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To quote the RUE pg. 54 [edited for content]:

"The rods protruding from the skull are absolutely unnesessary. Why have them? Without them there's nothing obvious or special about the Crazies, and Crazies (they are crazy, remember) don't like that!"

Seems your player is trying to play a decent, civilized, "sane" and "in control" Crazy. Kinda like playing a Juicer who isn't vibrating constantly. Yes, it's canon, but it's also canon that they LOVE being recognized as Crazies, regardless. Read the little dialouge further validating this social trait on the same page (too much to quote).

Still, it's your game and the GM is law and all that. Just point it out.

My 2 creds

Migamus wrote:The player doesn't want to be labeled a Crazy every time he goes somewhere new. He wants to be more stealthy and not invoke everyone else's paranoia about dealing with an enhanced human in their town.

He insists that the knobs on his head are purely cosmetic and that the nanotechnology in his brain doesn't require this dated fashion statement. He has some canon to back his claim.

As a GM, I keep pointing out that it must be more than just cosmetic if Crazies world wide have the knobs, from NGR to Japan.

What do you think?

Before RUE, there was no in-game rule about the knobs. Heck, there wasn't any mention of them at all in the OCC description, or any indication that the knobs would be there. The only reason why people think that there should be knobs is because of the artwork.
Personally, I think that the knobs are stupid. There's no reason why they would be there, and they would require Crazies to run around without helmets, or to pay for custom helmets that fit around the knobs.
Neither option makes much sense to me. They're Crazy, not stupid.

As of RUE, it's official that the knobs are just cosmetic. Crazies look at them as a mark of their status.

The long and short of it is that it is up to the two of you.

Really, if someone wanted to do the M.O.M. conversion for revenge purposes (maybe because they couldn't afford to be a Juicer or whatever) it would make sense that they would be a little less identifiable.

But maybe the guy doing the conversion puts them in anyway.

In any event, they aren't REQUIRED for the Crazy to be a, well, Crazy - but the final choice rests with the two of you.

argos wrote:no crazy is touchin my knobs. . . .

On topic, just because the crazy has the knobs doesnt mean he needs a special helmet. Some show the knobs as relativly small and all he would need is a slightly larger helmet.

Stick some tuna cans on your head, then put on a motorcycle helmet or paintball helmet. Let me know how comfy it is.

For some crazies, the knobs may be more than just cosmetic actually. They are crazy, and who knows what the effects would be should they lose the knobs. None should actually take place, but what does it do to their psyche; do they doubt themselves (hey, i dont have those knobs so i musnt be a crazy).. It could be losing them could cause them to lose thier powers in some cases, like the power association. True it would just be in their heads, but thats the essence of the char.

THAT is a cool idea. Not for every Crazy, but for some of them I could definitely see a Power of Association fetish for the knobs.

personally, i always figured the knobs were medical channels.

large holes have to be opened in the skull to implant the chips. to close them up, metal plates would have to be used. since the chips would need adjusting after implantation, the 'plates' have 'caps' in them that can be removed to give the surgeons direct access to the implants. the caps protude out of the skin, giving that 'knob head' look.

a crazy could have the knobs removed, but that would not allow them to have their implants fixed/corrected if they break/fail.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Migamus wrote:The player doesn't want to be labeled a Crazy every time he goes somewhere new. He wants to be more stealthy and not invoke everyone else's paranoia about dealing with an enhanced human in their town.

He insists that the knobs on his head are purely cosmetic and that the nanotechnology in his brain doesn't require this dated fashion statement. He has some canon to back his claim.

As a GM, I keep pointing out that it must be more than just cosmetic if Crazies world wide have the knobs, from NGR to Japan.

What do you think?

Before RUE, there was no in-game rule about the knobs. Heck, there wasn't any mention of them at all in the OCC description, or any indication that the knobs would be there. The only reason why people think that there should be knobs is because of the artwork.
Personally, I think that the knobs are stupid. There's no reason why they would be there, and they would require Crazies to run around without helmets, or to pay for custom helmets that fit around the knobs.
Neither option makes much sense to me. They're Crazy, not stupid.

As of RUE, it's official that the knobs are just cosmetic. Crazies look at them as a mark of their status.

KC is correct yet again.

If I recall, in RUE the knobs are described as a cosmetic hold over from the early days of the technology

While I generally agree with that I also pay attention to their having been a massive apocalyptic event since the technology reached that state. I think a lot of cyber-docs and body-chop shops that do the MOM conversions rely on older style, easier to build and maintain, "can" implants.

