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Here's the way it works.

Juicers have a minimum guaranteed PS of 22. Normal people in that range have a x20 multiple to carry things (double that to lift). So if the juicer can lift four times that, they can carry their PSx80 and lift twice that.

Some here, like Nekira, believe it to be the way you described, with them only being able to carry their PSx40, but I myself disagree.

Borgs on the other hand, even though they are made of MDC materials, can lift far less. Those with normal bionic strength appear to be no stronger than a person made of flesh and blood, getting the x20, (though it is never really said, nor is it said if this if this multiple is applied to all mechanical PS levels of just those at 16 or higher). However, big combat oriented borgs are blessed with Robotic PS which gives them a x25 on their carry multiple.

Edit: Oh and by the way, Welcome to the Borards!

Dead Boy wrote:Edit: Oh and by the way, Welcome to the Borards!

oh, lets not scare this one away.

femfan wrote:Hello All,

So exactly how much can Juicers lift anyway? What's the formula? According to the description, they can lift 4x's what a normal person can. So... normal people can lift 10 x's their PS, right? So Juicers can lift, what: their PS x's 40?

Normal Characters can carry 10x their PS, and Juicers can carry 40x their PS.

'Cause that's more than Robots can and they're supposed to be stronger than Juicers (I think!) This is something that has never been covered in any of the books, even the new one..and it's kind've annoying

The varying strength levels really make no sense and should be abolished.

Dead Boy wrote:Here's the way it works.

Juicers have a minimum guaranteed PS of 22. Normal people in that range have a x20 multiple to carry things (double that to lift). So if the juicer can lift four times that, they can carry their PSx80 and lift twice that.

No. EXTRODANARY people with a PS of 22 can carry x20. it's quite clear about that.

Yes, but the rules, it's actually impossible for a "normal" person to have a PS of 22. but that's a seperate contradiction.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

femfan wrote:Hello All,

So exactly how much can Juicers lift anyway? What's the formula? According to the description, they can lift 4x's what a normal person can. So... normal people can lift 10 x's their PS, right? So Juicers can lift, what: their PS x's 40?

Normal Characters can carry 10x their PS, and Juicers can carry 40x their PS.

'Cause that's more than Robots can and they're supposed to be stronger than Juicers (I think!) This is something that has never been covered in any of the books, even the new one..and it's kind've annoying

The varying strength levels really make no sense and should be abolished.

Rifts needs to adopt HU2's Strength classes actually.

Extraordinary PS carry PSx100, lift PSx200
Superhuman PS carry PSx200, Lift PSx300
Supernatural PS carry PSx300, lift PSx500

Then Add a New Strength Class :
BRUTE Strength = Carry PSx50, Lift PSx100

Rewrite or just add non "Supernatural/Creatures of Magic" in Rifts actually have Brute Strength instead of Supernatural. This solves the problem of too many creatures having Supernatural PS in Rifts. Supernatural PS should be RARE as hell. More Beings should be switched to Brute, Extraordinary, Superhuman PS like in HU2.

TechnoGothic wrote:

The varying strength levels really make no sense and should be abolished.

Rifts needs to adopt HU2's Strength classes actually.

No.

Shadow_otm wrote:I think the reasoning to there being so many creatues with SN PS on RIFTS Earth is the amount of magical energy currently present on it.

What the heck does that have to do with this topic?

Most Juicers do not have Supernatural Strength.

~ Josh

Shadow_otm wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:I think the reasoning to there being so many creatues with SN PS on RIFTS Earth is the amount of magical energy currently present on it.

What the heck does that have to do with this topic?

Most Juicers do not have Supernatural Strength.

~ Josh

It was in response to Technogothic's thoughts on creatues with Supernatural Strength.

Ah, gotcha, sorry.



~ Josh

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:Here's the way it works.

Juicers have a minimum guaranteed PS of 22. Normal people in that range have a x20 multiple to carry things (double that to lift). So if the juicer can lift four times that, they can carry their PSx80 and lift twice that.

No. EXTRODANARY people with a PS of 22 can carry x20. it's quite clear about that.

*sigh* Here we go agian.

