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What does a person look like that has cast a 4D transformation spell? While they are in the 3D world? Do they appear normal or do they have a ghostly appearance or something else, not really any detail on it. Also when do the insanity penalities take effect? (I believe it is after the spell has run its course and ellapsed)

Lukterran wrote:What does a person look like that has cast a 4D transformation spell? While they are in the 3D world? Do they appear normal or do they have a ghostly appearance or something else, not really any detail on it.

Because there's no visible effect. There's a change, but sinse people can't see the fourth dimenison they only see the three dimenisonal part.

Also when do the insanity penalities take effect? (I believe it is after the spell has run its course and ellapsed)

It says that plainly. as soon as they return to a 3d being.

Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

all the bonuses none of the minuses

Ah, but what beings exist in the 4d world that the permanemtly 4d character now has to deal with alone for the most part?

demos606 wrote:Ah, but what beings exist in the 4d world that the permanemtly 4d character now has to deal with alone for the most part?

Second Stage Promethaians and Zurvan, I beleive.

Scrud wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

all the bonuses none of the minuses

q.v. Transference, the 8th level Earth Warlock spell.

The human mind isn't meant to be in a 4D state. Being in it drives one mad. Making it permanent will eventually send you completely starkers.

Mark Hall wrote:

Scrud wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

all the bonuses none of the minuses

q.v. Transference, the 8th level Earth Warlock spell.

The human mind isn't meant to be in a 4D state. Being in it drives one mad. Making it permanent will eventually send you completely starkers.

Actually, it says pretty clearly it's the sudden shock of NO LONGER being 4d that causes it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Scrud wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

all the bonuses none of the minuses

q.v. Transference, the 8th level Earth Warlock spell.

The human mind isn't meant to be in a 4D state. Being in it drives one mad. Making it permanent will eventually send you completely starkers.

Actually, it says pretty clearly it's the sudden shock of NO LONGER being 4d that causes it.

And how long does it last normally? What's it like when it goes on ten times as long? A hundred times as long? A thousand? A million?

Think of it like a peyote vision quest... occasionally, in small doses, it can lead to insight, but also to long-term damage (i.e. a chance of insanity with each use). However, if you were stuck in it permanently, you WOULD go insane, and you would go more insane the longer you were stuck there.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Scrud wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Ok, I was just checking because I was thinking about having a character have spell permanently cast on them using the Permancy Ward.

Thus they shouldn't suffer from the normal insanity table as per the 4D transformation spell, since they would not be changing back to a 3D being.

Pretty much

all the bonuses none of the minuses

q.v. Transference, the 8th level Earth Warlock spell.

The human mind isn't meant to be in a 4D state. Being in it drives one mad. Making it permanent will eventually send you completely starkers.

Actually, it says pretty clearly it's the sudden shock of NO LONGER being 4d that causes it.

And how long does it last normally? What's it like when it goes on ten times as long? A hundred times as long? A thousand? A million?

Think of it like a peyote vision quest... occasionally, in small doses, it can lead to insight, but also to long-term damage (i.e. a chance of insanity with each use). However, if you were stuck in it permanently, you WOULD go insane, and you would go more insane the longer you were stuck there.

I fail to see any logic for the comparison.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I fail to see any logic for the comparison.

Yea, i agree. It's coming out of 4D that drives you insane. If you stayed in 4D for 200 million years, then came out of it, then you would go insane, same as if you were in 4D for just a few minutes. No matter how long you stayed in 4D, you would not go insane.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:And how long does it last normally? What's it like when it goes on ten times as long? A hundred times as long? A thousand? A million?

Think of it like a peyote vision quest... occasionally, in small doses, it can lead to insight, but also to long-term damage (i.e. a chance of insanity with each use). However, if you were stuck in it permanently, you WOULD go insane, and you would go more insane the longer you were stuck there.

I fail to see any logic for the comparison.

I'll look at the spell when I get home, but I see the logic fairly clearly; the human mind works around a certain set of perceptions. Going too far beyond that, for too long, can cause problems.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:And how long does it last normally? What's it like when it goes on ten times as long? A hundred times as long? A thousand? A million?

Think of it like a peyote vision quest... occasionally, in small doses, it can lead to insight, but also to long-term damage (i.e. a chance of insanity with each use). However, if you were stuck in it permanently, you WOULD go insane, and you would go more insane the longer you were stuck there.

I fail to see any logic for the comparison.

I'll look at the spell when I get home, but I see the logic fairly clearly; the human mind works around a certain set of perceptions. Going too far beyond that, for too long, can cause problems.

so what about

Mark Hall wrote:It's not realism. It's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the framework of the game world.

Sorry to quote your own signature but you seem to be bringing realism into a game, in a way that cannot be expressed by the given rules of that game. Canon is that you do not gain any type of insanities till you leave the 4-D state.

Scrud wrote:so what about

Mark Hall wrote:It's not realism. It's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the framework of the game world.

