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In my understanding (( and this could be flawed)) Humanity no longer looks at one another in such demeaning ways.

Who cares if your skin is a more chocolate brown than mine is, when that guy over there has green fur, razor claws and can throw a tank at you and shoot lasers from his nostrels! Or that demon over there can weild dark arts at you that could blow said tank into peices.

I'd see 'racial' problems being much more racial.

it's hinted at a bit in the DBees book how some races get along and some don't. with out coming out right and going "Such and such are racists towards ____ "

I'd agree that the advent of actual non-human intelligent life would make most racism between human ethnic groups dry up.

Now, religious persecution, that I could see continuing, but as we know next to nothing about the religious beliefs of most Rifts human societies, except for the occasional comment about them being "god-fearing," it's difficult to judge.

I would also agree with Pepsi Jedi and say no.

I truly believe that the CS would have an African-American as it's emperor if something happened to the two Proseks.

Color no longer matters just whether you are a human or not.

Chuck

After centuries of struggling to survive I think most people on rifts earth would be predominately multiracial. I just think that the idea was never thought about by the artists, who being mostly white guys, just by natural inclination would automatically draw white looking people. Though there are a few obviously non-white human drawings in the books.

Specism not racism

Yes racisim between humans is still around. The focus of the differences likey has changed. Instead of being based on your skin color, religious background, nationality, etc (though they are likely still around in some small degree)

It is now based more on how "pure" your viewed to be:
-psychic
-some type of mutant human

Both of these groups are not liked in FQ (a human power).

I kinda agree. But it would make a good plot for a CS game where the CS players encounter someone that is racist against other humans.

lets not forget class based racism.

there is racism all over rifts earth

Bood Samel wrote:After centuries of struggling to survive I think most people on rifts earth would be predominately multiracial. I just think that the idea was never thought about by the artists, who being mostly white guys, just by natural inclination would automatically draw white looking people. Though there are a few obviously non-white human drawings in the books.

This I agree with; there's a sizable miscegenation trend today, which, I believe, would only grow stronger after the Coming of the Rifts. I also agree with the opinion of ShadowLogan that racism against perceived mutants would be strong, but that would be somewhat less "racism" than "bigotry"... psi-stalkers may be a distinct race, but human psychics are not, and you can't pick them out of a crowd and they don't necessarily breed true.

Dont confuse racism wiht politics. Mutants would be considered a sub species, and probably discriminated aginst. Psychics may also be considered s sub species in certain circles. Psychic sympathizers and db sympathysers may be descriminated aginst but this is mor of a political discrimination, much like belonging to opposing political parties.

Also many uneducated wilderness folk may take another variety of human to be a DB. Say if a pure Asian ended up in a NA wilderness village, the Asian wouldn't look like the people there. That amount slight difference in appearance is on par with the slight amount of difference in appearance in a quick flex. Back water Ignorance would lead to weird forms of discrimination.

I would imagine the CS troops would have classes on how to figure out who to shoot and who not to shoot.

Bood Samel wrote:Also many uneducated wilderness folk may take another variety of human to be a DB. Say if a pure Asian ended up in a NA wilderness village, the Asian wouldn't look like the people there. That amount slight difference in appearance is on par with the slight amount of difference in appearance in a quick flex. Back water Ignorance would lead to weird forms of discrimination.

I would imagine the CS troops would have classes on how to figure out who to shoot and who not to shoot.

No way the differances between human ethnicity and a quick-flex are the same. Quick-flexes have no nose's

It's not that strange of a concept. When white people ran into african pigmy's for the first time they thought they were monkey men that spoke because of the cloth wraps that hung down in the back like tails....

He's actually right. To a totally ignorant person, of say african decent, that had never seed a white person before. EVER... wouldn't they look DRASTICLY different to you?

Think of descriptions people give the police today, the very first question ever asked is "What ethnicity was the guy? White? Hispanic? Asian? ect ect ect" Such differences are large in the human mind.

You'd sure notice if the guy was green. That'd stick out in your head because you probably haven't ever seen a green guy. To someone that had never seen an asian (( or what ever)) it'd easily be just as drastic.

Now.. that's... a HUGE level of ignorance I'm not sure would be "Common" but heck, there's some hill folk in the US right now that might qualify.... much less post apocalyptic NA.

rat_bastard wrote:lets not forget class based racism.

Semisonic9 wrote:

Darkmax wrote:s... do they have human rights... or animal rights?.... or they get both?

You think animals have rights in Rifts?

I don't think PETA survived the Coming of the Rifts, bro. It's dog-eat-dog out there.

Joking aside, I agree that humans are probably much more accepting of other humans, and that class structure based on ability would vary by geographic region. For example, in Dweomer I imagine the Magi take care of themselves, first, then other magic users, then regular people, and keep a suspicious eye on any psychics. In the CS, it's humans first, then psychics (depending on which book you go by, I guess), then CS citizens, then dog boys, then psi-stalkers, then everyone else. As always, OCC varies how you're treated a lot, too. GBs and CKs will be treated as heroes and held in high regard, while mages, psychics, and other men at arms may be valued or may "get no respect!", depending on where they are. Ditto 'Borgs, mutants, and various D-Bees.

Rember, it's a natural instinct of every species to identify with those most like themselves, and set themselves in opposition to those different.

~Semi

PETA did to survive, who do you think founded Lazlo?

Ravenwing wrote:

Semisonic9 wrote:

Darkmax wrote:s... do they have human rights... or animal rights?.... or they get both?

You think animals have rights in Rifts?

I don't think PETA survived the Coming of the Rifts, bro. It's dog-eat-dog out there.

Joking aside, I agree that humans are probably much more accepting of other humans, and that class structure based on ability would vary by geographic region. For example, in Dweomer I imagine the Magi take care of themselves, first, then other magic users, then regular people, and keep a suspicious eye on any psychics. In the CS, it's humans first, then psychics (depending on which book you go by, I guess), then CS citizens, then dog boys, then psi-stalkers, then everyone else. As always, OCC varies how you're treated a lot, too. GBs and CKs will be treated as heroes and held in high regard, while mages, psychics, and other men at arms may be valued or may "get no respect!", depending on where they are. Ditto 'Borgs, mutants, and various D-Bees.

Rember, it's a natural instinct of every species to identify with those most like themselves, and set themselves in opposition to those different.

~Semi

PETA did to survive, who do you think founded Lazlo?

no they founded CS lonestar, yes that is how twisted peta is

OK, I'll open up the can 'o worms..

It doesn't seem fitting the character of the CS to be racist. An organization based on the Unity of Mankind, should theoretically be absent of racial predjudice. It also seems to warrant a lot of nice elements to flesh out the CS because they would be more effective if they looked like the sort of racially and genderly harmonious utopia we wish the USA was... well... except for the facism and genocidal hatred of non-humans (Gotta love them complex villains).

That being said, I will say that the portrayal of the CS shows a bit of race-bias which kinds of weakens them as compelling in this way. The vast majority of CS troops are portrayed as caucasian, with the vast majority of CS high command being white males, with one or two African Americans (Desmond Bradford and Carol Black) being in more localized positions. One or two Hispanics. And one or two women. It's kind of like the USA, sure, there are some women and minorities in high places, but one look at Congress, Supreme Court, and Presidential candidates and you know who the influential folks are.

But, in General, Rifts does fall into the trap of "White person in charge" with "Non-white sidekick put in so no one thinks we're racist or nothin". It really falls down because there are almost no places where a black person is in charge of anything. In N. America, that's one thing, but whose bright idea was it to do a sourcebook on Africa... and not have any black people in charge of anything!? The RUE could give an opportunity to fix that. A racially diverse gender-blind CS... which is coming to kill you all! It would be a beautiful thing, it really would!

Nothing brings people together closer than tradgedy.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:

Semisonic9 wrote:

Darkmax wrote:s... do they have human rights... or animal rights?.... or they get both?

You think animals have rights in Rifts?

