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Why cancel Nightbane: Shadows of Light?

Someone just brought to my attention that there has been rampant speculation on why we cancelled the Nightbane sourcebook, Shadows of Light. That’s an easy one . . .

Um, in case you haven’t noticed, Palladium Books is in financial difficulty, and is fighting to stay alive!!!! Consequently, we will be discontinuing books that are slow sellers. It took a little more than three years to sell the initial print run of about 2500 copies. That's half the usual press run for our books which usually sell out in one year. Not exactly a smash hit, so it is cancelled/discontinued. We may reprint the book at some point in the future (as in years in the future) or we may offer it as a PDF next year for a reasonable fee (we may be offering a number of our out of print books as PDF files in the year to come).

Because Palladium has a long history of keeping most of it’s books in print all the time, people notice it when we discontinue one. Well, with our current crisis and a soft RPG market, you can expect to see Palladium discontinue more slow titles in the months to come.

We also have a dozen key, major titles (Juicer Uprising, Rifts® Free Quebec, Coalition War Campaign, Mindwerks, Wolfen Empire, Powers Unlimited Two, to name a few) that remain “temporarily” out of print, with other titles running low. They will be back! We just don’t know when yet, or how soon. Our resources are limited.

Like I keep telling people, thanks to our fans, Palladium is here today and Palladium’s situation is much better than it was back in April, 2006. However, our long-term future remains uncertain. We are optimistic and full of ideas, but we still have a long way to go before Palladium is completely healthy and back on its feet. Please bear with us. We’re doing the best we can to keep key books in print and new titles coming.

I apologize for those of you disappointed, frustrated or dismayed about how long it is taking us to reprint vital books. We are working hard to keep Palladium running and to get back on our feet, but it will take us a while to do so. I hope you understand.

Keep the faith.

Kevin Siembieda
Publisher, Flag Bearer and the Guy Who Has to Make the Tough Decisions
August 16, 2006

Thanks for the update.

Figured I better post this here, too.

On a brighter note, let me say that I have every intention of keeping Nightbane going. I loved CJ's original concepts and heroes who have the power to save the world only a) they have to turn into monsters to use their powers, and b) they don't know how to use those powers (yet) to save the world! Nice.

Could it be a Nightlord's plot? I don't know, but the Nightbane line has suffered its share of bad luck. CJ left shortly after it's launch, Kevin Hassall left for more lucrative paying work after just one book, things didn't work out with Jason Vey (I'm not happy with his work), and a couple of potential freelancers since either didn't follow through and vanished, or I didn't like the direction they wanted to take the line.

Personally, I'd like to see a new writer(s) pick up where CJ left off and give us MUCH more information about the Nightbane (and playing them), their mission/purpose, Nightlord conspiracies, why are the Nightbane a danger to the Nightlords, and similar. I've had ideas for a couple of sourcebooks myself, but I have other commitments.

I can say, that I have spoken to one particular new guy who sounds like he really has a handle on where to take the Nightbane line. We talked about his doing a couple of sourcebooks and with any luck we'll have something by the end of 2007, but I've got him working on a weird and wonderful secret project first. (No, not for Nightbane. And no, I'm not gonna tell you his name or what the project is, at least not yet). Keep your fingers crossed that we can thwart the Nightlords' sinister plot and get a couple new Nightbane sourcebooks out next year!!!!

Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Publisher and Mastermind of Future Product

Well, one of the positive aspects of the Crisis of Treachery and Palladium's plea for help defenitely is, that we - the fans - now get explanations and postings from The Man himself. I really appreciate this.

on topic:

1) Actually, it's no wonder that SoL didnt sell well - but the explanation given is way too simple in my opinion. Blaming it on the author is the easy thing, but there sure are other factors for SoL being a "slow seller". For instance, if for six (!!) years you dont publish ANYTHING new for a small RPG-system like Nightbane, its a bit like killing it off: The hardcore-fans who love the game will still play it, they will have developed their own ideas and material to keep the adventure going and the campaign(s) running. But people who want more support will have been long gone. And new buyers may not be attracted to a gaming-system with no support whatsoever (sometimes you can smell the corpse of a dying system). So, once you bring out a new book after six long years, most of the buyers will come from the small segment of hardcore-fans, all the others having shifted their attention to other systems / games. (I guess if PB would publish a sourcebook for, say, Systems Failure, it wouldnt sell good at all...and that wouldnt automatically be the fault of the author).

