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His war against tolkeen was too straight forward and up: For the survival of human kind.That kinda makes him more unprincipal or unscruplous.Not really diabolical.
Emperor prosek needed a "hidden agenda" for attacking tolkeen.Something the general CS state population didn't know about.Like for example, maybe prosek wanted to find a magicaL ITEM that will grant him immortality.Or maybe there is something about tolkeen land that prosek wants?

dmart11 wrote:His war against tolkeen was too straight forward and up: For the survival of human kind.That kinda makes him more unprincipal or unscruplous.Not really diabolical.
Emperor prosek needed a "hidden agenda" for attacking tolkeen.Something the general CS state population didn't know about.Like for example, maybe prosek wanted to find a magicaL ITEM that will grant him immortality.Or maybe there is something about tolkeen land that prosek wants?

In what part did Tolkeen threated the Coalition or mankind? If the CS had not attacked then, there would be no war to begin off.

Prosek is diabolic. He knows that D-Bees are not the monsters the said they are. He knows that magic is a thing that mankind believed eons ago and that magic is a natural for of the universe. Yet he say the contrary to full fear and ignorance on his people.

I dont see how more diabolic he could be...

ok,that's true.BUt despite all of that, the war on tolkeen still seemed to have the ironclad and genuine mask of "human" defense and preservation, even to us readers.The S.O.T should of had a more sinister and selfish prosek motive.even if it was only to "scare" the neighbor kingdoms.

dmart11 wrote:ok,that's true.BUt despite all of that, the war on tolkeen still seemed to have the ironclad and genuine mask of "human" defense and preservation, even to us readers.The S.O.T should of had a more sinister and selfish prosek motive.even if it was only to "scare" the neighbor kingdoms.

Only if you agree with the CS.

They (CS) were not attacked so there was no room for "human defense and preservation".

As for a ulterior motivation on the part of emperor Prosek, he is so full of himself that more probably the motivation for that war was only mad pride and overconfidence.

Destruction of Tolkeen elimates a opponent in Prosek's quest for power.

Nightmaster wrote:

dmart11 wrote:ok,that's true.BUt despite all of that, the war on tolkeen still seemed to have the ironclad and genuine mask of "human" defense and preservation, even to us readers.The S.O.T should of had a more sinister and selfish prosek motive.even if it was only to "scare" the neighbor kingdoms.

Only if you agree with the CS.

They (CS) were not attacked so there was no room for "human defense and preservation".

As for a ulterior motivation on the part of emperor Prosek, he is so full of himself that more probably the motivation for that war was only mad pride and overconfidence.

so emperor prosek is insane perhaps?

dmart11 wrote:His war against tolkeen was too straight forward and up: For the survival of human kind.That kinda makes him more unprincipal or unscruplous.Not really diabolical.
Emperor prosek needed a "hidden agenda" for attacking tolkeen.Something the general CS state population didn't know about.Like for example, maybe prosek wanted to find a magicaL ITEM that will grant him immortality.Or maybe there is something about tolkeen land that prosek wants?

Hmmm, A Hitler-like predisposition for conquest and propaganda. I don't think he needs more for alignment purposes, but I do think he needs more for RPG purposes. Some nefarious agendas on Prosek's part would make an easier time for PC's to become a thorn in his side.

Magical Item? Perhaps. Or you could go the other route, Prosek has already built the CS based on stuff scavanged from Pre-rifts ruins. Who knows what sort of technological wonders he's heard about which could be buried under Tolkeen/Lazlo/etc....The labs where a Pre-rifts medical company was exploring immortality treatments....

Which gives PC's a great hook, since they can find it first and run afoul of the horrific failed experiments.

DamonS wrote:

dmart11 wrote:His war against tolkeen was too straight forward and up: For the survival of human kind.That kinda makes him more unprincipal or unscruplous.Not really diabolical.
Emperor prosek needed a "hidden agenda" for attacking tolkeen.Something the general CS state population didn't know about.Like for example, maybe prosek wanted to find a magicaL ITEM that will grant him immortality.Or maybe there is something about tolkeen land that prosek wants?

Hmmm, A Hitler-like predisposition for conquest and propaganda. I don't think he needs more for alignment purposes, but I do think he needs more for RPG purposes. Some nefarious agendas on Prosek's part would make an easier time for PC's to become a thorn in his side.

Magical Item? Perhaps. Or you could go the other route, Prosek has already built the CS based on stuff scavanged from Pre-rifts ruins. Who knows what sort of technological wonders he's heard about which could be buried under Tolkeen/Lazlo/etc....The labs where a Pre-rifts medical company was exploring immortality treatments....

