Is magic in rifts weak?

[Ravenwing]

This has come up often enough in several threads, that I thought I would ask others what they think. Is magic to weak in Rifts? Is it trivial even compared to tech? IMHO it is, a D&D wizard could completely decimate a rifts one. Even if his spells are limited, when you look at the two side by side. Assuming that the Wizard could inflict md, and that isn't that far of a stretch. I also fail to see how magic can compete with magic, often it seems that tech can do things faster, cheaper, and far easier then magic. Now I admit there are ofcoarse exceptions to this. What could be done to improve magic in rifts? Does it need improvement ? For sake of argument we will exclude Techno-wizardry, only because it relies on tech as it's basis. All else is open for consideration.

[Chuck McDaniel]

No, I don't think it is weak.

Considering that the LLW has, theoretically , an unlimited spell casting ability when on a ley line and increased ranged and damage and even more so at a nexus. The D&D wizard on the other hand has an amount of spells dependent on his/her level.

Rifts really has no casting time like D&D has. so an Energy Bolt can be cast right away, where as a d&d wizard would have to go through the whole casting time to get a fireball off.

Rifts also offers better protective spells ( Armor of Ithan, Magic Shield, among others) and also healing spells.

So, IMHO a LLW could lay waste to a d&d wizard.

Chuck

[Chuck Lang]

The thing that makes Rifts magic more powerful is the many interpretations of the effects of the spell the player can conceive. This is partially in jest, but there is an iota of truth here as well.

[rat_bastard]

If you think magic in rifts (or any other palladium game) is weak you do not understand the magic rules.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you think magic in rifts (or any other palladium game) is weak you do not understand the magic rules.

I agree with the Rodent. Magic isn't weak. It just requires creative thinking.

If you're looking for something to point and shoot and obliterate the oppisition, magic might not be for you. Here's a plasma rifle.

Magic takes an imaginative and creative mind to use effectively (( which is kinda IMPLIED in the OOCs and such)).


That being said. I dont often play magic users. I prefer mercs and the like... but I don't think Magic's weak. I've USED magic aginst my Player group to show them just how effective it is.

[Talavar]

Does magic really lose to tech in damage output? I'd question that. Elemental magic has some grand-daddy damaging spells, like River of Lava which is 2d6x10 per round to everything in a huge area, Tornado (4d6x10 per round for several rounds, with another 2d6x10 at the end, also to a group of enemies), and earthquake, which can mess things up. Ley Line walkers can get treats like spinning blades, which can strike for 2d6 per level, and of course, the king of direct damage spells, Annihilate, with 2d4x100 MD to an area. Ouch.

As to the questions of saves, well, +to spell strength aren't that hard to come by, and some spells do have negatives to save.

I'm no expert on D&D magic, so I can't speak to it being more or less powerful than Rifts magic, but Rifts magic definitely isn't weak.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic in Rifts isn't weak.
Nothing that inflicts Mega-Damage is weak.

But it's not as powerful as it should be.
The Damage is good, sometimes too powerful, in fact.
It's the rest that isn't as powerful as it should be.

The basic theory is/was that the ley lines on Rifts Earth are so powerful that magic magic spells were increased 100-fold.
That's why a spell that normally does 1d6 SDC damage now does 1d6 Mega-Damage.
That's why Armor of Ithan creates mega-damage armor, instead of SDC armor.

So why do all the spells have the exact same duration and range?
Why doesn't Armor of Ithan last all day?
Why can't you cast a firebolt with a range of 10,000' + 500' per level, instead of 100' + 5' per level?
Or at least 1000' range, +50' per level?
Why does it take the same 2d6 rounds to escape from Carpet of Adhesion that it does on a low-magic world? Why does the CoA cover the exact same area that it does on a low-magic world?

That's the stuff that doesn't make sense.

[Sureshot]

I'm going to be one of the dissenting voices here and say that magic is weak. Versatile yes but weak nonetheless. The range is poor compared to weapons. An old man comatose in his bed has a good chance of saving against it and unlike Psionics which have good anti-tech spells such as Negate Mechanics (I think it's called that) is a big joke. Add to that you can't wear certain types of armour and a kid with a bag of rocks can prevent you casting a spell because as soon as you take 1 point of damage your spell fails to go off. At least the D&D mage now has the ability to cast magic if he makes a save against damage. The guy with the gun can still fire if he takes damage, the psionic guy can still manifest his abilites if he takes damage. So in conclusion they are weak by virute of the system penalizing the hell out of them.

