a carbine and you have either a Submachinegun or an Assault Crabine depeng on if you are using pistol or rifle ammo.

So yeah, make a heavy pistol with longer range or a light rifle with shorter range and you have a carbine.

I'd say that damage is often better than a hand gun of the same caliber as more of propusive power of the powder charge is harnessed in a 12-16 inch barrel than in a 6-8 in barrel.

So i'd say that if they use a pistol round to up the damage by a die or by a + that is equal to the average of an aditional die. So a 4d6 pistol round like the .45 ACP would do 5d6 or 4d6+3 as a carbine like the Tommy gun for example.

For rifles that are essentially "sawed off" they should loose a die of damage.

I wouldn't say it's different enough to warrent an extra average die of damage. And with energy weapons, there's no real way to say if the barrel length would affect damage or not, only effective range (if only by increasing the sight radius to aid aiming).

[Thinyser]

IRL carbines generally come in one of 2 basic forms.

Compact longarms that fire pistol ammunition

Compact longarms that fire low or intermediate powered rifle ammunition.

The key results is a carbine tends to be smaller than a standard longarm but also has a dramatically reduced range. Damage is typically comperable to a handgun or low or intermediate powered rifle.

Add full auto to a carbine and you have either a Submachinegun or an Assault Crabine depeng on if you are using pistol or rifle ammo.

So yeah, make a heavy pistol with longer range or a light rifle with shorter range and you have a carbine.

I'd say that damage is often better than a hand gun of the same caliber as more of propusive power of the powder charge is harnessed in a 12-16 inch barrel than in a 6-8 in barrel.

So i'd say that if they use a pistol round to up the damage by a die or by a + that is equal to the average of an aditional die. So a 4d6 pistol round like the .45 ACP would do 5d6 or 4d6+3 as a carbine like the Tommy gun for example.

For rifles that are essentially "sawed off" they should loose a die of damage.

I wouldn't say it's different enough to warrent an extra average die of damage. And with energy weapons, there's no real way to say if the barrel length would affect damage or not, only effective range (if only by increasing the sight radius to aid aiming).

energy weapons you are 100% correct ...who knows

[Braden Campbell]

See... here's another thought I had in the middle of the night:

There are two ways in Phase World (or rifts) to go about fighting in the ruins of an urban center.

One is the Coalition way - tromp around in full, heavy MDC armour, incurring prowl penalties and getting hit by sneaky bastards with mortars, RPGs, and hidden sniping nests.

The other way is to wear light armour (no prowl penalties) and go sneaky-sneaky... you shoot and scoot, always use cover, and try to blend into your surroundings.

If the majority of urban combatants go the second way, then a carbine does not have to pound out as much damage as a full-on rifle, because people's armour is lighter. So in the case of the Consortium, a good carbine might be a shortened HI-50 (half range, 1000') with a Coalition-style E-clip canister (I'd say triple the payload - 90 rounds) and you have a cool "tommy-gun" hightech carbine.

[Thinyser]

See... here's another thought I had in the middle of the night:

There are two ways in Phase World (or rifts) to go about fighting in the ruins of an urban center.

One is the Coalition way - tromp around in full, heavy MDC armour, incurring prowl penalties and getting hit by sneaky bastards with mortars, RPGs, and hidden sniping nests.

The other way is to wear light armour (no prowl penalties) and go sneaky-sneaky... you shoot and scoot, always use cover, and try to blend into your surroundings.

If the majority of urban combatants go the second way, then a carbine does not have to pound out as much damage as a full-on rifle, because people's armour is lighter. So in the case of the Consortium, a good carbine might be a shortened HI-50 (half range, 1000') with a Coalition-style E-clip canister (I'd say triple the payload - 90 rounds) and you have a cool "tommy-gun" hightech carbine.

good points on the tactics and the goon idea sounds good too

[Braden Campbell]

So in the case of the Consortium, a good carbine might be a shortened HI-50 (half range, 1000') with a Coalition-style E-clip canister (I'd say triple the payload - 90 rounds) and you have a cool "tommy-gun" hightech carbine.

And it goes a little something like this...

[Jefffar]

My thought is that when it comes to a carbine, one of the key design features is comapct size. The drum magazine gives away that (and in Military issue Tommy Guns the drum was rarely if ever used, a lower capacity, but slim, stick magazine was the order of the day).

For example, if you are pressed against a wall and want to swing the weapon around the corner, the drum mag will interfere.

Now I could see the shortended HI being there, and then also a light support varient of the standard gun with a heavier barrel and the drum magazine to act as a sort of light machinegun.

The drum magazine could be compatable for the whole weapon series, but I doubt it would be standard issue for anything except the light machinegun varient.

[Braden Campbell]

I can see your points...

but in an urban fight, where, since everyone is presumably using cover - and therefore you are all shooting wild at each other - you are going to burn through a lot of ammo hitting nothing. Wouldn't want to be able to carry as many blasts as you could?

[Jefffar]

Well the HI series has a generous ammunition supply and I'd prefer to use the weapon that would not make me expose myself further from my cover when I want to fire off a few shots at the other guy.

Besides, this is the CAW, they don't like excessive spraying of instant death in an area packed with civies.