Now more advanced, professional groups (ie the ones who make Crazy Assassains for the Black Market and the Japanese Ninja Clans) tend to avoid putting the "cans" on so as to preserve some of the anonymity of their operatives - at least until their behavoirs reach that uncontrolled state that gives them away automatically.

Incidently, a "Crazy" starts out as a (relatively) sane, well adjusted individual. It is only as the cumulative effects of the brain rewiring build up (ie they gain experience) that their psyche begins to break down. So other than making the choice to get their brain rewired (similar motivations and questions of insanity to getting your body replaced with bionics or hyper accelerating your body chemistry) they are normal people and should be played as such at the start.

Strange as this may seem, I think the Crazy is one of only a handful of RPG character classes that gets less powerful as they go up in levels.

I voted yes, but to remove the knobs would make the crazy no longer a crazy (bye bye bonuses).

Also if the Crazy did the procedure himself (Might be crazy enough to do it!) I think that would be self lobotomization(sp?), so roll a 1d4 to see what the PC's new IQ is.

I personally like the knobs, but don't feel that a player needs them to be a crazy. partial armor would allow one to run around without a helmet (although a killer facemask would rock). I would do stuff like customized headwear that either covers the "knobs", or allows them to poke through (targets, but difficult to hit in the heat of battle). Or some type of grill type of headcovering (really stylized).

My brother hates the knobs, but at the same time I don't think it would be that hard to spot a crazy. The early (low level) crazies would just appear to be hyper, over anxious, or wet behind the ears (not realizing the "horrors of war") punks that just want to jump in waist deep in the battle. Later on in their "Crazy career", they would be the ones with that spaced out or cold-steel gaze. They really wouldn't "fit in" in larger social gatherings, and would probably have some odd behaviors (twitching, talking to ones self, etc).

I don't like that whole "wacky daffy duck" crazy, I like the idea of a deeply disturbed and mentally unstable (scary to be around when you're not in battle) Crazy. The ones that always look like they're trying to see the individual molecules that make up whatever they're staring at (for long stretches of time, unless someone gets their attention).

D3m1G0D wrote:

jedi078 wrote:I voted yes, but to remove the knobs would make the crazy no longer a crazy (bye bye bonuses).

Also if the Crazy did the procedure himself (Might be crazy enough to do it!) I think that would be self lobotomization(sp?), so roll a 1d4 to see what the PC's new IQ is.

Well said.

These implant are supposed to be controlling the brain in a way to make the body react better. If you take away the implant what is controlling the brain to make it more efficient?

except they arn't what's doing it. they're just there.

the Chinese Crazies have but a single knob in the forehead and a faceless face plate...

D3m1G0D wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

D3m1G0D wrote:These implant are supposed to be controlling the brain in a way to make the body react better. If you take away the implant what is controlling the brain to make it more efficient?

except they arn't what's doing it. they're just there.

Few facts first.
1.) I don't own RUE

I consider the entire implant the part that control the brain along with the part that protrudes from the head. I know there is no mention of them from the books, but in every book which has M.O.M. tech it has a picture detailing the "knobs." This is in every picture of a crazy that I have seen. It is their signature much like a Juicers drug harness.

2.) I try to use logic Makes Rifts very difficult

I'm not willing to agree that if you chop the implant in half it will still work.

Logic usually works just fine with Rifts.

Rifts, p. 56
"Again, nano-technology made it possibe to implant tiny devices directly into the brain to control its electrical impulses."

Logically, Nanotechnology + "tiny devices" + Inside the brain = tiny nanotech devices inside the brain.
Not "huge frickin' knobs sticking out of the skull".

The reason why the artists decided to draw the large knobs is because they like the subjects of their art to be easily identifiable. They draw knobs sticking out of a Crazy's skull, they put Line Walkers in the standard "beer hat and 'lobotomize me' belt" outfit, they make psi-stalkers bald, etc. etc. etc.
But none of that was originally reflected (or even mentioned) in the actual rules of the game, and it has no real reason for being there.