At least imo. Every Rifts game I have been in as a palyer I'm nearly always taking a magic OCC because no one and i mean no one wants to play a magic oriented class because of all the reasons I listed above.

[Sureshot]

Magic in Rifts isn't weak.
Nothing that inflicts Mega-Damage is weak.

But it's not as powerful as it should be.
The Damage is good, sometimes too powerful, in fact.
It's the rest that isn't as powerful as it should be.

The basic theory is/was that the ley lines on Rifts Earth are so powerful that magic magic spells were increased 100-fold.
That's why a spell that normally does 1d6 SDC damage now does 1d6 Mega-Damage.
That's why Armor of Ithan creates mega-damage armor, instead of SDC armor.

So why do all the spells have the exact same duration and range?
Why doesn't Armor of Ithan last all day?
Why can't you cast a firebolt with a range of 10,000' + 500' per level, instead of 100' + 5' per level?
Or at least 1000' range, +50' per level?
Why does it take the same 2d6 rounds to escape from Carpet of Adhesion that it does on a low-magic world? Why does the CoA cover the exact same area that it does on a low-magic world?

That's the stuff that doesn't make sense.

Well said KC and seconded.

[Ravenwing]

Add to that you can't wear certain types of armour and a kid with a bag of rocks can prevent you casting a spell because as soon as you take 1 point of damage your spell fails to go off. At least the D&D mage now has the ability to cast magic if he makes a save against damage. The guy with the gun can still fire if he takes damage, the psionic guy can still manifest his abilites if he takes damage. So in conclusion they are weak by virute of the system penalizing the hell out of them.

Spell levels 1-5 can be cast with no problem, even under pressed attack. It's the "combat" magic. And, to be honest, if you can't find something in spell levels 1-5 to get your a$$ away from a few opponents, you're not trying hard enough.

There's also TW and magic weapons, minions, and other player characters to help you out. Most magic characters will have quite a few "little toys" on them to help 'em out, especially as they go up in level. Talisman is great for this purpose, as are many of the TW weapons and some of the spells. Likewise, some of the better attack spells can be essentially fire-and-forget. Once you cast Lightning Arc, Throwing stones, or Sorcerous Fury you can do damage with each attack over the duration of the spell . You can cast multiple Fire-globes several weeks in advance and keep them around for a rainy day. Worst case, cast Blind or Carpet of Adhesion and back up 5 steps, then cast away. What's the problem? Do your mages have an IQ of 4 or something?

On another topic, one thing that always annoyed me about fantasy genres was loading every character down with magic items and then wondering what the point of playing a mage was. EU limits non-mages to in how many magic items they can use, which is a nice house rule, imo. I think if you allow too much of that kind of stuff in a game, you can certainly get to wondering why you need mages at all.

~Semi

Good point Semi, but for this thread we aren't including Techno-wizardary. For the reasons I listed previously.

[Ravenwing]

Magic in Rifts isn't weak.
Nothing that inflicts Mega-Damage is weak.

But it's not as powerful as it should be.
The Damage is good, sometimes too powerful, in fact.
It's the rest that isn't as powerful as it should be.

The basic theory is/was that the ley lines on Rifts Earth are so powerful that magic magic spells were increased 100-fold.
That's why a spell that normally does 1d6 SDC damage now does 1d6 Mega-Damage.
That's why Armor of Ithan creates mega-damage armor, instead of SDC armor.

So why do all the spells have the exact same duration and range?
Why doesn't Armor of Ithan last all day?
Why can't you cast a firebolt with a range of 10,000' + 500' per level, instead of 100' + 5' per level?
Or at least 1000' range, +50' per level?
Why does it take the same 2d6 rounds to escape from Carpet of Adhesion that it does on a low-magic world? Why does the CoA cover the exact same area that it does on a low-magic world?

That's the stuff that doesn't make sense.

I also agree. I may have been unclear in my org post, but it seems magic needs a revamp in rifts. If only to bring it inline with what the orig ideal for it in rifts was.

