New Gm to BTS, 2 questions

[Richter]

So I have 2 issues with the BTS setting i'm hoping I can get some assistance on.

I'm a new Gm to BTS as a setting, and everyone in this game is new to the setting as well. I also havent played in a fully fledged BTS game before. With that knowledge out of the way, here are my 2 concerns I'd appreciate any input on.

First thing I'm having an issue with is working on the investigation portion of the game. This seems to be a very large (and fun) portion of the game. from all the games people have told stories of here from conventions etc, thats made up alot of the fun. So my issue is, how in depth do you writers get with this? I've never really had to write alot of details regarding investigations in other games but i've never had PC's with access to these kind of powers. I don't want the game to be durr simple for them, but I also don't feel like writing a script for an episode of CSI meets X-files every mission. I'm curious how some of you handle this, or if you have any nice short cuts that are evading me.

My other issue is combat. Nothing to do with mechanics etc, mainly the danger of the supernatural baddies vs the PC's.
Alot of even the "low level" creatures, have quite an insane level of SDC and HP. Most of the PC's are using very low damage weapons, and I seriously doubt a hunting rifle is spose to deal 7D6 (wth?) so I'm wondering how you GM's handle combat. Am I overreacting to the numbers presented? I know this isnt a combat centric (usually) game setting, and I agree supernatural baddies should be pretty beefy, but I don't see how a 1st lvl party, particularly w/o a major heavy hitter (Physical, Firewalker, Ghost hunter, Natural) can handle a boogeyman, some hell hounds, or god forbid a Succubus (assuming they get into a fight with one). Pipes donig 2D6 and Pistols doing 3D6 or 4D6 don't seem like nearly enough. I'm using the Big Gun Compendium for gear, not the 1st Ed book (I noticed some differences between the 2)


Thanks in advance for any help, suggestions, or tips.

[Sir Neil]

I don't see how a 1st lvl party, particularly w/o a major heavy hitter (Physical, Firewalker, Ghost hunter, Natural) can handle a boogeyman, some hell hounds, or god forbid a Succubus (assuming they get into a fight with one).

Regardless of the system, a party should always include a major heavy hitter for just such occassions.

In BTS2, a bounty hunter/Natural really can solo almost anything corporeal, and a SWAT or assassin/ghost hunter can zap the rest. Bounty hunters can take almost as many physical skills as the fighting athlete, plus they get modern weapons and investigative skills. SWAT gets a big initial firearms bonus and new skills while they level. Assassins get a (somewhat smaller) bonus to any WP, and the best HTH style in the book. I think ghost hunters work better with the shooty professions than with the bounty hunter, because their powers are independant of their stats. YMMV.

Firewalkers and Physical Psychics are too I.S.P. dependant, IMO. Those two P.C.C.'s can only whip out their real ultimate power once or twice before they're out of gas.

(I think the medium is a surprisingly strong combat class, with immunity to possession and the ability to strike incorporeal beings.)

Running the numbers, an average dar'ota drops after 8 blasts from a heavy shotgun. Two beginning characters with HTH Basic and a WP can do it in one round. Parties and optimized monster fighters will do much better.

Heavy shotguns are good because they can fire all sorts of odd rounds. (For instance, one could load them with blessed wooden prayer beads instead of steel shot when contending with monsters vulnerable to wood or holy items.) Magnum revolvers offer the same damage in a concealable package. Both can do so at ranges monsters can not match, and both are genre-appropriate. (Hail to the King, baby!)

The real threat are entities. It takes eleven shots from a ghost gun to ice a possessing entity. Only the ghost hunter starts with one, and you can't pick up more at a sporting goods store.

[Richter]

To reply to some comments



Believe me, I want the party to have at least 1 "heavy hitter", however, we don't have alot of players, and im never gonna force someone into a class, they all had character ideas, and none of the, turned out to be heavy combatants. The closest thing we have is an Normal Person P.C.C. whos a former martial arts washed up movie star from the 80's, so he has some fairly decent stats, martial arts etc. Not much vs the supernatrual, but hes got some power no doubt.