2) If KS says that he wasnt happy with Jason Vey's work, I think the question is justified: Why did Palladium Books print it then?? Why did PB not change the stuff KS didnt like or have the author himself re-write it?? Is PB not standing behind their own published books?

3) KS documented will to keep Nightbane alive is very positive. As a GM of Palladium Fantasy, Nightbane and BtS I am not optimistic that I see any stuff for the PB-systems I play and love because PB concentrated on RIFTS so much in the past years and in their economic crisis they will probably relay even more on their biggest seller. But, of course, I still hope to see new Nightbane-material.

Vidynn wrote: 2) If KS says that he wasnt happy with Jason Vey's work, I think the question is justified: Why did Palladium Books print it then?? Why did PB not change the stuff KS didnt like or have the author himself re-write it?? Is PB not standing behind their own published books?

Vidynn, Kevin DID edit the book. Whole chunks of material were removed, such as the "true" Knights Templar (only the Dark Slayer O.C.C. remains). Also, at least a couple of the new psychic O.C.C.s were edited. The Psi-Leech wasn't supposed to have those wolverine-like "psychic claws". Those were added by Kevin. Likewise, many of the powers for the Psi-Illusionist, particularly the higher level ones, were tweaked. The Voynich Manuscript became the Venice/Cipher Manuscript.

Personally, I'd rather see Nightbane stay outside the whole Minion Wars deal. It was pretty much conceived from the beginning to be its own standalone universe and too much crossover kind of dilutes it.

Nerdbane wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:Personally, I'd rather see Nightbane stay outside the whole Minion Wars deal. It was pretty much conceived from the beginning to be its own standalone universe and too much crossover kind of dilutes it.

I agree that Nightbane works best the less diluted it is. Having said that, I've already made peace with the 4-way power struggle in the Dark Day universe, between Nightbane, Nightlords, vampires, and demons (with humans either caught in the middle or taking up sides, depending on your campaign).

Uh...wait, how is this differnt. that IS the currnet power struggle as already laied out in the books

Indeed, you have to be careful about what you add to the game and where you add it, otherwise it loses its distinctiveness.

Mike Taylor wrote:Vidynn, Kevin DID edit the book. Whole chunks of material were removed....

Yes, but the question remains: Why does KS / PB publish a book he is not happy about? For me, it's either: Publish it and stand 100% behind it, or use your power as Publisher / Editor and cancel it, if you feel that even with additions, tweaking, editing its not good enough to be part of the Nightbane-line.

Nerdbane wrote:Then, time went by, and as often happens, things changed. The factors that played into the decision to publish may have changed, or KS's perception of them may have changed. He ultimately wasn't happy with the decision he made. He doesn't have a time machine, so he can't go back and un-make the decision. But he can come up with a new plan, where he lets the book go out of print and moves on.

Nerdbane, good post, valid arguments. I can accept that views change, that economic factors etc. change and I can certainly accept the decision, not to reprint SoL (for the time being, that is). But, I dont like putting all the blame on J. Vey, the responsible way for me would have been for KS or PB to say, okay, WE all made mistakes by publishing this book - and that, in the end, its KS' responsibility alone, what PB publishes and what not.

Rocinante wrote:I wasn't all that happy with Shadows of Light myself. Like Kevin, I want more about the Nightbane, not silly angel-creatures that don't really fit CJ's setting. Nightbane already has silly angel-creatures with the Lightbringers, so more of the same wasn't needed.