[Ahulane]

It just depends really, though there is a scale. Tech is easily more powerful than magic early on in versitilty, offensive power and defensive capabilities. Magic however doesn't really start to equal Tech in those fields until around 10th level which is what sucks.

Laser Rifle does 6d6 MD and has a 2000 ft range and only requires you have the WP to use it effectivly, targets you fire at are -10 to dodge and can't parry unless their really really really good. Magic spells like Call Lightning where the target can't resist or dodge and just takes 1d6 MD/level with 100 ft range/level only catches up in damage at 6th level and won't get the range until 20th. Another drawback to magic is the fact that if you can't wear metal armor without it interfering with your casting, also if you take damage while casting, hands get tied, mouth is covered or just can't talk plus a slew of other things will severly limit your abilites where tech only has to worry about running out of ammo, his armor breaks and he's not well prepared for situational encounters, though the same thing could be said about magic but their abilites get severly hindered if they rely solely on magic.

Its all really situational, Magic can win easy 1v1 if in an arena and the caster has the initiative over the pure tech user...maybe, because there are all sorts of things both sides can do. My opinion would be that magic is weak unless your mid to high level where tech is strong all the time. Psionics would be in the same boat as magic imo but again its all just situational as to how powerful things are.

[Toc Rat]

I'm a very new GM and I've only been playing Rifts for about 4 months

I do think magic is weak, not the spells themselves, but more that it gets too easy to save against. I realized that early when I created an NPC to challenge my players and I had a save vs Magic of 1.

So I came up with some new rules to add to the Magic System which makes it way more deadly....as it should be!

I know that Magic Users get bonuses for spell strength when they go up levels already in the system but I think it's too little.

I give two types of bonuses; one for the level of the character and another for the level of spell.

So a Lvl 1 spell cast by a Lvl 5 Magic User is way more powerful than a Lvl 1 Magic User casting the same spell. (Lvl 5 Magic User gets a +5 while the Lvl1 only gets a +1), then you add the second bonus which is that a Lvl 5 spell is more powerful than a Lvl 1. Starting at Lvl4 I give an additional +1 bonus per level.

This makes Magic deadly, which is the way I like it. My players are high-powered gamers and they like to collect big guns that do lots of damage. I like to use Magic to ruin their day. Favorite spell to use against them....House of Glass...they really hate that one.

I too believe that the save Vs Magic rules need work. As they stand now, it is unlikely that any spell that CAN be saved against WONT be. I like your idea for house ruling it. I will incorperate something like that in my games.

[Toc Rat]

Have you read my "Civilized exchange of views" thread? In there I deal with the Magic Vs Tech argument.

The magic system in and of itself, isn't all that weak. It is better to say that Tech is so much stronger.

In most cases, anything Magic can do, Tech can do, only faster, cheaper and more of it. To be sure, there are things that Magic can do that as of yet Tech has not been able to do. The best example of this would be the Resurection class of spells.

With the new rules in RUE, things equalized somewhat between Magic and Tech with regards to casting times Vs aiming times. However I did not like the changes to the aiming times, I would have like to seen only a change done with the Magic system.

[Chuck McDaniel]

Toc Rat Wrote

In most cases, anything Magic can do, Tech can do, only faster, cheaper and more of it.

This is true as we all saw in SoT. The CS was able to defeat the Tolkeinites due to numbers and the fact that it took far less time to aim an E-weapon and pull the trigger several times. Also you had the hordes of Skelebots that where pumped into service by the thousands.

A CS grunt takes far less time to train and equip tech with than it does to train a wizard and give him spells.

I believe that, one-on-one, magic and tech are pretty equal, but when you throw numbers behind the tech magic loses it's equality, as it where, with tech.

Chuck

[Incriptus]

I would say yes . . . maybe not 'weak' but 'weaker' . . . I guess the very fact that we feel the need to debate it means there must be some truth to the argument.

I guess if I felt the need to parse words I would say that technology is far more explosive than magic. If you want technology to have more effect just make more of it. Magic's not like that it's like art, it's more about having the right amount of [something] than just having more of [something].

Now on the other hand magic does have more options, you can simply do things with magic you can not do with technology. Even with simple things there is a difference between tech and magic. You can make light with technology but you can not make "day light". Magic can interact with technology alot easier than technology can interact with magic. Magic can replace electricity but electricity can't replace magic.

