Forums of the Megaverse®

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 72,00.html

Nice article. Graph link at bottom gives a nice timeline.
How long would the things of man last.

It fails to mention that geological activities, including widespread alterations to specific locales due to enormous mining endeavors (missing seams of ore, etc.), and the very wide-spread depletion of oil and natural gas deposits, would remain as evidence for much longer than 200,000 years.

RainOfSteel wrote:It fails to mention that geological activities, including widespread alterations to specific locales due to enormous mining endeavors (missing seams of ore, etc.), and the very wide-spread depletion of oil and natural gas deposits, would remain as evidence for much longer than 200,000 years.

Really good point.

~ Josh

Yes, but if the planet were to be found after the extention of humanity by some interplanetary alien explorers it could reasonably be believed the planet was used for its resources by another alien race some time in the recent past. Manmade objects would be functionally nonexistant inside 200000 years, though some might be recoverable thru archaeologic explorations if they were encased in ways that protected them from natural decay - instantly frozen in a block of ice or encased in resin of some kind possibly.

I wonder how long satellites in very high orbit (30k+ miles) would remain there?

How long will the flags, mirrors, experimental equipment, Eagle module bases, and footprints remain on the moon?

What about the landers on Mars and in orbit of it?

I suppose a complete pattern of meteorite impacts may wipe out the Lunar and Martian evidence, but I bet that'll take longer than 200k years to complete.

demos606 wrote:Yes, but if the planet were to be found after the extention of humanity by some interplanetary alien explorers it could reasonably be believed the planet was used for its resources by another alien race some time in the recent past. Manmade objects would be functionally nonexistant inside 200000 years, though some might be recoverable thru archaeologic explorations if they were encased in ways that protected them from natural decay - instantly frozen in a block of ice or encased in resin of some kind possibly.

Except that it is possible to tell how a mine was mined out, and how advanced the tools were/might have been.

The idea that a civilization that mastered space flight would carve out a mine using tools like those from the B.C.E. period is wonky.

~ Josh

yeah but the sun will increase in size long before that and burn earth to a black ball before that

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah but the sun will increase in size long before that and burn earth to a black ball before that

Umm, we got about 3 billion years of credit left on our light bill...

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

demos606 wrote:Yes, but if the planet were to be found after the extention of humanity by some interplanetary alien explorers it could reasonably be believed the planet was used for its resources by another alien race some time in the recent past. Manmade objects would be functionally nonexistant inside 200000 years, though some might be recoverable thru archaeologic explorations if they were encased in ways that protected them from natural decay - instantly frozen in a block of ice or encased in resin of some kind possibly.

Except that it is possible to tell how a mine was mined out, and how advanced the tools were/might have been.

The idea that a civilization that mastered space flight would carve out a mine using tools like those from the B.C.E. period is wonky.

~ Josh

This is all assuming that the Earth has not been struck by a meteor that would destroy all life on the planet as we know it i.e. The one that started the extinction of the dinosaurs.

A meteor large enough would create earthquakes and tsunamis large enough to collapse most of the mines on earth. Then consider the change in the earth's teutonic plates over 200k. And the decay of the supports in the mines causing them to collapse also.

I truly believe that whomever visits Earth 200k from now will know as much about us and our habits as we do the Neanderthals. Intellectual speculation is all it will be. For time will have ground us and our passing down to a mere afterthought and quaint dinner conversation for alien archeologists.

Chuck

Nxla666 wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah but the sun will increase in size long before that and burn earth to a black ball before that

Umm, we got about 3 billion years of credit left on our light bill...

so you say

Chuck McDaniel wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

demos606 wrote:Yes, but if the planet were to be found after the extention of humanity by some interplanetary alien explorers it could reasonably be believed the planet was used for its resources by another alien race some time in the recent past. Manmade objects would be functionally nonexistant inside 200000 years, though some might be recoverable thru archaeologic explorations if they were encased in ways that protected them from natural decay - instantly frozen in a block of ice or encased in resin of some kind possibly.

Except that it is possible to tell how a mine was mined out, and how advanced the tools were/might have been.

The idea that a civilization that mastered space flight would carve out a mine using tools like those from the B.C.E. period is wonky.

~ Josh

This is all assuming that the Earth has not been struck by a meteor that would destroy all life on the planet as we know it i.e. The one that started the extinction of the dinosaurs.

A meteor large enough would create earthquakes and tsunamis large enough to collapse most of the mines on earth. Then consider the change in the earth's teutonic plates over 200k. And the decay of the supports in the mines causing them to collapse also.

I truly believe that whomever visits Earth 200k from now will know as much about us and our habits as we do the Neanderthals. Intellectual speculation is all it will be. For time will have ground us and our passing down to a mere afterthought and quaint dinner conversation for alien archeologists.

Chuck

Which means they'll think that we were complete primitives, little more than apes, and equate everything within our theoretical society to religion?



Half-joking aside: Good point.

~ Josh

darkmax wrote:some how I think the comparison should be more our current level of understanding of the reptilian mammals....