Here's the funny thing, when the Athanatos were introduced in The Rifter, they got a fairly positive response from the folks who read the article. I would also add that the Athanatos and the Lightbringers are not the same. Not by a long shot. They have vastly different powers, different goals, different perspectives on the war against the Dark. Also, despite the amount of detail Jason gave them, the Athanatos' footprint on the ongoing conflict is MUCH smaller than that of the Lightbringers.

So then, is the material contained within still considered Canon?

Vidynn wrote:Nerdbane, good post, valid arguments. I can accept that views change, that economic factors etc. change and I can certainly accept the decision, not to reprint SoL (for the time being, that is). But, I dont like putting all the blame on J. Vey, the responsible way for me would have been for KS or PB to say, okay, WE all made mistakes by publishing this book - and that, in the end, its KS' responsibility alone, what PB publishes and what not.

Completely agree and seconded.

That's an issue that could have been clarified with more thorough editing and more collaboration between Jason and Kev during such editing. As it was, Jason was in the dark about a lot of the changes until the book went to print.

Marrowlight wrote:So then, is the material contained within still considered Canon?

I would say, certainly, yes. It is still an official part of the Nightbane-system.

Nerdbane wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:Personally, I'd rather see Nightbane stay outside the whole Minion Wars deal. It was pretty much conceived from the beginning to be its own standalone universe and too much crossover kind of dilutes it.

I agree that Nightbane works best the less diluted it is. Having said that, I've already made peace with the 4-way power struggle in the Dark Day universe, between Nightbane, Nightlords, vampires, and demons (with humans either caught in the middle or taking up sides, depending on your campaign).

Uh...wait, how is this differnt. that IS the currnet power struggle as already laied out in the books

Sorry, guess I wasn't making the point very clearly. Try this:

- Mike said he'd like to see Nightbane stay away from crossovers, which I agree with as a blanket statement.

- Mike also said that he hopes Nightbane stays outside the Minion War, which I'm ambivalent about. This is also moot because as far as I know all the potential volumes of Minion War have been announced and there's no Nightbane connection.

- I'm ambivalent because I will ultimately decide for myself whether or not to use any Minion War material in my Nightbane campaign. A new rule that Nightlords take quadruple damage from Unholy Weapons forged in Dyval? No thanks. Maps of Hades which I could use if my players ever decide to make their way to Hades for some demon-vengeance? Yes please.

- The reason I'd like more info about Hades is because I've already alluded to it in my campaign. The reason for that is because the Nightlords/Nightbane/vampire/demon 4-way is already in the Nightbane books.

- The reason I can agree with a blanket statement about Nightbane avoiding crossovers in general is because I like the 4-way balance the way it is. I might have been even happier if it was always a 3-way between Nightlords/Nightbane/vampires, or even a 2-way, but what's done is done. However, if a BtS crossover introduced a 5th army of evil Sowki or a 6th faction of mercenary were-serpents, that would really be too much, IMO.

da Nerdbane

I agree.

Personally? For a pure nightbane game, I would like to keep Hades/Dyval out of it entirely

I think the Red Flame Demons are plenty of material for Nightbane all on their own.

Yeah, I noticed some of the changes that were made to Shadows of Light versus the article in Rifter #16 about the Athanatos. I still don't know as to whether or not they made a good addition to Nightbane or not. They're basically Spirits of Light in human form.

I'm still scratching my head over The Minion War crossover with Nightbane, if it happens. I'm still waiting to see a Nightlord try to cross over from the Nightlands to Rifts Earth and take on The Splugorth, the vampire lords in Mexico, the NGR, the Coalition, Federation of Magic, Lord of the Deep, etc.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to this question: Is Shadows of Light offical canon or not? I am happy I have my own copy of the book.

Not to fret, SoL is still canon (well... at least for the most part).

Kevin himself even said that there is a slim chance it might be reprinted one day (though it's probably more likely to be released as a PDF). He didn't detest the entire book, he just wasn't happy with how it turned out (and apparently many fans weren't either).

Only at the whims of those of us with the power to summon him... *cackles evilly*

Heh, that was just my smartass way of saying that Jason only posts here if someone brings something to his attention. He's usually over at RPG.net or the Eden Studios forum.

