What Balance do you think BTS Games need?

[gaby]

I think Good games must have a Balance.

Well I have a Number limit of powered players in a Group, so the group can be in real Danger and have a chance of geting Killed.

In My Player Group,the powered people are limit to 2,(1)a Psychic Sensitive or a other Supernatural detector,(2)some one with Physical power,Others in the Group take Parapsychologist,Genius and Ordinary people.

Tell Me What you think?

[dark brandon]

I think Good games must have a Balance.

Well I have a Number limit of powered players in a Group, so the group can be in real Danger and have a chance of geting Killed.

In My Player Group,the powered people are limit to 2,(1)a Psychic Sensitive or a other Supernatural detector,(2)some one with Physical power,Others in the Group take Parapsychologist,Genius and Ordinary people.

Tell Me What you think?

There is none in my group. I don't use any of the OCC's in the book, because all are simply far too powerful to play in a horror game. Most start out with too many powers, and some (like the medium) are basically immune to a whole spectrum of enemies.

Power in my group consists of house made psionics and powers. For example, a healer is only able to transfer wounds to themselves then heal it, which cost ISP no more "healing touch". If they want to heal themselves, they have bio-regen.

the fire-walker are limited in the range in their powers. 1 fire walker.

Psi-mechanics are non-existant.

Ghost hunters have an ability that basically allows them to hurt anything, but each attack costs him ISP, none of this "5 minutes per level".

Laten psinoics has a number of psionic powers, but can only be activated when I feel it nessissary. In otherwords, players who are in my group don't know they are latent psionics, because I've told them to roll up "ordinary humans" and I decide when the powers manifest, and they are non-the-wiser.

Autistic Savants are probably the only class I didn't completly butcher.

In fact, the only thing I use from BTS are the core rules ie: Combat rules and skill and careers.

[dark brandon]

So in other words you took the setting and the mechanics and built a home-brew system around it?

I don't think I even took the setting. Pretty much just the base mechanics. There is no "lazlo society" or anything of that nature in my home brewed game.

[demos606]

Well, we've gotten answers ranging from "the system works fine exactly the way it is presented in the books and every player should be allowed to play a super-powered OCC" to "the system doesn't work for horror at all and house rules are what works for me". I guess it's official that "game balance" depends entirely on your point of view.

da Nerdbane

Thing is, BtS2 really doesn't have any super-powered OCC/PCC. The closest is probably the nega-griefer but even they're extremely mortal when faced with baddies of any variety. 90% or so of the skills are knowledge based and have little to no direct combat application beyond knowing what ammo to load in the shotguns.

[dark brandon]

So in other words you took the setting and the mechanics and built a home-brew system around it?

I don't think I even took the setting. Pretty much just the base mechanics. There is no "lazlo society" or anything of that nature in my home brewed game.

Ok. So your not even really playing BTS as most of us understand it. So how does this address the OP's question?

Obviously if I'm not playing by the standard setting, I must not think the balance that is presented in that setting is truely "balanced", and I went on to explain why and what steps I have choosen to make it more "balanced" in an effort to share my experience with th OP.

[dark brandon]

So I really don’t see how you can say that the classes are overpowered at all. Could you cite some specific examples for me?

Certainly. Mediums for example are pretty much immune completely to polterguists and haunting entities, are able to strike and see ghosts and the ability to detect supernatural.

Healers for example, make injuries much less threatening, with healing touch increased healing or psionic surgery.

Naturals can have supernatural strenght.

Now, none of these seem overly-spectacular, especially if one games in rifts. Why do I think they are overpowered?

Compare any one of these to the Ordinary human, and suddenly these OCC"s are pretty spectacular. Especially in the face of supernatural monsters. The balance for the game I like is that if one plays a psionic, they are not much more than humans with a few special abilities.

In the ordinary human OCC, he mentions that one reason people may like ordinary human OCC is because it reflects the real world and possibly ourselves in it. He's right, partially. That's what makes horror...horror. Is the fact that you don't have super-human strenght to fight off the monster, or laser fire coming out of your eyes...

With all these OCC's and their power (above normal human that is) it ceases to be a horror game and simply a power trip. Now, this is just personal preference, but I will relate, I've never been scared of a movie where the protagonists had extraoridnary powers especially if the setting is existing in a "real world" type senario, it simply goes from being a horror to an action/thriller. Most movies I concider the "scariest" movies are just ordinary humans and if anything is special about them it's usually something that doesn't help them or (more importantly) something they don't understand nor have any concious control over.