I don't think PETA survived the Coming of the Rifts, bro. It's dog-eat-dog out there.

Joking aside, I agree that humans are probably much more accepting of other humans, and that class structure based on ability would vary by geographic region. For example, in Dweomer I imagine the Magi take care of themselves, first, then other magic users, then regular people, and keep a suspicious eye on any psychics. In the CS, it's humans first, then psychics (depending on which book you go by, I guess), then CS citizens, then dog boys, then psi-stalkers, then everyone else. As always, OCC varies how you're treated a lot, too. GBs and CKs will be treated as heroes and held in high regard, while mages, psychics, and other men at arms may be valued or may "get no respect!", depending on where they are. Ditto 'Borgs, mutants, and various D-Bees.

Rember, it's a natural instinct of every species to identify with those most like themselves, and set themselves in opposition to those different.

~Semi

PETA did to survive, who do you think founded Lazlo?

no they founded CS lonestar, yes that is how twisted peta is

No way man. PETA wants you to hug trees and eat people, not enslave and mutant animals.

DamonS wrote:OK, I'll open up the can 'o worms..

It doesn't seem fitting the character of the CS to be racist. An organization based on the Unity of Mankind, should theoretically be absent of racial predjudice. It also seems to warrant a lot of nice elements to flesh out the CS because they would be more effective if they looked like the sort of racially and genderly harmonious utopia we wish the USA was... well... except for the facism and genocidal hatred of non-humans (Gotta love them complex villains).

That being said, I will say that the portrayal of the CS shows a bit of race-bias which kinds of weakens them as compelling in this way. The vast majority of CS troops are portrayed as caucasian, with the vast majority of CS high command being white males, with one or two African Americans (Desmond Bradford and Carol Black) being in more localized positions. One or two Hispanics. And one or two women. It's kind of like the USA, sure, there are some women and minorities in high places, but one look at Congress, Supreme Court, and Presidential candidates and you know who the influential folks are.

But, in General, Rifts does fall into the trap of "White person in charge" with "Non-white sidekick put in so no one thinks we're racist or nothin". It really falls down because there are almost no places where a black person is in charge of anything. In N. America, that's one thing, but whose bright idea was it to do a sourcebook on Africa... and not have any black people in charge of anything!? The RUE could give an opportunity to fix that. A racially diverse gender-blind CS... which is coming to kill you all! It would be a beautiful thing, it really would!

I don't see it like that at all.

I think you're mistaking an art representation for some sort of bais. In a cartoony style it's easier to draw white guys. If you draw africian Americans in a cartoony fashion someone might take offense, but you can pretty much draw a white guy how ever you want.

If you draw a black guy and his lips are too pronounced or something you catch flack. You draw a white guy with big lips and he's just got big lips. You draw a black guy running away from a monster you catch flack, white guy does it? It's funny. Not only that but Rifts books are black and white. Largely crispy black and white art. This too makes it harder to represent a person of African decent. Too light and it's "you're drawing him like a white guy" too dark and you catch flack for it too.

The CS shows no racial bias and only a moderate gender bias. ANd even that which is shown I think is a hold over from the writers not so much the CS themselves.

The CS Has two huge presences that are black. Holmes and Bradford.
They have a woman General.

I don't see racial bias in the the CS as even approaching what we have today in the US military. ANd even that's petering out over time.

I think it's nothing more than the CS crew just making up people as they go along with no preset "Ok we've got two whites and a black we need an Asian and a Hispanic!!" they just make um up as they go and roll with it.

Ravenwing wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:

Semisonic9 wrote:

Darkmax wrote:s... do they have human rights... or animal rights?.... or they get both?

You think animals have rights in Rifts?

I don't think PETA survived the Coming of the Rifts, bro. It's dog-eat-dog out there.

Joking aside, I agree that humans are probably much more accepting of other humans, and that class structure based on ability would vary by geographic region. For example, in Dweomer I imagine the Magi take care of themselves, first, then other magic users, then regular people, and keep a suspicious eye on any psychics. In the CS, it's humans first, then psychics (depending on which book you go by, I guess), then CS citizens, then dog boys, then psi-stalkers, then everyone else. As always, OCC varies how you're treated a lot, too. GBs and CKs will be treated as heroes and held in high regard, while mages, psychics, and other men at arms may be valued or may "get no respect!", depending on where they are. Ditto 'Borgs, mutants, and various D-Bees.

Rember, it's a natural instinct of every species to identify with those most like themselves, and set themselves in opposition to those different.

~Semi

PETA did to survive, who do you think founded Lazlo?

no they founded CS lonestar, yes that is how twisted peta is

No way man. PETA wants you to hug trees and eat people, not enslave and mutant animals.

if you only knew the power of Peta's Dark side

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:if you only knew the power of Peta's Dark side

oh, Viper,I do.
PETA are a bunch of hippocrites who need to go away. Maybe they are still around due to a lack of protein in the diets of their followers. As some of you may know denial of protein is a cult brainwashing technique.

the_robot wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The CS Has two huge presences that are black. Holmes and Bradford.
They have a woman General.

I was going to mention that...and I agree that I don't see much, if any, racial bias in the CS or really anywhere on Rifts Earth. I think a lot of people here have really hit it on the head. I doubt very much the color of one's skin, at least for the most part (there's also rotten stupid tomatoes out there someplace), compares to the difference between a human and a grackletooth or brodkil.

For starters, the 'woman general' quote does settle it that the portrayal is very gender biased. How many CS generals are portrayed, and only one of them is a woman (in a gender-blind society, the number would be half of them being women, not one out of ten, but half). To do the calculation, it's very easy. Simply take the % of population that make up a group, then take the % of the command structure that is that group, and compare. This is why feminists get so mad. It's clear as day in these things when things are not gender-blind for one reason or another.

As for racial bias, for Lone star, the mix is about right. You have an African American, some hispanics, some white folks, (about half/half men/women so they got the gender thing going on too)... in the command of Lone Star... its within shooting distance of demographics. And yes, Lone Star is a CS book. Whites are a bit under-represented, but they're there, they exist, and they also are in influential positions. Although, I've never seen a science lab of more than 3 people without any asians in it, and I've been in science for about a decade. But Lone star is actually compelling in its diversity. Kind of like Star Trek... as if Gene Roddenberry was a Facist too. Or Nazi research without the racism (heheh). However, does the rest of the CS hold up?

For the Rest of the CS..... as in outside of Lone Star.... it's really really *white male* for a continent where white males are only 37% (Approximately 1 in 3 American people is a white male). As for racial bias in the portrayal of the CS.... it's a little better than the portrayal of everyone else, but it does still tend to fall into the trap of "white guy in charge, non-white sidekicks". It's not as bad as, say, Reids Rangers, Erin Tarn (and 'Tonto'), The Fed of Magic (It never *says* that non-whites need not apply.... but... none are ever depicted). But you still have white guys at the top (Proseks) who have subordinates who are a disproportionate majority white (generals). I will give the CS props, they are better than... say... just about everyone else in Rifts at this. They are demonstrably the least racially biased group in Rifts, but they're not what you'd expect if it was truly race-neutral. Are there any hispanic generals? I don't remember any, but I didn't go through Seige on Tolkeen. Now asians are a smaller percentage of the US population, but does the CS have any asians? I'd think they've given enough CS NPC's that we should be seeing some, if it was truly race-blind.

Just for reference, can someone give all the generals yet mentioned?

Individually, there is nothing wrong with an organization with a white male in charge with coincidentally non-whites below him... however, just about all of the major organizations depicted in Rifts are depicted this way. In North America, it's kind of odd. You know, like in the USA. Demographically, as white males are one of the largest demographic groups in the USA, it's no suprise that we have one as President. However, when you have 54 of 'em in the row... then there's some evidence of a bias somewhere.