Ok, let's go directly to what the book says and go from there. Under the Juicer ability of Super-Enturance it says...
"Can lift and carry four times more than a normal person of equivalent strength..." (RUE 79)
Note that it doesn't just say a "normal person". It says a normal person of equivalent strength. A Juicer's minimum PS is 22. For any other person of equivalent strength (SN and Robotic not withstanding) that would give them a x20 multiple for calculting how much they can carry. Four times that is x80. And it's just that simple.

Dead Boy wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:Here's the way it works.

Juicers have a minimum guaranteed PS of 22. Normal people in that range have a x20 multiple to carry things (double that to lift). So if the juicer can lift four times that, they can carry their PSx80 and lift twice that.

No. EXTRODANARY people with a PS of 22 can carry x20. it's quite clear about that.

*sigh* Here we go agian.

Ok, let's go directly to what the book says and go from there. Under the Juicer ability of Super-Enturance it says...
"Can lift and carry four times more than a normal person of equivalent strength..." (RUE 79)
Note that it doesn't just say a "normal person". It says a normal person of equivalent strength. A Juicer's minimum PS is 22. For any other person of equivalent strength (SN and Robotic not withstanding) that would give them a x20 multiple for calculting how much they can carry. Four times that is x80. And it's just that simple.

Which is why she said:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Yes, but the rules, it's actually impossible for a "normal" person to have a PS of 22. but that's a seperate contradiction.

Because it IS impossible for a Normal Person to have a PS of 22.
According to the rules, a person with PS of 17+ is no longer a Normal Person, they are a Strong Person.
It doesn't matter that a Normal Person can't get a PS as high as a Juicer, only that a juicer uses 4x the same PS to weight ratio as a Normal Person.

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches,

So?

plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way.

The maximum PS score for a normal human is 50, so that's not an issue.

And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

Why not?

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches, plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way. And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

However, Normal clearly refers to the catagory of NORMAL strength.

a NORMAL strength person with a PS of 22 would carry 220 lbs. and lift 440 lbs.

the fact that no normal person would have that high is irrelevant. they don't HAVE to have it, sinse it's refering to a CATAGORY and not an actual PERSON.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches, plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way. And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

However, Normal clearly refers to the catagory of NORMAL strength.

a NORMAL strength person with a PS of 22 would carry 220 lbs. and lift 440 lbs.

the fact that no normal person would have that high is irrelevant. they don't HAVE to have it, sinse it's refering to a CATAGORY and not an actual PERSON.

I believe the wording is "normal person" not "normal strength person" or "normal strength catagory person"... and a "normal person" with a 22 strength can carry 440 lbs.

Thinyser wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches, plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way. And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

However, Normal clearly refers to the catagory of NORMAL strength.

a NORMAL strength person with a PS of 22 would carry 220 lbs. and lift 440 lbs.

the fact that no normal person would have that high is irrelevant. they don't HAVE to have it, sinse it's refering to a CATAGORY and not an actual PERSON.

I believe the wording is "normal person" not "normal strength person" or "normal strength catagory person"... and a "normal person" with a 22 strength can carry 440 lbs.

there is no such thing as a normal person wiht a PS of 22 as they're automatically reclassified as extrodanary.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches, plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way. And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

However, Normal clearly refers to the catagory of NORMAL strength.

a NORMAL strength person with a PS of 22 would carry 220 lbs. and lift 440 lbs.

the fact that no normal person would have that high is irrelevant. they don't HAVE to have it, sinse it's refering to a CATAGORY and not an actual PERSON.

I believe the wording is "normal person" not "normal strength person" or "normal strength catagory person"... and a "normal person" with a 22 strength can carry 440 lbs.

there is no such thing as a normal person wiht a PS of 22 as they're automatically reclassified as extrodanary.

as far as strength class maybe but they are still a "normal person"...

Thinyser wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:No.

I disagree with you.

That's your perogative, but I'm curious why you think that convoluted mix of different types of strength are any simpler or better than only having ONE type of strength. What's the advantage?
Should ALL attributes have 3-4 different categories?
Why or why not?