Which gives PC's a great hook, since they can find it first and run afoul of the horrific failed experiments.

yea this is true,because emperor prosek, as he stands, can be twisted into either an ultimate evil or a savior for mankind.There is very little that locks him into the evil bracket.

Yeah the thing is, and I've found an astonishing ammount of players that think the oppisite, but.. In the game. *Leans close and whispers* People, even NPC's..... can LIE!

Sure he said "We do this for the safty of all man kind"

But he's the agressor in a war that could have gone 2 or 3 generations and not been "forced"

He was mearly nipping what could become a serious threat in the bud NOW... before it was an insurmountable threat LATER.

Granted Tolkeen is mainly a threat because the CS won't live and let live. So.... it's "tactically" Smart to take them out before they become too strong to do so, but it's not "Good"

Bad guys can be smart. Inspite of most proof to the contrary. Smart bad guys can even be loved.

The 'adverage' CS citizen belives all the lies that the governnment feeds them. It benifits them to do so. They don't look deeper when they're provided with the answers. (( This is addressed in some of the text in RUE among other places)) By willfully keeping the populace illiterate they only have access to the opinions given to them by the government. Nay sayers are shouted down (( and dissapear)) So the normal every day CS guy doesn't think he MIGHT be wrong. And has no evidence that he MAY be.

It's only when you get out of the super cities and out of the military patroled towns that the POSSIBILITY of the CS being wrong comes up.


And not for nothing.. but Tolkeen could have avoided the entire mess by moving. The military build up took ages. They knew it was coming, and in the books of the war it was pointed out dozens of times the entire war could have been avoided if Tolkeen had just moved. In the end they were just as bad as the CS (( and dug their own grave with some of the demonic deals and such they did))

Neither side was innocent in the end. Both were reflections of each other. Which was.... MOST of the entire POINT.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah the thing is, and I've found an astonishing ammount of players that think the oppisite, but.. In the game. *Leans close and whispers* People, even NPC's..... can LIE!

Sure he said "We do this for the safty of all man kind"

But he's the agressor in a war that could have gone 2 or 3 generations and not been "forced"

He was mearly nipping what could become a serious threat in the bud NOW... before it was an insurmountable threat LATER.

Granted Tolkeen is mainly a threat because the CS won't live and let live. So.... it's "tactically" Smart to take them out before they become too strong to do so, but it's not "Good"

Bad guys can be smart. Inspite of most proof to the contrary. Smart bad guys can even be loved.

The 'adverage' CS citizen belives all the lies that the governnment feeds them. It benifits them to do so. They don't look deeper when they're provided with the answers. (( This is addressed in some of the text in RUE among other places)) By willfully keeping the populace illiterate they only have access to the opinions given to them by the government. Nay sayers are shouted down (( and dissapear)) So the normal every day CS guy doesn't think he MIGHT be wrong. And has no evidence that he MAY be.

It's only when you get out of the super cities and out of the military patroled towns that the POSSIBILITY of the CS being wrong comes up.


And not for nothing.. but Tolkeen could have avoided the entire mess by moving. The military build up took ages. They knew it was coming, and in the books of the war it was pointed out dozens of times the entire war could have been avoided if Tolkeen had just moved. In the end they were just as bad as the CS (( and dug their own grave with some of the demonic deals and such they did))

Neither side was innocent in the end. Both were reflections of each other. Which was.... MOST of the entire POINT.

You make a good point,
but my arguement is that emperor prosek is portrayed as a tyrant and dictator.yet when you read about him, he is little more than a human supremist,which is a good for a us-bad for them type of situation.there is nothing however to indicate he is an evil, diabolical maniac.He doesn't have a hidden agenda, no secret society membership, no human on human genocide (except for the burbs).He's not "hurting" or betraying his people for his own gain. and part of being diabolical is "betrayal".... of ANYBODY.and as he is coalition and the burbians are not, he is not in a sense betraying them. as it stands,according to alignment he is a worse sentient being than lord spylnn.But how? he's not the ruler of a slave empire in league with all manors of evil.

He's bad because in Rifts earth the D-Bees arn't all evil. Many are innocent of any wrong doing. Even being here aginst their will with no aveneu to leave.

Because the D-Bees have the same 'inalienable' rights as sentient beings. Their erradication IS evil.

Yes.. in technical terms "The humans were here first" But the DBees on earth largely arn't their by choice. They landed via the rifts. With no way "out" they've survived as best they can. Killing them is akin to the US government killing the Native Americans, (( but.. kinda in reverse)) The DBee's are just trying to live. The CS is wiping them out like Rats or bugs.

In the Rifts game one of the prevailing (( underlying)) themes is "The Definition of Humanity"

WHat makes us HUMAN vs Homo Sapiens.