My game's backing story has sort of a "missions" feel to it, so alot less wandering the streets kinda investigating, more like 'Something weird is going on at Location X and Y, go find out what it is, fix it, and report back"

For most of my writing, I've been using real life accts of ghost stories or other similar events, and modifying the accts to fit the BTS setting. Its just making sure its got enough investigative content, and multiple ways to solve it I'm trying to work on.

I have 1 underlying story that wont be apperent till later (its how the partys meets up in the first place, and will indeed come back to haunt them later) so that will have some reoccuring baddies to be sure.
I think for a while the "monster or issue of the week" will do fine, but I definately wanna throw some monkey wrenches into the system, esp if I can do it with far less lethal enemies. Like I said, even a pair of hell hounds could seriously mess this party up if theres some lucky rolls on my part. Some "soft" targets like maniac cultists is definately what I need, its just writing them into decent stories and being able to make them plentiful that I'm having an issue with.

Its easy in say, DnD, to populate a forest, the dungeon levels, etc with a buncha appropriate level monsters, give it a story and reason, and then toss in a big boss type guy at the end, but this game is far more complex than that.

The suggestions so far are very helpful tho, thank you!

[Sir Neil]

(Gah!? I spent six hours on this and it got eaten! I'll try and reconstruct it, but I gotta go to work in the morning. )

Well, if the game existed in a vacuum you'd be 100% correct, but smart play can make up for a lack of raw firepower.

It can. But smart playing starts by not lacking firepower. As they say, when heading for a gun fight, bring a gun.

I think Richter's players have already settled on the types of characters they want to play and none of them wants to play a heavy hitter.

None of them want to lose, either. I don't have enough information to give specific advice for each character, but Richter mentions 2d6 pipes and 3d6 guns.

The first thing they need to do is stop carrying toy guns. Smith & Wesson make snub nosed magnums, and some baby GLOCKs are chambered in .357 SIG, so there's no excuse for the shooters to do less than 6d6 no matter how small a piece they carry.

The second thing they should do is stop getting into melee with monsters if they don't have a magic sword, super strength, or Mystic China kung fu. It isn't always avoidable, but when it happens they should try to disengage and retreat to high S.D.C. structures and take potshots from cover.

You and CaptRory covered many of the things the DM can do. A pack of hellhounds might rip his group apart like garbage bags filled with steak, but if he plays up the mystique, he should only need to use one. Icing one hellhound isn't impressive, but stopping the predations of the White Hound of Westchester is a story for the ages.

I don't think everyone accepts it as a given that every party "should always include a major heavy hitter".

Then they haven't played enough.

Character creation shouldn't be done in a vacuum. This is a cooperative game, and certain roles should be filled to maximize the party's success. After all, everyone wants their character to have a chance to shine without stepping on other players' toes.

A first edition party needed an arcanist for lore skills and magic, and a psychic sensitive to sniff out monsters. I'd also recommend two martial artists, one with Shaolin or Dragon kung fu to fight ghosts and monsters, and the other with Mantis kung fu to perform exorcisms. Other strong choices were a parapsychologist for auxilliary brainpower and a psychic healer for post-battle recovery.

In second edition, psychic sensitives are too mentally fragile, so I'd bench 'em and send in a latent, a medium, or even a diviner. The arcanist is M.I.A., and the magic book isn't out yet, so a parapsychologist can sub okay. A natural and ghost hunter aren't as effective as the martial arts duo, but Mystic China always was higher powered.

As far as skills, every character needs HTH Basic, because it's no fun to do one thing and then sit around waiting while everyone else takes multiple turns. A modern Weapon Proficiency and Prowl are also group-must-haves, and dirt cheap at one secondary skill each.

Collectively, the critical skill programs for a BTS party are Espionage or Rogue, Medical, and Paranormal Studies. At least one member should have Computer Ops, Pilot Automobile, and Research. Ghost hunters should take Fencing and fighters without super strength should look at Kick Boxing*.

*Oddly, HTH Commando is so good no profession in the game lets you take it.

[Sir Neil]

The closest thing we have is an Normal Person P.C.C. whos a former martial arts washed up movie star from the 80's, so he has some fairly decent stats, martial arts etc.