For otherRifts books, it's not too bad, if the area is predominantly mono-racial then it makes sense the leaders be of that race. Ok, not many black people in England.. fair enough. Same in Germany... fair enough. Same in Russia... fair enough. How's about Africa..... Pharoah Rama Set is the shapeshifting lord of an African Empire..... why is he a white guy again!? The entire continent of Africa, and there's not a single black person in charge of anything!? Not a single one.

duck-foot wrote:i know the cs and a lot of humans are racist against dees. but, does raceism between humans still exist in rifts. i ask becouse the book says nothing on this. one of my players played a guy with the last name of Blackfield in the NGR, and one of the other players remarked your playing a jew in germany, ofcourse in told him thats no longer the case. so it got me wondering. its not something i would let in a game, but still im curious. so does it say anything in any of the rifts books on this.

If I remember correctly in the write up for Jericho Holmes in one of the SoT, it states that he has never known the sting of racism for the color of his skin, and goes on to imply that (at least in the CS) such things are almost unheard of.

three women sit on the CS high command, a female runs the psi-corps

And Gene Roddenberry wasn't a fascist, he was a communist. Jeez.

Also if one begins to actually list every general in the CS, I'm sure you would find that many are infact female, or a non-white race. Also considering that many modern indians live in and are citizens of the CS. Also helps dispell the ideal of human based racism in the CS.

Thing is you're generalizing and assuming in many different ways in your post.

DamonS wrote:For starters, the 'woman general' quote does settle it that the portrayal is very gender biased. How many CS generals are portrayed, and only one of them is a woman (in a gender-blind society, the number would be half of them being women, not one out of ten, but half). To do the calculation, it's very easy. Simply take the % of population that make up a group, then take the % of the command structure that is that group, and compare. This is why feminists get so mad. It's clear as day in these things when things are not gender-blind for one reason or another.

Here your generalizing like very profession in the world should have a straight 50/50% split between males and females for things to not be biased, but it's not so. You don't see 50% Mary Kay sales MEN out there nor do you see 50% Hooters girls... or 50% male teachers... some jobs in the society we exist in are historically gender prone. Your claiming bias where there are many other factors at play.

Even in today's sociey many "Enlightened" Nations don't allow women in front line combat, even though they're allowed in the millitary. Correspondingly, they have fewer women generals. Can you be in the army and be a woman? Yes. Can you make general and be a woman? Yes. Nothing's stopping you but in some armies it's harder.

Historically Men have been the ones doing the fighting. Might sound sexist but it's a fact. Facts can't be sexist or racist. For every one culture that had amizonian type women you have 100 where the men fight and the women raise the kids. This sort of thing isn't easily given up.

Sure in the US we're edging closer and closer towards "anyone "CAN" do anything but just anyone DOESN"T do anything. I don't have the numbers infront of me but I'd guess that the male to female ratio in the US armed forces is at least 2 to 1. if not higher. In a case such as that, you'd expect two male generals per female one.

We don't have the gender break down on CS military gender numbers.

DamonS wrote:As for racial bias, for Lone star, the mix is about right. You have an African American, some hispanics, some white folks, (about half/half men/women so they got the gender thing going on too)... in the command of Lone Star... its within shooting distance of demographics. And yes, Lone Star is a CS book. Whites are a bit under-represented, but they're there, they exist, and they also are in influential positions. Although, I've never seen a science lab of more than 3 people without any asians in it, and I've been in science for about a decade. But Lone star is actually compelling in its diversity. Kind of like Star Trek... as if Gene Roddenberry was a Facist too. Or Nazi research without the racism (heheh). However, does the rest of the CS hold up?

You're glossing over the fact that the second most powerful man in the CS is a black guy and the general of the second biggest CS power base is a woman.

Sure..... it's easy to lump them in, but the facts remain. Bradford is the second most powerful guy in the CS and does what he wants even disobeying Prosek when ever he wants. So it's arguable that he's equal to power in all but name.

It's also easy to gloss over the fact the woman general fields one of if not the biggest CS standing army's from it's biggest state out side of Chi Town itself. (( You have to add in the Animal corps, but hey, if you were going to war, wouldn't you add them all in?))

DamonS wrote:
For the Rest of the CS..... as in outside of Lone Star.... it's really really *white male* for a continent where white males are only 37% (Approximately 1 in 3 American people is a white male). As for racial bias in the portrayal of the CS.... it's a little better than the portrayal of everyone else, but it does still tend to fall into the trap of "white guy in charge, non-white sidekicks". It's not as bad as, say, Reids Rangers, Erin Tarn (and 'Tonto'), The Fed of Magic (It never *says* that non-whites need not apply.... but... none are ever depicted). But you still have white guys at the top (Proseks) who have subordinates who are a disproportionate majority white (generals). I will give the CS props, they are better than... say... just about everyone else in Rifts at this. They are demonstrably the least racially biased group in Rifts, but they're not what you'd expect if it was truly race-neutral. Are there any hispanic generals? I don't remember any, but I didn't go through Seige on Tolkeen. Now asians are a smaller percentage of the US population, but does the CS have any asians? I'd think they've given enough CS NPC's that we should be seeing some, if it was truly race-blind.

Here, you're assuming. By saying this you're assuming that the cross section of people we see out of helmets is representative of the entire army.

For every pic of a CS guy out of his armor or helment we have to see 100 in helmets and armor. You can't honestly assume that every guy in the armor is white. Well you can assume but it's an assumption based on incomplete information.

Like wise the references of Generals we have and their ethnic types are like wised open to interpretation. We've been given what 20 or 30 generals? How many havent been given. More over. How many were never labled as any race and one of 30 artist dew a picture for them based on a name?

So basically we see dozens and dozens of guys in armor that could be any ethnic type and probably comprised of them all. The CS are human supremacists. They make no effort to hide that what so ever. If race or gender mattered I believe it'd have been mentioned in one of the 60 or so rifts books by now.
[/quote]

DamonS wrote:
Just for reference, can someone give all the generals yet mentioned?

I'd like a list too, if for nothing else that it'd be useful, but I'm not going though all the dozens of books to get um. Ah'm lazy. lol

DamonS wrote:Individually, there is nothing wrong with an organization with a white male in charge with coincidentally non-whites below him... however, just about all of the major organizations depicted in Rifts are depicted this way. In North America, it's kind of odd. You know, like in the USA. Demographically, as white males are one of the largest demographic groups in the USA, it's no suprise that we have one as President. However, when you have 54 of 'em in the row... then there's some evidence of a bias somewhere.

Well it's not all that surprising really. For a long time white males were the only ones allowed to vote. So you can take those off the list. Ect ect ect.

You're sorta looking at things from one side, with out really looking at all the other sides of it. Heck there are countries that are just now starting to let women even vote. But they're not sexist now, to say they were because for 90% of their time they only had males is looking at the information at a slant.

DamonS wrote:For otherRifts books, it's not too bad, if the area is predominantly mono-racial then it makes sense the leaders be of that race. Ok, not many black people in England.. fair enough. Same in Germany... fair enough. Same in Russia... fair enough. How's about Africa..... Pharoah Rama Set is the shapeshifting lord of an African Empire..... why is he a white guy again!? The entire continent of Africa, and there's not a single black person in charge of anything!? Not a single one.

Eh, I don't know the other world books as much as I know NA, but Bradfords incharge of all of Lone Star. That's pretty big. And rivals Prosek in power over all.


All in all your arguments arn't "wrong" I just think that they fail to take into account some of the "big picture" that is rifts beyond every char coming with a "Ethnic type" on their stat write up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, It's been a loooooooonnnnngggggggg time since I read rifts africa, but isn't Rama-Set a demon or somesuch?


As to the rest of Africa, there aren't any towns really listed is there? Mainly IIRC it just gives the generic template for the villages and such. It would be a safe assumption therefore that the leaders of these villages, towns, and tribes be black. Since Africa is a black nation. Or am I wrong in this assumption?


If we look at Japan, all the leaders are Asian.

If we look at south america, the leaders are Latino.

If we look at Mexico, the vampire kingdoms are lead by Latinos.