No D-Bees arn't Homo Sapiens, but can they be more human than many that are?

Lots of gray area.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:He's bad because in Rifts earth the D-Bees arn't all evil. Many are innocent of any wrong doing. Even being here aginst their will with no aveneu to leave.

Because the D-Bees have the same 'inalienable' rights as sentient beings. Their erradication IS evil.

Yes.. in technical terms "The humans were here first" But the DBees on earth largely arn't their by choice. They landed via the rifts. With no way "out" they've survived as best they can. Killing them is akin to the US government killing the Native Americans, (( but.. kinda in reverse)) The DBee's are just trying to live. The CS is wiping them out like Rats or bugs.

In the Rifts game one of the prevailing (( underlying)) themes is "The Definition of Humanity"

WHat makes us HUMAN vs Homo Sapiens.

No D-Bees arn't Homo Sapiens, but can they be more human than many that are?

Lots of gray area.

true , very true.
which is why I feel prosek should be upgraded to abberant or at least given a sinister hidden agenda.a small point to debate but a good time filler,no?

Eh. I think he's plenty evil because of the perversions he does to the truth and the masses he kills in cold blood knowing they pose no threat.

Abberent implys he's honorable, if twisted. He's not. He FAKES honor to maintain power. Behind it all he's evil.

It's a subtil shade of difference but motivation is included.

If he HONESTLY killed all the DBee's because he saw them as evil invaders, that'd be one thing.

He kills them because he sees them as a threat to his power.

Also don't forget for all his "HUMANS FIRST" He's killing magic using humans right along with the DBees... because they're a power he can't controll, and powers you can't controll can be used aginst you.

Not because magic is bad..... but Magic endangers HIS power.

Hince, evil bastard. *G*

Or going into the entire "Dog boy" thing.

dmart11 wrote:His war against tolkeen was too straight forward and up: For the survival of human kind.That kinda makes him more unprincipal or unscruplous.Not really diabolical.
Emperor prosek needed a "hidden agenda" for attacking tolkeen.Something the general CS state population didn't know about.Like for example, maybe prosek wanted to find a magicaL ITEM that will grant him immortality.Or maybe there is something about tolkeen land that prosek wants?

Eh? What, just one act that wasn't wholey selfishly evil elevates his alignment?

Don't be rediculous. Not everything an evil person does wholely revolves around furhtering evil for it's own sake. They sometimes do outright good things, and can even love.

Totally right. 99 out of 100 people we would concider "evil" don't wake up in the morning and go "Hurm. How can I go aginst sociatal norms and brandish the evil in my life today"

They do things they want to do that the majority of society doesn't agree with.

Many things are a matter of perception.

A woman kills a man. Is that act in and of itself evil?

What if she was trying to rob him? Evil?

What if she was defending her children from a Pediophile? Evil? No.... GOOD!

What if it was an accident. Evil?

With Pro, his motiviations are self serving, aginst our sociatal norms, and with the concious forthought of the wrongdoing he was doing. He's no fool. He's intelligent. He "knows" the difference between shooting somone with a knife to your son's neck and shooting somone that may some time in the future, find a knife, hunt you down, by pass all your security, invade your city, and cut your son's throat.
He chooses to kill the possibilities. The 'possible threats' To his power.

If it wern't DBees. I.E. if rifts earth happened, but with no DBees, it'd be soley aginst the magic users..

If rifts happened and no magic and no DBees... It'd be the Psychics.

No psychics? ... hurm. Probably fall back on the old stand by when you need something to kill. Religion.

The CS is a military state.
1) Because it gives the CS Direction and motivation towards a goal.
2) It lets them keep the aggressive subjects under control.
3) Puts them on war footing so that indistry and commerce grow. (( Wars are actually good for countrys... unless ya loose)) and
4) To keep their minds off... the guy behind the curtain.

The "Target" Of Karl's hatred could be anything. He's choosing innocent displaced beings from other planets and dimensions. Whom largely (( I'd say upper 90%)) Just want to live or at best "Go home"

Of all the DBees on earth, very few are trying to take over.

Now.... if he went after Atlantis or the Brodkill or something that might be different. But... he hasn't, yet.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The "Target" Of Karl's hatred could be anything. He's choosing innocent displaced beings from other planets and dimensions. Whom largely (( I'd say upper 90%)) Just want to live or at best "Go home"

Of all the DBees on earth, very few are trying to take over.

Now.... if he went after Atlantis or the Brodkill or something that might be different. But... he hasn't, yet.

what books are you looking at
tolkeen , lazlo and new lazlo were the only three friendly to both humans and non-humans.