But even with a meteor strike, some data would remain in ancient computers and disks.

So what records do you think are sitting in temples and other places in your region of the world that no one known that they are data storages mediums? Also what might be these places that us Westerns have never heard of? Please tell.

Computers and their disks do not last 200,000 years.

But with the whole Ice Age thing, we're actually in one right now. Ice ages historically have a peak at the beginning, a cool gap in the middle, and a peak at the end before returning to warmth. What we generally call the last Ice Age (12 thousand years ago or so) is thought to have been the opening peak. What we call civilization has existed pretty much exclusively in the "cool gap" where we're significantly colder than non-ice-age periods, but way warmer than the peaks.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Chuck, that's tectonic, not teutonic.

Very interesting article though. I like it.

Oh, I dont know, when the Germans marched they changed the world.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Chuck, that's tectonic, not teutonic.

Very interesting article though. I like it.

Tectonic effects aren't too likely to be too significant over 200 kiloyears, anyway. The continental plates will have moved perhaps 10 kilometers in that time.

I imagine a lot of evidence of our existance would remain. Our trash-heaps are massive and extensive and great at preserving things we don't want. Mines in stable rock formations would probably also remain, depending on whether or not glaciation occurs in their area. Some of our radioactive waste will be around a lot longer.

Most of our high-tech artifacts won't survive, however. There are projects going on to preserve knowledge on involatile media, in the case that the unthinkable happens, things like text engraved on unreactive metal sheets and the like.

Our space probes, like the Voyager and Pioneer spacecraft, will still be around. So will all the junk up in high orbit, more than likely. We'll lose some of it due to perturbations from the Moon and such, but there's an awful lot of stuff up there.

darkmax wrote:

abtex wrote:So what records do you think are sitting in temples and other places in your region of the world that no one known that they are data storages mediums? Also what might be these places that us Westerns have never heard of? Please tell.

What do you mean? Pray explain.

darkmax wrote:...some data would remain in ancient computers and disks.

from time to time things are found in jungles or when building a new building around the world. Has anything that might be a storage device of knowledge been discovered in or around your country that may not be hear of in the West? Stone tables Gem incrested articles. Scolls sealed in sealed tubes.

I personally don't see any evidence existing in 200,000 that would tell all about us. I think people are taking the importance of our race too seriously.
We are just another species inhabiting this planet and after we no longer exist the majority of evidence pointing to our time on earth will disappear.

Especially when the German Dinnerware comes to inhabit the Earth. In fact the Teutonic Plates along with the tea cups and bowls will probably be our undoing. Then they will destroy all signs of our passing. I have glimpsed this in the future by scrying in a China Plate.

But seriously nothing would last for that long too explain us in a full archeological understanding. Remember nothing last forever. Computer disks corrupt over time, metal rusts and falls apart, and diodes do whatever diodes do when they get really old.

The only thing I can think of that would preserve evidence that long would be Michael Jackson's pure air sleeping chamber .

But now the REAL brain-bender:

Was there intelligent life on earth once before?

What if there was a civilization of intelligent beings evolved from dinosaurs?

Would any trace remain today, millions of years later?

I firmly believe there was a civilized race here long before humanity, in addition there is evidence arround the world that there was significant construction during the last ice age when sea levels were much lower than they are now. THey are in the form of stone obolisks, roads etc which are now below sea level. It is interesting to think that the Old Ones (not the PFRP kind) may have come to earth and taken the "advanced" civilizations long ago. There are images of what appear to be planes or spacecraft left behind in some mian temples and other cool little teasers all over the world. It is a really cool idea, and for my opinion on the subject, the only thing that will be found in 200 000 years will be bits of industrial plastics and some glues. Thats it. We will either be extinct or long left this planet because it wont be habitable at some point in human history.

Greyaxe wrote:I firmly believe there was a civilized race here long before humanity [...]

It depends on what you mean by civilized.

There are hypotheses that Crete was once host to an advanced civilization, socially speaking.

However, if you mean a civilization that was technologically advanced with a significant industrial infrastructure, there isn't much chance.

A great deal of the advance of mankind has been based upon the exploitation of mineral deposits, both metals and organic liquids.

This began with man exploiting most of the easily retrieved deposits around the world.

These easy-to-exploit deposits are, for the most part, gone.*

The early industrial revolution depended upon the exploitation of moderately difficult to extra deposits, and most of these are now gone, as well.*

*It's true, there are some left of each, and leftovers of already worked sites (now economically unexploitable, but not completely empty). However, what now remains would be completely insufficient to the task of duplicating the fueling of the early industrial revolution.

The late industrial revolution (20th Century) has depend on ever greater advances in technology to successfully exploit deposits that early centuries would have shaken their heads at and been unable to exploit.

These deposits are by no means gone, but they would be completely unusable to past ages.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the traces of this type and scale of mineral exploitation would be readily obvious to the geologists and miners of today. Blatantly obvious, in fact, and for more two hundred centuries, even including ongoing earthquakes, subsidence, etc.

