Can a headhunter assassin be good?

Prince Artemis · Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:49 am

No. By the rules no, and by logic no. At best they could be abarrent. You're talking about a guy that bases their lives arround killing, prides themselves on killing, and unlike the soldiers on the battlefeild that are 'kill or be killed' this class specializes in killing people during moments of weakness for money. The only way they could do it, is if they were hit with a soul twist and took it to heart, gave up being a assassin and reformed(which means new occ), or some other magical means of swapping alignment.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:16 am

Sociopaths, more or less, yes. They seem to love their work and take pride in making each death memorable.

Nekira Sudacne · Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:11 pm

no and hell no.

They are desisnetised to death and others physical pain. they have NO special resistance to other forms of psycological tramua though.

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:54 pm

Jefffar wrote:Sociopaths, more or less, yes. They seem to love their work and take pride in making each death memorable.

yes the Miscreant and Diabolical BK-Headhunters are Sociopaths by the definition in the diagnostic manual. Then we have a big grey area with Arbberant BK's. From their allignment and suposed actions their personality would be very close to that of a Freelance Military Sniper. One of the criteria being able to " Kill repeatedly and objectivly without signs of mental trauma." An Assasin or Hitman would have to get intimatly close to another being and kill them. According to some very old studies maybe at most one half of 1% of people could do that.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:52 pm

Prince Artemis wrote:No. By the rules no, and by logic no. At best they could be abarrent. You're talking about a guy that bases their lives arround killing, prides themselves on killing, and unlike the soldiers on the battlefeild that are 'kill or be killed' this class specializes in killing people during moments of weakness for money. The only way they could do it, is if they were hit with a soul twist and took it to heart,gave up being a assassin and reformed( which means new occ), or some other magical means of swapping alignment.

I could disagree with this, it's job that's evil not class..but that's another thread.

but for the record Killing for money is a selfish act at best.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:14 pm

I disagree, Rimmer.
I think once you can agree on a price for human life, and then taking that life, you have slipped into the realms of evil.

A selfish character may allow and turn his head to an act like this to make money, but not do it himself.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:24 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:I disagree, Rimmer.
I think once you can agree on a price for human life, and then taking that life, you have slipped into the realms of evil.

A selfish character may allow and turn his head to an act like this to make money, but not do it himself.

Hey If I killed an evil dictator for money that means I'm donig a good act for a selfish purpose...But As I said that's another thread.

I was talking about an assasain having to switch classes upon becoming good. that's just plain silly considering...

Cyberknights and Psi-warriors can have evil alignments and keep there powers. I fail to see the difference in assassains becoming good.

He still has all the class skills and powers only he uses them for good. After all it just abilites. and it is not job/OCC that is neceassarily evil it's the person...

Crossbows don't kill people, People do....

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:30 pm

Well, by that logic...
I'm sure the evil dictator doesn't see himself as evil either. He's just tryin to bring a little law n order around here...

SO then which one is evil at that point? Does it take a consensus to determine evil?

"Today's Gallup poll is: Is our dictator evil? Well, 47% said yes, while 42% said no...the other 11% chose Quit calling me during dinner..."

SO then becasue the majority thought he was evil, he's evil?

You'd say "NO! His actions determine that he's evil, not his intentions!!!"

Bingo.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:36 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Well, by that logic...
I'm sure the evil dictator doesn't see himself as evil either. He's just tryin to bring a little law n order around here...

SO then which one is evil at that point? Does it take a consensus to determine evil?

"Today's Gallup poll is: Is our dictator evil? Well, 47% said yes, while 42% said no...the other 11% chose Quit calling me during dinner..."

SO then becasue the majority thought he was evil, he's evil?

You'd say "NO! His actions determine that he's evil, not his intentions!!!"

Bingo.

I would go by intentions and action...as they are a bi-product of the other. One must have some intention to act, but to have intention you must be planning to act.

Eitherway the assassain trying to free the people and make a good profit is still acting good, but because he wants cash/trade for his services he's still more selfish.

Akin to an arms dealer, the arms dealer KNOWS what weapons do and what people do with them. but does not take a cause personally. just like the assassain. but can choose on who he sells to.

So to put simply...the assassain is as good or evil as his choice of assignments.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:39 pm

THe arms dealer is still selfish because he doesn't actually do the killing with his products...

The assassin does.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:45 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:THe arms dealer is still selfish because he doesn't actually do the killing with his products...

The assassin does.

Hence when I said:
the assassain is as good or evil as his choice of assignments.

The arms dealer does know when a guy who is an assassain buys a Laser Siper Rifle what will likely happen.

True, He will never be Principled..But selfish I can see. maybe a border line Scrupulus wanna be...but Never Principled.

Besides a selfish assassain can get good money as security or bodyguard work.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:57 pm

Yeah he could...
But then he's not an assassin anymore...

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:00 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Yeah he could...
But then he's not an assassin anymore...

Still is by OCC, but applying skills for better, more acceptible use..

Besides I always took D&D approach. An assassain is anyone willing to take a life for money. (no specific OCC needed)

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:04 pm

Wouldn't he just be a plain ol' headhunter?
If I were GM and the character actually had a change of heart, I'd let him take future levels in headhunter, but either way he could not continue as an assassin. They gotta be evil to do what they do. Sorry.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Wouldn't he just be a plain ol' headhunter?
If I were GM and the character actually had a change of heart, I'd let him take future levels in headhunter, but either way he could not continue as an assassin. They gotta be evil to do what they do. Sorry.

Who better to catch thief than another thief?

It's not OCC I care about, it's how well he can stop an assassain. It's like this:

I have an assassain after me I'll Hire another to protect me. Since he can anticipate attacks, determine the best way to guard me and what attacks are going to be used against based on terrain and location better than anyone.