You also have to remember that he is going to do things that strengthen, and secure the CS, because the CS is his power base. He did not destroy Tolkeen because it was what was best for the average person in the CS, he destroyed Tolkeen because it was a potenial threat to his ultimate goal of conquering all of North America. He is smart and chooses targets that benifit him, but can be passed off as for the good of the CS thru propaganda. If a target can't be passed off as benifiting the CS, he gives it time until he has enough "evidence" and has given enough speeches that the massess are begging him to take action. The problem with S.O.T. is that people are attributing justifications (such as defending humanity from depraved monsters and insane spellcasters) that Prosek knows are B.S.

Its kind of funny if you think about it. The books state over, and over again the Prosek (and by extension the CS; though not every member of the CS is evil) is evil. Yet every once in a while you see people on the boards that make an aurgument that he really isn't, in effect falling for the very propaganda that we (since we have access to all the behind the scences info) know to be lies.

the Coalition states may or may not be evil - there is some room for argument tere.

But Karl is definitely evil - why?

1) He preaches Genocide not becuase he beleives that th creatures from other worlds are threat to him or humanity, but because it gives the people of the Coalition States a focus for their attention rather than asking why a state with a million man army needs three million SAMASes.

2) He bans knowledge not because he feels this knowledge may be a danger to humanity, but because he beleives this knowledge will lead ti the people of th Coalition States questioning why the deender of humanity has attacked as many human dominated kingdoms as he has monster dominated kigdoms.

3) He keeps the vast majority of the human population of the Coalition states unprotected n shanty towns outside the fortess cities not because there is limited room in those fortress cities (if he can build 3 million SAMAS, there's probably the capability to expand the fortress cities) but because he wants a cheap and ready source of people who will fight and die for him so that they may be le into one of those fortress cities (or not be thrown out).

4) He has a race of sentient beings breed and raised as soldier-slaves for his empire (the Dog Boys).


In short, Prosek is evil because he lies to his subjects, forces them to live in squaler, squanders the lives of his subjects and engages in camapigns of hate and genocide just so that he can maintain his position of power.

Jefffar wrote:the Coalition states may or may not be evil - there is some room for argument tere.

But Karl is definitely evil - why?

1) He preaches Genocide not becuase he beleives that th creatures from other worlds are threat to him or humanity, but because it gives the people of the Coalition States a focus for their attention rather than asking why a state with a million man army needs three million SAMASes.

2) He bans knowledge not because he feels this knowledge may be a danger to humanity, but because he beleives this knowledge will lead ti the people of th Coalition States questioning why the deender of humanity has attacked as many human dominated kingdoms as he has monster dominated kigdoms.

3) He keeps the vast majority of the human population of the Coalition states unprotected n shanty towns outside the fortess cities not because there is limited room in those fortress cities (if he can build 3 million SAMAS, there's probably the capability to expand the fortress cities) but because he wants a cheap and ready source of people who will fight and die for him so that they may be le into one of those fortress cities (or not be thrown out).

4) He has a race of sentient beings breed and raised as soldier-slaves for his empire (the Dog Boys).


In short, Prosek is evil because he lies to his subjects, forces them to live in squaler, squanders the lives of his subjects and engages in camapigns of hate and genocide just so that he can maintain his position of power.

yup, that's pretty diabolical.
ok I concede, he's evil.

Karl might be evil, but he has a lovely singing voice

Mithral wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:Karl might be evil, but he has a lovely singing voice

*whispers* ...Eunuch. *makes snipping gesture*

Karl Prosek is the Frank Sinatra of Rifts

The simple answer? His published alignment is simply defamation of character, he is actually a caring individual who truly yearns for the safety and security of mankind.

Proseksword wrote:The simple answer? His published alignment is simply defamation of character, he is actually a caring individual who truly yearns for the safety and security of mankind.

Mithral wrote:

dmart11 wrote:You make a good point,
but my arguement is that emperor prosek is portrayed as a tyrant and dictator.yet when you read about him, he is little more than a human supremist,which is a good for a us-bad for them type of situation.there is nothing however to indicate he is an evil, diabolical maniac.He doesn't have a hidden agenda, no secret society membership, no human on human genocide (except for the burbs).He's not "hurting" or betraying his people for his own gain. and part of being diabolical is "betrayal".... of ANYBODY.and as he is coalition and the burbians are not, he is not in a sense betraying them. as it stands,according to alignment he is a worse sentient being than lord spylnn.But how? he's not the ruler of a slave empire in league with all manors of evil.

Could've fooled me. Intentionally keeping his subjects ignorant of the truth, keeping them ignorant of anything, killing people in the 'Burbs (even humans) on the spot if they even suspect involvement in "illegal" activities.

Nope, he's certainly not hurting his own subjects.