If it didn't work the current way then they'd have to give a higher strength value to all the robots and to all the creatures with supernatural strength if they wished to keep them physically stronger to the point of lifting so much and inflicting MDC with punches, plus some munchkin would try to find a way to inflict MDC punches with a normal human if it was done that way. And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

However, Normal clearly refers to the catagory of NORMAL strength.

a NORMAL strength person with a PS of 22 would carry 220 lbs. and lift 440 lbs.

the fact that no normal person would have that high is irrelevant. they don't HAVE to have it, sinse it's refering to a CATAGORY and not an actual PERSON.

I believe the wording is "normal person" not "normal strength person" or "normal strength catagory person"... and a "normal person" with a 22 strength can carry 440 lbs.

there is no such thing as a normal person wiht a PS of 22 as they're automatically reclassified as extrodanary.

as far as strength class maybe but they are still a "normal person"...

No, they're extrodanary people.

No, they're extrodanary people.

Nope sorry RUE (p286) says that they are "strong characters" but this is still under the catagory of "normal" strength.

In RUE there is:
Normal Strength: covers "weak" "average" and "strong" people
Augmented Strength: covers juicers, crazies, borgs and some others
Robotic Strength: covers Bots and some others
Supernatural Strength: covers SN creatures and some others (that are rather silly but thats a different debate)

There is no "Extraordinary Strength" Classification nor is there an "Extraordinary People" or "Extraordinary Character" clasification placed on "normal" people over the strength of 16.

They are simply "strong" normal people... thats it.

Make it stop.....

no they are chemically enhanced people

Mech-Viper wrote:no they are chemically enhanced people

well juicers are ofcourse but it doesn't say that people over the 16 number are pumped up on steroids or anything else...

so they are simply "strong" normal people...

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The maximum PS score for a normal human is 50, so that's not an issue.

Really? That stated in a Rifts book somewhere? Page number?

Actually, I was mistaken.

Conversion Book 1, p. 24
"A physical strength of 60 is the absolute PS limit for humanoids not of a supernatural nature."

So I was off by 10 points.

(As far as I know, not later books rule otherwise, although I could be mistaken)

And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

Why not?

Because I think most people would prefer working wtih numbers that generally fall between 1 and 60 instead of 1000 and 6000.

Why?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The maximum PS score for a normal human is 50, so that's not an issue.

Really? That stated in a Rifts book somewhere? Page number?

Actually, I was mistaken.

Conversion Book 1, p. 24
"A physical strength of 60 is the absolute PS limit for humanoids not of a supernatural nature."

So I was off by 10 points.

which is kind of a moot limit anyway, most _SUPERNATURAL_ creatures don't exceed 60 anyway, even alien intelligences generally cap out at 60. the only beings that have more PS than that are the Norse god of Strength, Atlas, and the Hundred Handed, and possibly the Old Ones, but with palladiums consistancy, i'm not sure there...

And I don't think we want to have to calculate everything in Zentradi PS!

Why not?

Because I think most people would prefer working wtih numbers that generally fall between 1 and 60 instead of 1000 and 6000.

Why?

too big numbers don't mean as much to some people. after a certain point, you just stop caring.

So, you have 5436 PS? I have 5400 PS!

uh...what's the significance of that?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:too big numbers don't mean as much to some people. after a certain point, you just stop caring.

So, you have 5436 PS? I have 5400 PS!

uh...what's the significance of that?

About as much difference as between PS 62 and PS 64.
Less difference than PS 10 and PS 15.

Shadow_otm wrote:

femfan wrote:Man! I'm almost sorry that I started all this....well not really. Fans love to
argue. I still don't have an OFFICIAL answer yet, but upon doing further research I discovered that DogBoys can lift twice as much as a normal person....sigh. P.S.X20...if their strength is under 17, and those with a strength of 17 and higher can carry 40 times, and lift twice that....P.S.X80!
Gee and Robotic strength is only 25 X P.S. With Supernatural being only 50 X P.S. for carrying and twice that for lifting.......Okay NOW I'm annoyed.

This is why I prefer the Heros Unlimited carry/lift. (/broken-record)

Amen.

PB just needs to add one more Strength Class. BRUTE. Which would equal to Rifts' supernatural ps in lift/carry.