Tyciol wrote:Why are the humans, sorcerers, guardians, athanatos and reapers being left out?

Also, I really like those tribes of the moon and those other winged angel-like peopel from Rifter 1.

Humans, sorcerers, and Guardians are still integral to the series. The Athanatos and Reapers weren't a great fit, but they still remain canon as well.

I like the basic concept behind Tribes of the Moon, but I found the execution lacking. I know there has been interest from people in a re-write of that material for book publication, but who knows? As far as the Inlustri (I believe those are the winged race of psionics from the Rifter), I didn't care much for them, and hope that they stay in the realm of Rifter material.

Tyciol wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nerdbane wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:Personally, I'd rather see Nightbane stay outside the whole Minion Wars deal. It was pretty much conceived from the beginning to be its own standalone universe and too much crossover kind of dilutes it.

I agree that Nightbane works best the less diluted it is. Having said that, I've already made peace with the 4-way power struggle in the Dark Day universe, between Nightbane, Nightlords, vampires, and demons (with humans either caught in the middle or taking up sides, depending on your campaign).

Uh...wait, how is this differnt. that IS the currnet power struggle as already laied out in the books

Why are the humans, sorcerers, guardians, athanatos and reapers being left out?

Compartivly minor. it's like asking why a villiage militia on the boarder has no overall bearing on a big war.

Well Im glad I bought my copy of SoL before all this happened. Just the other day I was going to show a buddy the book and have him buy the book online, but couldnt figure out why it wasnt on the website lol....guess this makes everything make sense now

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Don't hold your breath waiting for it to be reprinted.....but if there is a NB revival then they still have it to reprint.

Umm a number of the concepts / articles were already printed in the rifter..especialy the Athanatos.. so it's not a complete "ugh" situation if you already own the requisite rifters

I liked the book, was a refreshing take on the Nightbane world.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

NovenTheHero wrote:I liked the book, was a refreshing take on the Nightbane world.

There were some cool things in the book, but it felt like Sir Ector was telling the Authurian legends with Ector finding the Grail and all.

Still wasnt worth DISCONTINUING a book lol. I mean for real...

Oh and you're a siggy picture thief!

NovenTheHero wrote:Still wasnt worth DISCONTINUING a book lol.

Maybe not, but I think the "less-than-stellar" sales probably had more to do with it being pulled (on top of the plethora of negative fan-feedback).

The quality of the book just didn't warrent its reprinting at the moment, especially in these lean times for Palladium.

Still, if you think the book is worth bringing back, write Kev a letter. I'm sure if enough people share the same sentiment, it might inspire him to do at least a limited print run.

Warwolf wrote:

NovenTheHero wrote:Still wasnt worth DISCONTINUING a book lol.

Maybe not, but I think the "less-than-stellar" sales probably had more to do with it being pulled (on top of the plethora of negative fan-feedback).

The quality of the book just didn't warrent its reprinting at the moment, especially in these lean times for Palladium.

Still, if you think the book is worth bringing back, write Kev a letter. I'm sure if enough people share the same sentiment, it might inspire him to do at least a limited print run.

Hasn't stopped the SoT

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Marrowlight wrote:

Warwolf wrote:

NovenTheHero wrote:Still wasnt worth DISCONTINUING a book lol.

Maybe not, but I think the "less-than-stellar" sales probably had more to do with it being pulled (on top of the plethora of negative fan-feedback).

The quality of the book just didn't warrent its reprinting at the moment, especially in these lean times for Palladium.

Still, if you think the book is worth bringing back, write Kev a letter. I'm sure if enough people share the same sentiment, it might inspire him to do at least a limited print run.

Hasn't stopped the SoT

Marrowlight for the win.

Marrowlight wrote:Hasn't stopped the SoT

Do you have figures on that negative feedback, or are you just running off of the limited sample of the fans on this board (and I'll have you know that there are people that do like the books... rough as they may be in places)?

Oh, and are any of them in their 2nd printing anyway?