But the real kicker is that magic is only as good as the mage that is weilding it. You just can't mass produce smart magicians the way you can mass produce smart bombs. So yeah I think a really good magic guy beats a really good tech guy, but a bad mage loses to a bad tech guy . . . and remember 1/2 of all people are below average

[Sureshot]

Spell levels 1-5 can be cast with no problem, even under pressed attack. It's the "combat" magic. And, to be honest, if you can't find something in spell levels 1-5 to get your a$$ away from a few opponents, you're not trying hard enough.

Sure you can cast level 1-5 spells no problem that still leaves level 6-15 spells a large chunk of your magic vunerable to a kid with a bag or rocks. While they are many great spells found in levels 1-5 many are not that great. A good example is Energy distruption which is useless against anything with MDC. Armor of Ithan starts out with only 10 mDC per level when imo it should give you at least a base 50 MDC. And yes I'm trying hard enough so don't make me it look like I'm an idiot when running my character.

There's also TW and magic weapons, minions, and other player characters to help you out. Most magic characters will have quite a few "little toys" on them to help 'em out, especially as they go up in level.

Where not talking about TW just magic as is. When I play mages I stick to my spells first weapons as backup. If I want to use a weapons as my primary attack I play a more combat oriented occ.

Talisman is great for this purpose, as are many of the TW weapons and some of the spells. Likewise, some of the better attack spells can be essentially fire-and-forget. Once you cast Lightning Arc, Throwing stones, or Sorcerous Fury you can do damage with each attack over the duration of the spell . You can cast multiple Fire-globes several weeks in advance and keep them around for a rainy day. Worst case, cast Blind or Carpet of Adhesion and back up 5 steps, then cast away.

Talisman is a great spell but requires some time and an amount of PPE. It's not something that can be cast on the fly. A guy with a gun can just slap another clip in his gun. The other spells you list are good yet again you need to go first and once you get 1 point of damage well there goes your spell. Your also assuming that the odds will be stacked in your favor all the time. When they are mages usually kick behind. When they are not mages imo are in trouble most of the time

What's the problem? Do your mages have an IQ of 4 or something?

I understand that you disagree with my view on magic but a)Don't assume that everyone plays like you and b) Your out of line and that's a personal attack on my playing style. c)You made your point I don't agree with it no need to insult me. I know how to play a mage with my eyes closed probably beter than you.

[Sureshot]

What's interesting is that outside of Rifts and Heroes Unlimted the magic system works perfectly imo. I use the system as is with the only houserule being the new casting times from RUE. With Rifts and HU I don't have trouble with the magic system when I run those games because about 95% of the time no one wants to really play a mage type in HU or Rifts. In PF or NB there is always at least 1 or 2 players who pick a magic occ.

[RainOfSteel]

I voted for "weak", but I would really like to have said unorganized, poorly worded, and self-contradictory.

If the rules said everything they needed to, the teleporting into vehicles topic and the armor stacking topic wouldn't have ever started.

[Mack]

Topic trimmed. Posts in violation of the Rules of Conduct removed.

[RainOfSteel]

I'm tired of posting on sites that favor people who like to cry to mods when they lose.

Quite fierce arguments go on in some topics.

For example:

This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on... (aka the "Teleport into Vehicles" topic).

Stacking Magical Armor

Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Ravenwing]

I wonder, having just re-read the rules in R:UE, if damage has to be done, to interrupt the spell. From what I read, it would seem even a violent shake, or something similar would effect spell casting.

[Toc Rat]

Dont forget that 99% of all topics involving the CS also get a little heated. Oh and if its about the SoT...look out, that will start a flame war for sure.

[Sureshot]

I wonder, having just re-read the rules in R:UE, if damage has to be done, to interrupt the spell. From what I read, it would seem even a violent shake, or something similar would effect spell casting.

I go the same impression too. I sometimes wish that mages had a save to cast their spells when they take damage.

[Toc Rat]

I wonder, having just re-read the rules in R:UE, if damage has to be done, to interrupt the spell. From what I read, it would seem even a violent shake, or something similar would effect spell casting.

That is my understanding aswell.

[Ravenwing]

Mages should have a concentration skill, like in D&D then. Or atleast a Caster check, something. It would get annoying if everytime you try to cast a spell the juicer just pushes you.

