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THose are both interesting ideas. But I'm not sure how they would fly. We'd need to get more responses from the other members of the forums and maybe get a response from PB on an official interpretation on this one.

Where did you see the specualtion about Styphon doing that to Atlantis?

I'll have to review that too, now that you mention that! Thank you!

At Alain's request, I will give my opinion here, for whatever it's worth.

Alain wrote:Okay, so I reviewed the Anvil Galaxy and just wanted to clear up some erroneous claims...

- The Altess are... descended from the humans that inhabited the Three Galaxies.

This is, unfortuantely, impossible. Humans, the Humans of Terra Prime, did not arrive in the Three Galaxies until -10,000 years ago (at the beginning of the third Galactic Era). They were reduced to barbarism and spent teh next 5000 years learning how to be a space faring race.

The Kilter Atrocities took place 9000 years ago, during which time the Humans on Terra Prime were probably re-discovering fire. There is no way they could have settled the Anvil Galaxy, which is 30,000 light-years away.

If the two races, Humans and Altess are in anyway related, it is because the Altess were likewise placed in the Three Galaxies by persons unknown.

Take for example, the fact that Altess Prime is their "origin world." Yet on Galdon, a compeltely different planet, we find ancinet temples, dedicated to the worship of the Cosmic Forge, that "predate Altess history". And the Altess have some reason to beleive that their barbarian ancestors lived here... so how can one species be from two different planets?

The answer of course, is that Bill Coffin had never even looked at a Phase World book until Kevin told him to write Anvil Galaxy; he even admits it in the book's intro. Many, many times throughout Anvil Galaxy Mr Coffin writes one thing and then contradicts it pages later. Not his fault, and I still love teh book, but the above problem with the Altess is a good example. We cannot take the author's at their word.

Now, Plato puts the sinking of Atlantis in 9300 BC (really, Plato said it happend 9 millenia before his time). Assuming synconisity across the MegaVerse, which I do, it would seem that the Atlanteans were far more advanced than the Altess (who were in the midst fo the Atrocities at teh same time, and only became immortal rich high-tech people after the killing), and the Humans of Terra Prime, whom, as I've said, are busily making flint weapons.

So if anyone is descended from anyone, it is the Altess who are the descendants of the Atlanteans. but, since the Altess do not bear the Marks of Heritage, this is very unlikely.

Alain wrote:- I don't know the relation between Atlantis and the earth humans, but it would make sense that the Atlanteans are descendants of the original human race on Earth. They travelled from the future into the past.

I'm not sure where you get the time travel notion, but the Atlanteans are Earth, as in Rifts Earth, natives. They evolved here, and just happened, by their atunement to all things magical, to have created the Earth's first, great civilization. We all live in their aftermath.

-

Alain wrote:he Altess might be interested in Rift Technology as a means to go back in time before the Kilter Massacre, and save their lost genetic heritage.

Very possible. Maybe they are already working on it...although, if certain sentences in my upcoming Phase World book remain unedited, it is impossible to go back or alter the past (doesn't mean you can't try, just means that the past is the past, and it cannot be changed).

Alain wrote:- The Sunaj assassin's reason to destroy their own race are quite dubious (could someone fill me in?).

Basically, they are just jerks.

In short, it's a very interesting theory, with some compelling ideas, but personally, I just don't buy it. The Altess are not related to Altantis or the displaced human race from Terra Prime. They are simply aliens who rolled low on the alien appearance table, and thus were "indistinguishable from a human being"

Alain wrote:I had another idea to add to the mix...

What if earth humans and also wormwood humans, were all descended from these refugee clans? They both have virtually the same physiology.

Suddenly the Altess would be very motivated to go to Earth and Wormwood to intervene. They have enough financial resources to rival Naruni (or exceed), so it wouldn't be too out of the question, especially if it means acquiring the Cosmic Forge and becoming Gods.

Good as a "what if" but NOT as Canon.

For one thing, ALL Atlanteans, everywhere, are "descended" from the Earthlings who long ago mastered interdimensional magic and began to explore the Multiverse.

(Remember, the super-rift created by the Atlanteans cast them back in space AND time; some of them went so far back into the past that some of them "crash landed" on one planet and eventually developed the borg species later known as the Mechanoids. Other humans might even have been forced even farther back into time and populated the early Three Galaxies Civilizations -there are about 100 billion Humans in that dimension.)

For another thing, Altess are humanoid, NOT actually human. Nor were they ever, apparently.

Braden, GMPhD wrote:

Alain wrote:- I don't know the relation between Atlantis and the earth humans, but it would make sense that the Atlanteans are descendants of the original human race on Earth. They travelled from the future into the past.

