how many actions ?

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:03 pm

i believe that for a Juicer to grab a tank and then toss it at a target, it will take a minimum of 5 actions .. 3 of which you cannot defend against

1 - Juicer grabs the tank for tossing
2 - Juicer heaves and gets the leverage to get it off the ground
3 - Juicer gets it OFF the ground
4 - Juicer swings about to get momentum
5 - Juicer lets go and its on its way to target

according to the books a Juicer CAN [book legally] have the PS stat to do such a feat .. i DON'T run juicers so i have NO idea ..

actions 2, 3and 4 would leave the juicer open to attacks as he's currently involved in getting the heavy blocky item up off the ground and ready to throw and the getting the momentum to toss. that means that his defense rolls do NOT include any PP or skill enhancements .. and its his NATURAL stat or under on a d30

just my thoughts on the matter .. THAT is how 'reality' should enter a game .. what are YOUR thoughts on the subject?

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:45 am

fine .. whatever .. i see that it has been answered for me in terms that you can think of.

its a simple case of 'you can't do this or that' ... case in point 'picks up a tank' ... there are tank's [vehicles' or tank 'as in oil drums or more, filled up with fuel or not filled with fuel but still bulky' .. you chose to think the vehicle .. not me .. thanks guys.

the question was HOW MANY ACTIONS it would take to hurl said object? ... nothing more ...

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:18 am

I'd say you have to expend at least 2 actions to do that. One to pick up the tank and the second one to throw it. I hope that helps!

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:13 am

I agree, 2 action at most.

Even if we are talking about like Supernatural PS 45
(Warlock Marine Armor), which can lift and throw a
small armored vehicle... Well, it doesn't take more
than a few secs - ie. 1 or two action.

Anything heavier, and you cannot throw it... Well, maybe
toss it over a ledge or something...

Adios
KLM

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:55 am

KLM wrote:I agree, 2 action at most.

Even if we are talking about like Supernatural PS 45
(Warlock Marine Armor), which can lift and throw a
small armored vehicle... Well, it doesn't take more
than a few secs - ie. 1 or two action.

Anything heavier, and you cannot throw it... Well, maybe
toss it over a ledge or something...

Adios
KLM

I think what Shiv-a was talking about was like a 'hammer-toss', y'know..for LONG distance.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:22 am

From HU GM's Guide, pg 55 under power lift and throw

Throwing Range: Double the norm

Cost: 4 melee attacks.

Saving Throw for Targeted Victims: Dodg at +2, because they can see the superbeing as he lifts, strains and looks or motions their way a second before he throws. Also it takes 4 - 6 seconds to lift and hurl the heavy object, leaving the character open to two attacks, without defencse, from any one opponent during that time! Or gives likely targets a chance to take cover or try to run out of range.

That's assuming they are right next to the boject they are tossing, might take some time to get to the object.

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:29 am

Thank you Jefffar

so nice to know that SOME people actually know what they're talking about.

thus it is MY contention that 4 actions to pick up a heavy object that takes a lot of strain to do, is actually acknowledged someplace.

so nice to know i'm not totally off my rocker yet ... i like my tottering chair to sit and knit in while thinking up questions to tickle the little grey cells of the youngin's :lol:

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:28 pm

rude? ... me?

not at all. just pointing out that Jefffar read the question and didn't make assuptmtions. it also hints that he read the other posts on the subject and then answered from a non-personal point of view to indicate that he's NOT interested in garnering any brownie points from the author.

yes, he's a friend ... and yes, he usually answers the questions if he knows the answer. the fact he states from a book [published PB material even] shows that he cared enough to actually take the time to research an answer.

for that, he gets my thank you.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:32 pm

Uh people, please be civil to each other.

You are welcome Shiiv-a.

Not many people pay attention to the super brawling rules in the HU GM Guide though, so that's probably nobody came up with that answer.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:35 pm

shiiv-a wrote:i believe that for a Juicer to grab a tank and then toss it at a target, it will take a minimum of 5 actions .. 3 of which you cannot defend against

1 - Juicer grabs the tank for tossing
2 - Juicer heaves and gets the leverage to get it off the ground
3 - Juicer gets it OFF the ground
4 - Juicer swings about to get momentum
5 - Juicer lets go and its on its way to target

according to the books a Juicer CAN [book legally] have the PS stat to do such a feat .. i DON'T run juicers so i have NO idea ..

actions 2, 3and 4 would leave the juicer open to attacks as he's currently involved in getting the heavy blocky item up off the ground and ready to throw and the getting the momentum to toss. that means that his defense rolls do NOT include any PP or skill enhancements .. and its his NATURAL stat or under on a d30

just my thoughts on the matter .. THAT is how 'reality' should enter a game .. what are YOUR thoughts on the subject?

These 3 are one action unless the "tank" or drum or whatever was moving then one action would be needed to "grab" it and a seperate one to lift.