Ditch "Strong" completely. We do not need it. Normal humans can go up to 60 or 600 lbs which is cool.

Give Dogboys, Crazies and most strong D-bees that are not truely supernatural Brute PS as the default.
Give Juicers and Partial Cyborgs Extraordinary PS, and a few rare d-bees.
Give Full Cyborgs, Robots, Andriods, and the super rare d-bee Superhuman PS.
Give Demons, Dragons, Mega-heroes, Alien Intelligences, and the Rare Superhuman, or Super-D-bee TRUE Supernatural PS.

To me this would almost fix all of Rifts problems.
The other would to SDC/AR/Natural-ARs/PVs instead of MDC.
With Pentraction Values you advoid the Kid damaging a Tank with a rock or baseball agruement. Why, Weapons need a PV of 8 or 9 to even bother to roll for damage is why.
And not everthing in Rifts should NOT require a PV8+ to get hurt. Period. Assigning Natural ARs to alot of the High-tech armors is fine.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which is why she said:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Yes, but the rules, it's actually impossible for a "normal" person to have a PS of 22. but that's a seperate contradiction.

Because it IS impossible for a Normal Person to have a PS of 22.
According to the rules, a person with PS of 17+ is no longer a Normal Person, they are a Strong Person.
It doesn't matter that a Normal Person can't get a PS as high as a Juicer, only that a juicer uses 4x the same PS to weight ratio as a Normal Person.

Not true even in the slightest. A there is no PS limitation on what makes for a "Normal Person" regardless of whether that person has a PS of 15, 30, or 45 for that matter. If you'd check out pg. 284 in RUE you'd even see that that those who possess a Physical Strength of 30 or more fall under the heading of "Ordinary Human Physical Strength", a term that is synominous with Normal Person. There is no distinction between a "Normal Person" or a "Strong Person" anywhere in the book. Not on any single solitary page. However I do see where you go the mistaken idea given the distinction between Normal and Strong characters on 286. It's an easy mistake to make. But no matter how you cut it, a Normal Person is just some guy who isn't augmented, robotic, or supernatural, regardless of how impressive their PS stat is.

Ergo, PSx80 for the Juicers.

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which is why she said:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Yes, but the rules, it's actually impossible for a "normal" person to have a PS of 22. but that's a seperate contradiction.

Because it IS impossible for a Normal Person to have a PS of 22.
According to the rules, a person with PS of 17+ is no longer a Normal Person, they are a Strong Person.
It doesn't matter that a Normal Person can't get a PS as high as a Juicer, only that a juicer uses 4x the same PS to weight ratio as a Normal Person.

Not true even in the slightest. A there is no PS limitation on what makes for a "Normal Person" regardless of whether that person has a PS of 15, 30, or 45 for that matter. If you'd check out pg. 284 in RUE you'd even see that that those who possess a Physical Strength of 30 or more fall under the heading of "Ordinary Human Physical Strength", a term that is synominous with Normal Person.

Not in the contexts we're talking about.

There is no distinction between a "Normal Person" or a "Strong Person" anywhere in the book.

That doesn't mean that there isn't any distinction. Palladium never properly defined their Rate Of Fire terms either, but there are obvious differences there as well.

Not on any single solitary page. However I do see where you go the mistaken idea given the distinction between Normal and Strong characters on 286. It's an easy mistake to make. But no matter how you cut it, a Normal Person is just some guy who isn't augmented, robotic, or supernatural, regardless of how impressive their PS stat is.

Ergo, PSx80 for the Juicers.

Wrong.
In the context of lifting/carrying, there is a clear distinction between "Normal Characters" and "Strong Characters." This is presented every time the books present the lift/carry rules, from the original Rifts book up through RUE (p. 286).
"Normal Characters" carry 10x their PS in pounds.
"Strong Characters" carry 20x their PS in pounds.

Furthermore, look at the end results of our different interpretations. In my interpretation, juicers are stronger than normal people and weaker than supernatural creatures. In your interpretation, they are stronger than normal creatures, and they are stronger than supernatural creatures.
My interpretation leads to the most logical conclusion, because it jibes with the damage output and the existence of Titan Juicers (who, under your interpretation, would be weaker than an ordinary juicer).

