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General_Sarkoff wrote:The only conclusion I can draw from the latest murmur is that Palladium has, at least unofficially, dropped BTS altogether.

Link: viewtopic.php?t=74801

Because KS didn't mention it? I don't think that means anything at all other than the fact that there isn't anything in the works at the moment. That, by itself, does not mean they have dropped BTS.

That must mean that Palladium has unofficially dropped several books because they weren't mentioned in one Murmur.

Despite the fact that those books are being worked on, including books for BTS.

But I guess because they weren't mentioned in a Murmur that it means Palladium is dropping them.

A recent Murmur didn't mention any books. That must mean that Palladium has stopped making books altogether. Right?

~Josh

General_Sarkoff wrote:

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:That must mean that Palladium has unofficially dropped several books because they weren't mentioned in one Murmur.

Despite the fact that those books are being worked on, including books for BTS.

But I guess because they weren't mentioned in a Murmur that it means Palladium is dropping them.

A recent Murmur didn't mention any books. That must mean that Palladium has stopped making books altogether. Right?

~Josh

It means don't tell me that money is the reason you aren't putting out BTS2 books and then turn around and tell me that you are releaseing an all art book that you had to pay for up front and oh yeah, they tend not to sell well but we're hoping this one does.

Well, I won't argue your sentiments about the art book because frankly, I agree with you.

On the other issue I know Maryann has more of an inside track than most of us but I wouldn't count BTS down and out for good yet.

I tend to agree with the folks complaining, somewhat.

When they purchased the book, they were promised two other books in short order. Two books that were mostly already written. These books were not delivered.

I know Palladium is hurting for money, and I completely sympathise. I own BtS2, and can wait for the sourcebooks. But thats because I'm playing different roleplaying games right now. I wont mention them because they aren't Palladium's. And I would rather have the new Robotech RPG than the two books for BtS, but that's because its what I prefer.

However, if someone is new to Palladium and BtS2 was their first purchase, or BtS is the only Palladium line they care about, they have a right to be upset. They are a customer that was promised something and it wasnt delivered. Being snarky with them isn't going to help matters.
Remember that they did shell out their money for a complete roleplaying game that they don't feel is complete.

MikeM

AFAIK, no one ever said that the gripe was not legitimate.

Rather, it seems that people are just annoyed that there are half a dozen topics on this (when one would suffice), and that certain posters are now posting on other threads with the gripe.

~Josh

I just reread the post twice. Are you guys getting upset at people in this post or in general? I am a little confused.

General says it is gone because it is not in Murmur.

I say that doesn't mean anything.

General provides a link to second page where Maryann speaks.

Josh says that doesn't mean anything.

General comments on money being spent on art books and not on a game line.

SightblinderX gives the stock response. Maybe someone misunderstood his post but I got the impression he was expressing his dissatisfaction as well.

I agree with General about the art book. I admit Maryann knows more than most of us but I suggest not counting the game down and out. I was thinking in terms of, "There is hope!"

Duck-Foot replies in agreement with SightblinderX's sentiment.

MikeM points out the promised books and dissatisfaction with that. Comments on people being snarky with upset customers but honestly, up to this point I didn't see anyone being snarky. Mostly I saw everyone agreeing that the books need to come out and tossing out the usual stuff we hear about why it isn't.

Thibor vents. Only thing I can say to that is personally I didn't think you were a moron. You're an angry customer.

Josh tries to calm Thibor down and points out why people might be acting the way they are.

General points out his feelings on being ignored.

Thibor seconds.

SightblinderX once again expresses his dissatisfaction.

***

I saw a lot of anger there and I think it was a bit misdirected. Getting half (or 1/3 in this case if I understand correctly) a product sucks, no doubt. The way I read this thread we are all on the same side of this discussion mostly and there is not reason to yell at each other. Don't fight your friends, fight your enemies.



I won't be buying the art book myself. We get great art in the regular books. Why would I spend money on art that doesn't come with well written setting material and crunchy mechanics? I know Palladium is still in trouble but I think an art book was the wrong way to go. Art books don't do well. KS says, "But this is a Palladium art book!" Palladium has great art but then again, so did every other company who put out art books. They didn't fill them with horrible pictures, they put phenomenal art in them. Art books don't sell well. The money should have been spent developing a different product, like the BTS books, for example. I am no business expert. That is just my two cents.

Kevin wrote:
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks:
Tome Grotesque™ and Beyond Arcanum™ are not forgotten

Kevin Siembieda here. I’ve become aware that some of you are concerned that Beyond the Supernatural™ has been “dropped” because it is NOT on any of the release lists. Fear not, I am as devoted to BTS-2 as ever. I just want to be realistic and don’t want to get your hopes up by posting a tentative release date.

The problem with BTS sourcebooks and a few other titles is that they are BIG and rules/game system heavy. That means they take an extra long time to produce. While a fast pace of writing is 2-3 pages an hour, and an average page rate is one per hour, stat blocks take 2-3 hours per single page, and sometimes a particular rule or game mechanic that is one stinking paragraph can take days, even weeks, to work out, then write. Consequently, my plan is to secretly work on them here and there and when one or both are “truly” near completion, then add them to the release list. The same problem and plan is in place for Mechanoids® Space™.

Yeah you're right Sarkoff, definitely dropped.


Change the record...

Some of us are playing BTS fine and having a blast.

Patience is a virtue.

Thibor wrote:

sHaka wrote:

Kevin wrote:
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks:
Tome Grotesque™ and Beyond Arcanum™ are not forgotten

Kevin Siembieda here. I’ve become aware that some of you are concerned that Beyond the Supernatural™ has been “dropped” because it is NOT on any of the release lists. Fear not, I am as devoted to BTS-2 as ever. I just want to be realistic and don’t want to get your hopes up by posting a tentative release date.