[dark brandon]

Mediums are specifically designed to be able to detect the supernatural. It is one of their main functions. As for being nearly immune to poltergeists and haunting entities, so what? Those are two out of hundreds of threats and just because they are immune from direct attack doesn’t mean they can’t be affected by them. Same thing goes for the ability to see and strike ghosts. Any well-played ghost can easily take on and defeat a medium, or even a medium and several friends.



Healers run out of ISP rather quickly once the threat has disappeared which is usually when you have time for healing. They can be rendered unconscious as well. Also, most times, they are not very effective in investigation and confrontation of the supernatural. So while they may be able to patch up the group after the danger has passed that is, for the most part, all they can do.



So naturals can have supernatural strength can they? That’s no big deal at all. Creatures that are only affected by magic, psionics or silver won’t be bothered by that. Neither will even a human foe with a firearm. In fact the only time that really comes into play is in close combat and why take away the one thing that might allow them to handle themselves in that situation?

Your missing the point of what I was saying. Mediums are immune to certain entities...so what? Healers run out of ISP and Naturals can throw cars. So what? The point is compare them to a normal human. That's the "so what". In comparison to a normal human these easily can become super-human. A healer can be just as good at investigating as any human can be. They don't have to be just the party medics because they could easily have an OCC that allows them fairly decent investigation skills. Same with the natural and medium. None of them are limited in any way than the normal human. A natural with SN strenght can do more than just punch things, just as a healer can do more than just heal.

Now onto what makes a horror game horror. It is NOT the power levels of the PCs unless it is the fact that the ordinary people see the people with powers dropping like flies. Horror comes mainly from two things; first is the knowledge that you can’t win against the darkness, that at best you can fight a holding action but that your foes are always more numerous than you and will eventually overwhelm you. Nothing you do will make a difference in the long term but you do it anyway because to so otherwise would be unthinkable. This is the sort of horror that comes out best in long running games because it is something that builds gradually. The second is atmosphere and it is what really differentiates between action/thriller and horror in many games. The same scenario can be run by the same GM, with the same players, playing the same characters and be totally different just because of the atmosphere created by the GM. Atmosphere is everything in horror. The GM has to be able to create that creepy feeling in his players by being sure to describe the setting not only fully but correctly. It’s the flicker of movement at the corner of the PC’s eyes as they are moving along a dark street that always turns out to be the branches of a tree or a swinging gate, but are they moving against the wind? It’s passing an alley and hearing a trashcan go over. Is it just a cat they startled or is it the thing they are tracking tracking them? It’s the slow description of a scene that includes all five senses and moves along at a measured pace, making the players anxious to hear what comes next. It’s the swift attack from the dark by a creature that remains hidden. It doesn’t jump out at the party but hides on an overhanging roof, takes a swipe at the rear member of the party and then re-conceals itself before the party can react. It’s the uncertainty, what is hidden.

I agree with both of your reasons, but they don't address the problem I have with BTS power level. Some of my favorite horrors are the grudge, Dawn of the dead, the birds, the original freddy and jason movies. In all these movies, none of the main protagonists had any kind of power, they were simply normal humans. In these movies you had only your wits. ONLY.

Lets try it like this. Name me some good horror movies in which the main character was "more than human".

[Steve Dubya]

Lets try it like this. Name me some good horror movies in which the main character was "more than human".

The Dead Zone?
American Werewolf in London?
Scanners?
The Shining?
The Fly?

On a different note, I tend to agree with dark brandon inasmuch that BtS should have lower powered characters than you might expect to see in a Palladium game.
For example, in pretty much each of the examples above, (with the exception of AWiL and The Fly - and that is obviously because the main character is the REASON for the whole horrific aspect of the film) the main character's powers are pretty minimal compared to the normal folk - it helps, sure, but not a lot more than a sawed-off would.

[dark brandon]

dark brandon,

I think the problem here is you think BTS should always be “victim” horror. I disagree. In fact I think that horror where the “victims” have the ability to fight back has an even greater potential than if they couldn’t. After all, Joe Average, when confronted by the supernatural, knows deep down that he can’t win. Joe the Ghost Hunter “knows” he can win. So much more horrifying then when the realization that he CAN’T win strikes. I am not saying that “victim” horror doesn’t have its place. It’s just that BTS is not supposed to be a “victim” horror game. That is the province of such games as COC.