I take it he's a fighting athlete/Normal than? What about the rest of the group?

Some "soft" targets like maniac cultists is definately what I need, its just writing them into decent stories and being able to make them plentiful that I'm having an issue with.

Oooh, I love busting up cults, Atramentus.

Palladium's already done some work for you, Richter: (from Rifts Undersea)

"You who are called Leviathan, the Kraken, the Lord of the Deep,
Are my Lord and Master.
I shall serve You and keep You fed.
You rule the oceans from the bottomless depths.
I shall see Your kingdom come to the lands of my people."

The Kraken lurks in the astral plane, reaching out to seize dreaming minds. Some escape, forever shaken; others are devoured.

And some swear fealty, and are given power.

The cult of the deep is strongest in South America, but cultists can be found across the globe. They operate in small cells, lead by a sea-witch (someone granted powers by their contact with the alien intelligence). They drown victims in salt water to feed Kraken the victim's P.P.E. With enough power it can be freed from its astral prison.

Filling in the holes in a group is important, but in my opinion, getting a good variety of skills is more important than raw damage potential.

Absolutely.

Actually its applicable to any ex-military character with the correct background.

Really? I know ex-military Comm engineers get bonus skills, but I never saw anything about other ex-military characters being allowed to select HTH commando.

[Richter]

(Gah!? I spent six hours on this and it got eaten! I'll try and reconstruct it, but I gotta go to work in the morning. )

Well, if the game existed in a vacuum you'd be 100% correct, but smart play can make up for a lack of raw firepower.

It can. But smart playing starts by not lacking firepower. As they say, when heading for a gun fight, bring a gun.


I don't like to tell people what they can and can't play, esp in a new game setting. A good GM should be able to set the game up for any party, some just need more work than others. This is one of those cases, if I can't find 1 more person for my game who wants to play big daddy dmg, I need weaker monsters, or alternate methods to have the encounters happen, as many suggestions here have given. If we were more familiar with the system and setting, I MAY suggest someone play a heavier dmg class for but I still am a big fan of "play whatcha want". Usually I have too many big tank guys, this is just the opposite heh.

I think Richter's players have already settled on the types of characters they want to play and none of them wants to play a heavy hitter.

None of them want to lose, either. I don't have enough information to give specific advice for each character, but Richter mentions 2d6 pipes and 3d6 guns.

The first thing they need to do is stop carrying toy guns. Smith & Wesson make snub nosed magnums, and some baby GLOCKs are chambered in .357 SIG, so there's no excuse for the shooters to do less than 6d6 no matter how small a piece they carry.

The second thing they should do is stop getting into melee with monsters if they don't have a magic sword, super strength, or Mystic China kung fu. It isn't always avoidable, but when it happens they should try to disengage and retreat to high S.D.C. structures and take potshots from cover.

The problem I see here is I think we have different ideas of the setting, or at least, how I'm choosing to run this one. This is a lvl 1 party, half of them know nothing of the supernatural. They are being very role play about this (a nice change from our norm games) so none of them are decked to the hilt with massive firearms, nor would any of them even know what to buy in character if it came to that. So the "standard" weapons listed for the classes, is what they have. 1 character is a beat cop, so hes got his trusty 9mm, and the parapsychologist has a little revolver for home defense, and of course, the 80's martial artist has his nunchucks =p. But roleplay wise, class wise, and logic wise, theres no reason for them to have anything bigger.

On a NON roleplay note, I personally don't know where your getting the stats for different damage on various bullets etc. I cant recall any pistol but a .44 mag doing 6D6. I own just about every Palladium basic book, so if ya could direct me to your dmg/bullet/gun sources, I'd appreciate it. Even the 1st Ed BTS book equip section and the Compendium of Weapons have conflicting gun/dmg stats so any help here would be appreciated. I'm sure AFTER a few encounters, the party will be happy to purchase something with some real stopping power, and the cop can help with this but until then, it doesn't help the situation.

I don't think everyone accepts it as a given that every party "should always include a major heavy hitter".