Shadow_otm wrote:Okay, lets do get one thing straight, because one person has tried saying that the 18+ range of human PS is "extraordinary". NO! Read HU. In HU a Normal Human can have a strength only up to 30, which does include the strong range of strength. To have extraordinary strength you need to have the so-named power, which also allows humans in HU to break past the normal strength range.

I'm sorry, Heros Unlimited uses a different lift/carry and requirements chart than Rifts, and so is not a basis for comparison. Basically, it can't be legetimatly used.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which is why she said:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Yes, but the rules, it's actually impossible for a "normal" person to have a PS of 22. but that's a seperate contradiction.

Because it IS impossible for a Normal Person to have a PS of 22.
According to the rules, a person with PS of 17+ is no longer a Normal Person, they are a Strong Person.
It doesn't matter that a Normal Person can't get a PS as high as a Juicer, only that a juicer uses 4x the same PS to weight ratio as a Normal Person.

Not true even in the slightest. A there is no PS limitation on what makes for a "Normal Person" regardless of whether that person has a PS of 15, 30, or 45 for that matter. If you'd check out pg. 284 in RUE you'd even see that that those who possess a Physical Strength of 30 or more fall under the heading of "Ordinary Human Physical Strength", a term that is synominous with Normal Person.

Not in the contexts we're talking about.

Not in the context? Dude, that's a "by the book" categorical descriptive listing for all characters who do not posses robtic or supernatural PS. ALL! This speaks directly to the heart of the matter in that it addresses every character that doesn't fit in those other two strength listings as "Ordinary Humans". And ordinary human is a normal person and therefore people with any PS from 3 to 100 in fact fall under the heading of a "Normal Person". Just becaue it doesn't fall under your nerf-happy ideals doesn't make it false or incorrect. This is a definition directly out of the book I'm going by here, as opposed to your opinion, weighted though it may be.

There is no distinction between a "Normal Person" or a "Strong Person" anywhere in the book.

That doesn't mean that there isn't any distinction. Palladium never properly defined their Rate Of Fire terms either, but there are obvious differences there as well.

Not on any single solitary page. However I do see where you go the mistaken idea given the distinction between Normal and Strong characters on 286. It's an easy mistake to make. But no matter how you cut it, a Normal Person is just some guy who isn't augmented, robotic, or supernatural, regardless of how impressive their PS stat is.

My interpretation leads to the most logical conclusion, because it jibes with the damage output and the existence of Titan Juicers (who, under your interpretation, would be weaker than an ordinary juicer).

You might want to rethink that one. Even IF you were right about the x40 figure, you'd still be wrong here. Those with Robotic PS only get a x25 to their carry calculations, but they do far more damage than those with Juicer strength in hand to hand. And not just far, but vastly more at that. So no, in that light your interpretation is not a logical conclusion in the slightest because of that massive contradiction.

Me, in my mind I resolve this seemingly contradiction by making the distinctin in automotive terms. More specifically, the distinction between torque pounds and RPMs. An engine may have similar ratings in horse power, but sometimes that power is better put to slow and steady grunt power while in others it helps make the car go really, really fast. By compairison the Juicer's strength would be more akin to that of a big truck made to work in the super low gears, able to move things about, but not with the speed and fluidity of those with supernatural or robotic PS who can throw bullet-fast strikes, but lack the toruqe stregth of the Juicer to move things around.

Also there is another contradictory paradox in your reasoning: Dog Boys. All Dog Boys have the ability to lift. On pg. 146, RUE, it notes that "... the Dog Boy is twice that of the average human with it comes to ... lifting weight." (emphasis added). It then goes on to clairify that those with a PS of 16 or under get the x20 while those wiht a PS of 17+ get the x40.

So, if this is what they expressly meant with twice the strengh of a normal person, then how can you rationalize it to meaning the exact same thing for someone who has four times the strenth of a noral person?

