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What would it take to alter a fantasy RPG to carry over the dark themes from BTS?

Magic that doesn't always work? Magic that is more of a mystery?

Psionics that aren't as overt?

Weaker characters? Or stronger opponents?

For me personally it seems like everything BTS/Cthulu style should be 1800 timeframe and newer. I don't know.

It doesn't take a whole lot to turn fantasy into BTS/horror fantasy - the main key is that it be a low fantasy environment rather than high fantasy.

Basically, play most of the world as "mundane," like it were the real world in the middle ages. No actual magic, monsters, gods, demons, or paranormal things, just a whole heck of a lot of superstition and fear, and rumors of the unknown.

To make it a horror fantasy setting, simply make all those superstitions and rumors true.

Suddenly, the european witch-hunts are pursuing real witches. The maps that show giant sea-monsters are accurate. The whispers of vampires are true. Instantly, you've transformed the real world into a genuine horror world, where humanity is prey for menaces that are far beyond most of our powers to comprehend, much less fight.

People that like playing some high-fantasy elf wizard-fighter-thief will hate it, because that type of character just doesn't work as a PC in low fantasy, but for folks who like a gritty, difficult world, it's great.

If you're serious about running horror-fantasy, you probably want to check out Heroes of Horror. It's a D&D book, but the concepts should be easy to translate to Palladium's knockoff. One caveat, however: if you start reading d20 books, you may end up leaving Palladium for a system that makes sense.

Beelzebozo wrote:If you're serious about running horror-fantasy, you probably want to check out Heroes of Horror. It's a D&D book, but the concepts should be easy to translate to Palladium's knockoff. One caveat, however: if you start reading d20 books, you may end up leaving Palladium for a system that makes sense.

I will also give mad props to Heros of Horror - damned (get it?) fine book. And the Dread Necromancer is FINALLY a Necromantic class worth getting...

On the whole, I would have to agree that generally speaking, high fantasy (like cool swords and magic) and horror do not mix well. Take the Ravenloft setting, for example - it works good for a more Victorian time-frame, but if you throw in all the "normal" fantasy classes it sort of falls apart.

I would say that one of the most important aspects is the one that has already been brought up - keeping the setting mostly grounded in reality (which means that the PC's more than likely aren't going to be what might be described as "overly powerful" - or even "mostly above average" really...).
That gives each player a much better grasp on his or her character's mortality, which means that they should expect to end most encounters one of two ways - really, REALLY badly hurt or having to run like heck to keep from getting killed.

Speakng of which, the most recent incarnation of Ravenloft (by Sword & Sorcery/White Wolf) actually did a good job of combining traditional fantasy and the Victorian & Renaissance realms. The Gazeteer series in particular would be worth getting if you're serious about this idea - very little in the way of mechanics aside from NPCs. Some of the various Dark Age World of Darkness books may be useful, as well (yeah, that's a lot of White Wolf stuff, so if you're not careful you may end up with the unnatural urge to do such things as slit your wrists and go shopping at Hot Topic). Cthulhu Dark Ages is quite neat, too (and the BRP CoC skill system is similar enough to Palladium's to aid in conversion), for the more "go crazy and die" level of horror.

As far as resources made by Big Kev, sorry. By its title, Land of the Damned may be worth getting for horror-fantasy, but I really don't know. Through the Glass Darkly, although for Nightbane, does have some elements and flavor text to give you ideas about the true costs of doing business in magic.

The key with horror-fantasy isn't necessarily keeping magic and such out of the hands of player characters...it's emphasizing that such powers - including magic weapons - come with a terrible, terrible price. Casting spells may cause damage to a person's mind after a while. Mystic weapons are produced by blood and sacrifice, and are usually cursed in ways that slowly twist their users toward evil. Horror isn't a matter of what is or isn't present in the setting...it's a matter of tone and feel.

I'm not sure if Land of the Damned is horrific at all. It deals with undead and demons a lot thought.