I think your just not seeing it as I. I never said they couldn't fight back, now did I? I never stated that they should not be able to win. Quite the opposite, if a game is "hopeless" I probably don't want to play it. Horror /= failure.

Why does joe average have to know he can't win? Why can't he win? Because he's human? Or that just because he's a human with one psionic power he's now a victim? No. I never said he couldn't have knowledges or insight that supernatural couldn't exist or that he couldn't win.

The BtS setting is about people who know the Supernatural is real. They can and will do something about it or die trying. The horror comes from the situation, the obstacle, and the fear of failure. "What if I don't make it on time and Elizabeth is sacrificed?" "What if I die here and there's no one to protect the town?" "What the hell is that noise? What brushed past my foot?!"

If you want hopelessness and guarunteed failure, yeah go play CoC.

Incorrect. BTS is a setting about a few people who know the supernatural is real. Not everyone. All that you stated afterwords is simply a horror game that can pertain to any situation. Who would have a more terrifying time in your outlined situations? A fire-walker, diviner, ghost hunter and healer or 4 regular humans?

You also seem to think that just because it's regular humans with a slight advancment of power means "hopeless" or "victim".

[dark brandon]

On a different note, I tend to agree with dark brandon inasmuch that BtS should have lower powered characters than you might expect to see in a Palladium game.
For example, in pretty much each of the examples above, (with the exception of AWiL and The Fly - and that is obviously because the main character is the REASON for the whole horrific aspect of the film) the main character's powers are pretty minimal compared to the normal folk - it helps, sure, but not a lot more than a sawed-off would.

Exactly.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Overpowered characters?

What?

A lone Boogeyman can easily take on three low-leveled psychics with ease, and that's a peon creature. A lesser Demon (or worse a greater one) will mop the floor with them.

The game is what you make it, and can be used for all sorts of horror style adventures without going coo-coo house with the system.

~ Josh

[dark brandon]

Overpowered characters?

What?

A lone Boogeyman can easily take on three low-leveled psychics with ease, and that's a peon creature. A lesser Demon (or worse a greater one) will mop the floor with them.

The game is what you make it, and can be used for all sorts of horror style adventures without going coo-coo house with the system.

~ Josh

I've already addressed this, a couple of times at least.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Overpowered characters?

What?

A lone Boogeyman can easily take on three low-leveled psychics with ease, and that's a peon creature. A lesser Demon (or worse a greater one) will mop the floor with them.

The game is what you make it, and can be used for all sorts of horror style adventures without going coo-coo house with the system.

~ Josh

I've already addressed this, a couple of times at least.

And your point being?

I happen to disagree wholeheartedly with much of what you have said.

An encounter with a supernatural being can be just as frightening and difficult for a normal person, as it can to any psychic (excluding the Nega-Psychic and possibly Ghosthunter).

If this is not true for you, than that is because that is the way that you are running the game, and not the fault of the system.

The system is what you make it. Whether it is detective-style horror, suspense, or monster-stomping. All three can be played using BTS-2 without modification.

~ Josh

[dark brandon]

And your point being?

As I said, I've already addressed everything you've mentioned. I don't mind you don't agree with me, but i'm not gonna explain again what i've already explained a couple of times. Perhaps you weren't looking for a response, but it seemed like it when you made comments like "Overpowered characters? What?" as if wanting an explination.

I only partially agree that the game is what you make it. There are things a game creator can do to make the game easier for GMs (or in this case made it harder than it should/could have been).

[Chuck Lang]

Well, as I've stated in other threads, I'm one for limiting the C.C.s players choose. The only rule that the GM should stick to in limiting C.C.s is that he or she lets the players know what the "theme" of the campaign is and that certain C.C.s will be restricted in order to maintain that theme.

Even better, the players and GM should get together and agree on a theme or what type of campaign they'd like to play. If everyone wants to play a specific horror genre/theme there'll be a greater likelihood of success and fun in the campaign.

And in another of my successful Rifts campaigns I wrote paragraphs for three different campaigns I'd be willing to run. In those paragraphs I had C.C.s that would be used in the campaign. The players then chose from one of the three campaigns. I also gave them the option to add in their own campaign if they desired. It ended up that they chose one of my original three to great success and fun.

Horror is a broad genre with many incarnations. Pick an incarnation with your players and go with it.