Cards replacing dice

[Denaes]

I know this works better with a d10 based system like Unisystem, but I had been thinking of something that gave people a little leeway and possibly limited how much luck there was to go around.

You could get as mundane as just having a d20, d100, and some common damage rolls on each card or really go all out with making things a little more "interesting".

My thought is that it would speed up combat a bit - both in letting someone choose what they want to play and where, but also in the lack of all the die rolling.

Of course that could totally backfire and have a player sitting there for 30 seconds debating which card to play.

You could go out and assign each suit to be particularily good for a task like Offense, Defense, Skills, Supernatural come to mind.

Maybe you could just draw a card for each action you were to roll dice for - or maybe you would keep a hand of cards. I would think 3 would be good for BTS. Maybe 5 for more standard Palladium games.

Each card will have:

A Skill % roll
A d20 Offensive Roll (used for mundane attacks)
A d20 Defensive roll (mundane defense like dodge/parry/roll/etc)
A % for the amount of damage you deal with a few common values like d6, 2d6, etc.

Maybe even have something like a perk and/or drawback that work until the end of a time frame (round, minute, location, day, etc)... Like if you played a card that gave you a critical attack it might say that you take -5 to your next defensive roll if one is made within a round.

[Denaes]

Well there are a few reasons.

In some cases rolling dice can break a atmosphere. It pulls you out of the story that bit to pick up dice, roll them, having everyone hearing a clanking plastic, count them and then get to adding in their total. A lot of games - especially D&D - this isn't an issue. The game isn't immersive. It's meant to be played with minis, at a table.

I have nothing about dice in general, but they do detract from a certain atmosphere.

Another thing, especially true with a d20 roll, is that it's extremely random. You're just as likely to get a 1 or a 20 or a 10. Again, this may be your thing. A good portion of gamers really don't like that amount of randomness and use a 2-3 die mechanic. Rather than 1d20, using 2d10 which favors 7-13 or so in a bell curve of probability.

In this case, cards where you hold a hand, help you control when you'll do well or poorly. If you have 3 cards and two "criticle fumbles" in your hand you can play the other card.

In one sense, the idea I had detracts a little from the immersion into a game because it adds a more tactical element by giving you a degree of choices as to when you'll play a card rather than just being a random number.

I think the tactical choices of positive/negative side effects and cards good for certain things could be neat, but where it really shines is that the GM can stack the probabilities as well. You can assign how many crit successes vs crit failures there are in the deck. How many other special cards there might be. They can set the majority of the cards to more average "rolls".

It also allows you to card count a bit. If you're using up all of your best cards, you know you're using up all of your luck. This might let players choose where to fail and succeed as they wish to help the story along and make it more interesting rather than just "whoops, another 3".

I mean in the end it's just preference. Why use cards? Why use dice? Different pro's & con's. I say too random you say "benefit" I say "drawback". I say to tactical you say "Yes Please", I say "No Thanks"

[Sir Neil]

It's been tried. TSR's SAGA system was used for Dragonlance and for Marvel Superheroes. It failed.

I liked it, though. Marvel SAGA is my favorite supers game, and I've also run two BTS adventures using it.

[Library Ogre]

Part of the failure of TSR's SAGA system, however, came from the general impossibility of doing things. While the base difficulty to hit a bear was 8, when everything was modified, your actually should have been getting the equivalent of a level just for damaging a bear. Not killing it. Damaging it. Each time.

However, a card system could work. Say, you hold a number of cards equal to your level+3. Each card has 3 numbers on it... a d20 number, a d100 number, and a d6 number. You lay down your cards and, depending on what you're doing, you get a certain result. Perhaps include a few cards in there that make everyone completely redeal their hands whenever they're found (shuffling out bad cards, or keeping people from hoarding good cards). Suits which are suited to certain things would also allow people to use relatively bad cards effectively... my 1 of Mind may be really bad, usually, but it's not horrible to use to activate a low-cost psychic power, since I'll get a bonus card for it.

It could work. You just have to design your system right. TSR, at least for Dragonlance, did not.

[Ridley]

i dont personaly like the idea. Part of the fun of role-playing is rolling dice. And someone could also screw with his cards, and know what order he will drw them in.

[Denaes]

It's been tried. TSR's SAGA system was used for Dragonlance and for Marvel Superheroes. It failed.

No offense, but SAGA wasn't the only published RPG to use cards. Even if it failed only because of the card mechanic, that wouldn't mean that nobody liked cards or that they don't work. I recall that Marvel flopped for far more reasons than this one mechanic. Most people hated the new dragonlances setting and the overall system. So I don't think it was only the cards that failed.

There have been other successful games with cards, Witchcraft and Castle Falkenstein are two examples. Witchcraft has two resolution systems, a d10 and a deck of cards. Both are pretty popular and the cards work with the games ambiance.

