An age old debate...finally laid to rest?
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:18 pm
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No, no truth.macksting wrote:I've heard rumor that the extent to which an individual sword was valued, and the extent to which Japanese traditional combat forgoes armor, was due to the same lack of natural resources which led to expansion into the Pacific in and prior to WWII.
Would this, perhaps, be true?
Not exactly true, as the European smiths had to use the welding process to overcome the impurities in their ore (typically bog iron), where as the problem with iron ore in Japan is the high phosphorous content, which makes brittle steel. There was no lack of iron ore in Japan, it was just more expensive to make good quality steel.Jefffar wrote:I wouldn't exactly call them rumours.
There was, hisotrically, a lack of quality iron available in Japan. This is in part what makes the sword smiths of Japan seem so magical, they were able to, through their folding process, create blades that overcame the lack of good quality iron. In europe, with lots of good iron around, any blacksmith could make decent quality swords.
No. The reason for light armor was due to the switch from cavalry combat to foot warfare. And you can throw that nonsense about making armor sufficient to keep out a sword right out the window. The Japanese used everything up to and including plate armor, not too mention specializing in styls that were arrow-proofed, spear-proofed, or shot-proofed (ironically, you can't effectively do these in the same armor, so something proofed against one type of weapon is less effective against other types of weapons).As for the lack of armour, I'm not sure wit was so much a lack of material, but a recognization that any armour sufficient to keep out a sword was going to be so heavy, expensive and cumbersome as to be effectively useless to fighers who relied on speed and skill to the extend the Japanese tended to. As a result armour was built to provide "enough" protection, with a focus on retaining mobility.
Sorry, but the Katana developed during the Sengoku Jidai as a result of the switch from mounted combat to foot combat. Not exactly a "gentleman's weapon."heretic888 wrote:Personally, I found the videos amusing in pretty much every way.
As with most of these comparisons, they compare a "samurai" from the peaceful Edo Jidai with no armor and a "gentleman's weapon" (the katana) against a "knight" in full-plate armor with a shield. Delightful.
A) Because they switched to Do-Maru armor, and B) The Yari was more common than the Daikyu.Why is it that none of these samurai in such comparisons are ever sporting full yoroi armor and wielding what was by far the most common weapon on feudal Japanese battlefields, the dai-kyu??
Then why are you talking about bows? If that was the case, why not throw English Longbowman up against Samurai Archers? Why aren't we seeing mounted knights with lances vs mounted samurai with bow and spear? Because people want to compare the sword & armor conflict.When things did get down to melee, spears and polearms were the Japanese weapon of choice, not swords.
Yeah, like the Shimabara no Ran, gotta love that war with the Christians.In fact, the whole adulation of the katana really didn't take place until the Edo Jidai, when the samurai stopped doing silly little things like fighting in wars.
Not quite true, but close enough.At that point, it had become moreso a symbol of status than anything else.
My thoughts exactly.Geez.
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Not exactly true, as the European smiths had to use the welding process to overcome the impurities in their ore (typically bog iron), where as the problem with iron ore in Japan is the high phosphorous content, which makes brittle steel. There was no lack of iron ore in Japan, it was just more expensive to make good quality steel.Jefffar wrote:I wouldn't exactly call them rumours.
There was, hisotrically, a lack of quality iron available in Japan. This is in part what makes the sword smiths of Japan seem so magical, they were able to, through their folding process, create blades that overcame the lack of good quality iron. In europe, with lots of good iron around, any blacksmith could make decent quality swords.
Jefffar wrote:Mr Nexx, the events you are talking about occured (to my understanding) centuries prior to the development of the Katana. Let's not compare a brown bess to an M-16 here.
Incidently, the Romans favoured short swords for use in their densly packed formations. The short sword could be thrust aroudn the edges of the sheld without interfering with the shied or the shield of the man beside you. This allowed Roman formations to be siginfigantly denser than their Celtic and German adversaries who had to swing their long swords around. The ability to put more men into the important section of the battle is very much a contributer to the roman dommination of Classical Europe.
Jefffar wrote:I was always of the impression that living in a mountanous country with few wide flat areas was a major reason the Roman cavalry didn't do so well.
Besides, in the classical period, the weapon of the calvary was the spear or bow. The celts and germans faught on foot. What german warriors were mounted would typically leap from their horses into the enemy formation. Some celts used chariots, but again the weapons of the charioteers were spear and bow.
Counterpoint: The commonly held misconception of Japanese warfare has the majority of armor as leather and wood. The majority of of Japanese armor is leather and metal, in fact "wood" armor doesn't historically exist in Japan at all.TheWarriorPoet wrote:As a student of Western Martial Arts; I feel I must advocate for a certain point.
The commonly held concept of the western styles of swordsmanship as clonky thwacking when set against the japanese disciplines is utter hogwash. To pit them against one another is truly odd . . . as the Japanese katana was a cutting weapon in a society where the majority of armor was leather and wood.