Through the Glass Darkly has been my favorite Palladium magic suppliment since it came out years ago. It's actually a half crappy Nightbane suppliment because it starts contradicting the very premis of the game. But it's a super solid book for the OCCs, RCCs, New Magic & rules all with flavour. Now that I think of it, you really don't need a magic book for BTS if you have that.

I haven't seen Heroes of Horror... might check that out. d20 games really don't make any more sense (in terms of logical rules) than Palladium, so I don't have to worry about that... The way they describe a super complex system that contains like 100 pages of rules so that it is clear and doesn't leave you thinking that there is more text that was accidently ommited is admirable. Certainly a goal I wish Palladum could meet with their 9 pages of rules.

Ravenloft pissed me off... or maybe it was the GM running it.

Basically I was a Monk/Priest (2e rules with some players options) from Ferun. I'm not sure who was my god off the top of my head. It was a god of Justice. And I was basically a tool for justice. Not lawful, just right. An attempt was made to follow laws unless they were unjust. Maybe my god was Helm? Or maybe Helm was the paladins god.

Apparently the extremely Christian GM (who majored in Divinity in college and could run a rocking game involving Christianity) decided that, in his mind, Ravenloft followed the morality of Christianity.

So I meet some people who killed dozens. Self admitted murderers with no remorse. We kill some, capture the rest. We're like a weeks walk from any town. Fine, I'll be fair about this. One by one I pull one off to the side and ask them if they're willing to turn over a new leaf with or without my aid. Not if they were going to be choir boys, just take my mercy/compassion into their hearts and ponder it. Each and every one of them went on about raping my mother or eating me or how they couldn't wait to kill again. I mean I wasn't using sense motive checks, if they at least paid me lip service I would have let them go.

So one by one I questioned them, and one by one I snapped their neck in a most painless death when they revealed they were remorseless monsters who would slaughter innocents given a chance.

So I had to start doing powers checks because I killed evil people in full accordance with my religion. The GM said something about the local laws (that we were unaware of) stated that a trial was in order.

I ended up turning into a half demonic being who's alignment went from Neutral Good to like Neutral Evil because "the land" thougth it was an evil act to kill murderers out of combat (but not in combat) and it was apparently more of a good act to release sociopathic unrepentant murderers than to kill them. I suppose I was supposed to give them each a knife one by one and as they attack me I kill them in a far more painful way.

After that it was fun going bonkers killing things with my martial arts demon until I had to showdown with the paladin and mocked him with his own religion before snapping his neck

Denaes wrote:What would it take to alter a fantasy RPG to carry over the dark themes from BTS?

Magic that doesn't always work? Magic that is more of a mystery?

Psionics that aren't as overt?

Weaker characters? Or stronger opponents?

For me personally it seems like everything BTS/Cthulu style should be 1800 timeframe and newer. I don't know.

The ISP rules from 2E should do a good job of altering a traditional fantasy RPG. Just apply them to PPE as well.

Marrowlight wrote:

Denaes wrote:What would it take to alter a fantasy RPG to carry over the dark themes from BTS?

Magic that doesn't always work? Magic that is more of a mystery?

Psionics that aren't as overt?

Weaker characters? Or stronger opponents?

For me personally it seems like everything BTS/Cthulu style should be 1800 timeframe and newer. I don't know.

The ISP rules from 2E should do a good job of altering a traditional fantasy RPG. Just apply them to PPE as well.

I haven't seen them, but it seemed like the intent was to make characters rather weak sources of power, individually, but gathering extra power from Supernatural Places/Beings.

That does seem interesting, but I'm more worried that it's a really different mechanic (ie, no real Palladium basis) that wasn't fully explained. I've heard that a lot of people don't like that it leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Maybe a FAQ/Erratta can clear that up, but going by experience, I doubt it.

Denaes wrote:Ravenloft pissed me off... or maybe it was the GM running it.