These 2 unless said "tank" or drum or whatever is extreamly heavy would be one also.

So thats one to pick up said "tank" and one to throw it... 2 actions accomplish this easily.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:48 pm

Jefffar wrote:
Not many people pay attention to the super brawling rules in the HU GM Guide though, so that's probably nobody came up with that answer.

That, and its not canon for PW... unless the GM wants it to be.

In RIFTS a normal throw (of an object that is not already in ones graps and is not moving) would take only 2 actions regardless of its size.
1: Grab and lift
2: Toss

IF the character wants to go for farther distance, and IF the GM wants to use the HU rules then they could do the whole "hammer toss" thingy and spend 4 actions but it grants them a whopping double distance while their target gets 2 attacks of opportunity, a +2 bonus to dodge, or might even have time to simply get out of range.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:53 am

I'm sorry Shiiv-a I didn't realize you were talking aobut a power toss.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:52 am

Thinyser wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Not many people pay attention to the super brawling rules in the HU GM Guide though, so that's probably nobody came up with that answer.
That, and its not canon for PW... unless the GM wants it to be.

In RIFTS a normal throw (of an object that is not already in ones graps and is not moving) would take only 2 actions regardless of its size.
1: Grab and lift
2: Toss

IF the character wants to go for farther distance, and IF the GM wants to use the HU rules then they could do the whole "hammer toss" thingy and spend 4 actions but it grants them a whopping double distance while their target gets 2 attacks of opportunity, a +2 bonus to dodge, or might even have time to simply get out of range.

That's a lot of ifs for what is the closest official answer to the question as worded. Especially since it is a megaversal system so most rules should be able to port over and plug and play.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:46 am

Jefffar wrote:
Thinyser wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Not many people pay attention to the super brawling rules in the HU GM Guide though, so that's probably nobody came up with that answer.
That, and its not canon for PW... unless the GM wants it to be.

In RIFTS a normal throw (of an object that is not already in ones graps and is not moving) would take only 2 actions regardless of its size.
1: Grab and lift
2: Toss

IF the character wants to go for farther distance, and IF the GM wants to use the HU rules then they could do the whole "hammer toss" thingy and spend 4 actions but it grants them a whopping double distance while their target gets 2 attacks of opportunity, a +2 bonus to dodge, or might even have time to simply get out of range.

That's a lot of ifs for what is the closest official answer to the question as worded. Especially since it is a megaversal system so most rules should be able to port over and plug and play.

Question as worded was simply "What are your thoughts on the subject?".
Which says to me that he is looking for house rules.

Now, the OP has a bunch of mumbojumbo about leverage and swinging to get momentum but never says anything about wanting it to go double distance, so if one were to apply canon one should apply rules for rifts, the setting of phase world.

The closest official answer would be that Any regular throw (in any of the systems), takes 1 action (and a second action if you have to pick up the object). Now if the poster had specified they were attempting to get longer range throw one could add the information that a double distance throw isn't even an option in rifts... unless you port rules from another game, which is fine for those rare Rifts GM's that actually have the HUGMG and feel that the exsisting rule for rifts of 1 foot per point of SN PS needs to be changed.

BTW I thought that posting entire rules/abilities directly from the book was against the board rules?? Or is that not the rule any longer? :-?

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:06 pm

Also, there is a reason, why that cinematic manouver is
detailed in HU.

For games with much less heroism it is inappropriate.

Adios
KLM

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:02 pm

The description of the act the origional poster describes implies that they are trying to lift and throw an extremely massive object - one that the character will have to strain to throw.

The Power Throw rules in HU GM's guide are the most detailed description we have of a similar action.

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:46 pm

a couple of points for people to see and then think about

* i'm female, and probably your elder, so show me a bit of respect please.

* while this question is IN the Rifts genre forum. it is by NO means meant to be stuck in the Rifts genre.

* i don't care HOW strong you are. if you can bench press 500 pounds that is a total different set of muscles being used in a different way than a dead lift of a BULKY and MISSHAPENED object.
* the oil drum [ propane tank or oil storage tank or what have you] would be about say 6 feet long, about 14 feet tall, has a few pieces welded to the sides for about 6 or more people to move it and somewhere between 5-12 feet tall. some parts are cylindric some parts rectangular and that is the shape.
* rough weight of the item when empty would be about 500 pounds and about 1500 pounds when totally full. [with fluid not concrete]

so with THOSE dimensions and rough weight and other odd comments and such, how many actions would it take to get it up and then heave?

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:49 pm

Specifically Shiv-A had the Juicer perform a hammer throw which requires at least one additional action, spinning the object, there is one additional attack required to aim at what you are throwing at. That’s four attacks.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:06 am

Ok that makes sense! Cool!

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:40 am

shiiv-a wrote:a couple of points for people to see and then think about

* i'm female, and probably your elder, so show me a bit of respect please.