And published games are neither here nor there. I won't let an idea I think is neat be determined on the merits of how well another vaguely similar mechanic, system and game was designed, marketed and distributed.

i dont personaly like the idea. Part of the fun of role-playing is rolling dice.

I think all the fun of role playing is role playing with random elements. I know some people like to roll dice, but that's not roleplaying.

I also like tabletop simulations that throw some role playing in like D&D as well. Rolling dice is fun, but so long as there is a decent randomization mechanic, it really doesn't matter.

And someone could also screw with his cards, and know what order he will drw them in.

What does having cheaters playing a game have to do with an alternate randomization mechanic?

Its far easier to roll a die and lie about the score when nobody is looking closely with the "quick scoop" or "roll into an obstructing object" techniques.

Then there is the "keep rolling 'to see what would happen' and then ***** about the confusion it caused when you roll crappy because you weren't rolling 'for real' yet or you randomly made a last roll 'for real' in advance of his turn and then get pissed when ask him to actually roll his die after he declairs his action"

What you say would be possible if everyone had seperate decks. Thats a consideration. I would have one deck personally. Yeah you can still stack & cheat, but it's hard and really less important because you have a hand of cards to play when you find them appropriate. I think if an idea like I had were used, it wouldn't even be easy to stack a deck in advance. With an idea like Nexx had with special cards for swapping hands and reshuffling and whatnot, the point is even more moot.

I think that if you don't trust your friends and that bothers you, then I think the fact that you can't trust them is far more disturbing than them altering a random number in a game of make believe.

[Denaes]

Part of the failure of TSR's SAGA system, however, came from the general impossibility of doing things. While the base difficulty to hit a bear was 8, when everything was modified, your actually should have been getting the equivalent of a level just for damaging a bear. Not killing it. Damaging it. Each time.

sounds like the system could end up quite the same using dice as well. I'm not sure, never played that.

The only games I've played with cards are Deadlands, Witchcraft/AFMBE & Castle Falkenstein. Each was a fun rewarding experience. It was honestly just different to not have to worry as much soley on blind crapshoots every time you roll.

However, a card system could work. Say, you hold a number of cards equal to your level+3. Each card has 3 numbers on it... a d20 number, a d100 number, and a d6 number. You lay down your cards and, depending on what you're doing, you get a certain result.

Not a fan of Level + 3. Not bad for level 1, but... in the off chance someone actually had level 10 characters, that would be 13 cards. Just a lot to hold and keep track of.

How would damage work with the d6 number? Like if you had 3d6 weapon and the number on your card was 3 you would have 9 damage (3 dice x 3 damage) or you would have to put down three cards for three different values? You could really go through a deck fast that way.

Perhaps include a few cards in there that make everyone completely redeal their hands whenever they're found (shuffling out bad cards, or keeping people from hoarding good cards).

I like the idea of reshuffle or even exhange hands type cards.

One idea I had to prevent people from just hoarding Critical Failures would be some way where the GM might say something like the only way the GM can score a Critical on a player would be if they had a Crit Failure in their hand... or some some mechanic. Maybe a card would be in the deck and punish those hoarding bad cards. Something worse than actually playing the cards would be. That would really fit in with a BTS feel of more human people who can screw up... sometimes big.

Suits which are suited to certain things would also allow people to use relatively bad cards effectively... my 1 of Mind may be really bad, usually, but it's not horrible to use to activate a low-cost psychic power, since I'll get a bonus card for it.

Sounds good.

I'd like the idea of each card having someone good and bad on them as well. Like a "Mind" card might give a bonus for being used mentally, but a penalty when used offensively. But that might be a bit much and really involve having custom cards printed out.

It could work. You just have to design your system right. TSR, at least for Dragonlance, did not.

Well the system is already there... I'm not really talking about rewriting the palladium system, just an alternate mechanic for generating those random numbers with possible side effects.

[Library Ogre]

The only games I've played with cards are Deadlands, Witchcraft/AFMBE & Castle Falkenstein. Each was a fun rewarding experience. It was honestly just different to not have to worry as much soley on blind crapshoots every time you roll.

Of those, I've only played Deadlands, which didn't rely entirely on the cards. However, Deadlands' system was wonky in other ways (like someone with a 3D12 in Dexterity actually became a WORSE shot by learning how to shoot, since they went down to 1D12).

Not a fan of Level + 3. Not bad for level 1, but... in the off chance someone actually had level 10 characters, that would be 13 cards. Just a lot to hold and keep track of.

True, but it provides low-level characters with a few options, and high-level characters with a lot of power. It's a bit to keep track of, but it's fairly easy to do, especially given Palladium's slow level gain rate.