If you want to take the artwork as canon for how the classes are supposed to be....
-Juicers often run around with out helmets, or without helmets that protect the face (Rifts, p. 68 )
-Cyberknights all wear really dorky looking armor and have freaky looking eyes (p. 62)
-Headhunters only wear an unknown type of body armor, and it doesn't protect the face (p. 67)
-City rats never wear armor at all, preferring leather jackets, thigh-high boots, and sunglasses. (p. 73)
-Wilderness Scouts don't wear armor either. Just wilderness clothes and a big cape (p. 80)
-Vagabonds also wear capes (p. 82)
-Line Walkers all wear the same funky outfit, and they all have some sort of high-tech electronic gadget on their wrist. Is that gadget the source of their powers!? Must be, since somebody drew a picture of it, even though the rules never mention what that thing is.... (p. 84)
-Mystics once again prefer capes to armor (p. 86)
-Dragons all wear high-tech eye-patches (p. 99)
-Bursters never wear armor, or even shirts (p. 104)
- Psi-stalkers like flaming swords and lots of eye shadow. They do wear armor, but never helmets or boots. Also, they almost never trim their toenails (p. 106)
-Mind Melters wear no helmets (probably due to their freakishly large skulls), and they have to grab their forehead with both hands in order to use their powers. (p. 112)
- Mystic Druids from England are all hotties, with pet tigers, badgers, and lemurs. Instead of wearing armor, they prefer show off their legs and their cleavage. (p. 155)
-Operators all wear rags on their heads, have long hair, and don't shave regularly. their preferred weapon is a length of pipe (p. 160)
-In addition to being bald, psi-stalkers like to use a weird spiky melee weapon, and wear large medallions (p. 160)

KC, that had me rolling!

~ Josh

D3m1G0D wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

D3m1G0D wrote:These implant are supposed to be controlling the brain in a way to make the body react better. If you take away the implant what is controlling the brain to make it more efficient?

except they arn't what's doing it. they're just there.

Few facts first.
1.) I don't own RUE

I consider the entire implant the part that control the brain along with the part that protrudes from the head. I know there is no mention of them from the books, but in every book which has M.O.M. tech it has a picture detailing the "knobs." This is in every picture of a crazy that I have seen. It is their signature much like a Juicers drug harness.

2.) I try to use logic Makes Rifts very difficult

I'm not willing to agree that if you chop the implant in half it will still work.

it says in RUE specifically that the MOM implant is 100% under the skull. the knobs are irrelevant to the implant.

Sir Ysbadden wrote:... and to use old art to back up the idea that all crazies have these cans is just looking backwards.

Furthermore, who's to say that all the crazies ever drawn DO have the cans?
There could be plenty of them in the artwork without the cans, and we'd never know.

D3m1G0D wrote:
Show/quote a picture where a Crazy is illustrated in ANY rifts book without the Knobs.

Rifts RPG Page 192?

Seriously though, anyone you see in the books could be a crazy because the KNOBS ARE UNNECCESSARY.

Personally I figured they weren't knobs, but vents since the crazy's brain is overheating. One of my crazies had to get more as he leveled to balance the heat.

D3m1G0D wrote:8)

Killer Cyborg wrote:Logic usually works just fine with Rifts.

Rifts, p. 56
"Again, nano-technology made it possibe to implant tiny devices directly into the brain to control its electrical impulses."

Logically, Nanotechnology + "tiny devices" + Inside the brain = tiny nanotech devices inside the brain.
Not "huge frickin' knobs sticking out of the skull".

If this were true then the juicer harasses is not needed. Yes I will admit that the mircro tech does exist but there is is the limited lifespan of the marco bots. I'd say we go to the foremost on this Rifts Japan. AT-ADD Dissolvent (pg 120) is the best rifts has to offer, yet it doesn't continue for 20 years. I'm willing to say that the micro bots burn up power to fast and go dead.

House rule whatever you like.
The official rules are that MOM technology uses nanotech inside the brain, not big cans sticking out of the skull.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The reason why the artists decided to draw the large knobs is because they like the subjects of their art to be easily identifiable. They draw knobs sticking out of a Crazy's skull, they put Line Walkers in the standard "beer hat and 'lobotomize me' belt" outfit, they make psi-stalkers bald, etc. etc. etc.
But none of that was originally reflected (or even mentioned) in the actual rules of the game, and it has no real reason for being there.

Your right. In every picture of a crazy it is shown with the "knobs."

Very few people can walk around RIFTS with no armor. The Ley Line Walker is an exceptinon to this rule. [/quote]

Not really. Which is why they start with armor.

Hairless Psi-Stalkers...Group in Canada "Pony Tail Tribe" stitch hair to their scalp.