And that's without even going into the morality of killing people who aren't your subjects en masse just because you don't like them.

Can you say Adolf Hitler? Prosek does idolize him and does his best to "improve" on Hitlers ideas of a Supreme race. Trust me if Prosek where to eliminate all the D-bees, monsters, and magic-users in NA he would turn on the human race and weed out the "undesirables" that he saw didn't fit his new plan.

Maniacs like him need someone weaker to ( in his own perverse view) to trod upon. It is also a way of keeping the ignorant masses scared and in false need of a "Savior", which he is only too happy to play the part of.

Toc Rat wrote:

Toc Rat: The Col. thinks that the Emperor is what?
Col's Driver: Principled.
Toc Rat:

Chuck McDaniel wrote:

Mithral wrote:

dmart11 wrote:You make a good point,
but my arguement is that emperor prosek is portrayed as a tyrant and dictator.yet when you read about him, he is little more than a human supremist,which is a good for a us-bad for them type of situation.there is nothing however to indicate he is an evil, diabolical maniac.He doesn't have a hidden agenda, no secret society membership, no human on human genocide (except for the burbs).He's not "hurting" or betraying his people for his own gain. and part of being diabolical is "betrayal".... of ANYBODY.and as he is coalition and the burbians are not, he is not in a sense betraying them. as it stands,according to alignment he is a worse sentient being than lord spylnn.But how? he's not the ruler of a slave empire in league with all manors of evil.

Could've fooled me. Intentionally keeping his subjects ignorant of the truth, keeping them ignorant of anything, killing people in the 'Burbs (even humans) on the spot if they even suspect involvement in "illegal" activities.

Nope, he's certainly not hurting his own subjects.

And that's without even going into the morality of killing people who aren't your subjects en masse just because you don't like them.

Can you say Adolf Hitler? Prosek does idolize him and does his best to "improve" on Hitlers ideas of a Supreme race. Trust me if Prosek where to eliminate all the D-bees, monsters, and magic-users in NA he would turn on the human race and weed out the "undesirables" that he saw didn't fit his new plan.

Maniacs like him need someone weaker to ( in his own perverse view) to trod upon. It is also a way of keeping the ignorant masses scared and in false need of a "Savior", which he is only too happy to play the part of.

first off what heck are you talking about .

I think the sarcasim was lost. Quick somone find it!

Mech-Viper wrote:

Chuck McDaniel wrote:

Mithral wrote:

dmart11 wrote:You make a good point,
but my arguement is that emperor prosek is portrayed as a tyrant and dictator.yet when you read about him, he is little more than a human supremist,which is a good for a us-bad for them type of situation.there is nothing however to indicate he is an evil, diabolical maniac.He doesn't have a hidden agenda, no secret society membership, no human on human genocide (except for the burbs).He's not "hurting" or betraying his people for his own gain. and part of being diabolical is "betrayal".... of ANYBODY.and as he is coalition and the burbians are not, he is not in a sense betraying them. as it stands,according to alignment he is a worse sentient being than lord spylnn.But how? he's not the ruler of a slave empire in league with all manors of evil.

Could've fooled me. Intentionally keeping his subjects ignorant of the truth, keeping them ignorant of anything, killing people in the 'Burbs (even humans) on the spot if they even suspect involvement in "illegal" activities.

Nope, he's certainly not hurting his own subjects.

And that's without even going into the morality of killing people who aren't your subjects en masse just because you don't like them.

Can you say Adolf Hitler? Prosek does idolize him and does his best to "improve" on Hitlers ideas of a Supreme race. Trust me if Prosek where to eliminate all the D-bees, monsters, and magic-users in NA he would turn on the human race and weed out the "undesirables" that he saw didn't fit his new plan.

Maniacs like him need someone weaker to ( in his own perverse view) to trod upon. It is also a way of keeping the ignorant masses scared and in false need of a "Savior", which he is only too happy to play the part of.

first off what heck are you talking about .

dmart11 was stating that he thought Prosek wasn't presented as the Tyrant and Dictator in the Coalition Wars Series. He (dmart11) stated that he (Prosek) didn't seem to have a hidden agenda for attacking Tolkien.

I was just pointing out that Hitler did the same in WWII. They both attacked neighboring countries (kingdoms) that didn't pose a threat to them at all. That in it's self is evil and diabolical enough. Then the cleansing of the land of unwanted or undesirable races (species) due to the fact that they were different.

My statement showed how Prosek like Hitler would not stop with one race (species) i.e. Hitler- jews , Prosek- Non-Humans( this includes magic users in his view). Hitler also killed the mentally and physically impaired, non-caucasians among others. Prosek would have turn his sights on another target as soon as the d-bees\monsters\magic-users were taken care of.