[Sureshot]

Mages should have a concentration skill, like in D&D then. Or atleast a Caster check, something. It would get annoying if everytime you try to cast a spell the juicer just pushes you.

Agreed. At the very least if a mage loses his spell when he gets damage than the psychic should also lose it too and the person with the weapon should miss complete.

[Library Ogre]

To cast a spell you have to speak a little speech, spot on, right cadence and everything.

Try doing that without making a mistake when I'm shooting you. Mind you, you'll take no damage at all... your armor will absorb 100% of the shots... but you're getting hit by rail gun rounds or high-energy particles.

Will you be able to say three seconds of the Gettysburg Address, without error, while being slammed with rail gun rounds?

[RainOfSteel]

Will you be able to say three seconds of the Gettysburg Address, without error, while being slammed with rail gun rounds?

Realistically speaking, the answer is no.

That is one reason why Rifts magic is weak.

Poor range for almost all spells is another major factor in Rifts magic weakness.

[Toc Rat]

I played in a campaign with a GM that also thought magic was far too weak in Rifts. Unfortuantely he swung the pandelum a little too far to the Magic side in his attempt to compensate.

We made our characters as per normal and then during the first few minutes of the game the party was sucked in to a Rift and we found ourselves on a world where the glowing blue of Ley-Lines were EVERYWHERE. In fact it was like a exact opposite of Rifts Earth. On this planet the "ley-lines" where the only spots devoid of magic. To make matters worse, anything more advanced then a sword or horse drawn wagon didn't work unless you were on top one of those non-magic ley-lines.

Like I said, he went a little too far trying to compensate. I had made a Special Forces character out of Merc Ops and crafted him so that he could pilot just about anything. That sick puppy of a GM actually let me make him, knowing that he would be next to useless in the world he was going to throw us in.

[Sureshot]

Realistically speaking, the answer is no.

That is one reason why Rifts magic is weak.

Poor range for almost all spells is another major factor in Rifts magic weakness.

This and the effects of spells sometimes leaves a lot to be desired. Psychics get really good anti-tech abilites. Mages don't with no real good in game reason.

[Ahulane]

Have you read my "Civilized exchange of views" thread? In there I deal with the Magic Vs Tech argument.

The magic system in and of itself, isn't all that weak. It is better to say that Tech is so much stronger.

In most cases, anything Magic can do, Tech can do, only faster, cheaper and more of it. To be sure, there are things that Magic can do that as of yet Tech has not been able to do. The best example of this would be the Resurection class of spells.

With the new rules in RUE, things equalized somewhat between Magic and Tech with regards to casting times Vs aiming times. However I did not like the changes to the aiming times, I would have like to seen only a change done with the Magic system.

No I haven't read it, I'll do a search and take a gander at it

I'll have to agree with you somewhat there though, what I was trying to say in my previous post was no magic isn't weak...Yes in most cases whatever magic can do tech can do as well as the other way around (with some exceptions like you said), but there is a "scale of power" so to speak. Magic and psionics start out fairly weak on the scale of power where tech is near the far end of the scale to start. Tech doesn't have much in the way of progression hence its position on the scale where magic and psionics have alot of room for improvement and progression which is why they start out so weak.

Regardless of how you try to compare them though, I think that, no magic isn't weak at all, it has just as many weaknesses as technology or psionics do which is the way its supposed to be.

too believe that the save Vs Magic rules need work. As they stand now, it is unlikely that any spell that CAN be saved against WONT be. I like your idea for house ruling it. I will incorperate something like that in my games.

I don't agree with your opinion in regards to the saving throws, a 12 or 14 isn't really that hard to roll on a 20 sider, you have just under a 50% chance of saving without bonuses to most magic. If your complaining about how its not fair that a high level caster has the same saving throw for all his spells regardless of level...well pick a different OCC. There are several OCC's out there that increase your spell strength making your spells harder to resist...thats part of the reason why a LLW compared to say...a Lord Magus or High Magus...is just your everyday magic user where the others are more devoted to it, part of the reason why they get bonuses and the LLW doesn't.

Where would the fun be if magic was stronger than it is right now though, and your chance to save against harmful effects was around 10%? You'd seriously tip the scales in your favor making spells more difficult to resist or simply eliminating some of their handicaps like being interupted when hit, or making it where you don't need hand gestures or verbal cantations to cast your spells.