If we look at Spirt West, the leaders are Native Americans.

If we look at....... stop me when you get the point.

You see Europe is lead by whites because it's a historically white area. The CS is much the same since whites make up the majority of the USA today. This isn't racism so much as it is simple numbers.

Yes, in jobs where there is no innate advantage for one gender or another, in a perfect world, it would be 50/50. Jobs like.. soldier in the high tech MDC battlefield. Quantitatively so in this case, male CS grunts have exactly the same stats as female CS grunts.

Assuming every person in the CS has equal interest in the defense of the CS, half the soldiers should be men, and half women. The folks at PB could *use* that! And they sorta do (depictions of cs troopers do have women and men in them... too bad it falls down once you get to high command).

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Even in today's society many "Enlightened" Nations don't allow women in front line combat, even though they're allowed in the millitary. Correspondingly, they have fewer women generals. Can you be in the army and be a woman? Yes. Can you make general and be a woman? Yes. Nothing's stopping you but in some armies it's harder.

And that would be the fun of making a CS that doesn't have that flaw. It would be quite something else! Historically, men did the fighting, then again, historically we didn't have power armors that made the physical strength of the soldier largely irrelevant. And when the chips are down enough, historically, it wasn't the men who fought, it was *everyone*. Sci fi battlefield plus chips are down means.... Everyone fights.

PepsiJedi wrote:
Bradford is the second most powerful guy in the CS and does what he wants even disobeying Prosek when ever he wants. So it's arguable that he's equal to power in all but name.

It's also easy to gloss over the fact the woman general fields one of if not the biggest CS standing army's from it's biggest state out side of Chi Town itself. (( You have to add in the Animal corps, but hey, if you were going to war, wouldn't you add them all in?))

I think there's a misunderstanding here on what Lone Star is. It's a giant research facility. It's so fortified because it's isolated. Bradford isn't the #2 person in the CS, he's not even on the Executive counsel. He's the #1 guy in Lone Star, but outside of it, his influence is much much less (not that he cares). He gets to do what he wants... in Lone Star. Kashbrook is on the council, she's closer to #2, but she's not even #2. #2 is Joseph Prosek. #3.... probably the overall head of the CS military (what's his name, Underhill? Can't find my sourcebook one.).

Anyways, doesn't change nothin even if she were #2 (which she aint). You look at the big picture... as in the big picture that is depicted, which is 90% of CS generals are white men..... for no good reason... perhaps except for the fact that the USA is the same way. But the USA has race and gender biases, and the CS seems to have the same level of them. This is ok, but it would make the CS a little more compelling if they had completely overcome racial and gender bias, and the depiction showed it, and how different The World would look if it truly was race and gender neutral. It would look wierd! For starters, there'd be women everywhere! Secondly, most of them would only be of average appearance! Loni Cashbrook, age 48, (Looks 30), THAT'S NOT A GENERAL, THAT'S DEMI MOORE! Career Military is more age:48, (Looks 60 with all the scars!). Lets be honest, the one female general depicted in the CS is less a character and more the fantasy of middle-aged military buffs who dream of a hot blonde who loves WWII trivia as much as they do....

On the other hand, I like hot Hot Blondes who love WWII trivia as much as I do.... but it's a little transparent when all my erotic fanfiction involves them falling in love with 30-something science fiction geeks....

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Here, you're assuming. By saying this you're assuming that the cross section of people we see out of helmets is representative of the entire army.

Yes. This is the most important aspect of this. You hold the books responsible for what *is* depicted. If all the generals depicted are men, then you assume all the generals are men. There is no other way to do it.

It's directly analogous to me making a Los Angeles cop show where all the criminals depicted were <Insert ethnic group here>. It's incorrect, and not less so if I say "Oh, in my series, there are criminals of all types, I'm only showing the <insert ethnic group> ones"

Ravenwing wrote:You see Europe is lead by whites because it's a historically white area. The CS is much the same since whites make up the majority of the USA today. This isn't racism so much as it is simple numbers.

Hmm, it's as if I didn't say...

DamonS wrote:For otherRifts books, it's not too bad, if the area is predominantly mono-racial then it makes sense the leaders be of that race. Ok, not many black people in England.. fair enough. Same in Germany... fair enough. Same in Russia... fair enough.

So I've never had any problem with the English folks being portrayed as almost exclusively cacuasian...
It's also as if I didn't say...

DamonS wrote:For the Rest of the CS..... as in outside of Lone Star.... it's really really *white male* for a continent where white males are only 37% (Approximately 1 in 3 American people is a white male).

So, one in three people in North America is a white guy, and it's just 'simple numbers' when the vast majority of generals are white guys? There's more than 'simple numbers' going on there.

Ravenwing wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, It's been a loooooooonnnnngggggggg time since I read rifts africa, but isn't Rama-Set a demon or somesuch?
.

Rama-set is a shape-shifting Dragon who.. for some inexplicable reason... looks like a white guy! Which, in itself wouldn't be bad, it's just that he is, literally, the ONLY AFRICAN PERSON who is given stats and the ONLY AFRICAN PERSON who is mentioned to be doing anything. Triax doesn't give stats for the guys in charge of the NGR, but it at least gives their names and some sense of what they're doing. All of the other books give their names, stats, pictures, the works.... Africa does none of that.

Ravenwing wrote:As to the rest of Africa, there aren't any towns really listed is there? Mainly IIRC it just gives the generic template for the villages and such. It would be a safe assumption therefore that the leaders of these villages, towns, and tribes be black. Since Africa is a black nation. Or am I wrong in this assumption?

Didn't that catch your eye? There are no towns listed in Africa, at least none that african people live in. No towns, no mercenary groups, almost no organizations (they half-mention that the shamans have an organization... not that they talk about anyone in it, or how it works, etc...), and absolutely no people of note are listed. "A gathering of heroes" is mentioned, some "heroes" are statted, evidently, Africa doesn't even have any "heroes" who show up. There are literally more Native Americans mentioned (mentioned as in 'named, given stats, and focused on) in Rifts Africa... than there are Africans.

Ravenwing wrote:If we look at Japan, all the leaders are Asian.
If we look at south america, the leaders are Latino.
If we look at Mexico, the vampire kingdoms are lead by Latinos.
If we look at Spirt West, the leaders are Native Americans.
If we look at....... stop me when you get the point.

I really wish you hadn't stopped! I'll continue for you!

If we look at Africa, all the leaders are....

well.... um... er... One of them is a Dragon who looks like a white guy, and one is Erin Tarn.... and... er.... oooh.... there's a problem there... but we can *assume* the rest are probably African... not that any mention of African leaders would have been relevant... except that book is about Africa. There is a problem when more middle aged white ladies are statted than Black people...... when the book is entitled Africa.

An entire continent of people, grossly simplified into a couple raindancing OCC's, with no heroes, no cities, no leaders, no diversity (they're all the same), no technology (why is Africa is the only continent where no one makes Laser Rifles?). Which is not to say that Africa doesn't have killer Robots... it *Does*. Made by human hands! And used by..... the supernatural forces of the shapeshifting dragon... evidently the writers thought it unrealistic to have African people using robots (despite the fact that every other racial group in Rifts uses robots), so instead, Rama Set is a shapeshifting supernatural dragon who uses killer robots and looks like a white guy for no good reason.

I don't know, having a book entitled "Africa" with no black characters, just.... well.... em... There aren't words for it.....

Actually, where I'd expect to see women is the power armor corps. Men still have a bit of an edge in the infantry; while statistically (i.e. in Palladium's 8 attributes) men and women are the same, men do tend to have higher muscle-to-fat ratios than women and better carrying capacities and upper body strength as a result. Doesn't mean a lot when you're facing demons, but it could be a necessary edge when facing D-bees.

However, in the power armor, none of that means anything. The PA (and robots, for that matter) provide all the lifting capability you need. What's required instead is a cool head, steady aim, and the ability to cope with the various data feeds you have.