People, male or female, EARN respect from me, they don't just get it for being born before me.

* while this question is IN the Rifts genre forum. it is by NO means meant to be stuck in the Rifts genre.

Then put it here, its the appropriate forum for general rules questions

* i don't care HOW strong you are. if you can bench press 500 pounds that is a total different set of muscles being used in a different way than a dead lift of a BULKY and MISSHAPENED object.

Irrelevent to the question at hand.

* the oil drum [ propane tank or oil storage tank or what have you] would be about say 6 feet long, about 14 feet tall, has a few pieces welded to the sides for about 6 or more people to move it and somewhere between 5-12 feet tall. some parts are cylindric some parts rectangular and that is the shape.

Um so its 6 feet in diameter? and its 5-12 and 14 feet tall???

Assuming that it is 6 feet in diameter and 14 feet tall it would have a volume of Pi x R^2 x H so thats 3.14 x 3^2 (which is 9) x 14 = 395.64 cubic feet or 2,959.59 gallons of liquid.

* rough weight of the item when empty would be about 500 pounds and about 1500 pounds when totally full. [with fluid not concrete]

You totally need to redo these numbers as there is no way that a tank that holds nearly 3000 gallons of liquid is gonna weigh 500 pounds empty and only 1000 more when full. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon thats nearly 24,000 pounds of liquid in said 6' diam x 14' tall tank.

so with THOSE dimensions and rough weight and other odd comments and such, how many actions would it take to get it up and then heave?

2...

IF you had the strength to do it (and juicers don't) its still only 2 actions despite its extreame weight one to pick it up and one to toss it...

Now IF you wanted to thow it twice as far as normally allowed by the rules for heavy items tosses you could add two actions of spinning as per the HU rule bringing it to 4.

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If you wanted a barrel that holds about 1000 pounds of liquid (Of about the same density as water) it would have to hold about 125 gallons, this is 16.71 cubic feet of volume, which is a cylinder about 2 feet diameter and 5.25 feet tall. If made of steel a barrel of this size could easily weigh 500 pounds depending on its wall thickness. AND a juicer could potentially lift and throw this depending on how you interpret the "Can lift and carry four times more than a normal person of equivalent strength" statement in the juicer writeup.

A normal, ie unaugmented, person with strenght of 22 (minimum for a juicer) can carry/throw 440 pounds 4 inches per PS point or 88 inches (thats 7'4") assuming that the juicer can also throw what he can carry he should be able to carry/throw a 1760 pound object either the same 7'4" (or possibly 4 times farther [29'4"], but that is more than the 1 foot per PS point that is given to critters with supernatural PS, so i would stick with the normal 4" per PS point)

shiiv-a · Unread post by **shiiv-a** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:30 pm

well ... its not important now.
i already have my answer.
its also showing me that its better to NOT ask questions on here.
safer in the long run to be considered mentally inept

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:31 pm

shiiv-a wrote:well ... its not important now.

It never really was, but it was somthing I was trying to take seriously anyway.

i already have my answer.

You had your answer the entire time, you were asking what we thought.

its also showing me that its better to NOT ask questions on here.
safer in the long run to be considered mentally inept

Don't ask questions you don't wan't answered differently than what you already have you mind made up is correct.

Nobody here is calling you mentally inept, we are (or at least I am) here to help answer the questions to the best of our (my) ability. Sometimes this means correcting flaws with the premis.

When I see major discrepancies in your description of the size and weight of the tank I feel it is necessary to point it out because if I were a player and my GM allows a juicer to not only pick up a container that should weigh about 12 TONS but also toss it, its gonna break the verasimiltude of the moment.

I did the math because I was curious as to the rough size that a barrel filled with water would have to be to weigh in at 1500 pounds and thought this might be helpfull for your game.

However, you now have my word that I will never again do my best to help answer your questions, in fact I will never respond to them at all.

KLM · Unread post by **KLM** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:32 pm

shiiv-a wrote:a couple of points for people to see and then think about

* i'm female, and probably your elder, so show me a bit of respect please.

We ARE courteuos and gentle with you madam. Especially,
with you.

However, on the 'net we are talking to a "nick" - and since
we all are more-less anonymous, referring to someones
age or gender might result in unpleasant suprises.

We can only judge from the information You leaked to us,
and from you ideas and questions I quessed that You are
someone relatively new to RPGs (which is actually good).

* while this question is IN the Rifts genre forum. it is by NO means meant to be stuck in the Rifts genre.

With all respect, how would we know it? The only
snippet we could rely on, was mentioning a Juicer.

You are frankly lacking details in your questions,
and then blame us about the "lacking" answers.

All in all: stop acting like a drama queen. People
here - including myself (suprise

) - are good
meaning, intelligent and posess a rather precious
expertise on RIFTS.

All I saw in these forums, even the most insulting
flame wars are come from a single reason: to reach
"the" perfect RPG experience.

Adios
KLM

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