If you did that then mages would be like psychics but more powerful since psychics can walk around and snap someones neck with their mind or turn someone into their mind slave and no-one knows what their doing. If mages could do that it would make them godly. Your lucky this isn't D&D and 99% of your spells require components, verbal, physical and time to cast...then magic could be called weak.

Is magic to weak in Rifts? Is it trivial even compared to tech? IMHO it is, a D&D wizard could completely decimate a rifts one. Even if his spells are limited, when you look at the two side by side. Assuming that the Wizard could inflict md, and that isn't that far of a stretch.

1) no its not weak it just takes longer to become stronger
2) again no, it just takes more effort to master it where tech doesn't

It is your opinion yes, but no way can they decimate a rifts mage...D&D wizard level 1 vs a level one LLW, LLW wins easy for various reasons (more HP, more spells, not limited to spells/day, better starting gear ect.).
I haven't play D&D for a long time and don't ever plan to simply because I loath the d20 system, but regardless of the levels, a Rifts mage will win the fight every time simply because they have "more of" compared to a D&D wizard just innately.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

its comes down to a player's skill at playing a mage in rifts and using his ppe at the right time

[JTwig]

This has come up often enough in several threads, that I thought I would ask others what they think. Is magic to weak in Rifts? Is it trivial even compared to tech? IMHO it is, a D&D wizard could completely decimate a rifts one. Even if his spells are limited, when you look at the two side by side. Assuming that the Wizard could inflict md, and that isn't that far of a stretch. I also fail to see how magic can compete with magic, often it seems that tech can do things faster, cheaper, and far easier then magic. Now I admit there are ofcoarse exceptions to this. What could be done to improve magic in rifts? Does it need improvement ? For sake of argument we will exclude Techno-wizardry, only because it relies on tech as it's basis. All else is open for consideration.

I'd say at one time it was to weak, but with the inclusions of new rules and equipment it has caught up to most technology. The main equalizer is the new rule regarding casting times, it use to make no sense for a mage to cast anything in combat other than support spells so that the men-at-arms character could take out the opponents (why cast Call Lightning when it only did 5d6 and cost half your attacks, when you could use an energy pistol that does 3d6 for all of your attacks). While this is a viable way to play, it sort of limited the players when it came to character concept.

[Toc Rat]

We will just disagree I think on the subject of magic saving throws Ahulane. Perhaps a greater then 50% chance of failure is a OK reliability rate for a weapon system you use but not me. If I pull the trigger on a weapon, I'd like it to do it's job more then just 50% of the time... aL O T more.

The magic saving throw system needs to be redone entirely. It should be based off of something besides PE. Why? Because what soldier, merc or man-at-arms OCC doesnt have a high PE? Even at 1st lvl, they will more then likely start with a PE greater then 18, thus making the standard save Vs a spell at 12 a very simple challenge for them.

On the other hand, look at the save base for Psionics, it requires a 15 for non-psychics. It also only influenced by the ME score, not something that can be increased by picking a new physical skill the next time you lvl.

The save Vs magic could be based on a different stat, such as IQ for instance. It could stay as it is now but with a minor modifaction to the amount of bonus you get for having a high PE stat. Or you could raise the base diff from 12 to 14 or even 15.

That might be the best solution, make it the same as with psionics, 15 base for non-magic users, 12 for magic users.

This wouldnt change many of magic's other short comings but it would at least make it so a spell caster could reasonably expect his spells to work more then 50% of the time.

[Ravenwing]

Personally the PE part makes sense to me. The body is what resists magic, now if it was some sort of mind influencing spell, I agree to use another attribute. Perhaps thats whats needed, like 3E, have three separate possible saves for magic, from a PP(dodge), Body(PE) and a mental one (ME prob)

[Toc Rat]

Personally the PE part makes sense to me. The body is what resists magic, now if it was some sort of mind influencing spell, I agree to use another attribute. Perhaps thats whats needed, like 3E, have three separate possible saves for magic, from a PP(dodge), Body(PE) and a mental one (ME prob)

Hmm, I understand where you are going with that but I think it's too complex. Better to keep it one stat and one roll of the dice. Imgaine if the spell had multiple parts to it? If it affected the mind and body?