Basically I was a Monk/Priest (2e rules with some players options) from Ferun. I'm not sure who was my god off the top of my head. It was a god of Justice. And I was basically a tool for justice. Not lawful, just right. An attempt was made to follow laws unless they were unjust. Maybe my god was Helm? Or maybe Helm was the paladins god.

Sounds like Tyr, actually. Might be Torm, but Helm is the god of guardians.

So one by one I questioned them, and one by one I snapped their neck in a most painless death when they revealed they were remorseless monsters who would slaughter innocents given a chance.

So I had to start doing powers checks because I killed evil people in full accordance with my religion. The GM said something about the local laws (that we were unaware of) stated that a trial was in order.

Actually, this has nothing to do with local laws, but is right within the rules for powers checks. Murder, Premeditated or Non-Brutal to Evil NPCs or Monsters (which is what this sounds like) has a 2% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers. The threat itself was not an issue (no power check), but murder of even the evil counts against you.

I ended up turning into a half demonic being who's alignment went from Neutral Good to like Neutral Evil because "the land" thougth it was an evil act to kill murderers out of combat (but not in combat) and it was apparently more of a good act to release sociopathic unrepentant murderers than to kill them. I suppose I was supposed to give them each a knife one by one and as they attack me I kill them in a far more painful way.

Actually, you were in a very tough spot; breaking one of the tenets of your religion carries a 5% powers check. Your best bet was probably to keep them prisoner, if you wanted to avoid any powers checks.

MrNexx wrote:Actually, this has nothing to do with local laws, but is right within the rules for powers checks. Murder, Premeditated or Non-Brutal to Evil NPCs or Monsters (which is what this sounds like) has a 2% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers. The threat itself was not an issue (no power check), but murder of even the evil counts against you.

So we should have all been demons because we'd ended up killing dozens of people and probobly hundreds of intelligent non-human-things.

Denaes wrote:

MrNexx wrote:Actually, this has nothing to do with local laws, but is right within the rules for powers checks. Murder, Premeditated or Non-Brutal to Evil NPCs or Monsters (which is what this sounds like) has a 2% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers. The threat itself was not an issue (no power check), but murder of even the evil counts against you.

So we should have all been demons because we'd ended up killing dozens of people and probobly hundreds of intelligent non-human-things.

No, because self-defense doesn't count; "the act is a necessity forced on the character by his situation." Your example wasn't a necessity, but an expediency.

MrNexx wrote:

Denaes wrote:

MrNexx wrote:Actually, this has nothing to do with local laws, but is right within the rules for powers checks. Murder, Premeditated or Non-Brutal to Evil NPCs or Monsters (which is what this sounds like) has a 2% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers. The threat itself was not an issue (no power check), but murder of even the evil counts against you.

So we should have all been demons because we'd ended up killing dozens of people and probobly hundreds of intelligent non-human-things.

No, because self-defense doesn't count; "the act is a necessity forced on the character by his situation." Your example wasn't a necessity, but an expediency.

So how is it different to to hunt down a were creature so you can kill it from having it captured and killing it? You're still planning on killing it, only in the case that provokes evil, you're giving him a chance to live while the case that doesn't provoke evil you're not.

Or when you plan out a way to kill a church of evil priests because they're preying on townsfolk. No check for killing evil priests in combat, but kill an evil sociopath to prevent him from murdering innocents and you've got hooves.

Self Defense is when someone attacks you and you kill them defending yourself, not when you hunt them down and provoke a fight and defend yourself in a fight.

Denaes wrote:So how is it different to to hunt down a were creature so you can kill it from having it captured and killing it? You're still planning on killing it, only in the case that provokes evil, you're giving him a chance to live while the case that doesn't provoke evil you're not.

Or when you plan out a way to kill a church of evil priests because they're preying on townsfolk. No check for killing evil priests in combat, but kill an evil sociopath to prevent him from murdering innocents and you've got hooves.