DamonS wrote:Yes, in jobs where there is no innate advantage for one gender or another, in a perfect world, it would be 50/50. Jobs like.. soldier in the high tech MDC battlefield. Quantitatively so in this case, male CS grunts have exactly the same stats as female CS grunts.

Again you're looking at partial information. You're going "they roll the same dice and get the same skills in thier oocs."

Yeah that's true, What you're NOT factoring in is the slightly more aggressive nature of the male homo sapien, vs the slightly more passive nature of the female Homo sapien. While not universally divided at the gender line it's enough so that you can bet that way in odds.

You're forgetting thousands and thousands of years with the male of Homo sapiens doing the fighting and the females not. "IN GENERAL"

You're going from partial data. Which is where I have a problem with your assumptions. It's just as easy to assume the other way if you only use partial information.

DamonS wrote:
Assuming every person in the CS has equal interest in the defense of the CS, half the soldiers should be men, and half women. The folks at PB could *use* that! And they sorta do (depictions of cs troopers do have women and men in them... too bad it falls down once you get to high command).

Again that's making assumptions not yet in evidence. In the CS military duty could be required for every male but optional for females. Or Males could just sign up more than girls. Like our own army. You're in a fictional perfect world.

Sadly that doesn't exist. Exactly 50/50 numbers would never happen in any profession other than by pure coincidence. ANd the millitary just appeals to males in a wider range than females. Look at any standing army on the planet. You can't say the CS is sexist aginst females with out proof that it is. Lessor female troops could just mean the females in thre CS don't want their hind quarters gnawed off by a dragon.

DamonS wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Even in today's society many "Enlightened" Nations don't allow women in front line combat, even though they're allowed in the millitary. Correspondingly, they have fewer women generals. Can you be in the army and be a woman? Yes. Can you make general and be a woman? Yes. Nothing's stopping you but in some armies it's harder.

And that would be the fun of making a CS that doesn't have that flaw. It would be quite something else! Historically, men did the fighting, then again, historically we didn't have power armors that made the physical strength of the soldier largely irrelevant. And when the chips are down enough, historically, it wasn't the men who fought, it was *everyone*. Sci fi battlefield plus chips are down means.... Everyone fights.

Again, you're talking about a 'perfect world" where there are no outside influences or cultural norms. Sadly we have culture and out side influences so the decisions are never that black and white.

DamonS wrote:

PepsiJedi wrote:
Bradford is the second most powerful guy in the CS and does what he wants even disobeying Prosek when ever he wants. So it's arguable that he's equal to power in all but name.

It's also easy to gloss over the fact the woman general fields one of if not the biggest CS standing army's from it's biggest state out side of Chi Town itself. (( You have to add in the Animal corps, but hey, if you were going to war, wouldn't you add them all in?))

I think there's a misunderstanding here on what Lone Star is. It's a giant research facility. It's so fortified because it's isolated. Bradford isn't the #2 person in the CS, he's not even on the Executive counsel. He's the #1 guy in Lone Star, but outside of it, his influence is much much less (not that he cares). He gets to do what he wants... in Lone Star. Kashbrook is on the council, she's closer to #2, but she's not even #2. #2 is Joseph Prosek. #3.... probably the overall head of the CS military (what's his name, Underhill? Can't find my sourcebook one.).

Your misunderstanding what I'm saying. Bradford is number two in POWER. You never hear of Kashbrook doing anything. Joseph is the propiganda guy. The Annikin to his dad's Palpitine.

Bradford still does what he wants, and Lone star is much more than a research facility, it's a massive massive underground base the likes of which we've never seen here in the real world. There's an entire field army stationed there (( Of which what? two field armys were mobilized aginst tolkeen?)) And on top of the field army there's the dog boy corps, which pump the numbers up even more. then there's the bears and cats and kill hounds and and and and.... not to mention it's practically unassaible even if you didn't have an army to protect it. It's underground. Once they lock up, the CS don't really have the ability to get in anyway. (( you can bet bradford had that back door that they came in though in MoD sealed up.))

Bradford does what he wants, breaks CS law and is sitting on their second hbiggest ANYTHING this side of Chi town. Hince he's the second most powerful.

Not the second in command. Noone's saying that, but command and power are vastly different things.

Look at the CS vs FQ. The CS have like 20 times the manpower but look how that went.

DamonS wrote:
Anyways, doesn't change nothin even if she were #2 (which she aint). You look at the big picture... as in the big picture that is depicted, which is 90% of CS generals are white men.....

But that's numbers not in evidence. We can claim a white woman and a black general straight off the bat. With out a listing it could be something more like 50% We just don't know. And even then those are what's diplicted specifically by name. Not an overall accounting.

DamonS wrote:
for no good reason... perhaps except for the fact that the USA is the same way.

White people make up the majority of the US populas.. when the rifts come they kill across the board, so in the US, the survivors are going to be mostly white people.

That is a good reason. What other reason would there be?

DamonS wrote:But the USA has race and gender biases, and the CS seems to have the same level of them.

I still fail to see your proof that the CS has that level of race and gender bias. You're saying it's so, doesn't make it so. We need proof. numbers. Hard facts! *Waves hand in the air* FACTS!

DamonS wrote: This is ok, but it would make the CS a little more compelling if they had completely overcome racial and gender bias, and the depiction showed it, and how different The World would look if it truly was race and gender neutral. It would look wierd! For starters, there'd be women everywhere! Secondly, most of them would only be of average appearance! Loni Cashbrook, age 48, (Looks 30), THAT'S NOT A GENERAL, THAT'S DEMI MOORE! Career Military is more age:48, (Looks 60 with all the scars!). Lets be honest, the one female general depicted in the CS is less a character and more the fantasy of middle-aged military buffs who dream of a hot blonde who loves WWII trivia as much as they do....

Meh. I don't see the female general as a barbie fluff bunny for geeks. In my game she's intelligent and kicks alot of ass. Our Mercs have delt with her before and she don't play. It says more about you if you see her like that than the books because the book does not deplict her as a sex bunny in any way.

DamonS wrote:On the other hand, I like hot Hot Blondes who love WWII trivia as much as I do.... but it's a little transparent when all my erotic fanfiction involves them falling in love with 30-something science fiction geeks....

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Here, you're assuming. By saying this you're assuming that the cross section of people we see out of helmets is representative of the entire army.

Yes. This is the most important aspect of this. You hold the books responsible for what *is* depicted. If all the generals depicted are men, then you assume all the generals are men. There is no other way to do it.

But not all the generals are men. Nor are they all white. Nor are they all white men. Your assuming a majority based on a limited cross section. Such assumptions are frought with folly and based on facts not fully in evidence.

If Kev and crew come out and say "The CS is 90% white males" Then it's so.

Saying "I don't see many black people in Perez's comic strip"" Does not make it fact for the world.

DamonS wrote:It's directly analogous to me making a Los Angeles cop show where all the criminals depicted were <Insert ethnic group here>. It's incorrect, and not less so if I say "Oh, in my series, there are criminals of all types, I'm only showing the <insert ethnic group> ones"

That's the thing. Just like the show, you're looking at a minute cross section. (( The troops pausing for pics to be drawn into books)) and saying that represents the whole. There in lies the folly.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:White people make up the majority of the US populas.. when the rifts come they kill across the board, so in the US, the survivors are going to be mostly white people.

That is a good reason. What other reason would there be?

Actually, this is an interesting point... demographics.

New Thread.

Oh. Let me say, I agree Africa was really just a waste, when so much more could have been done with it. But it has been a long time since I've read it. But for the most part the "Whole 4 horseman thing" overshadowed everything else, I also fail to see why we only got one empire and nothing else. If for no other reason then South Africa should have had MD tech,and to my thinking lots of it should have survived.

you know, I did a whole analysis of CS notables, but I'll abbreviate it.

For five years (1990-1995), the only CS noteworthy people depicted were white guys. All of them. Also all of the "Helmet-less" CS troops. All white, all male.