Actually, one of the major problems I've seen in Western (and Middle Eastern, and African, and North American, and South American) styles, in addition to the lack of preservation, is the lack of formalized structure (particularly for styles outside of Europe). When it comes to reconstructing these styles today, we're left with this as a major problem in deciding just exactly what they did back in the day.The purpose of both chain and plate are to deflect cutting attacks. It is for this reason why the longsword was replaced largely as a sidearm by maces andd hammers as the battlefield weapon towards the end of the middle ages.
In addition to this; Western styles were dynamic; graceful, and damned deadly when mastered. There were hundreds of different schools of thought on the matter; though they've seen far less preservation then the eastern schools.
True to a degree, but you're forgetting the corollary, a superior style will whip a lousy style, all other things being equal. Does this mean that Asian, particularly Japanese styles, are inherently superior to western styles? Certainly not, but race/location issues asside, a style that just can't cut it as well as another style isn't going to be around long.In the end; it is neither the sword; nor the style that wins the battle. But the swordsman. A lousy samurai would get his arse whipped by a good knight; and vise versa. skill has more to do with any of it then superiority of style.
Personally, I dumped the entire concept of "living samurai sword" in my games entirely. There are many reasons for it, but in short, there's no reason for the "living samurai swords" in the first place.And yes; I allow english knights to have minor rune weapons similer to the living samurai sword.
Personally, I dumped the entire concept of "living samurai sword" in my games entirely. There are many reasons for it, but in short, there's no reason for the "living samurai swords" in the first place.
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Personally, I dumped the entire concept of "living samurai sword" in my games entirely. There are many reasons for it, but in short, there's no reason for the "living samurai swords" in the first place.
Jefffar wrote:As sharp as a katana was, I don't think a slice attack would be the best choice. Most of what I have seen of the Katana seems to focus on chopping manouvres.
It's your time to waste.Jefffar wrote:Any of the experts who posted in the last 2 weeks since I made the disputed statement who didn't call me on it before have anything to say?
Jefffar wrote:Any of the experts who posted in the last 2 weeks since I made the disputed statement who didn't call me on it before have anything to say?
greese, you seem to think that I mean a chopping attack is clumsy large attack that attempts to drive through a limb or decapitate the opponent. It need not be. A chop is a hit nearly perpendicular to the cutting surface in an attmept to drive deeper into th opponent than merely drawing the bade along the surface would be. A chop would often be followed up by a slicing action to extend the wond as the blade was slid lengthwise out. This is the form of attack I see th Katana making at its most deadly.
I wanst refering to movie fighting with the Katana (since all Katana movies I've seen have been western and use the sameset of moves I see in longsword fight scenes I allready discounted them). I was reffering to historical texts describing the test of a high quality katana involving cutting through entire human bodies (often condemned criminals). The most comon demonstrations of Katanas these days involve rolled bamboo matting being attacked in a chop-then slice manouvre.
I was also refring to the fact that, except in a totally unarmoured opponent, a slice attack isn't a combat ender. It may set up a finishing move but it generlly lacks the capability to put a foe down permenantly unles you can specifically target some very small vulnerable points. A chop, penerating deaper into the body, followed by the slicing action of sliding the blade through the wound, is a much more devastating strike.
Saitou Hajime wrote:It would appear that you have ended nothing. I will of course state now that a katana is clearly a superior artistic fighting weapon. As I was fond of telling the fencers I knew in university. "You take A real verstion of you fencing weapon and I shall take a katana, we see who give up first." Now that being said that is not a Broad Sword, which is a comparable weapon. Personally I not convinced on artistic control on a broad sword.
Actually they were generally fought on plains, mountain basins, valleys, some sea and coastal battles, and along or across rivers.darkmax wrote:macksting wrote:Where were battles most often fought? Did the terrain vary greatly, or were strategic locations more often of conducive landscape? Or of very challenging landscape?
Generally Japanese civil battles were fought in forested areas.
darkmax wrote:Japanese blades if masterfully tempered, will be able to cut through a certain amount of steel! This is proven.
Rockwolf66 wrote:darkmax wrote:Japanese blades if masterfully tempered, will be able to cut through a certain amount of steel! This is proven.
May we have a source for this, please. the only video I personally know of that features a Japanese Katana cutting through metal is old WWII propaganda films. the kicker is that when the "Neo-Samurai" warrior slashes through a machingun barrel like its bamboo, the machingun barrel was made out of bamboo. Please give such information as if it is a cutting type attack or a thrust and the type/thickness of the steel.
I am not saying that a Japanese style blade will not go through metal as I own a Cold Steel Kobun and it can be Icepicked through a car door without breaking the tip.