Then they haven't played enough.

Character creation shouldn't be done in a vacuum. This is a cooperative game, and certain roles should be filled to maximize the party's success. After all, everyone wants their character to have a chance to shine without stepping on other players' toes.


This is true, but I addressed this above. A good old DnD party can get by without a warrior, but good lord is it hard to do w/o him. im just looking for alternate ways to handle the situation is all.

As for the mystic china stuff etc, im sticking to very basics for this game. Handbook only classes etc, it takes place in Phoenix AZ. No wacky goofy stuff, I need to know how chars MEANT to be in the world, following their rules etc, can handle these threats.

For the record:

Ordinary person - Movie star (martial artist)
Psi mechanic (Beat Cop)
Psych Latent (College professor's assistant)
Parapsych (poor College prof)

P.S. I always mess up multi quotes, so my text is in bold =p

[Richter]

Don't forget that the NPC can be a usefull tool as well. If a particular group is lacking something an NPC can pick up the slack. Just be careful with balance. Your NPC shouldn't be too available or too uberpowerful. But when your group gets in too deep, once in a while it is okay to call in the cavalry so to speak.

As far as how to integrate an NPC, a good method is the "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Maybe your group aren't the only ones looking for little johnny and little susie.

Just my two pennies.

No arguements here, but im trying to avoid 2 things

The first being, Im trying to keep my "active" npc's down to a minimum. Again, my first time running the game, and I dont GM Palladium ruleset often, so anything to cause me less distraction during my game is good.

The other problem being, were missing the beef! If I NPC the combat master, I can easily take alot away from the player group. That is surely not my desire or intention. Its not like they need an information class, and I can have them cellphone up the antiquities dealer whos also a parapsych and him him tell the party how to kill a boogeyman. This is the action guy, who commands and directs the combat of the party, and who will most likely get kill shots and all that other fun love we all get from fights. If me as the Gm is doing that, it detracts from the fun. It also removes any chance for intelligent combat that isnt a devised plan because I'm playing against myself at this point, which I don't want.

I have been toying with the idea of him being an NPC to come along for "big" missions, but even then im hesitant.

[Richter]

Sir Neil,



Oooo...that Kraken bit won't fit in with my main plotline but....I think I can take from that, thank you.

Maybe owning Underseas all these years will FINALLY pay off and be used for something (grats Ocean magic? wth)

Appreciate the help folks, this is actually turning into a decent discussion too, keep it coming

[Richter]

What about the inclusion of support NPCs like guys who whip up explosives and special ammunition, antique peddlars, etc. People the group can tap for a little extra firepower when the going gets tough. "Well, I did whip up a dozen explosive AP rounds, I guess I could sell them to you if you're up against a X." Or, "Ahhh, so you're battling a Y! I will let you borrow the Vase of Insert Name from Dead Language Here. Point it at the creature and close the lid, and whatever you do, don't break it! You break it you buy it!"

Already got stuff like that written, just gotta get the PC's to that point.
Im more concerned with the first few encounters/missions, the combat untrained characters (missing WP's, HTH styles etc), and the long term impact that will have during "The Ruckus"

The antique dealer is a new angle tho....lemme work on that

[Sir Neil]

I still am a big fan of "play whatcha want".

I agree, mostly (No Autistics or Negas need apply for my games).

I think we have different ideas of the setting, or at least, how I'm choosing to run this one.

Naturally.

In my games, PCs hunt "strangers" from beyond the rifts. The strangers can not contest the dominion of man by main force, so they pick away at the edges, striking at innocent people from the shadows. The group is expected to have the skills to find these strangers and the power to stop them, or at least contain them until reinforcements arrive.

I've played and run other styles, but that's what I think of when someone mentions BTS.

1 character is a beat cop, so hes got his trusty 9mm, and the parapsychologist has a little revolver for home defense, and of course, the 80's martial artist has his nunchucks =p.

Many departments use .40 caliber these days, and there's probably a shotgun or rifle in the trunk of his cruiser; the Palladium poster Gaius is a policeman in Mesa, Arizona, and you could PM him to find out what his department issues. The character should also have a vest, adding about 50 S.D.C. and letting him serve as a meat shield.