Actually, i was making a joke. The emote it the key there -- but since you seemed quite serious yourself earlier, if you've magically got access to figures on the negative reactions for any and all Palladium Books I'd love to see them.

Okay, before this degenerates into a flame war I'd like to point out that Jason himself doesn't consider Shadows of Light to be his best work. When the author says he isn't pleased, that should be telling enough.

Mike Taylor wrote:Okay, before this degenerates into a flame war I'd like to point out that Jason himself doesn't consider Shadows of Light to be his best work. When the author says he isn't pleased, that should be telling enough.

I still like it =P

And now we come back to the problem with the line. It can't keep a writer. The only person who has supplied more than one book for it was CJ himself. After that, Kevin Hassall and Jason Vey each provided one book.

I'm afraid that even if there was a new book, it wouldn't generate much interest. The line has stagnated for too long.

Gothic_Ronin wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:And now we come back to the problem with the line. It can't keep a writer. The only person who has supplied more than one book for it was CJ himself. After that, Kevin Hassall and Jason Vey each provided one book.

I'm afraid that even if there was a new book, it wouldn't generate much interest. The line has stagnated for too long.

Very true. I have a very difficult time seeing Nightbane ever take off even if they make new books. With as long as the line hasnt been supported. It suprises me how many Palladium fans I know who dont even know it exists. Other than myself I know no gms who even run it anymore. To be honest my players love the game but I am flat burnt out on haveing to keep hand making things to keep the game going. (Thats sad sinc making stuff up for a game is my favorite part)

Well, hopefully Mike is wrong and there is enough "old blood" who are fans of the line to support the it as it comes back to life. There is a new book due out this year (in case you guys didn't notice), so hopefully we'll be seeing more stuff for this line in years to come (it's needed some love for a while now).

Warwolf wrote:

Gothic_Ronin wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:And now we come back to the problem with the line. It can't keep a writer. The only person who has supplied more than one book for it was CJ himself. After that, Kevin Hassall and Jason Vey each provided one book.

I'm afraid that even if there was a new book, it wouldn't generate much interest. The line has stagnated for too long.

Very true. I have a very difficult time seeing Nightbane ever take off even if they make new books. With as long as the line hasnt been supported. It suprises me how many Palladium fans I know who dont even know it exists. Other than myself I know no gms who even run it anymore. To be honest my players love the game but I am flat burnt out on haveing to keep hand making things to keep the game going. (Thats sad sinc making stuff up for a game is my favorite part)

Well, hopefully Mike is wrong and there is enough "old blood" who are fans of the line to support the it as it comes back to life. There is a new book due out this year (in case you guys didn't notice), so hopefully we'll be seeing more stuff for this line in years to come (it's needed some love for a while now).

Will believe it when I have it in my hands and not a second before. Hardships or not, we've all done this dance with Palladium 20 times too many.

Uncle Misfit wrote:

Marrowlight wrote:

Warwolf wrote:

Gothic_Ronin wrote:

Mike Taylor wrote:And now we come back to the problem with the line. It can't keep a writer. The only person who has supplied more than one book for it was CJ himself. After that, Kevin Hassall and Jason Vey each provided one book.

I'm afraid that even if there was a new book, it wouldn't generate much interest. The line has stagnated for too long.

Very true. I have a very difficult time seeing Nightbane ever take off even if they make new books. With as long as the line hasnt been supported. It suprises me how many Palladium fans I know who dont even know it exists. Other than myself I know no gms who even run it anymore. To be honest my players love the game but I am flat burnt out on haveing to keep hand making things to keep the game going. (Thats sad sinc making stuff up for a game is my favorite part)

Well, hopefully Mike is wrong and there is enough "old blood" who are fans of the line to support the it as it comes back to life. There is a new book due out this year (in case you guys didn't notice), so hopefully we'll be seeing more stuff for this line in years to come (it's needed some love for a while now).

Will believe it when I have it in my hands and not a second before. Hardships or not, we've all done this dance with Palladium 20 times too many.