Hence an OCC isn't evil, the way it is used is evil...but that's just one view.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:14 pm

Assassins study a target then pick a good time to strike (over simplified).
Hiring another assassin to stop him?

I think I'd go with a security specialist or bodyguard m'self.

Besides. since they're both evil the 2 assassins could decide to off me and split the take...

This just keeps gettin eaiser

Chuck McDaniel · Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:15 pm

Sorry, but first of all most of your "Dictators" know when they have crossed the line from wanting to bring law and order, and becoming a ruthless despot.

Assassins are by natural neutral. They provide a service for payment. Saying that he/she is "evil" is like saying a Scout tracker is evil for taking the life of an animal too sell the meat as a service.

They both kill to provide a service. Just so happens that the Assassin kills two legged mammals or two or more legged D-bees. This may sound "evil" but in essence it is the same. We just consider the Assassin "evil" for killing sentient beings of his species or alien.

Now if the Assassin goes and kills a bus load of children D-bee or not then yeah he/she would definitely be considered "evil".

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Chuck

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:17 pm

If an animal's life is as important and replacebale as human life, then youre absolutely right.

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:18 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Assassins study a target then pick a good time to strike (over simplified).
Hiring another assassin to stop him?

I think I'd go with a security specialist or bodyguard m'self.

Besides. since they're both evil the 2 assassins could decide to off me and split the take...

This just keeps gettin eaiser

Just pay yours well. and if all else fails pay them BOTH well to forget about you..

Rimmerdal · Unread post by **Rimmerdal** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:27 pm

Chuck McDaniel wrote:Sorry, but first of all most of your "Dictators" know when they have crossed the line from wanting to bring law and order, and becoming a ruthless despot.

Assassins are by natural neutral. They provide a service for payment. Saying that he/she is "evil" is like saying a Scout tracker is evil for taking the life of an animal too sell the meat as a service.

They both kill to provide a service. Just so happens that the Assassin kills two legged mammals or two or more legged D-bees. This may sound "evil" but in essence it is the same. We just consider the Assassin "evil" for killing sentient beings of his species or alien.

Now if the Assassin goes and kills a bus load of children D-bee or not then yeah he/she would definitely be considered "evil".

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Chuck

Nicely put, it's all about proffesionalism (best word I could think of...).

He has a target he's neutral he does it for kick he's evil. makes sense in theory. though on thing does bother me. It seems very easy to say and understand this 'ideaology'.

That's why goverments employ agents trained as snipers and military snipers to quietly deal with 'untouchables'. in mid-evil or on Rifts earth there are alot of 'Untouchable' targets. but often put a code inplace to keep them in check.

Chuck McDaniel · Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:47 pm

Through out history most Assassins have had a code they go by, be it no women and children, holymen, relatives, and so forth.

Now I said most. In feudal Japan the Ninja thought nothing of killing children of families they were sent after. This is one reason why I have never been a big fan of ninjas. Their honor came before all else and they would kill whomever to keep it, even their families if ordered to as an act of loyalty.

Assassins of most other countries would not take a job if it came in conflict with their personal code or would work around it (find a loop hole in the contract). The reason being is that most Assassins, especially within the last 100 years, have been trained by a military that, like Rimmerdal stated, instill a checks and balance system in them when they are trained.

Granted some don't take these to heart and when they do not, they suffer the consequences of their actions.

Rockwolf66 · Unread post by **Rockwolf66** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:25 pm

Rimmerdal wrote:I have an assassain after me I'll Hire another to protect me. Since he can anticipate attacks, determine the best way to guard me and what attacks are going to be used against based on terrain and location better than anyone.

Thats exactly what the British government did in real life when setting up the SAS' Bodyguard Training Team in 1962. On page 139 of The Illustrated History of the SAS by Ken Conner is reads:

All the people involved in SAS BG Training had very recent operational experiance of attacking tatgets. It was put to good use when the poachers turned gamekeepers and begain defending targets insted of attacking them.

If a BK Headhunter becomes of Good or selfish alighnment then I would think that they would turn to bodyguarding to make their money as they understand the art of assasination without getting more people than nessisary killed.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:55 am

Yes, a FORMER assassin would make a great bodyguard. But then you'd be hiring a bodyguard, not an assassin...

Chuck McDaniel · Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:12 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Yes, a FORMER assassin would make a great bodyguard. But then you'd be hiring a bodyguard, not an assassin...

Yes a bodyguard with assassin skills. That would be an assassin converting from Anarchist-diabolic to Principled-Unprincipled. It just shows him using his OCC skills in a different capacity of his profession.

Chuck

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:37 pm

Sure, whenever his new OCC caught up with his assassin levels, then he could use both skilsets, according to Palladium rules.

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:44 pm

Kryzbyn wrote:Sure, whenever his new OCC caught up with his assassin levels, then he could use both skilsets, according to Palladium rules.

actually, both skillsets are avaible right away, assassin just dosn't advance any further until new OCC catches up.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:57 pm

Oh, yeah you're right. They just don't progress until they catch up.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:32 pm

In N&Ss the Bodyguard skill program is also the Assassain skill program

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:58 pm

Then I guess in N&Ss that would work.

But my point isn't so much about the skills it's how they are used and/or the kind of person using them.

Kryzbyn · Unread post by **Kryzbyn** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:25 am

Here is the Dual OCC rules:
Dual OCCs

Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

Found this in the FAQ portion of the Forums.

'Course this is for PFRPG and the FAQ states that in Rifts, only de-tox'd juicers and de-commisioned Borgs are allowed this option.
Here's the link:
http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=51655