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:there is no PS limitation on what makes for a "Normal Person" regardless of whether that person has a PS of 15, 30, or 45 for that matter. If you'd check out pg. 284 in RUE you'd even see that that those who possess a Physical Strength of 30 or more fall under the heading of "Ordinary Human Physical Strength", a term that is synominous with Normal Person.

Not in the contexts we're talking about.

Not in the context? Dude, that's a "by the book" categorical descriptive listing for all characters who do not posses robtic or supernatural PS. ALL! This speaks directly to the heart of the matter in that it addresses every character that doesn't fit in those other two strength listings as "Ordinary Humans". And ordinary human is a normal person and therefore people with any PS from 3 to 100 in fact fall under the heading of a "Normal Person". Just becaue it doesn't fall under your nerf-happy ideals doesn't make it false or incorrect. This is a definition directly out of the book I'm going by here, as opposed to your opinion, weighted though it may be.

The context that we're talking about are the specific strength categories for lifting and carrying. There are two types for most standard characters:
Normal and Strong.

My interpretation leads to the most logical conclusion, because it jibes with the damage output and the existence of Titan Juicers (who, under your interpretation, would be weaker than an ordinary juicer).

You might want to rethink that one. Even IF you were right about the x40 figure, you'd still be wrong here. Those with Robotic PS only get a x25 to their carry calculations, but they do far more damage than those with Juicer strength in hand to hand. And not just far, but vastly more at that. So no, in that light your interpretation is not a logical conclusion in the slightest because of that massive contradiction.

No matter how you slice it, the tables for robots and supernatural creatures inflicting mega-damage don't make any sense.

Me, in my mind I resolve this seemingly contradiction by making the distinctin in automotive terms. More specifically, the distinction between torque pounds and RPMs. An engine may have similar ratings in horse power, but sometimes that power is better put to slow and steady grunt power while in others it helps make the car go really, really fast. By compairison the Juicer's strength would be more akin to that of a big truck made to work in the super low gears, able to move things about, but not with the speed and fluidity of those with supernatural or robotic PS who can throw bullet-fast strikes, but lack the toruqe stregth of the Juicer to move things around.

Which would do absoultely nothing to explain why they could lift more than robots, which would be built more for torque than RPMs. Especially for non-combat robots.

Also there is another contradictory paradox in your reasoning: Dog Boys. All Dog Boys have the ability to lift. On pg. 146, RUE, it notes that "... the Dog Boy is twice that of the average human with it comes to ... lifting weight." (emphasis added).

The word you cut out is "enduance".
As in, "The physical endurance of the Dog Boys is twice that of the average human."
Not strength.

It then goes on to clairify that those with a PS of 16 or under get the x20 while those wiht a PS of 17+ get the x40.

So, if this is what they expressly meant with twice the strengh of a normal person, then how can you rationalize it to meaning the exact same thing for someone who has four times the strenth of a noral person?

THIS is actually the first piece of solid evidence you have brought into the argument!

Let's look at it.
First of all, RUE doesn't say that they can lift 2x that of a "Normal" character, it says "average". Not necessarily the same thing.
But the orignal Rifts book does say "Normal" humans.
I'm assuming that RUE is likely clarifying the same rule, not changing it, so this establishes that references to "Normal" characters apparently does NOT mean the same as it does in the weight/carry section. Which means that Juicer logically use the same terminology and intent as the Dog Boys, meaning that they can lift/carry 4x the amount of an unaugmented character with the same strength, whether the unaugmented human is Normal or Strong.

Which means that a normal Juicer with a PS of 22 (the minimum) can carry 1740 lbs, and can lift up to 3480 lbs.
Meanwhile, a robot with a PS of 22 can only carry 550 lbs, and can only lift 1100 lbs.
And a Titan Juicer with a PS of 30 can carry 1500 lbs and can lift 3000 lbs.

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you're right: The rules make no sense.

You know i would support "One Strength Class to Rule them All", like the way GURPS handles Strength. I would support it.

But it would require massive rewrites. A new Edition with actual rule changes to the system. This is something i believe Palladium needs to do for all their Core books actually.

Release a New True Megaversal rule book.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:It then goes on to clairify that those with a PS of 16 or under get the x20 while those wiht a PS of 17+ get the x40.