I've never really thought about, because the answer is much more complex than it would seem at first glance. I can state that an average "historical" katana can range in price anywhere from $3000 to $20,000, and I've seen reports of several that sold in the millions range, but between fraud, auctions, and technical differences, you'd be hard pressed to find out, and additionally, the price a katana gets on the market may not reflect its actual value.darkmax wrote:Does anyone know what is the most expensive Katana ever sold?
greese1 wrote:It is owning a part of history.
MrNexx wrote:greese1 wrote:It is owning a part of history.
So is buying old cheese.
Jefffar wrote:MrNexx wrote:greese1 wrote:It is owning a part of history.
So is buying old cheese.
But katanas usually smell better
Spectre wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup
They made it insanely easier to control horses
darkmax wrote:The Mongols and the Xiongnu (Huns) did very well with their archers and fightings on horsebacks without the stirrups for centuries before it was invented in China.....
Somewhat interesting, I recall not being quite impressed with the lack of detail in some of the research of these supposed experts, and their insistance on equating katana to the "samurai sword" was overly simplistic. Though I found their overall conclusions fairly solid otherwise (in general, they agree that there are many factors which would affect the outcome of the samurai vs knight or samurai vs western swordfighter conflict).Jefffar wrote:I've been prowling through the essays linked to about medieval and reinassance swords and fighting. Very intersting stuff. The Kataa vs Rapier discussion was a particular favourite.
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Somewhat interesting, I recall not being quite impressed with the lack of detail in some of the research of these supposed experts, and their insistance on equating katana to the "samurai sword" was overly simplistic. Though I found their overall conclusions fairly solid otherwise (in general, they agree that there are many factors which would affect the outcome of the samurai vs knight or samurai vs western swordfighter conflict).
Yeah, pretty much no to all of that.darkmax wrote:Samurai tends to use Naginata, Bo and other polearms as well before resorting to their Katana. Breaking a katana is no small matter, especially a family heirloom. It means the samurai will kill himself on the spot for breaking the sword.
Not true, you're forgetting that many mounted warriors used the bow before resorting to close up weapons.Alejandro wrote:Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Yeah, pretty much no to all of that.darkmax wrote:Samurai tends to use Naginata, Bo and other polearms as well before resorting to their Katana. Breaking a katana is no small matter, especially a family heirloom. It means the samurai will kill himself on the spot for breaking the sword.
Actually, all mounted warriors in history used polearms before resorting to their close up weapons. To do otherwise was suicide. Once the samurai was on his feet, he'd still use the weapon with the longest reach (terrain allowing) before resorting to the sword.
That is true, at least up until the Tokugawa era.No clue on the suicide from a broken sword part, but samurai definitely did not use the sword as his primary weapon.
Then you should do some real research.darkmax wrote:Kuseru Satsujin wrote:Yeah, pretty much no to all of that.darkmax wrote:Samurai tends to use Naginata, Bo and other polearms as well before resorting to their Katana. Breaking a katana is no small matter, especially a family heirloom. It means the samurai will kill himself on the spot for breaking the sword.
I'm sure I'm quite right.
Nope.Jefffar wrote:I don't think that a samurai was obligaed t kill himself if he broke his sword.
It would be a problem, in one sense, being ascribed to giri, but something that can be dealt with, not all that major, especially compared to something like damaging a gift from one's liege.But a specific family heirloom being broken would be a major stain on his honour which some Samurai might choose not to bear.
No, he wouldn't.darkmax wrote:Jefffar wrote:I don't think that a samurai was obligaed t kill himself if he broke his sword.
But a specific family heirloom being broken would be a major stain on his honour which some Samurai might choose not to bear.
He would have to, to make up for tarnishing his family honor, in this case breaking his family heirloom.
Actually, it was especially stringent in the Tokugawa era, post "medieval times."Here's a little something that you might have heard, in far eastern societies, namely China, Japan and Korea, family honors comes well before the needs of the individuals. This is especially stringent in Japan during the "medieval" times.
Not true either, the vast majority of samurai didn't have family heirlooms of quality. And giri to one's lord rates higher than giri to one's family.The family's heirloom is only passed to the next family head, usually the best samurai. A weapon given by his Daimyo is also classified as such.
If you're referring to seppuku, you're way off base. Seppuku was committed for a number of reasons, and breaking one's sword is not one of them. Getting captured or surrounded by the enemy, dealing with a conflicting duty, remonstrating one's lord, and as a death sentence to atone for a crime were the reasons for committing seppuku, not breaking a sword.Damaging the sword is bad, but death is not required. Breaking a sword is like dishonoring all his family's ancestors, which will require him to die (can't remember the name of the ritual).
Other way around.In truth, the Japanese society, the samurai can die for lesser reason than breaking of his sword. One example would be to protest his lord's decision on some event he felt unjustified about.
ROFLMAO. You just lost all credibility.darkmax wrote:I'm quite sure I'm correct. I can't give you references because I have known these for years, way before the internet boom.