The parapsy might have had a good salesman, who sold him a .357 and advised him to load it with .38's. (Not all revolvers are dual-use, mind.) Because it's constructed to handle magnum rounds, it'll absorb any recoil from the lighter rounds, making it easier for the new owner to control. (So says a cop I knew.) Once he gets into trouble, of course, it's a breeze for him to buy a box of the good stuff for double damage.

Nunchucks?! *facepalm* Whatever, I love a challenge. They do 2d6 in the current books, which is less than you can do with Kick Boxing or Fencing; and wielding silver nunchucks to fight certain monsters... no. Just... no. He's a movie star, reduced to smaller and cheezier action films, so it could be argued that he picked up a modern weapon proficiency from starring in Cowboy Ninja in Devil's Canyon, Return of Cowboy Ninja, Son of Cowboy Ninja, and (his magnum opus) Return of the Son of Cowboy Ninja in Devil's Canyon.

(My favorite scene had to be at the end, when the Devil Injuns surrounded Ma, raising their ghostly tomahawks to scalp her when the Son of Cowboy Ninja leaped in, standing protectively over Ma while twirling his shotgun around his body like nunchucks, firing away as the Winchester spun. Now that's real ultimate power, pilgrim.)

But roleplay wise, class wise, and logic wise, theres no reason for them to have anything bigger.

And that's okay, too. Send them against wimped out monsters. An average bogey man might have 120 hp, but a minimal one only has 70 hp. Still a challenge, and they won't know he rolled straight 1's for every stat. Wimped out hell hounds drop after only 30 silver damage, or about two silvered magnum rounds.

...if ya could direct me to your dmg/bullet/gun sources, I'd appreciate it.

Sure. Most of it is in BTS 2e, page 215. I'd say a light pistol is a .22 or .32 caliber, a 3d6 medium is .38 cal./9mm, and it explicitly says heavy is .45 cal., surpassed only by magnum damage. (I'd probably classify a .40 cal as a 4d6 medium and a 10mm as heavy, if you're wondering.)

I'd say a light rifle is 5.56mm, a heavy is .50 caliber, and a medium is 7.62mm, except hunting rifles are said to do heavy damage, and most of those are around .30 caliber.

I'm less up on shotguns, so I'd use .410, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge for light, medium, and heavy. Although I'm not sure .410 is smaller than 20 gauge, none of my players are as fluent with guns as I am, so it's close enough for government work.

Different guns can be found at the manufacturer's sites. Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armory, Heckler & Koch, GLOCK, Remmington, etc. Wikipedia has pretty good links for all of it.

No wacky goofy stuff, I need to know how chars MEANT to be in the world, following their rules etc, can handle these threats.

Naturals with super strength can pin a vampire until sunrise or bury them under tossed cars. Ghost hunters and psi mechs can just walk up and shoot an entity in the face with telekinetic bullets. Physical psychics use demon punches to slap around ghosts while firewalkers just light 'em up.

You know what happens to lairing bogeymen, dar'ota, and dybbuks when the SWAT team kicks in their door? The monsters die from concetrated machinegun fire, like everyone else does.

*The Mystic China guys aren't rift-tossed. Remember, Vic Lazlo has met them.

[Sir Neil]

the combat untrained characters (missing WP's, HTH styles etc)

And now we run into Palladium's weak spot. Characters don't really grow as they level, and even if they did, it takes forever. Physical skills are one thing, but if you don't get HTH and WP when you start, you're screwed.

How did the college professor meet the assistant? Could it not have been at a self-defense class, where they discovered a mutual interest in parapsycholgy? The assistant might have been raised on a farm with six brothers, learning how to fight from them.

I think I can take from that, thank you.

I'm glad to point you to it, but I think it's all Kevin's idea.

Importing the education system from HU2 is excellent, Capt, but better if you could somehow get the new skills up to match the character level.