In the main book, there is nothing saying that psi-stalkers are hairless. The later books endorse an artistic decision to have it that way, but when those first pictures of Psi-Stalkers were drawn they just a simple artistic decision that had nothing to do with the actual game rules or the nature of psi-stalkers.

Yes I realize the point. Nothing has been so well illistarted in all the books that illistrates them as the Crazys with the "knobs" in their heads. These "knobs" are an implant.

Those sentences don't make any discernable sense.

A picture is worth a thousand words. I can look at those pictures and can see something totally different in every case. This would get us nowhere and renders a moot point in the end.

???
You can look at a picture of a Psi-stalker with a spiked weapon and see something different?
Like what?
Do you see a shirt on that burster?

This isn't a rorschach test. The pictures show things.
It's just that what the pictures show is NOT necessarily canon for everybody in that class.

Show/quote a picture where a Crazy is illustrated in ANY rifts book without the Knobs.

How would you know one if you saw one?

Quoted from RUE, page 54, Column 1 para 3 (This IS Canon...this is the rule...any other rule is a house rule and not official):

"It may come as a surprise, but most M.O.M implants are tiny, about the size of a pea [1cm] to the head of a pin [less than 1mm]. The famous metal rods...are totally unnecessary...so why have them? For style, panache, and character."

It's pretty clear...unless you want him to have rods...he doesn't have to have them.

PS-

Killer Cyborg...you crack me up!!!

argos wrote: I wouldnt allow it unless the char ad a good back story behind it, and just saying, "oh i wanna be a crazy but not stand out" isnt sufficient. You become a crazy to stand out. You want to have that edge. But nonetheless, I could see myself allowing it.

No, you become a Crazy because you want to be superhuman. Some people may do it for the glitz and glamour of the slowly growing insanity involved, but many people do it out of desperation.
Their village needs a champion.
Their family needs cash.
Or some other sort of crisis.
Trying to assume that every Crazy fits the same mold just doesn't make sense. They're not all going to want to stand out. Paranoids, for example, tend not to like that sort of thing.
The only ones who would really want the knobs are the ones who are nuts to begin with.
Granted, this might well be a sizable portion of the Crazy population, but if it's the majority it shouldn't be by much.

argos wrote:I'd continue but i cant see with this motorcycle helmet on and these tuna cans are givin me a headache (that was for you KC )

Absolutely... door, bed, you

D3m1G0D wrote:That is why I like crazys to have knobs sticking out of their heads. It is a defining trait of a crazy. A crazy as an NPC, your players know what they are talking to/dealing with. A player as a crazy is treated/looked at differently than a vagabon without having to prove him/herself.

I prefer things the other way.
Why should anybody get to automatically know what anybody else is?
Better be nice to that vagabond; he might really be a Crazy.
But don't trust him too much; he might be a Crazy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

D3m1G0D wrote:That is why I like crazys to have knobs sticking out of their heads. It is a defining trait of a crazy. A crazy as an NPC, your players know what they are talking to/dealing with. A player as a crazy is treated/looked at differently than a vagabon without having to prove him/herself.

I prefer things the other way.
Why should anybody get to automatically know what anybody else is?
Better be nice to that vagabond; he might really be a Crazy.
But don't trust him too much; he might be a Crazy.

People'd be a LOT nicer to bartenders, wouldn't they?

GM: The bartender giggles with delight and fast as lightning pulls out a gun and shoots you in the face. mutters under his breath about bonuses due to him being a Crazy
Player: The BARTENDER was a Crazy?!
GM: Yup.
Player: Why in the WORLD would a crazy become a freaking BARTENDER?!
GM: Uhh...he's crazy?

I like the idea.

/Sub

Sir Ysbadden wrote:I would like to clarify my statements a little.

If a player is creating a character there is no reason that he should be forced to have the beer cans unless he wants to have them.

If a player has an established character that has had the beer cans since his conception then if he wanted to get rid of the cans he would have to endure the lengthly medical procedure to get them switched out for the newer smaller nano-tech implants. The shock to his mind when having the implants replaced could conceivably cause the character to have his insanities change possibly gaining new one's or additional one's or even possibly result in death or coma!

The "cans" aren't part of the implants though, they are simply marker studs, they could concievably be altered without screwing up the implants.

~ Josh

Sir Ysbadden wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

Sir Ysbadden wrote:I would like to clarify my statements a little.

If a player is creating a character there is no reason that he should be forced to have the beer cans unless he wants to have them.