I'm not sure where you get the time travel notion, but the Atlanteans are Earth, as in Rifts Earth, natives. They evolved here, and just happened, by their atunement to all things magical, to have created the Earth's first, great civilization. We all live in their aftermath.

In this one regard I must disagree with/correct Braden.

Surely Braden will remember clearly upon recollection that the Atlantis Disaster was SO awesome in terms of energies released that it actually caused rifts in time that propelled them backwards in time (a feat that is otherwise impossible).

Thus it is that thousands to tens of thousands of years ago -our time -the Atlanteans ("Atlanees") were time-warped to a far distant past where they forgot about magic, and developed high technology...culminating in the creation of the instruments of their destruction, the Mechanoids.

Ah, yes...

darkmax wrote:Sorry but what was the Atlantean-Mechanoid relation stated? Pray refer me to it, thanks.

In the Rifts/Mechanoids Sourcebook. Front of the book, I don't remember the pages right now.

An ancient race of humans, "Humans" as in "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" called "Atlanees" arrived on the planet that would one day birth the Mechanoids.

Over time, and perhaps because of the Atlantis disaster, they dropped magic completely, and turned to super-science.....

It's on page 29 of the Rifts: Sourcebook 2 The Mechanoids.
Here's what it says:

Ironically, the Mechanoids' ancestry is deeply rooted in humankind. Long ago, there was a race of humans in a galaxy hundreds of thousands of lightyears away from Earth. Legend tells that these humans were refugees fleeing from a terrible disaster. Their homeworld was torn asunder and they were among the fortunate few to escape the great destruction. Nobody knows who they were or from where they came. The oldest legends identify them as "Atlanees", but they have been given many names; their true identity lost to antiquity.

Kinda nice to know that its not only the players who like the TA's
Apparently, the developers are quite fond of them too

Alain wrote:

darkmax wrote:Seerions from Scraypers.

Yeah. I have that book, but I don't remember reading that they are somehow related to the Seerions.

I believe its in the section about using the book with other game settings, towards the back.

It is in there, it also explains how the Seerions (humans only) would not believe it unless faced with overwhelming evidence.

Unknown_Nobody wrote:"True Atlanteans are convinced that humans of Seeron are a lost atlantean clan. An unknown amount of atlanteans were scattered though the megaverse during the cataclism over 10,000 years when ancient atlantis was destroyed"
~Rifts Note

Yes, and as the "Super Rift" that was created was in the attempt to connect one rift to 1000 or 10,000 other worlds/dimensions it's possible, that some Atlanteans and humans were rifted to other parts in the the Megaverse.

If the planet that the Atlees developed on wasn't rich in magic energy and some Atlanteans landed there what could they do. Their whole sociey and cultur was geared towards the use of magic. No magic no point in holding to what really what the identity of the Atlanteas at the time. Technology is the only way to survive then.

Same goes for the humans that later would create the Mechanoids.

Also about, and I'm not sure if you guys are talking about the same creaters, but the Gene-Splicers, ones out of Mindwerks. They mention that they are aliens, not humans, hell with all the magic and psionic resistance I'd have to say they'd be a temperally rifted decendents of humans, millions of years later, but that is a big stretch. It does mention that they are mentioned as taking up some mammals from trees, experamenting on them, and the letting them lose. This could have been hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years before ancient Atlantis.

Just thought, I'd throw my two cents in.

Spark wrote:

Unknown_Nobody wrote:"True Atlanteans are convinced that humans of Seeron are a lost atlantean clan. An unknown amount of atlanteans were scattered though the megaverse during the cataclism over 10,000 years when ancient atlantis was destroyed"
~Rifts Note

Yes, and as the "Super Rift" that was created was in the attempt to connect one rift to 1000 or 10,000 other worlds/dimensions it's possible, that some Atlanteans and humans were rifted to other parts in the the Megaverse.

If the planet that the Atlees developed on wasn't rich in magic energy and some Atlanteans landed there what could they do. Their whole sociey and cultur was geared towards the use of magic. No magic no point in holding to what really what the identity of the Atlanteas at the time. Technology is the only way to survive then.

Same goes for the humans that later would create the Mechanoids.

Also about, and I'm not sure if you guys are talking about the same creaters, but the Gene-Splicers, ones out of Mindwerks. They mention that they are aliens, not humans, hell with all the magic and psionic resistance I'd have to say they'd be a temperally rifted decendents of humans, millions of years later, but that is a big stretch. It does mention that they are mentioned as taking up some mammals from trees, experamenting on them, and the letting them lose. This could have been hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years before ancient Atlantis.

Just thought, I'd throw my two cents in.