That in essence is the diabolic and Tyrannic acts of his nature. The same reasons we now consider Hitler a monster. That is what I was talking about. You don't have to have hidden agendas or be part of some sort of member of a secret society.

Sorry if you were confused or didn't understand .

Chuck

Chuck McDaniel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

Chuck McDaniel wrote:

Mithral wrote:

dmart11 wrote:You make a good point,
but my arguement is that emperor prosek is portrayed as a tyrant and dictator.yet when you read about him, he is little more than a human supremist,which is a good for a us-bad for them type of situation.there is nothing however to indicate he is an evil, diabolical maniac.He doesn't have a hidden agenda, no secret society membership, no human on human genocide (except for the burbs).He's not "hurting" or betraying his people for his own gain. and part of being diabolical is "betrayal".... of ANYBODY.and as he is coalition and the burbians are not, he is not in a sense betraying them. as it stands,according to alignment he is a worse sentient being than lord spylnn.But how? he's not the ruler of a slave empire in league with all manors of evil.

Could've fooled me. Intentionally keeping his subjects ignorant of the truth, keeping them ignorant of anything, killing people in the 'Burbs (even humans) on the spot if they even suspect involvement in "illegal" activities.

Nope, he's certainly not hurting his own subjects.

And that's without even going into the morality of killing people who aren't your subjects en masse just because you don't like them.

Can you say Adolf Hitler? Prosek does idolize him and does his best to "improve" on Hitlers ideas of a Supreme race. Trust me if Prosek where to eliminate all the D-bees, monsters, and magic-users in NA he would turn on the human race and weed out the "undesirables" that he saw didn't fit his new plan.

Maniacs like him need someone weaker to ( in his own perverse view) to trod upon. It is also a way of keeping the ignorant masses scared and in false need of a "Savior", which he is only too happy to play the part of.

first off what heck are you talking about .

dmart11 was stating that he thought Prosek wasn't presented as the Tyrant and Dictator in the Coalition Wars Series. He (dmart11) stated that he (Prosek) didn't seem to have a hidden agenda for attacking Tolkien.

I was just pointing out that Hitler did the same in WWII. They both attacked neighboring countries (kingdoms) that didn't pose a threat to them at all. That in it's self is evil and diabolical enough. Then the cleansing of the land of unwanted or undesirable races (species) due to the fact that they were different.

My statement showed how Prosek like Hitler would not stop with one race (species) i.e. Hitler- jews , Prosek- Non-Humans( this includes magic users in his view). Hitler also killed the mentally and physically impaired, non-caucasians among others. Prosek would have turn his sights on another target as soon as the d-bees\monsters\magic-users were taken care of.

That in essence is the diabolic and Tyrannic acts of his nature. The same reasons we now consider Hitler a monster. That is what I was talking about. You don't have to have hidden agendas or be part of some sort of member of a secret society.

Sorry if you were confused or didn't understand .

Chuck

I do understand and Karl Prosek uses hitler tactics to a point, but knows hitler was crazy with delusion of grandeur. But for the most part most of what we know about Prosek comes from Erin Tarn, who some on this board believes was in a relationship with karl that ended bad.

Atramentus wrote:I think a better question is why isn't Karl Prosek of the Miscreant alignment. I've never seen indication that Karl would sell out his son for a quick credit, or that he would frame a General for some heinous crime just to see the fallout, or that he would allow Bradford to do any number of things that Bradford is itching to do, or anything much that really fits Diabolic. You can do a lot of nasty things in Miscreant like enslave beings, kill innocents.

Where are the Diabolic defining events that Prosek has done? The things not allowed by Miscreant guidlines?

this is my exact initial POINT and post reflected exactly but worded more directly!That's my question.I think the thing about it is that the coalition is almost nazi party version 2 and making karl prosek anything higher than diabolic wouldn't be PC.

Well, one of the things that sets Diabolic aprt is the megalomania. A belief or desire to be in absolute control of everything.

A miscreant isn't goign to say no to power, but a Diabolicwill make every effort to get it and attain it.

Prosek seems to be power hungry if not outright power mad. All of his evils are done in the name of raising himself higher. He had himself declared emperorer because he wasn't satisified with president. He's like a Palpatine without the dark side of the force.

Jefffar wrote:Well, one of the things that sets Diabolic aprt is the megalomania. A belief or desire to be in absolute control of everything.

A miscreant isn't goign to say no to power, but a Diabolicwill make every effort to get it and attain it.

Prosek seems to be power hungry if not outright power mad. All of his evils are done in the name of raising himself higher. He had himself declared emperorer because he wasn't satisified with president. He's like a Palpatine without the dark side of the force.

true,but one could argue that if ONEalignment prerequisite made for the alignment, then lord spylnn could in effect be unscrupulous perhaps?