If a player has an established character that has had the beer cans since his conception then if he wanted to get rid of the cans he would have to endure the lengthly medical procedure to get them switched out for the newer smaller nano-tech implants. The shock to his mind when having the implants replaced could conceivably cause the character to have his insanities change possibly gaining new one's or additional one's or even possibly result in death or coma!

The "cans" aren't part of the implants though, they are simply marker studs, they could conceivably be altered without screwing up the implants.

~ Josh

Under the new rules the cans are not nececary however they were part of the implant in previous editions of the game

No, they weren't.
They were never once mentioned until RUE.
The only text describing MOM implants describes them as being tiny, nanotech devices inside the brain.

Firstly, there is no overarching objective reality to this question, the GM can call it either way. There is no 'truth' to this. This is no matter what the RUE says. It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins. So ironically enough, quotes from RUE are not persuasive. The GM should call the issue based on what's the most fun for the players and GM involved, not what the rulebook says. Fun's the goal. There are no awards given for running your game "closest to what the book says". Sometimes following the book is what's most fun... sometimes... doing otherwise is the right plan.

The knobs on the head, however, do seem to be kind of the Crazy 'signature', they look cool, and are big fun (which is probably why Kevin Long originally drew them that way). A player who doesn't want the knobs seems to want to be a 'stealth crazy', and given the decidedly non-stealth nature of the Crazy disability, the player doesn't seem to want to 100% role-play these guys. This is up to them, but seems less fun. Again, it depends on the Player and GM. If they enjoy that, then they should go for it.

It seems much more fun to make the Knobs part of The Crazy mystique, and when The Crazy wants to try to conceal his nature, let him wear a hat or a wig (Pondering what kind of 'Hat or wig... there's some enjoyment in that!) That should work for as long as it needs to until people notice that the guy in the fez washes his hands 50 times in one day and becomes violent if anyone tries to tell him to stop whistling all the time.

Yes, but if the GM is asking, the GM hasn't made up his mind...so, if you are GMing and want knobs, that's fine. But if you are asking, then I am going to tell you what the rules say.

Now, my point in all of this is....what do you get out of forcing the character to have knobs? He wants to play a crazy w/o knobs, and a crazy is by no means a munch character (its one of the weakest characters available when you consider they are almost completely insane at higher levels). He doesn't like the look, and the book doesn't sy that it is necessary, so why not let him have what he wants? It's not going to hurt anything.

DamonS wrote:It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins.

We're not playing a game here; we're discussing what the actual rules are.
In which case, the rules win over opinion every single time.

But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

Killer Cyborg wrote:But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

Because the guy is CRAZY, so he LIKES having fruit trees growing out of his head!

Korentin_Black wrote:Bear in mind that as of Rifts : Japan the Knobs were an integral part of the MOM process... or we can safely assume from the descriptive text that the Ninjas wouldn't be fitted with them.

Quote where the book talks about the knobs.

Korentin_Black wrote:Bear in mind that as of Rifts : Japan the Knobs were an integral part of the MOM process... or we can safely assume from the descriptive text that the Ninjas wouldn't be fitted with them.

Not that I even like the idea of the Ninja Crazy... I mean come on - what... Crazy decided to recruit mental aberrants for stealthy corporate espionage work? ^_^

Umm...they're not crazy when they're on a mission. Only afterward.

There are two pics I'm remembering of Crazies in Japan, and both of them have comparatively tiny studs.

That said; again - we're talking artists conceptions and not rules.

/Sub

argos wrote:ok, not to throw more fuel on this fire but this topic has spurred this question in my mind. If artist renderings are later incorpoated in words into rules, what is to say artist renderings dont have official rule merit. After all, they are in the books and nothing contradicts artist renderings for the most part. We have seen two clear cases (with psi stalkers and crazies) where artist drawings have become rules. When in doubt, isnt art evidence of an answer?

No.

If there is no textual basis for finding an answer to a question, the GM must determine his own answer. He may choose to allow art to influence the creation of such an answer and may choose the degree to which it influences the answer.

Korentin_Black wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Korentin_Black wrote:Bear in mind that as of Rifts : Japan the Knobs were an integral part of the MOM process... or we can safely assume from the descriptive text that the Ninjas wouldn't be fitted with them.

Quote where the book talks about the knobs.

p87, second full paragraph, 'Long term undercover and infiltration jobs are impossible, both because of the easily visible M.O.M. implants and...'

God, but I HATE that book.

Exactly the same place it was the last time we had this argu... discussion... Does it make sense? - well, up to a point. Japan has the premier human Bionics & PA technology on the planet, they obviously just didn't follow Crazy augmentation with quite the same enthusiasm.