How would damage work with the d6 number? Like if you had 3d6 weapon and the number on your card was 3 you would have 9 damage (3 dice x 3 damage) or you would have to put down three cards for three different values? You could really go through a deck fast that way.

How should I know? I made it up on the spot.

Seriously, though, I would say your solution of XD6, with X being the multiplier, wouldn't be a bad solution.

One idea I had to prevent people from just hoarding Critical Failures would be some way where the GM might say something like the only way the GM can score a Critical on a player would be if they had a Crit Failure in their hand... or some some mechanic. Maybe a card would be in the deck and punish those hoarding bad cards. Something worse than actually playing the cards would be. That would really fit in with a BTS feel of more human people who can screw up... sometimes big.

Not bad, but it needs a mechanic that prevents people from taking pointless actions to burn cards. My idea is to have cards have wildly different values if used for different things... your card may have a 1 on a D6, but a 15 on a d20 and a 60 on percentile... meaning you probably don't want to use it on a d6 roll, but it might be worth it on a percentile, and it's pretty good for a d20. However, if the card were aspected to a certain kind of action (say, it was really good at inflicting damage), then you could put it down on a D6 roll, and hope that your luck would make it worthwhile.

It's a system that has a lot of bugs in it; I'm not used to thinking of probabilities with cards, just dice.

I'd like the idea of each card having someone good and bad on them as well. Like a "Mind" card might give a bonus for being used mentally, but a penalty when used offensively. But that might be a bit much and really involve having custom cards printed out.

Not if you limit it to 4 suits.... Mind, Body, Spirit and Magic, or some such. You could aspect things that way, and simply say that cards are worth X amount for certain things... so Hearts are worth twice their value for damage, but nine times face when used for skills.

[Denaes]

Of those, I've only played Deadlands, which didn't rely entirely on the cards. However, Deadlands' system was wonky in other ways (like someone with a 3D12 in Dexterity actually became a WORSE shot by learning how to shoot, since they went down to 1D12).

Yeah, I think thats the same dude who did savage worlds... which had the exact same problem where Stats & Skills were measured in dice. I played once at a convention and my friend freaked on the GM.

"Why the -bleep- do you always give me the -bleepist- characters!? If the default for the skill is your attribute, why would I pay to have a lower value!?" and yes, we knew the GM.

The game fell apart when the Orc with an Intelligence of d4 wasn't interested in the detective work we were doing and kept wandering off and annoying the GM... and my rogues logic of "if killers are in the haunted house, why don't we torch it and kill what comes out" were squealched by the suddenly flame retardent rickety victorian style house. Then one of the players asked the GM if he could have the character sheet and stole it when the GM said no... ahh, convention games are great

[Killer Cyborg]

Heck, why not Tarot Cards?

[Library Ogre]

Heck, why not Tarot Cards?

More expensive to produce.

[Denaes]

Heck, why not Tarot Cards?

Tarot cards are perfectly acceptable. In fact I think some games are meant for Tarot but work with playing cards... I think Witchcraft is set up for Tarot.

But they are expensive and sometimes a non-comfortable size, though they do fit the atmosphere for a game like BTS far better.

[Sir Neil]

No offense, but SAGA wasn't the only published RPG to use cards. Even if it failed only because of the card mechanic, that wouldn't mean that nobody liked cards or that they don't work.

*shrugs* SAGA and 1st edition Changeling are the only games I knew of that used cards, and I'd forgotten about Changeling until now.

The group seemed to like playing BTS with cards, it just felt wrong to have comicbook characters plastered on them when you're using them to run a horror game.

[Denaes]

*shrugs* SAGA and 1st edition Changeling are the only games I knew of that used cards, and I'd forgotten about Changeling until now.

Did changing actually have rules for cards to play the game? I know they had those annoying as sin "bunk cards" to cast magic.

The group seemed to like playing BTS with cards, it just felt wrong to have comicbook characters plastered on them when you're using them to run a horror game.

I think cards can help lend to the atmosphere, but you really need the right cards. Just a game where you don't want to overtly leave the atmosphere of the game to chuck a die.

Also I see playing with cards as far more likely to break the tabletop chain and possibly graduate into a low lit living room with comfy chairs.

Nightbane or BTS would fit well with cards overall, but you're right - the type of cards can add/detract from the theme as well.

I think a plain set of playing cards is like the neutral. Having them with specialized designs/pictures or even Tarot cards could add a lot of atmosphere to a game if they were the proper feel.

Some decks that might add to a game:
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/lovecraft/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/777/
http://www.unclesgames.com/images/produ ... 0025_1.jpg
http://www.unclesgames.com/images/produ ... 066335.jpg (a more old fashioned feel)
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/carnivale/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/one-world/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/magus/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/di-purgatorio/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/gothic/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/vertigo/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/gothic-vargo/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/savage/
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/giger-baphomet/