With CS War machine and Lone Star (1995-1996), it was expanded, and now we could compare generals. Same rank, high up in the CS.... the problem...

Generals is a good tool.
1) they're powerful and influential
2) There are enough of them to get a reasonable sample size.

All the generals who were drawn... white. The others who aren't drawn, mostly male (one female is mentioned)

Gen Marshall Cabot
Gen Ross Underhill
Gen Charles Baxter
Gen Loni Kashbrook
Gen Apollo Lucitonis
Gen Thomas Lopez
Gen Sean Oulette
Gen Reed (Gender unspecified)

--- So on gender, it's absolutely stilted. 6/1 On race, very probably so (at least the only ones worthy of pictures are white)

Then we get another general in Lone Star

General Ivan Kalpov, yet, another, white guy.
And Kashbrook is drawn as a Supermodel blonde woman (now we have more white generals, and a 7-1 ratio of men to women).

By the time of Seige of Tolkeen (Rifts is Ten years old at this point)
In CS Overkill we get

General Miceander Drogue (White guy with a heckuva name)
General Jericho Holmes, yep, after ten years, the CS finally is depicted as having a black general.. sorta.. No picture or description of him is given in Cs overkill.. I presume it gives a picture in another SoT book, but in general (pardon the pun), the SoT books were reall bad! And I couldn't take 'em.

So, on the one hand, the generals are absolutely gender biased. As for race... well, for starters, CS Generals are mentioned in order of importance. And as you count down in order of importance, Gen Cabot, mentioned from the get-go! As is Underhill! Both so important they're statted TWICE and labeled not under "generals" but under "The Prosek Regime"! The years go on... Palladium feels the need to mention less important generals, like Baxter, on to Kashbrook (She's big in Lone Star... but Baxter can over-rule her on some matters).... then Kalpov (whos' really not that big of a deal.. subordinate to Kashbrook)... then we're getting to Drogue (in charge of a major military operation, useful for that, but Kashbrook runs an entire CS state, she's a bigger deal and was mentioned earlier)... and finally, we're well into a minor, low-selling, small part of a series of books.....

And only then do we get to a single general who's not white.

If there's a better analysis, please do it. But do it exhaustively.

I think this comes from the writers and artists of palladium just unconsciously working from their innate biases. Most palladium books seem to be written from purely this is a fun idea stance rather then a realistic look at what the world be like in that situation. Kevin has said that he aims for fun, and what he called the "wow factor" over seriousness.

If you like a more realistic game then just include stuff like these issues in your own take on rifts.

I'd say that in some ways there's just as much racism in Rifts as there is today. As Damon S. points out, the ratios speak for themselves.

Here's the thing:
There are racist schmoes alive today who believe that blacks and other minorities aren't really human.
I've heard a number of people say things like:
"Well, I can believe that blacks evolved, but I think that white people were created by God."
or
"I think that blacks and whites evolved seperately, from different species".

Take that kind of ignorant attitude and set it in a world where there actually ARE non-human humanoids wandering around, and it would become even more widespread.

If the human-looking guys with green skin, or purple skin are D-Bees, why not the human-looking guys with black skin?
If the human-looking guys with pointy ears aren't human, why are the guys with epicanthal folds?

The CS would fight this sort of racism, I believe, pushing the idea that we're all humans (everybody that the CS says is human) and that we all need to unite in order to defeat our enemies, overcoming our differences in order to keep our race united.
But there would still be a large number of racists in the CS territories who believe the old "only white people are people" crap.
This would make it more difficult for a non-white people to get ahead politically, even in a military dictatorship like the CS.

DamonS wrote:you know, I did a whole analysis of CS notables, but I'll abbreviate it.

Which leads to inaccuracies.. but yeah I didn't look though 50 books either.

DamonS wrote:
For five years (1990-1995), the only CS noteworthy people depicted were white guys. All of them. Also all of the "Helmet-less" CS troops. All white, all male.

With CS War machine and Lone Star (1995-1996), it was expanded, and now we could compare generals. Same rank, high up in the CS.... the problem...

Generals is a good tool.
1) they're powerful and influential
2) There are enough of them to get a reasonable sample size.

All the generals who were drawn... white. The others who aren't drawn, mostly male (one female is mentioned)

See this is where you start loosing stuff.

DamonS wrote:Gen Marshall Cabot
Gen Ross Underhill
Gen Charles Baxter
Gen Loni Kashbrook
Gen Apollo Lucitonis
Gen Thomas Lopez
Gen Sean Oulette
Gen Reed (Gender unspecified)

--- So on gender, it's absolutely stilted. 6/1 On race, very probably so (at least the only ones worthy of pictures are white)

Then we get another general in Lone Star

General Ivan Kalpov, yet, another, white guy.
And Kashbrook is drawn as a Supermodel blonde woman (now we have more white generals, and a 7-1 ratio of men to women).

Ok I'm gonna interject here. Starting with my RuE I went a looking and things arn't quite as bad as they've been made to look.

Ross Underhill:: Male: White
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black
Charles Reed Baxter, General of the army. Male: Race UNKNOWN.
Marshal Cabot Male: White
Loni Kashbrook Female: White. (( and for the record, I looked her up last night, she's a 28 year vetran who's heralded as the ONLY person, in the entire CS that could pull Lone star together and make it fly right. Somethig 4 generals before her failed to do, like wise no where in the entire 3 or 4 pages on her does it say anything about her being a super modle blond other than a PB of 18 and having admierers, but then it says the same thing about Jericho Holmes... and he's not a bunny fru fru.))
Apollo Lucitonis. Male: UNKNOWN
Thomas Lopez Male: Gonna go out on a risky limb here and guess Latino but in truth it's another Unknown
Judge Bradley Martindale Male UNKNOWN
Tyer Wilpepper Male. Unknown.
Dr Victoria Lamsport Female Unknown
Dr Thomas Clinton Male Unknown
Col LJ Klonick Unknown Unknown
Professor Carla Korehura (Sp? Can't read my own notes)) Female Unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown
Carol Black Female Unknown.
Desmond Bradford Male Black
Ivan Kalpov Male White
Dr Laura Cunningham Female White
Dr Ammanda Santiago Female Latino
Admirl Rene LeBlanc Male Unknown (( pic makes him look black on one side, white on the other))
Vice Ad Nathan Copeland Male Unknown, (( Pic could be Latino, White or Asian.))
Fletcher Sanders Male Unknown.
Michander Drogue Male Black
Kira Moss Female Unknown.

So that's 5 that are shown to be clearly Caucasian
Then there's 3 are shown to be African American.
Then there are 2 to be guessed as Latino
Then... here's the kicker. 14 Unknown to ethnic type. More than the others put together.

Even taking the ones we know. Fully half of them arn't white. Your numbers don't hold up when you look at the wider cross section of named CS members over the rank of Captain.

15 males
7 females
2 unknown gender

So even there, fully half of the named personalitys above the rank of captain are female. with two unknowns.

So, yes, there seems to be a proclivity to white males, but it's no where near, no where NEAR the way you're trying to present it. Half the ones we know are white. Not 9 out of 10. Half are males. Neither of which is what you're trying to present.

I could give a list like this....

Loni Kashbrook Female: White.
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black
Charles Reed Baxter, General of the army. Male: Race UNKNOWN.
Judge Bradley Martindale Male UNKNOWN
Tyer Wilpepper Male. Unknown.
Dr Victoria Lamsport Female Unknown
Dr Thomas Clinton Male Unknown
Col LJ Klonick Unknown Unknown
Professor Carla Korehura (Sp? Can't read my own notes)) Female Unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown
Carol Black Female Unknown.
Desmond Bradford Male Black
Dr Laura Cunningham Female White
Dr Ammanda Santiago Female Latino
Michander Drogue Male Black
Kira Moss Female Unknown.