Now we have two possibilities here - either the implants are purely cosmetic, in which case the ninjas wouldn't put them in and there would only be one reason for not doing long-term infiltration (the other is their inherent instability), or they're an integral part of the older Crazy process. As of R:UE we found out that more modern versions of the technology, whilst unpopular in the market are available and do not require the knobs.

The most likely REAL answer is still this:
The artists took liberty with the class concept, making obvious features so that they could be easily identified in the artwork, even though such features are not part of the class. Authors eventually took the artwork as a canon reflection of the actual appearance of the class, and screwed things up by including a bad choice on the part of the artist as actual canon.

But IN-GAME, yes. I've pretty much always gone by the house rule (now canon) that the knobs are only necessary with older MOM technology. It's the only way to reconcile the different views.
(Although in my games, most crazies who can afford it go for the internal versions, without the unnecessary knobs)

let him have a cyber-doc alter them but not remove them

I think that the argument "Crazies are crazy, they like having the knobs" is silly. They weren't crazy when they got the MOM implants, so why did they choose the visible ones, then? Some might do it for intimidation value, but I don't think that all, or even enough to make the concealed variety economically unfeasible, would do so.

The real limiter, IMO, would be technology. I think the knobbed version is easier to make and install, ergo it is cheaper and more common. "I can buy the really snazzy MOM implants, or I can buy the normal MOM implants and a gun." That's a much more plausible argument.

argos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

argos wrote:ok, not to throw more fuel on this fire but this topic has spurred this question in my mind. If artist renderings are later incorpoated in words into rules, what is to say artist renderings dont have official rule merit. After all, they are in the books and nothing contradicts artist renderings for the most part. We have seen two clear cases (with psi stalkers and crazies) where artist drawings have become rules. When in doubt, isnt art evidence of an answer?

No.

Why not?

why should it be?

If I take a picture of a U.S. Army soldier wearing Dragonskin armor, 3-days beard and no ACU blouse, does that mean that this is an Army uniform? No, just that this is what that soldier is wearing at the time I took the picture.

The art looks good. There are crazies with knobs. This does not mean all crazies must have knobs.

socom242 wrote:To quote the RUE pg. 54 [edited for content]:

"The rods protruding from the skull are absolutely unnesessary. Why have them? Without them there's nothing obvious or special about the Crazies, and Crazies (they are crazy, remember) don't like that!"

Seems your player is trying to play a decent, civilized, "sane" and "in control" Crazy. Kinda like playing a Juicer who isn't vibrating constantly. Yes, it's canon, but it's also canon that they LOVE being recognized as Crazies, regardless. Read the little dialouge further validating this social trait on the same page (too much to quote).

Still, it's your game and the GM is law and all that. Just point it out.

My 2 creds

I'll change the wording of a certain sentence for my personal comfort, and I am a GM... It's yours and the player's game, so figure out a compromise.
I personally have an ultra-crazy in my game who has no knobs. I let the player decide how the character looks or whatever.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DamonS wrote:It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins.

We're not playing a game here; we're discussing what the actual rules are.
In which case, the rules win over opinion every single time.

But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

We're discussing what should be done in the game. And in the game, the GM makes the call regarding all rules. So the crux of this, or any rules debate is "On what basis should the GM make the call?"

And the answer is, the GM should make the call in whatever way is most fun for the people involved... pure and simple.

If anyone can think of a situation where the GM should sacrifice enjoyment for any other purpose, I'd like to hear it. The closest I can think of is rankling the party a little bit now for a big fun playoff later, but that is still in the name of fun (I can see the GM enforcing a 'visible knobs' rule for that purpose here. It may rankle a party member a little now, but will give a fun adventure hook later on which will more than compensate for the minor rankling). This does depend on the people in your party, the circumstances, etc, all things the GM should consider.

So a back and forth on "It says on page ...." or "If you look at all the art and...." is a loss of focus. Instead, a more constructive focus is "which is more fun, visible implants? Or invisible implants?". There is that going in this thread (the 'can't remove them but can customize them idea is totally fun), but to those who want some sort of 'objective reality' upon which to make the decision....

forget reality, this is an RPG, do it all in the name of good fun!

DamonS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DamonS wrote:It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins.

We're not playing a game here; we're discussing what the actual rules are.
In which case, the rules win over opinion every single time.