Just presenting an example of how you can tell Miscrant from Diabolic and why Prosek is closer to the latter.

Wait, there is an actual debate going on now about IF Karl is really diabolic?

Thats...Thats...I don't have the words!! There is only one logical thing to do in the face of that kind of absolute absurdity

Jefffar wrote:Well, one of the things that sets Diabolic aprt is the megalomania. A belief or desire to be in absolute control of everything.

A miscreant isn't goign to say no to power, but a Diabolicwill make every effort to get it and attain it.

Prosek seems to be power hungry if not outright power mad. All of his evils are done in the name of raising himself higher. He had himself declared emperorer because he wasn't satisified with president. He's like a Palpatine without the dark side of the force.

god i just love this, Jefffar you are wrong. Karl never declared himself Emperor, he start a grassroots movement to have him declared Emperor and for 2 years, as for the call for him to became Emperor was too much and gladly accepts the new appointment, so palpatine is just a guy with nice lightning powers, who kill some silly men with nite light swords and declare himself emperor. And Karl all he had to do was say "yes i will be your emperor"

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Prosek seems to be power hungry if not outright power mad. All of his evils are done in the name of raising himself higher. He had himself declared emperorer because he wasn't satisified with president. He's like a Palpatine without the dark side of the force.

god i just love this, Jefffar you are wrong. Karl never declared himself Emperor, he start a grassroots movement to have him declared Emperor and for 2 years, as for the call for him to became Emperor was too much and gladly accepts the new appointment, so palpatine is just a guy with nice lightning powers, who kill some silly men with nite light swords and declare himself emperor. And Karl all he had to do was say "yes i will be your emperor"

Palpatine manouvred the senate to first electing him Chancellor and then to giving him extraordinary powers that he used to make hmself Emperor.

Creating the circumstances with which you will be begged to become emperor (when you are already president no less) is qute similar.

And both are beautiful in their Machiavellian cleverness.

Jefffar wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Prosek seems to be power hungry if not outright power mad. All of his evils are done in the name of raising himself higher. He had himself declared emperorer because he wasn't satisified with president. He's like a Palpatine without the dark side of the force.

god i just love this, Jefffar you are wrong. Karl never declared himself Emperor, he start a grassroots movement to have him declared Emperor and for 2 years, as for the call for him to became Emperor was too much and gladly accepts the new appointment, so palpatine is just a guy with nice lightning powers, who kill some silly men with nite light swords and declare himself emperor. And Karl all he had to do was say "yes i will be your emperor"

Palpatine manouvred the senate to first electing him Chancellor and then to giving him extraordinary powers that he used to make hmself Emperor.

Creating the circumstances with which you will be begged to become emperor (when you are already president no less) is qute similar.

And both are beautiful in their Machiavellian cleverness.

no there is a different in chairman and doing to grassroots movement to get yourself vote in as emperor vs just declaring yourself emperor

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Palpatine manouvred the senate to first electing him Chancellor and then to giving him extraordinary powers that he used to make hmself Emperor.

Creating the circumstances with which you will be begged to become emperor (when you are already president no less) is qute similar.

And both are beautiful in their Machiavellian cleverness.

no there is a different in chairman and doing to grassroots movement to get yourself vote in as emperor vs just declaring yourself emperor

Not as much as you think.

Both men were already in positions of power.

Both men manipulated people to gain them positions of more power - whilemakign it look like all along that they were gracously accepting the extra powers given.

The difference is that once he had attained his goal, Palpatine dropped much of the charade.

Jefffar wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Palpatine manouvred the senate to first electing him Chancellor and then to giving him extraordinary powers that he used to make hmself Emperor.

Creating the circumstances with which you will be begged to become emperor (when you are already president no less) is qute similar.

And both are beautiful in their Machiavellian cleverness.

no there is a different in chairman and doing to grassroots movement to get yourself vote in as emperor vs just declaring yourself emperor

Not as much as you think.

Both men were already in positions of power.

Both men manipulated people to gain them positions of more power - whilemakign it look like all along that they were gracously accepting the extra powers given.

The difference is that once he had attained his goal, Palpatine dropped much of the charade.

still there is a different on how they got in power
Prosek inherit the job at the age 34 a year after the death of his father and at age 41 he was emperor with much public support

meanwhile palpatine cause an civil war to gain in power. apples and oranges

And aside that he has powerful magic users that protect Chi-Town (thus making him a hypocrite), Absolutely foul treatment of anyone is isn't your non-magic/psionic human and other genocidal traits, wasn't there something about how someone in his family fell in with the opposition, but supposedly they were kidnapped according to the propaganda? I am back after a three years absence so I dont remember exactly. Or am I just completely off here?