Sorry to quote your own signature but you seem to be bringing realism into a game, in a way that cannot be expressed by the given rules of that game. Canon is that you do not gain any type of insanities till you leave the 4-D state.

I don't see any conflict here. As I say, it's about verisimilitude... about seeming to be true. It's not about adhering to the rules simply because they're written that way, but rather applying them in a way that produces a result that makes sense.

To me, it makes sense that someone whose body is transformed into a radically different state, with radically different senses, for a long period of time, will have difficulty adjusting. I've provided an example (Transference of Essence and Intellect, the 8th level Earth Warlock spell) of something similar happening. While the spell, as written, has it only incurring insanity at the end of the duration, the spell, as written, also envisions the duration as finite. Therefore, my ruling would be that someone doing this would wind up slowly going mad... or, eventually, getting used to it.

The spell isn't written any different in BoM than it is in Rifts:England. Its the description that makes it clear the side-effects occur when the spell wears off, not them coming out and saying "Side effects when spell wears off". It'd be pretty hard to feel like a golfish taken from an infinite ocean and being stuck in a tiny empty goldfish bowl (the stated cause of the side effects) if you're still in an infinite ocean.

FWIW, this'd be my take on it. I agree a normal 3-D mind isn't designed to handle 4-D input. I, however, would take it further: 3-D minds aren't designed for handling 4-D input for any length of time and trying to handle it would instantly drive them bonkers. The only thing stopping this is the magic of the spell, which changes the nature of the mind allowing it to function on a 4-D level. The magic, however, isn't designed to transition your mind back down to its normal state (it'd take a pretty interesting magic to protect your mind from its normal state), thus the shift down to 3-D is traumatic.
Which in the end means I agree that long as you stay 4-D, you're fine, even if its for 100 million years.

Semisonic9 wrote:I'm on page 250 of the BoM. Under Possible Permanent Side Effects it says nothing of the kind.

I've re-read it several times, and cannot find any passage that specify the insanity is only a result of the spell ending, rather than the total experience. If I've missed something, please let me know.

Just read it, myself, and I am seeing the problem.

First of all, the line "The world seems to be a very different, much smaller, more limited place. The character feels like a goldfish suddenly scooped out of an infinite ocean teeming with life and stuck into a tiny, empty goldfish bowl." That's supposed to be taken in context of the spell ending; I see that as pretty clear.

However, my insistence that a permanent 4-D Transformation would result in insanity is not that they would be constantly rolling the charts associated with the spell; rather, that they would gain other insanities, related to the fact that they've undergone a "powerful and disorienting metamorphosis".

Mark Hall wrote:

Semisonic9 wrote:I'm on page 250 of the BoM. Under Possible Permanent Side Effects it says nothing of the kind.

I've re-read it several times, and cannot find any passage that specify the insanity is only a result of the spell ending, rather than the total experience. If I've missed something, please let me know.

Just read it, myself, and I am seeing the problem.

First of all, the line "The world seems to be a very different, much smaller, more limited place. The character feels like a goldfish suddenly scooped out of an infinite ocean teeming with life and stuck into a tiny, empty goldfish bowl." That's supposed to be taken in context of the spell ending; I see that as pretty clear.

However, my insistence that a permanent 4-D Transformation would result in insanity is not that they would be constantly rolling the charts associated with the spell; rather, that they would gain other insanities, related to the fact that they've undergone a "powerful and disorienting metamorphosis".

I think your underestimating the human mind. not to mention possible defences built into the spell itself aginst this kind of thing.



Besides, palladium needs more coherent insanity rules.



"So....I got my arms ripped off by a demon, and now i'm a kleptomaniac? what the hell..."

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think your underestimating the human mind. not to mention possible defences built into the spell itself aginst this kind of thing.

Maybe. But I think it makes enough sense that it works for me.

Besides, palladium needs more coherent insanity rules.

"So....I got my arms ripped off by a demon, and now i'm a kleptomaniac? what the hell..."

I've never been a big fan of random-roll insanity; and I've often wondered if these "You get an insanity" results are supposed to allow for a save vs. insanity.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The spell isn't written any different in BoM than it is in Rifts:England. Its the description that makes it clear the side-effects occur when the spell wears off, not them coming out and saying "Side effects when spell wears off". It'd be pretty hard to feel like a golfish taken from an infinite ocean and being stuck in a tiny empty goldfish bowl (the stated cause of the side effects) if you're still in an infinite ocean.

FWIW, this'd be my take on it. I agree a normal 3-D mind isn't designed to handle 4-D input. I, however, would take it further: 3-D minds aren't designed for handling 4-D input for any length of time and trying to handle it would instantly drive them bonkers. The only thing stopping this is the magic of the spell, which changes the nature of the mind allowing it to function on a 4-D level. The magic, however, isn't designed to transition your mind back down to its normal state (it'd take a pretty interesting magic to protect your mind from its normal state), thus the shift down to 3-D is traumatic.
Which in the end means I agree that long as you stay 4-D, you're fine, even if its for 100 million years.

I agree with this. I'm just kinda casting my vote on this side of the debate.