Self Defense is when someone attacks you and you kill them defending yourself, not when you hunt them down and provoke a fight and defend yourself in a fight.

To paraphrase Alejandro, "This is D&D, it doesn't have to make sense."

Atramentus wrote:I for one wouldn't change any of the rules or classes or anything to turn the Fantasy game into a horror. It's all about the mood, and then the consequences and then the actions.

<snippage of good stuff>

I agree that to an extent, it's about how to tell the story, but there are mechanics/classes that help.

Primarily I think horror is rooted in fear and fear is rooted in the unknown. Fear that you don't know something and that you might not be enough. Fear is something you don't understand or flies in the face of what you believe is possible.

The standard canned magic thats 100% perfect and always a known commodity. No tension or suspense. No tradeoffs, no uncertainty (unless you change the rules). Even the style of magic is rooted in perfection and all knowing.

Compare that to a more horror based game. Take Through the Glass Darkly. Uncertain magic. Magic that can go awry. Magic that can fail. Magic has it's costs and tradeoffs. Most of the spells in TGD involve the same sort of results, but the road to get there is often more vicereal and

So going back to what makes fear, you're talking about changing the setting from one where slight danger is common, people feel safe, people know the world they live in and horrific (to us) elements are blasse. Oh a zombie, get out the iron shaft. True, as canon, the commoner isn't as knowledgable as the adventurer, but if they saw a zombie it wouldn't be out of their realm of belief and wouldn't be 100% unexpected.

Thats one problem that a fantasy game has in regards to horror. The supernatural not only exists, but is a known commodity and there are often defenses known against the supernatural. Add in the fact that Palladium Fantasy (in this case) has actual magic item shops in larger towns and that only supports the fact that the supernatural is far more commonplace.

I think, magic/psi aside, the biggest difference is how the GM runs an adventure. Goblins may suck statistically, but there is a big difference between a 15 Goblin bloodbath and 15 Goblins shadowing the players and describing the elements.

As far as rules/classes go for say PFRPG, they're fine in general. It's the setting and tone you give it... as well as how commonplace everything is. The Magic would need to be changed. Maybe just unsettling effects added... uncertainty... a lack of "perfection" spells. Maybe components that are slightly questionable.

I think Diabolism & Summoning magic work 100% for a horror feel. It's the elemental/common magics that don't feel right

Beelzebozo wrote:If you're serious about running horror-fantasy, you probably want to check out Heroes of Horror. It's a D&D book, but the concepts should be easy to translate to Palladium's knockoff. One caveat, however: if you start reading d20 books, you may end up leaving Palladium for a system that makes sense.

Huh, that's funny. When I started reading palladium books, I left D&D for a system that makes sense.

Stattick wrote:

Beelzebozo wrote:One caveat, however: if you start reading d20 books, you may end up leaving Palladium for a system that makes sense.

Huh, that's funny. When I started reading palladium books, I left D&D for a system that makes sense.

Which system is that?

Denaes wrote:

Stattick wrote:

Beelzebozo wrote:One caveat, however: if you start reading d20 books, you may end up leaving Palladium for a system that makes sense.

Huh, that's funny. When I started reading palladium books, I left D&D for a system that makes sense.

Which system is that?

Palladium

I'd go into the reasons, but no one's gonna read a 10 page response. Personally, I won't play D&D, but hey, I won't listen to opera either. Do what makes you happy, and make fun of everyone else.

Stattick wrote:

Denaes wrote:
Which system is that?

Palladium

I'd go into the reasons, but no one's gonna read a 10 page response. Personally, I won't play D&D, but hey, I won't listen to opera either. Do what makes you happy, and make fun of everyone else.

Personal preferences for system aside, are you saying that the way palladium explains their rules make more sense or you just feel that the system makes more sense for you?