"Well, I did whip up a dozen explosive AP rounds, I guess I could sell them to you if you're up against a X." Or, "Ahhh, so you're battling a Y! I will let you borrow the Vase of Insert Name from Dead Language Here. Point it at the creature and close the lid, and whatever you do, don't break it! You break it you buy it!"

Awesome.

[Richter]

You know what happens to lairing bogeymen, dar'ota, and dybbuks when the SWAT team kicks in their door? The monsters die from concetrated machinegun fire, like everyone else does.

That has got to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Had people in the next cubicle asking me what was so funny, I just told em, it's not worth explaining.

I was unaware of the mystic china guys not being from Rifts, apologies about that. Still, I'd like to stick to native character types for the setting and the state im running it in.

Appreciate the pointing out of the dmg per bullet section. It sorta ruins half of whats written in the "big book of guns" tho, which is frustrating.

Im also still "wth-ing" over the 7D6 Rifles.....where exactly did THIS come from?

[Sir Neil]

That has got to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

I know not everyone wants a horror game with Kung-Fu Grip, but my group had so much fun with it I had to mention it. (Incidentally, I dug it out the other day and reviewed it. You don't need Mantis form for exorcism, Dragon stylists can do it too. Which is good, because Mantis is lame. I amend my suggestion: get a Dragon for the magic sword power and exorcism, and either Shaolin or Tiger for the S.D.C.)

The Big Book O' Guns was good. Twenty years ago, when they still made those weapons. Nowadays, reading it just makes me a sad panda. It doesn't have the G36, the MP 5/10, the USP... don't even get me started on the vehicles.

[Richter]

So about the modern weapon dmg and the listings in BTS...


None of those damages listed are even remotely close to any of the past Palladium products. The damage ratings have gone way way up it looks like.

Now I understand BTS 2nd Ed and Rifts UE are the "new" rulesets for Palladium, but RiftsUE doesnt cover old school SDC weapons, so, is the dmg listings in BTS2 the new "standard" for modern weapon damage?

Like does all that translate properly into say, TMNT and HU?

I only ask because, natrually, as a universal system, I expect the weaponry to be the same as well. The new dmg in BTS "seem" very very high to me, but then again, when comparing it to the SDC/HP of the monsters, it seems to make sense, least from movie and novel standpoints etc, but play balance can become an issue.

Also, none of the burst amounts listed seem to be using the proper amount of ammo IMO, but I'm no gun expert.

Any opinions on the "new" sdc modern weapon settings?

Also, this seems to totally debunk the usage of the Modern Weapon Compendium, blah

[Sir Neil]

I think the "high damage gun, low S.D.C. human" is an improvement. Palladium yammered on for years about how characters should be afraid of guns, but the rules never backed them up. (Unless you used optional rules that don't work.) Guns are a little scarier now, and that's good.

I like that they give stats for 3-round bursts. (Most pistols are NOT automatic, btw.) I don't know how many rounds a machine gun is supposed to fire in a burst, so I can't speak to that.

Pistols haven't changed much (9mm does 1d more than before, .45's are the same), but shoulder arms and heavy weapons have been ramped up, and can fire more bursts than before. This is going to screw up HL2 more, because they were already too vulnerable to guns.

The Compedium of Contemporary Weaponry doesn't have a place at the table anymore. Now it's just something for Maryann to sign if you meet her at a convention.

[Richter]

Well for bursts, surprisingly the generic rules listed in the old Rifts books hold true.

A short burst on real modern weapons is usually 20% of the clip. So just do a little division. I noticed this DOESNT apply to the listed #'s of rounds used in a short burst in the new BTS book. Its a minor easily fixed issue tho.

The few exceptions are weapons which usually list its capabilities, like an M-16 can fire single round, 3 round burst, or full auto etc.

Like I said, if the damages dont unbalance anything, I'll just use em as listed. And yeah, guns ARE spose to be lethal, I just dislike the idea of a random gunshot instantly killing a character, but yaknow, thems the breaks heh

[Sir Neil]

I don't know how many rounds a machine gun is supposed to fire in a burst, so I can't speak to that.

I learned the answer when I was in Missouri. They taught us to fire about 3-5 round bursts from light machine guns and 6-9 with the heavier weapons.