If a geologist comes across an huge seam that goes on for a mile, where an entire layer of material is missing, that's going to be a giant, "Hello! This was already mined-out!"

I would conceded that even such traces (widespread mineral exploitation) would eventually disappear, but it would be far longer than it would take for all the other traces to disappear.

The "regeneration" time for minerals would be counted in tens of millions of years, and for organic liquids, probably thirty to a hundred million years, plenty of time for massive geological resurfacing and covering-up. (I'm thinking of the timescales necessary to subside large amounts of organic sediments below caps of impermeable rock layers and time to allow "cooking" across the eons.)

And yet, you say there are traces of roadways (etc.) left behind. Those roads would be long gone by now, or those past civilizations (no matter how socially and culturally advanced) never possessed any significant technology/industrial infrastructure.

You should watch the discovery channel

I've seen the show about the pyramids off of Japan. And the hexagonal hole is pretty strong evidence for my along with the ruins that are there in those waters. I agree that there could have been another civilization before us and our reign on earth. Plus there are stories from Ancient Hindu writings which describe nuclear explosions.

Ever see a decent meteor strike? They bear a striking resemblance to the effects of a nuclear bomb with much the same caliber of local devistation. Same can be said for Krakatoa(sp?) style volcanoes - monstrously destructive and much resemblant of a nuclear explosion in effect.

As for pyramids, I'd honestly be very very surprised if every early civilization didn't use them. They are without qualification the easiest large structures to build with little or no technology. The greatest evidence for a race other than humanity to have ever been on Earth is probably the stone faces at Easter Island, though even they were feasable with what we know boatcraft to have been at the time.

Granted, I have every reason to believe there is life on other planets, just none to believe they were (or secretly are) on Earth.

Lies! Your one of THEM arent you! Confess!!

demos606 wrote:Ever see a decent meteor strike? They bear a striking resemblance to the effects of a nuclear bomb with much the same caliber of local devistation. Same can be said for Krakatoa(sp?) style volcanoes - monstrously destructive and much resemblant of a nuclear explosion in effect.

But do meteor impacts change the sand into the glass only found at nuclear blast sites, like White Sands. No Volcanoes in locations with the glass sheets have been found. Maybe meteors, but maybe not.

abtex wrote:But do meteor impacts change the sand into the glass only found at nuclear blast sites, like White Sands. No Volcanoes in locations with the glass sheets have been found. Maybe meteors, but maybe not.

Yup, a bolide airburst will act just like a nuclear airburst, just minus the nasty gamma pulse and radioactive isotopes and all that. You'll still get a heat-pulse that glass the ground, and other nuclear-like effects. They're pretty certain that's what created the desert glass that was found in Tutankhamen's tomb, and other ancient Egyptian sites.

Fossile evidence would be another indicator of how advanced a civilization was.

How long does it take nuclear waist to degrade?

I've seen the hubble shots of ShueMaker nine impacting on Jupiter. I've read the stuff on it too.

dark brandon wrote:Fossile evidence would be another indicator of how advanced a civilization was.

How long does it take nuclear waist to degrade?

Various kinds have differening half-lives.

After 200,000 years, a lot of our nuclear waste (but not all) would be harmless. (I'm thinking the full breadth of the industry.)

If IIRC, there are some isotopes that have a very long half-life.

Plutonium-239 has a half-life of ~24,000 years.

Wewt for Thundarr the Barbarian.

This is scary 4.468 billion years — half-life of uranium-238 !!!!

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E17_s

And we have how much of this stuff as waste from Reactors and bomb plants?

That sounds right from what I remember about it.

So, I think it would be rather easy to tell the level of technology by this evidence...at least currently.

Okay, so Uranium-238's half-life is 4.468 billion years. This is what we do..................

We make everting out of it. I mean everything from cars to mattresses, guns to paperclips.

Then when the earth is explored by alien archaeologists 2,000 years after the demise of humans. All evidence of our existence will remain intact for them to study. They will then look at it and come to the conclusion that we were totally screwed in the head!!

And better than that our radioactive artifacts will be here to see the sun go supernova!!

Problem solved !

Aramanthus wrote:That sounds right from what I remember about it.

It might take that long for half of the mass of a particular colleciton of Uranium to disappear, but long before that it would have become an oxidized mass, become dispersed, be subducted, and so on.

Well, really, the only reason we have a nuclear waste problem is because people are terrified of breeder reactors. Pretty much everything we call 'waste' now is actually fuel to these things.

Qev wrote:Well, really, the only reason we have a nuclear waste problem is because people are terrified of breeder reactors. Pretty much everything we call 'waste' now is actually fuel to these things.

In the US nuclear power program, it isn't the high-level waste that is the big problem. It is the volume of the low-level waste, none of which is fuel for a breeder reactor.

There will be evidence of the dump I just took for way more than 200,000 years!!!

Randomfist wrote:There will be evidence of the dump I just took for way more than 200,000 years!!!

Randomfist wrote:There will be evidence of the dump I just took for way more than 200,000 years!!!

Does that mean that this discussion has just gone down the tube?