Denaes wrote:Personal preferences for system aside, are you saying that the way palladium explains their rules make more sense or you just feel that the system makes more sense for you?

The system makes more sense to me. Palladium really needs a full time editor, and some test players though. They leave in WAY too many typos, and confusing stuff. Dispite that, the system as a whole makes more sense then D&D. Especially now that D&D has the new d20 system out. For one thing, feats ruined the game. To play, you not only have to consider what your character is, but what you want your character to become by 15th or 20th level. Every skill, and every feat must be carefully chosen to continue on your route to munkin class X (I think think they call them prestige classes or something), or to munchkin feat Y.

I don't like that a first level character will most likely die if the player rolls poorly in combat 4 consecutive times in a roll and the GM isn't fudging his rolls to keep people alive.

I don't like that 1st level wizards only get to caste one spell a day.

I don't like that the whole "spell memorization" thing, and having to lug around a 30 lb spell book, when most wizards are 90 lb weaklings.

I don't like that wizards, the characters with the least amount of hit points, can't wear armor of any kind.

I don't like that all the normal pc races are nearly the same.

I don't like that...

bah screw this. I already said that I'm not going to do a comprehensive list. Basically, in my opinion, palladium is better in almost every regard to d&d.

CJ Carella did a horror Rpg called witchcraft it was interesting and power level was low for a guy who likes to juice up rift's books. check it out some time. Bet he have some good ideas for BTS CJ CJ CJ!!!

runebeo wrote:CJ Carella did a horror Rpg called witchcraft it was interesting and power level was low for a guy who likes to juice up rift's books. check it out some time. Bet he have some good ideas for BTS CJ CJ CJ!!!

Own it. Witchcraft is one of my favorite games. Even though it's for a bit higher power level, the players are still overall weaker than what they face in general.

Also have Armageddon, which is actually higher power. Never played it, but it was a decent read. It's like the Rifts of Witchcraft.

The only thing my friends don't like about Witchcraft is that the only non-human race in the origional book is the Bast. Everyone thinks it's stupid that you can be human... or a cat.

Cats rule... Read up on Baastat sometime (egyptian mythology)... hehe

I think a big thing in a horror game, is that the odds should almost always be stacked high against the PC's. They should really have to think, plan, and pray, simply to keep the body count down. Even if they survive, if they plan poorly, they could easily cause the deaths of hundreds of the "innocent" people they're trying to save.

If you do it right, and then hand the party an easy victory, they'll be jumping at shadows for hours. ("That was TOO easy... Something bad's gonna happen, I feel it.")

Someone else said fear is the key. Yeah. They should never feel safe. They also need to lose some fights too. Or win only do to happenstance and luck.

Imagine, they're holed up in an abandoned keep. Whoever's on watch that night sees a legion of zombies rise from the ground and start marching on the keep. The party barricades itself in, and after a despirate battle that they almost lose, they're saved only by the zombies burying themselves to avoid dawn.

Stattick wrote:Cats rule... Read up on Baastat sometime (egyptian mythology)... hehe

I know about them. My whole group just thinks its stupid that they're the only other race. If there were 3 or 5 races, it wouldn't be an issue. What makes the Baast pertinent to north american games any more than other races? Nothing really. Just an odd choice for the core book.

Stattick wrote:Imagine, they're holed up in an abandoned keep. Whoever's on watch that night sees a legion of zombies rise from the ground and start marching on the keep. The party barricades itself in, and after a despirate battle that they almost lose, they're saved only by the zombies burying themselves to avoid dawn.

This is where I get my stance about magic without consequences being awful for "survival" or "horror" type games.

When I was running a game of Dungeons & Zombies (All Flesh Must Be Eaten's fantasy suppliment using a variation of Witchcraft's magic system) we soon realized that when you could sense the dead, control them, and throw bolts of fire at them, much the fear & tension is lost.

If/when I run D&Z again, I'm going to tightly regulate the magic choices or dissalow magic in total.