The "Atlanees" and the humans that created the Mechanoids are one and the same.

Spark wrote:

Unknown_Nobody wrote:"True Atlanteans are convinced that humans of Seeron are a lost atlantean clan. An unknown amount of atlanteans were scattered though the megaverse during the cataclism over 10,000 years when ancient atlantis was destroyed"
~Rifts Note

Yes, and as the "Super Rift" that was created was in the attempt to connect one rift to 1000 or 10,000 other worlds/dimensions

actually, the experiment was to try to link to every dimension in exsistance simultaniously IIRC.

The problem was that inifnite range ment infinate PPE, which they didn't have. so it drained off all the PPE that was avaible then shut down when the generator ran out of juice.

Alain wrote:Could the Atlantean Clans be some of the lost clans of the Altess Dynasty? Both of their anatomies are similiar. Heck, their names are somewhat similiar. And they both have a clan-based Hierarchy.

I could imagine that during Jurgo Kilter's reign, some clans abandoned the homeworld and sought refuge away from Kilter's reach. Perhaps they journeyed to earth and made a new home there.

The Atlanteans could have had this portion of their history lost during the failed Rifts experiment that brought in the vampire intelligences.

But even more importantly, this could be an interesting development in the Altess' belief that once all the lost DNA of the massacred clans are brought together, the Cosmic Forge would reveal itself to them. A massive effort would be made to unite the Altess and the nomadic Atlantean clans.

Plausible? Incredible? Discuss!

No, they're tottally unrealted.

For one they have different dimenisons of origion. for another the altess's superhuman attributes come from mellenia of genetic therapy and selective breeding. the atlantians come from long-term magical exposure.

darkmax wrote:Err..... where is that canon?

Front pages of the Mechanoids Sourcebook.

Details the rise and fall of the Atlanees....the cause of the Mechanoids' insane hatred of all bipedal humanoids.

I guess I'll have to look too. It's been a while since I looked thru that one too.

The Mechanoids "A History of Distruction", go to page 29.

Thanks! I'll look it up after I get off of work tonight.

gadrin wrote:So now that a link to the Atlanteans has been established (I mean the Altess not the Mechs), just how does your theory proceed ?

How does it reveal the Forge ?



Is the genetic map equivalent to a star map ? (in some way/shape/form) Or something else ?

don't let it die on the vine...

Nothings been proven. Just the exsistance of technologically super advanced humans. nothing to do with atlantians or altess

I just read through the entire 7 pages of posts on this topic. I do like the idea of the Altess being related to the True Atlanteans. I had played with the idea that the Altess were a Clan of Atlanteans that left earth at some point before the magical experiment gone bad. I go with the idea that their are many lost tribes scattered throughout the Megaverse.

Some, like the group in South America left Atlantis before the destruction was wrought on the island. Groups like the Seerions or the Atlantee from Mechanoids may have left Earth before, or during the cataclysm that sank Atlantis. Maybe the Atlantee preferred technology over magic, which was why they left, or perhaps the Seerions abandoned magic after escaping the destruction of Atlantis. Even the humans of Wormwood might have some connection. I don't need it all spelled out, and there is noway to "prove" it, but it can all be possible.

As for the Altess, I like the idea that they were a tribe of Atlanteans who left to do genetic experimentation before the island was sunk. There is no really backing this up, or directly contridicting it. Maybe they had an outpost, and the majority of their population came as refugees from the cataclysm. Perhaps the sadness of the race at their lost is what brought the Cosmic Forge to them. They helped the Forge hide by giving up their PPE, and in return the Forge gave the Altess a genetic map to find their magical birthright and past hidden to save them from their sorrow. Who knows, but I like the discussion.

It is one of those things that in my opinion is totally open to interpretation. The Seerion connection is verified, the Mechanoid, and Altess are not, but possible in one form or another. I don't see how the time line really becomes an issue unless you try to nail exact things down. I think the Altess being the ancestors of the Atlanteans won't work time wise, but I don't see why the other is automatically ruled out. If you like the Atleantean Clans being wayward Altess, then go for it. It is your game after all. If you would rather have no connection between the TA and any other group, then so be it.

Just having read the anvil galaxy book...
The Atlanteans are nothing like the Altess.
Its hard to believe that they would ever have shared common ancestry.
Atlanteans believe in the greater good and eradication of supernatural evil.
Altess care about racial quotas and the almighty credit (dollar).

On a side note, I hope the Splugorth invade the Central Alliance again...it'd be nice to see the sploogies get thier asses (or whatever they have that passes for an ass) handed to 'em by the Altess...again.

Its in Anvil.
They are on a planet called Alexandria in the UWW.

No problem!

Somehow...
I doubt it.