Which shows 7 males 7 females

2 white
3 black
2 Latino

But... as this list was chosen to (( Drasticly)) Proive a point, And show what I wanted it to.. suddenly the CS look fully racially and gender non bias....

See.. that's what you did with your list. You listed off some guys names. Skipped most of the gals, and just went "oh well they're all white"

Which you didn't have in evidence.

It's skewed data.

DamonS wrote:
By the time of Seige of Tolkeen (Rifts is Ten years old at this point)
In CS Overkill we get

General Miceander Drogue (White guy with a heckuva name)
General Jericho Holmes, yep, after ten years, the CS finally is depicted as having a black general.. sorta.. No picture or description of him is given in Cs overkill.. I presume it gives a picture in another SoT book, but in general (pardon the pun), the SoT books were reall bad! And I couldn't take 'em.

So, on the one hand, the generals are absolutely gender biased. As for race... well, for starters, CS Generals are mentioned in order of importance.

Already have addressed your purposefully skewed data on gender and the fact that the vast majority of race is "unknown" I'll step in here to go "WHat do you mean "For startes the CS Generals are mentioned in order of importance"

It's never said that. Ever. Nor has it implied that.

Kashbrook is a 28 year vetran and her write up says about 50 times how brilliant she is and how she's done the impossible in her command how she's strict but tactically brilliant, ect ect ect on for pages and pages.

Holmes... once defended an out post by himself when the troops flead. And in ONE DAY was credited with 230 kills, by himSELF. Alone.. aginst 300. Oh my god... In his career he's got over 1000 kills documented. That's uncanny. The highest sniper kill ratio in the US army for confirmed kills is 93. Holmes more than doubled that in one day. With 10 times that many and still active.. Just as with snipers, your "Confirmed" kills make up a ratio of your "actual" kills, sometimes half, sometimes far less. (( there's no true number to multiply by as it differs)) But it's safe to say Holmes has killed many more that wern't directly confirmed to his vibroblade or pistol. (( and no those 1000 don't count the ones he sent troops to kill. The book claims a PERSONAL 1000+ for him.))

Holmes also did the impossible and lead a field army though the Hivelands and came back in the final hour to WIN the Tolkeen war.


Now... saying the most important are listed first, just seems silly.

DamonS wrote:
And as you count down in order of importance, Gen Cabot, mentioned from the get-go! As is Underhill! Both so important they're statted TWICE and labeled not under "generals" but under "The Prosek Regime"! The years go on... Palladium feels the need to mention less important generals, like Baxter,

Less important? Baxter is one step under Prosek and general of the armys. There's only one. Him.

DamonS wrote:
on to Kashbrook (She's big in Lone Star... but Baxter can over-rule her on some matters).... then Kalpov (whos' really not that big of a deal.. subordinate to Kashbrook)... then we're getting to Drogue (in charge of a major military operation, useful for that, but Kashbrook runs an entire CS state, she's a bigger deal and was mentioned earlier)... and finally, we're well into a minor, low-selling, small part of a series of books.....

And only then do we get to a single general who's not white.

If there's a better analysis, please do it. But do it exhaustively.

Ok, so I sat down and looked though the RUE the CSWC, CS Navy and the Tolkeen war books.

It took me a while (( That's alot of pages)) but just doing that totally blows your stuff out of the water.

Yes.. Technically you're correct. It shows 5 white people to 5 other ethnic types so it's slanted a bit more to whites, with blacks comig in second and Latino's third. (( but then, that's about where our current population numbers are.))

The males and females in the military, yes the males have twice as many as the females, but 2 to 1 ratio of males to females in an armed forces is AMAZING. And far more than we have today.

But basicly the "unknowns' Have it. There's alot we can't account for and what we CAN account for doesn't back up the Super Nazi Regime you seem to be pimping for them.

Again, the books go out of their way to say how the CS hate DBees, how the Dog boys are seen a animals and never equal, how the PsyStalkers are second class citizens, but never, once can be shown to say they're sexist or racist in the books.

I just don't see them saying the other 100 times and leaving out sexisim and racisim if it's a MAJOR problem.

Sure.. some people are going to be idiots.. but then some people kill you for what imaginary guy in the sky you believe in. Idiots abound.

but your average CS citizen on the street, in the books isn't made out to be a bigot or misogynist.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ross Underhill:: Male: White
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black
Charles Baxter, Male: Race UNKNOWN.
Marshal Cabot Male: White
Loni Kashbrook Female: White.
Apollo Lucitonis. Male: UNKNOWN
Thomas Lopez Male: Unknown
Judge Bradley Martindale Male UNKNOWN
Tyer Wilpepper Male. Unknown.
Dr Victoria Lamsport Female Unknown
Dr Thomas Clinton Male Unknown
Col LJ Klonick Unknown Unknown
Professor Carla Korehura (Sp? Can't read my own notes)) Female Unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown
Carol Black Female Unknown.
Desmond Bradford Male Black
Ivan Kalpov Male White
Dr Laura Cunningham Female White
Dr Ammanda Santiago Female Latino
Admirl Rene LeBlanc Male Unknown (( pic makes him look black on one side, white on the other))
Vice Ad Nathan Copeland Male Unknown, (( Pic could be Latino, White or Asian.))
Fletcher Sanders Male Unknown.
Michander Drogue Male Black
Kira Moss Female Unknown.

<Looks at list..... as the CS is a military dictatorship, he first removes all civilians. Desmond Bradford is possibly the CS's most powerful civilian, but he's still a civvy.>

<Then removes all people below the rank of full General>

<Fixes Drogue's race, a white guy drawn with half his face in shadow is meant to look demonic or dramatic, not black>

<Then throws in another jab about Kashbrook being a supermodel. Never said she was an incompetent supermodel, only that she's depicted looking like a supermodel>

Ross Underhill:: Male: White
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black (Where is he pictured again?)
Baxter Male: unknown.
Marshal Cabot Male: White
Loni Kashbrook Female: White, and FABULOUS (Look at those cheekbones!)
Apollo Lucitonis. Male: unknown
Thomas Lopez Male: unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown.
Ivan Kalpov Male White
Admirl Rene LeBlanc Male White guy in shadow (he's French)
Michander Drogue Male (White guy in shadow).

Not lookin good..... And all my cuts were things that should have had no effect (military vs Civilian and based on Rank, and we're still left with a pretty large sample size) and then something occurrs to me.....

Aren't there 2 Proseks involved somehow, both white guys? Why aren't they on your list? I didn't put 'em on mine because I was looking at generals (See, I deleted some pretty big white guys in the name of making a pound-for-pound comparison).

Now if I do do the opposite to the Pepsi list, (Cut out all the military personnel), I get the opposite, where the group is primarily female and has a lot of non-whites... however, in the CS... the military is in charge, not the civilians. Isn't sociology fun?

1) Choose how you make your list
2) Make cuts that shouldn't matter in order to check that they actually don't
3) Conclude the CSA is just like the USA in terms of military disposition... Which really isn't as much fun as it could be.
4) Make jokes about Loni Kashbrook.

Now I don't have it, but is Kashbrook in the swimsuit editions of The Rifter?

um i don't mean this in a condesending way, But thier is no way race could be an issue in the CS. Why breeding number, you have a generaly isolated group, with a closed number of breeding stock. Think about how few people where left during and after the dark age of man...Im geussing most people in the CS are shades of cream and tan...With little hint of ethnicity (sp?) left.

DamonS wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ross Underhill:: Male: White
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black
Charles Baxter, Male: Race UNKNOWN.
Marshal Cabot Male: White
Loni Kashbrook Female: White.
Apollo Lucitonis. Male: UNKNOWN
Thomas Lopez Male: Unknown
Judge Bradley Martindale Male UNKNOWN
Tyer Wilpepper Male. Unknown.
Dr Victoria Lamsport Female Unknown
Dr Thomas Clinton Male Unknown
Col LJ Klonick Unknown Unknown
Professor Carla Korehura (Sp? Can't read my own notes)) Female Unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown
Carol Black Female Unknown.
Desmond Bradford Male Black
Ivan Kalpov Male White
Dr Laura Cunningham Female White
Dr Ammanda Santiago Female Latino
Admirl Rene LeBlanc Male Unknown (( pic makes him look black on one side, white on the other))
Vice Ad Nathan Copeland Male Unknown, (( Pic could be Latino, White or Asian.))
Fletcher Sanders Male Unknown.
Michander Drogue Male Black
Kira Moss Female Unknown.