But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

We're discussing what should be done in the game. And in the game, the GM makes the call regarding all rules. So the crux of this, or any rules debate is "On what basis should the GM make the call?"

And the answer is, the GM should make the call in whatever way is most fun for the people involved... pure and simple.

If anyone can think of a situation where the GM should sacrifice enjoyment for any other purpose, I'd like to hear it. The closest I can think of is rankling the party a little bit now for a big fun playoff later, but that is still in the name of fun (I can see the GM enforcing a 'visible knobs' rule for that purpose here. It may rankle a party member a little now, but will give a fun adventure hook later on which will more than compensate for the minor rankling). This does depend on the people in your party, the circumstances, etc, all things the GM should consider.

So a back and forth on "It says on page ...." or "If you look at all the art and...." is a loss of focus. Instead, a more constructive focus is "which is more fun, visible implants? Or invisible implants?". There is that going in this thread (the 'can't remove them but can customize them idea is totally fun), but to those who want some sort of 'objective reality' upon which to make the decision....

forget reality, this is an RPG, do it all in the name of good fun!

A long post, but essentially says nothing. Everyone knows that the GM should make whatever choice is the most fun.

the actual debate is in deciding what's most fun.

if we just all went "yea...do whatever you want, its your game" we really wouldn't have any discussions here, would we?

Sir Ysbadden wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DamonS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DamonS wrote:It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins.

We're not playing a game here; we're discussing what the actual rules are.
In which case, the rules win over opinion every single time.

But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

We're discussing what should be done in the game. And in the game, the GM makes the call regarding all rules. So the crux of this, or any rules debate is "On what basis should the GM make the call?"

And the answer is, the GM should make the call in whatever way is most fun for the people involved... pure and simple.

If anyone can think of a situation where the GM should sacrifice enjoyment for any other purpose, I'd like to hear it. The closest I can think of is rankling the party a little bit now for a big fun playoff later, but that is still in the name of fun (I can see the GM enforcing a 'visible knobs' rule for that purpose here. It may rankle a party member a little now, but will give a fun adventure hook later on which will more than compensate for the minor rankling). This does depend on the people in your party, the circumstances, etc, all things the GM should consider.

So a back and forth on "It says on page ...." or "If you look at all the art and...." is a loss of focus. Instead, a more constructive focus is "which is more fun, visible implants? Or invisible implants?". There is that going in this thread (the 'can't remove them but can customize them idea is totally fun), but to those who want some sort of 'objective reality' upon which to make the decision....

forget reality, this is an RPG, do it all in the name of good fun!

A long post, but essentially says nothing. Everyone knows that the GM should make whatever choice is the most fun.

the actual debate is in deciding what's most fun.

if we just all went "yea...do whatever you want, its your game" we really wouldn't have any discussions here, would we?

I think what he is trying to say is that the rules have been made quite clear on this subject some people it seem's do not want to acknowledge them because the art does not always fit the rules. As such since nothing new is being brought up as a cannon rule it becomes the responsibility of the GM and player to decide on a compromise between them.

So in other words, he was saying "Your beating a dead horse. Stop it"

to which I say "I'm having fun doing it, so "

Look, art is art, and it can be interpreted differently by each viewer (as can writtin', but not to such a great degree).


If you wanna base things off of art, that is fine. But my question is...does the Naruni corportation produce weapons that look like the guns in South America, or do they look like the guns in Phase World? Does a SAMAS power armor look like the artistic depiction in CWC, or does it look like the fat a$$ power armor flying across the plains in the main book?

DamonS wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

DamonS wrote:It's the GM's game. #1 rule in gaming, if the GM says one thing, but The book says another.... GM wins.

We're not playing a game here; we're discussing what the actual rules are.
In which case, the rules win over opinion every single time.

But yeah, IF the guy who started the thread wants to, he can have the Crazy forced to keep unnecessary coke-cans in his skull.
Or, for that matter, he could decide that MOM implants actually look like fruit trees growing out of the person's head.
But why bother making a house rule that makes no sense and contributes nothing useful to the game or the characters?

We're discussing what should be done in the game. And in the game, the GM makes the call regarding all rules. So the crux of this, or any rules debate is "On what basis should the GM make the call?"

And the answer is, the GM should make the call in whatever way is most fun for the people involved... pure and simple.

Which is a fairly useless answer, because it nets out as saying, "I dunno. Do whatever you want to do...[/i].

Regardless of what choices the GM makes, his job is to know the rules.
Once you know the rules, then you can bend them. Or even break them.