The problem with BTS sourcebooks and a few other titles is that they are BIG and rules/game system heavy. That means they take an extra long time to produce. While a fast pace of writing is 2-3 pages an hour, and an average page rate is one per hour, stat blocks take 2-3 hours per single page, and sometimes a particular rule or game mechanic that is one stinking paragraph can take days, even weeks, to work out, then write. Consequently, my plan is to secretly work on them here and there and when one or both are “truly” near completion, then add them to the release list. The same problem and plan is in place for Mechanoids® Space™.

Yeah you're right Sarkoff, definitely dropped.


Change the record...

Some of us are playing BTS fine and having a blast.

Patience is a virtue.

And this is exactly the attitude I'm refering to. Shaka, I'm glad you are satisfied with an incomplete product. Good for you. I have a higher standard for how my hard earned dollars are spent. And Kevin's quote amounts to being dropped. He'll be working on it in secret when he gets time, and we all know how much free time KS has. How long have we been waiting on Mechanoids? Be careful, falling off that high horse might hurt.

BTS is of a high standard - when I bought it I had my eyes open - It's exactly because Palladium rarely hits it's release schedule I didn't bank on the two supplements being released when stated.

Out of interest, and this is a sincere question, have you run any BTS-2 games yet?

General_Sarkoff wrote:

sHaka wrote:

Kevin wrote:
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks:
Tome Grotesque™ and Beyond Arcanum™ are not forgotten

Kevin Siembieda here. I’ve become aware that some of you are concerned that Beyond the Supernatural™ has been “dropped” because it is NOT on any of the release lists. Fear not, I am as devoted to BTS-2 as ever. I just want to be realistic and don’t want to get your hopes up by posting a tentative release date.

The problem with BTS sourcebooks and a few other titles is that they are BIG and rules/game system heavy. That means they take an extra long time to produce. While a fast pace of writing is 2-3 pages an hour, and an average page rate is one per hour, stat blocks take 2-3 hours per single page, and sometimes a particular rule or game mechanic that is one stinking paragraph can take days, even weeks, to work out, then write. Consequently, my plan is to secretly work on them here and there and when one or both are “truly” near completion, then add them to the release list. The same problem and plan is in place for Mechanoids® Space™.

Yeah you're right Sarkoff, definitely dropped.


Change the record...

Some of us are playing BTS fine and having a blast.

Patience is a virtue.

I've been patient. The above from Kevin is in direct contrast to his "almost ready" statements when BTS2 was first released. Either he wasn't telling the truth then or he isn't now. Either way I will restate that I either want at least Arcanum NOW or I want my $24.95 plus tax back. So far I haven't gotten either.

No it is not.

"Almost ready" for Kevin can mean a quarter of the book or more.

He is a fast writer, but that means nat if he doesn't have time to write.

~ Josh

While I would like to see the BTS2 supplements, and like many I am disappointed by the fact they have not yet been released. But until these books are released I will just convert stuff from other PB settings for use in BTS2. In fact we have seen some of these conversions in Rifter articles.

Sorry Mastermind, I was referring to people being snarky in other threads. Mostly in the "All Things Palladium" section of these boards.

I'm not angry myself about BtS2. It was really fun to read. Thats why I read most of the Palladium books. They are a blast to read. When I do run or play roleplaying games I tend to use something other than Palladium books, but I still like purchasing and reading Palladium books.

I just sympathise with those folks who feel ripped off and think they have a valid point is all.

Make sense?

MikeM

MASTERMIND wrote:I won't be buying the art book myself. We get great art in the regular books. Why would I spend money on art that doesn't come with well written setting material and crunchy mechanics? I know Palladium is still in trouble but I think an art book was the wrong way to go. Art books don't do well. KS says, "But this is a Palladium art book!" Palladium has great art but then again, so did every other company who put out art books. They didn't fill them with horrible pictures, they put phenomenal art in them. Art books don't sell well. The money should have been spent developing a different product, like the BTS books, for example. I am no business expert. That is just my two cents.

Me neither with the possible exception of Machinations of Doom since some of the Rifters that carried the strip are out of print. I have to say that sometimes I find Kevin's line of thinking peculiar. This book is a gamble and you know it's a gamble yet somehow by it being a PB art book it's going to do better where others have failed.

Mind you that type of thinking is not limited to KS. My company recently uprgraded their computers to handle a new inventory system with a type of software not that many people use. Even though we had one that worked perfectly. They were told by some who used the software that it creates more problems rather than solving them. Their response " Those other companies are not Chapters it's going to be different". Reminds me of the same thing.

Like I said in another thread with all the Rifts titles being released and with all the other stuff they have to work on like Warpath and Robotech don't expect these books to come out before 2010 at the earliest.

I myself love BTS-2 and have run several games. I use Monsters and Animals, Nightbane, and Dark Coversions along with Dragons and Deities for my games.

Do I want the supplements out asap? Heck yeah!

Do i understand the whole money issue? yes

Do I feel a little cheated about buying an incomplete book? Yes

But, I am a patient person (since there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do).

Although, I think that the whole "Art Book" thing is a big mistake. Games Workshop released one for 40K and I still see tons of copies sitting on shelves collecting dust. Same with the Dragonlance art book.

I would rather see the money put some where else. But I don't run the company. I do wish the best of luck to Kevin, so that the book sells well.

I myself have never and probably will never buy an art book based on an RPG. If I can't use it in my games or read it for entertainment I don't want it.

Just my stand on the situation .

Chuck