So, if this is what they expressly meant with twice the strengh of a normal person, then how can you rationalize it to meaning the exact same thing for someone who has four times the strenth of a noral person?

THIS is actually the first piece of solid evidence you have brought into the argument!

Actually it was all good evidience of varying degrees of solidity.

The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Personally I've been an advocate of your idea to make the Unified PS Theory, though we have different ideas of just how to develop it, (no surprise there). Even so, if done right and exhaustive enough in detail, it could change the face of the game via a Rifter article that included a comprehensive conversion and implementation plan.

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Yeah, but I was basing my argument on what would make the most sense and would still fit the text. So it's disappointing to find text that negates the option that makes the most sense.
Of course, it's not exactly the first time that this has happened.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Yeah, but I was basing my argument on what would make the most sense and would still fit the text. So it's disappointing to find text that negates the option that makes the most sense.
Of course, it's not exactly the first time that this has happened.

Rifts is full of things that don't make much sense but that doesn't mean thats not they way it is...

Thinyser wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Yeah, but I was basing my argument on what would make the most sense and would still fit the text. So it's disappointing to find text that negates the option that makes the most sense.
Of course, it's not exactly the first time that this has happened.

Rifts is full of things that don't make much sense but that doesn't mean thats not they way it is...

More often than not, it's the way to bet.
You can bet the other way, if you like... assume that any time there is a vague bit of text, that the interpretation that makes the least sense is the correct one.
Let me know how that works out for you.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Yeah, but I was basing my argument on what would make the most sense and would still fit the text. So it's disappointing to find text that negates the option that makes the most sense.
Of course, it's not exactly the first time that this has happened.

Rifts is full of things that don't make much sense but that doesn't mean thats not they way it is...

More often than not, it's the way to bet.
You can bet the other way, if you like... assume that any time there is a vague bit of text, that the interpretation that makes the least sense is the correct one.
Let me know how that works out for you.

Sadly in Rifts thats not so bad a bet

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:You can bet the other way, if you like... assume that any time there is a vague bit of text, that the interpretation that makes the least sense is the correct one.

But given that people interpret things in different ways and think things out in different ways, some ways make more sense to some people than they do to others. That's why discussions like this form.

If you can see any sense in normal Juicers being able to lift and carry more than Titan Juicers, let me know what it is.

This is spured from talking to one of online buddies at rpg.net....

As much as i like Palladium, i'd kill to see a GURPS:Rifts one shot book of just the mainbook. Just to see how Rifts would look in a better system of rules.

Custom PA = Mecha
Custom Vehicles = Vehicles
Robots/Cyborgs = Robots
Various Super-soldiers = Bio-Tech
D-bees & Monsters = ? Beastary or various books...
Mages & Magics = Magic & Magic Items books...
Superpowered people = Supers
Rifts Mega-technology = Ultra-Tech

Did i miss anything ???

TechnoGothic wrote:This is spured from talking to one of online buddies at rpg.net....

As much as i like Palladium, i'd kill to see a GURPS:Rifts one shot book of just the mainbook. Just to see how Rifts would look in a better system of rules.

Custom PA = Mecha
Custom Vehicles = Vehicles
Robots/Cyborgs = Robots
Various Super-soldiers = Bio-Tech
D-bees & Monsters = ? Beastary or various books...
Mages & Magics = Magic & Magic Items books...
Superpowered people = Supers
Rifts Mega-technology = Ultra-Tech

Did i miss anything ???

Ah... why did you drop this in here?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The rules make no sense.

I never said that they did! Just that that's the way it plays by the book.

Yeah, but I was basing my argument on what would make the most sense and would still fit the text. So it's disappointing to find text that negates the option that makes the most sense.
Of course, it's not exactly the first time that this has happened.

I felt the exact same way when you dropped that bomb on me in that debate about whether MD weapon damage stacks with that from Supernatural PS. But ya know what? This too has the same fix: House Rules! Where would we be without them?

Shadow_otm wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The maximum PS score for a normal human is 50, so that's not an issue.

Really? That stated in a Rifts book somewhere? Page number?

I don't remember where this can be found, but I *do* remember reading it before.

/Sub