If anyone can think of a situation where the GM should sacrifice enjoyment for any other purpose, I'd like to hear it.

That can fill a thread in of itself.
I'll start one.

forget reality, this is an RPG, do it all in the name of good fun!

No.

argos wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

argos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

argos wrote:ok, not to throw more fuel on this fire but this topic has spurred this question in my mind. If artist renderings are later incorpoated in words into rules, what is to say artist renderings dont have official rule merit. After all, they are in the books and nothing contradicts artist renderings for the most part. We have seen two clear cases (with psi stalkers and crazies) where artist drawings have become rules. When in doubt, isnt art evidence of an answer?

No.

Why not?

why should it be?

well there is one rationale in bold. My point is this, if there is no connclusive evidence one way or the other, why cant art be evidence of what the rule should be. Im not saying conclusivity, and where there is writing that directly contradicts art renderings, writing takes precedent, but to say that art has no probative value I think is unjustified. What I am asking is, what justification does anyone have to say art has no probative value.

Go back and reread the list of art examples I gave earlier.
The artwork only randomly and sporadically reflects the actual rules of the game.

Tell you right now, that is not true...

It would be true if I said "this picture is a representation of reality", but that is not the case with art (where it is with written word).

Yes, a legal contract or law can be interpretted in many ways, where as a photograph cannot. However, a painting or any peice of art can be interpreted in far more many ways than a legal contract or a law.

argos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Go back and reread the list of art examples I gave earlier.
The artwork only randomly and sporadically reflects the actual rules of the game.

I read them, and you make some funny points, but the fact remains that psi stalkers dont have body hair officially. In that instance, art became canon fact.

It became canon after the fact.
The rules can sometimes decide (stupidly or not) to imitate art.
The art can sometimes imitate the rules.
But there isn't much connection between the two.
Much of the artwork shows stuff that clearly does not work within the rules, and vice versa.

To say there is no probabtive value in art is erroneous in my view. That is what I am getting from your pov.

You are right that this is my point of view.
You are wrong to think that there is anything substantiating about the artwork. It's a seperate entity from the rules, and usually does not reflect them accurately.

argos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Go back and reread the list of art examples I gave earlier.
The artwork only randomly and sporadically reflects the actual rules of the game.

I read them, and you make some funny points, but the fact remains that psi stalkers dont have body hair officially. In that instance, art became canon fact. To say there is no probabtive value in art is erroneous in my view. That is what I am getting from your pov.

And language,especially written language, is as open to interpretation as art if not more so, just go talk to any lawyer.

Actually, there's other art that shows a Psi-Stalker WITH hair. The guy in Reid's Rangers has hair. It was later explained as being implants, but that's kinda...odd...to me.

/Sub

argos wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

argos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Go back and reread the list of art examples I gave earlier.
The artwork only randomly and sporadically reflects the actual rules of the game.

I read them, and you make some funny points, but the fact remains that psi stalkers dont have body hair officially. In that instance, art became canon fact. To say there is no probabtive value in art is erroneous in my view. That is what I am getting from your pov.

And language,especially written language, is as open to interpretation as art if not more so, just go talk to any lawyer.

Actually, there's other art that shows a Psi-Stalker WITH hair. The guy in Reid's Rangers has hair. It was later explained as being implants, but that's kinda...odd...to me.

/Sub

where is that?

I'll have to let you know the page number when I get home, but he's in the Vampire Kingdoms. IIRC, he's got fangs and hair hanging down.

D3m1G0D wrote:That is why I like crazys to have knobs sticking out of their heads. It is a defining trait of a crazy. A crazy as an NPC, your players know what they are talking to/dealing with. A player as a crazy is treated/looked at differently than a vagabon without having to prove him/herself.

I'd just like to point out, that the defining trait of a crazy is his insanity. In fact it's so much so that they are called "crazies" not "knobbies" or "cannies"...but crazies.

Personally, I would allow (and do) if they wish not to have the cans. I think the art is there to help "differenciate" between characters, not to reflect the "reality" of rifts. It's there to bring the picture to "life". If you had a picture of a bunch of guys jumping it could be many things, but adding the knobs you get a much different image, THESE are crazies. In play and in game, you many times DON'T want that.

In most pictures with Cyber-knights, you see them using their psi-sword, but in play I don't think many use it. It's nice, but a vibro-sword is probably just as strong, and there's a good chance he can use rifles, which are more viable in combat.