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Jefffar wrote:no there is a different in chairman and doing to grassroots movement to get yourself vote in as emperor vs just declaring yourself emperor

Not as much as you think.

Both men were already in positions of power.

Both men manipulated people to gain them positions of more power - whilemakign it look like all along that they were gracously accepting the extra powers given.

The difference is that once he had attained his goal, Palpatine dropped much of the charade.

still there is a different on how they got in power
Prosek inherit the job at the age 34 a year after the death of his father and at age 41 he was emperor with much public support

meanwhile palpatine cause an civil war to gain in power. apples and oranges[/quote]

Palpatine used a civil war because the republic didn't have an external threat to rally against. Prosek could incite against D-Bees and Magic Users. Palpatine needed to create the Clone Wars to give the people a reason to back a strongman.

rc_brooks wrote:And aside that he has powerful magic users that protect Chi-Town (thus making him a hypocrite)

as far as the vanguard, the coalition disregards them as myth.
there's no documented proof that karl prosek is in cohoots with them.then again,I haven't read the vanguard sourcebook completely so I could be wrong.

I could easily see why Desmond Bradford is Diabolic Evil, but it seems like it would be harder to justify Karl Prosek as being Diabolic, which of course is the ultimate of evil. You could almost say that he's Abberant because he has a twisted code of ethics which he lives by. He doesen't give his word of honor to D-Bees so he's technically not violating his word to them, and also he appears to be doing what he thinks is right. And though he knows that humans can use magic without being corrupted (ie the vanguard) the kidnapping of his wife almost certainly convinced him that magic ultimately corrupts its users and twists them into inhuman monsters, a group of people we all know he dislikes intensely. So while he's a bad guy for sure, and uncompromising... wouldn't he be more Abbertant? Since almost every other diabolical character is a sadistic psychopath, and really Karl Prosek is more of a person with a severely twisted code of ethics, which he lives by.

Lobotaru wrote:Emperor Prosek declared the war on Tolkeen for a variety of reasons, none of which are self defense. Emperor Prosek wanted part of Tolkeen's territory taken over so he could set up a military front against the Xiticix. He also did it to take out a potential rival before it could grow too strong to match.

However, despite the conclusion of the Coalition War against Tolkeen, most of Tolkeen's population still lives, albeit, as refugees. Either way, they can easily rebuild their nation with the manpower presented to them, so Tolkeen really hasn't been "defeated," but merely set back in its development slightly.

With all the experience general Holmes has had with the Xiticix front, I'm starting to find it hard that he wouldn't begin to see the human side of d-bees, such as from Lazlo. I mean, any character with enough outside experience can see that Emperor Prosek is wrong, and General Holmes is not a corrupt official like the rest of the Coalition high command.

if the prosek family is ever toppled, Holmes will be called by the massed to step up as the leader of the coalition.as for taking over tolkeen to battle the xiticix, I would assume that the coalition would rather have somebody else do the fighting.a war with the xits is a long haul, all or nothing.And after that costly venture that was tolkeen, the coalition is going to be licking their wounds and recouping for at least 4-5 years.the xits wouldn't be the same type of enemy, you'd have to go deep hive to achieve anything significant, a costly tactic.

apprentice04 wrote:correct me if im wrong but did the anti magic hatred of the CS come from being attacked by Dunscon and the federation of magic. but then everyone else in the federation backed out on the attack like tolkeen? i would call the siege on tolkeen a counterattack

The Federation of Magic, Tolkeen and Lazlo were idealogical if not practical allies. They all beleived that magic, d-bees and humans can get along in this world.

The senior Dunscan beleived that he could attack Chi-Town and win. This conflict stems from what seems to be a trifiling dsput over some poorly chosen words beteen Dunscon and the CHi-Twn leadership.

The junoir Dunscon blames Tolkeen and Lazlo for his father's death and hte loss of the Federation of Magic because they stayed Neutral rather than joining the Federtion's attack. This anger is particularly focused on Tolkeen who had a strong military force and would likely have been able to shift the balance of power.

So the CS - Federation of Magic War did not involve Tolkeen at any point.

On the other hand, the CS - Tolkeen war involved the Federation who were actively trying ot push the war forward and sabotage both parties to ensure hte maximum casualties.

Lobotaru wrote:Emperor Prosek declared the war on Tolkeen for a variety of reasons, none of which are self defense. Emperor Prosek wanted part of Tolkeen's territory taken over so he could set up a military front against the Xiticix. He also did it to take out a potential rival before it could grow too strong to match.

Couldn't that be considered self-defense? Self-defense doesen't necessarily mean heat of the moment.