[Ravenwing]

Personally the PE part makes sense to me. The body is what resists magic, now if it was some sort of mind influencing spell, I agree to use another attribute. Perhaps thats whats needed, like 3E, have three separate possible saves for magic, from a PP(dodge), Body(PE) and a mental one (ME prob)

Hmm, I understand where you are going with that but I think it's too complex. Better to keep it one stat and one roll of the dice. Imgaine if the spell had multiple parts to it? If it affected the mind and body?

Simple, they require two saves, if it has two parts to it, both parts may not effect a person the same.

Remember d20 is over simplified and it works for it.

[Library Ogre]

I think if you allow too much of that kind of stuff in a game, you can certainly get to wondering why you need mages at all.

~Semi

Mages in DND are for aritllery Support, Fireballs, cloudkills, and negating magic.

Not really. They're far more effective at making people stop doing things, so your warrior-types can grind them. They're really only effective as artillery when you're significantly higher level than your opposition (i.e. you're the BBEG).

[Sureshot]

Not really. They're far more effective at making people stop doing things, so your warrior-types can grind them. They're really only effective as artillery when you're significantly higher level than your opposition (i.e. you're the BBEG).

Agreed and seconded.

[Ravenwing]

I think if you allow too much of that kind of stuff in a game, you can certainly get to wondering why you need mages at all.

~Semi

Mages in DND are for aritllery Support, Fireballs, cloudkills, and negating magic.

Not really. They're far more effective at making people stop doing things, so your warrior-types can grind them. They're really only effective as artillery when you're significantly higher level than your opposition (i.e. you're the BBEG).

IDK, with Fireball and it's blast radius, Ice storm, and other mid level spells and about 200 GP you can make scrolls till your blue in the face, add in bonus spells and the fact that D&D wizards can counter-spell, you've got your self a rapid fire assault guy there. Also don't forget meta feats, expanded, maxed fireballs on scroll at 10th level anyone?

[Library Ogre]

IDK, with Fireball and it's blast radius, Ice storm, and other mid level spells and about 200 GP you can make scrolls till your blue in the face, add in bonus spells and the fact that D&D wizards can counter-spell, you've got your self a rapid fire assault guy there. Also don't forget meta feats, expanded, maxed fireballs on scroll at 10th level anyone?

Not the most effective use of your time; it's a toss up whether Standard Actions or Caster Levels are more valuable.

[Mack]

The key to Rifts magic isn't in its firepower, it's in its versatility. It's having the right spell at the right time that can completely shift the course of battle, or win a fight before it even starts. The mage has a myriad of tools at his disposal. The soldier can only pull the same trigger.

[dark brandon]

No, if anything magic is too strong.

[RainOfSteel]

The key to Rifts magic isn't in its firepower, it's in its versatility. It's having the right spell at the right time that can completely shift the course of battle, or win a fight before it even starts.

In actual gaming, that almost never happens.

Fights rarely contain a single crucial moment.

An available mage almost never possesses the the one correct spell.

Even when crucial moments occur, and the right spell is available, the mage's player, brainblasted from an 80 hour work-week, almost never identifies said moment and said spell.

[Toc Rat]

No, if anything magic is too strong.

Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

[Ravenwing]

No, if anything magic is too strong.

Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Your forgetting the first rule of Kevin "Thou salt not whop the CS"

2nd Rule. "Thou shall not dis Lazlo and its many hippies."

[Toc Rat]

No, if anything magic is too strong.

Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Your forgetting the first rule of Kevin "Thou salt not whop the CS"

My bad...I forgot that passage from the holy Kevinomicon.

[Ravenwing]

No, if anything magic is too strong.

Right, that's why the CS always wins when fighting magic users.

Your forgetting the first rule of Kevin "Thou salt not whop the CS"

2nd Rule. "Thou shall not dis Lazlo and its many hippies."

Unless your the CS

3rd Rule. "Never shall Lazlo and the CS meet, for if they do, there sheer contradictory nature will cause both to be whisked away into nothingness."

[Sureshot]

In actual gaming, that almost never happens.

Fights rarely contain a single crucial moment.

An available mage almost never possesses the the one correct spell.

Even when crucial moments occur, and the right spell is available, the mage's player, brainblasted from an 80 hour work-week, almost never identifies said moment and said spell.

Seconded.