Only twenty times?

I was being kind.

Gothic_Ronin wrote:So far all I have seen is talk about the "New" book. Im with Marrow I will belive it when I see a book in my hands. I also heard there is a book at the end of last year...... People say alot of things, but that dont make it a fact. I mean I tell my brother Im gunna kill him when he takes the last beer but that dont mean I really will. Well maybe..........

And here I thought I had inspired some hope...

Well, Kevin has stated that it is under development by a team that "seems to know what direction to take it".

As that's more than we've had in years, I'd say it's cause to be a bit more optimistic.

But maybe that's just Misfit and I.

Warwolf wrote:Well, Kevin has stated that it is under development by a team that "seems to know what direction to take it".

And we were told that the BtS2 supplements would be out soon after its release as well.

I'll be surprised if this is something that is out by the end of next year, personally. Seeing as how it is "under development" currently and there is a backlog of finished material that is waiting to be released (see: Minion Wars books, Rifts Deep Souths, PFRPG Mysteries of Magic, Chaos Earth Supplements, etc.) - not to mention the other properties that are also "under development" that will take time (see: Robotech and Warpath) - the end of next year would surprise me.

That is, unless the line got its own editor. That would speed the process up a tad. However, I think that scenario is about as likely as getting to see a finalized LOD3 by the end of the month.

Don't get any hope up at all. Things happen and you can't rely on a book coming out when you want it until you see that big announcement, "IT IS HERE!"



I know I've said that before but I have been using PB products for a long, long time and that is just how you have to handle it to avoid disappointment.

MASTERMIND wrote:Things happen and you can't rely on a book coming out when you want it until you see that big announcement, "IT IS HERE!"

Unfortunately, that's the truth.

Steve President George W. Bush wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:Things happen and you can't rely on a book coming out when you want it until you see that big announcement, "IT IS HERE!"

Unfortunately, that's the truth.

Cynics.

I'm not saying that the book will actually come out THIS YEAR (though one could hope... a little), though there is at least work being done for a book in the line.

It's (quite literally) a start.

Warwolf wrote:

Steve President George W. Bush wrote:

MASTERMIND wrote:Things happen and you can't rely on a book coming out when you want it until you see that big announcement, "IT IS HERE!"

Unfortunately, that's the truth.

Cynics.

I'm not saying that the book will actually come out THIS YEAR (though one could hope... a little), though there is at least work being done for a book in the line.

It's (quite literally) a start.

Cynics? NAY I SAY! NAY! Just realists based on passed experience. I won't believe a word they say until they can show me the book in print.

I love to see some NB stuff out, but Palladium got rid of 10% of it's staffers..... I see realists as being the true optomists. Pragmatic,
as well. I'd like to see more in the Rifter. I'd love to write something for this line, but lack the imaginative skills to do it.
G

Grandil wrote:I love to see some NB stuff out, but Palladium got rid of 10% of it's staffers.....

Um, no. The only staff to leave in the past several years that I know of were Steve Sheiring (for obvious reasons) and Maryann. Both of which have been replaced since then (by Tony Falzon and Kathy Simmons).

You may be referring to freelancers, but I believe they have just as many long-term freelance writers now as they did when C.J. and Bill did work for them (if not more). Who knows, if things work out with the new Nightbane book, perhaps there will be even a couple more.

the only thing that you can be sure of with palladium is there will be at least a rifts book or two released once a year. Anything else is just rumor, and it usually stays that way: a rumor.

sawg138 wrote:

Ridley wrote:the only thing that you can be sure of with palladium is there will be at least a rifts book or two released once a year. Anything else is just rumor, and it usually stays that way: a rumor.

Unless it came from the Kevin's mouth at OH and one knows the authors involved.

can i get a hint?

please?

Ridley wrote:the only thing that you can be sure of with palladium is there will be at least a rifts book or two released once a year. Anything else is just rumor, and it usually stays that way: a rumor.

Well, the newest press release states that they are shooting for October of this year.

Let's keep our fingers crossed everyone.