<Looks at list..... as the CS is a military dictatorship, he first removes all civilians. Desmond Bradford is possibly the CS's most powerful civilian, but he's still a civvy.>

<Then removes all people below the rank of full General>

<Fixes Drogue's race, a white guy drawn with half his face in shadow is meant to look demonic or dramatic, not black>

<Then throws in another jab about Kashbrook being a supermodel. Never said she was an incompetent supermodel, only that she's depicted looking like a supermodel>

Ross Underhill:: Male: White
Jericicho Holmes Male: Black (Where is he pictured again?)
Baxter Male: unknown.
Marshal Cabot Male: White
Loni Kashbrook Female: White, and FABULOUS (Look at those cheekbones!)
Apollo Lucitonis. Male: unknown
Thomas Lopez Male: unknown
General Ford Unknown Unknown.
Ivan Kalpov Male White
Admirl Rene LeBlanc Male White guy in shadow (he's French)
Michander Drogue Male (White guy in shadow).

Not lookin good..... And all my cuts were things that should have had no effect (military vs Civilian and based on Rank, and we're still left with a pretty large sample size) and then something occurrs to me.....

Aren't there 2 Proseks involved somehow, both white guys? Why aren't they on your list? I didn't put 'em on mine because I was looking at generals (See, I deleted some pretty big white guys in the name of making a pound-for-pound comparison).

Now if I do do the opposite to the Pepsi list, (Cut out all the military personnel), I get the opposite, where the group is primarily female and has a lot of non-whites... however, in the CS... the military is in charge, not the civilians. Isn't sociology fun?

1) Choose how you make your list
2) Make cuts that shouldn't matter in order to check that they actually don't
3) Conclude the CSA is just like the USA in terms of military disposition... Which really isn't as much fun as it could be.
4) Make jokes about Loni Kashbrook.

Now I don't have it, but is Kashbrook in the swimsuit editions of The Rifter?

You can manipulate the data if you want, but if you sit down and actually look at the books, instead of taking a minute cross section and trying to manipulate it, it comes out alot less slanted than you want,

But then the point of your arguement is that it IS slanted. You could just stop at the prosecks if you want. Yeah they're white. But the fact is the CS isn't as race or gender minded as you are making out.


That being said. If you want them to be racial bigots as well as species bigots, it's your game.


My CS doesn't go PLASMA RIFLE on every little DBee child it sees. I think my CS are in the lighter side of gray than some peoples here but that's MY GAME.

My point in this thread is that the CS arn't quite like you're trying to say they are by manipulating the data. That's all.

Play um how ever you like. Just know that view isnt universal.

DamonS wrote:<Looks at list..... as the CS is a military dictatorship, he first removes all civilians. Desmond Bradford is possibly the CS's most powerful civilian, but he's still a civvy.>

Desmond Bradford may be a civilian, but he holds probably more power than all the other generals.

<Then removes all people below the rank of full General>

Why? You just said CS is a military dictatorship, now you're removing people that are actually in the military from the list.

I'm gonna have to go with Pepsi on this one, you have to take the CS as a whole, which isn't what you're doing.

dark brandon wrote:

DamonS wrote:<Looks at list..... as the CS is a military dictatorship, he first removes all civilians. Desmond Bradford is possibly the CS's most powerful civilian, but he's still a civvy.>

Desmond Bradford may be a civilian, but he holds probably more power than all the other generals.

<Then removes all people below the rank of full General>

Why? You just said CS is a military dictatorship, now you're removing people that are actually in the military from the list.

I'm gonna have to go with Pepsi on this one, you have to take the CS as a whole, which isn't what you're doing.

\

I believe that his point is that a bunch of old white men are in charge; that there isn't significant racial diversity among those actually holding the POWER in the CS.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You can manipulate the data if you want, but if you sit down and actually look at the books, instead of taking a minute cross section and trying to manipulate it, it comes out alot less slanted than you want,

But then the point of your arguement is that it IS slanted. You could just stop at the prosecks if you want. Yeah they're white. But the fact is the CS isn't as race or gender minded as you are making out.

I'm not manipulating data, I'm choosing a level slice near the top of analogous people. I even told how I generated my list (Generals), and with one sentence, anyone could reproduce my list and come to the same conclusions I did.

I'm still trying to figure out, however, exactly how the "Pepsi Jedi" list works. It's got generals, and admirals (I agree, these are analogous, so adding admirals to my list is valid, I just didn't have the CS Navy book... though it makes my conclusions stronger, not weaker). However..

Why is the lowest ranked person on your list a Lt? Why not Major? Or even Private? Why is there only one Lt? It's suspicious when your list goes to a person who makes your point then stops for no good reason, especially when Lt. Carol Black looks really out of place. What kind of "Cross Section" of an Army includes a bunch of generals/admirals and ONE lieutenant?

Why is Col Klonic mentioned, but not Col Lyboc?

Why does it cut across mostly (Generals and admirals) but when it gets to Lone Star inexplicably cuts down (Bradford's research staff at Lone Star).

Most importantly, how did you make it in the first place? Did you just flip through books and pull out whomever popped up? If so, why aren't The Proseks on it? It certainly seemed to mention every non-white male person in the CS, but seems to omit a bunch of the white guys. The PepsiJedi list is not a *Cross section*, it seems to cut across and down, seeking non-whites (BRadford), but not mentioning some very noteworthy whites (Proseks). It goes down the command chain seeking out non-whites (Lt Carol Black), and then stops.

I mentioned why I didn't include The Proseks (not generals). Why didn't you?

Who's manipulating and who's trying to actually make a cross-section as close to the top as possible while still getting enough numbers to make a conclusion?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I believe that his point is that a bunch of old white men are in charge; that there isn't significant racial diversity among those actually holding the POWER in the CS.

Except that he discounts one of the most powerful (Bradford) from his statment.

Also to note: Just because a picture is drawn white, doesn't mean nessissarily they are white themselves.

For example: PG 180 of The Book of Magic shows and Nazca line drawer. While the person (through the clothing) is obviously native american in origin, without it he would come off as white.

I don't believe any Human mentioned is mentioned as being Caucasion. Even the full body picture of Joseph could be taken as mexican. The pictures drawn are black and white.

You can find a picture of Jericho Holmes on pg 244 of RUE.

On the same page you have Joseph, who could have some indian or mexican in his ancistory.

Another Example is me. I look white, but I am 50% mexican. I even have a german last name.

In otherwords it seems many pictures a person is gonna derive the information from them they choose to do so.

DamonS wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You can manipulate the data if you want, but if you sit down and actually look at the books, instead of taking a minute cross section and trying to manipulate it, it comes out alot less slanted than you want,

But then the point of your arguement is that it IS slanted. You could just stop at the prosecks if you want. Yeah they're white. But the fact is the CS isn't as race or gender minded as you are making out.

I'm not manipulating data, I'm choosing a level slice near the top of analogous people. I even told how I generated my list (Generals), and with one sentence, anyone could reproduce my list and come to the same conclusions I did.

I'm still trying to figure out, however, exactly how the "Pepsi Jedi" list works. It's got generals, and admirals (I agree, these are analogous, so adding admirals to my list is valid, I just didn't have the CS Navy book... though it makes my conclusions stronger, not weaker). However..

Why is the lowest ranked person on your list a Lt? Why not Major? Or even Private? Why is there only one Lt? It's suspicious when your list goes to a person who makes your point then stops for no good reason, especially when Lt. Carol Black looks really out of place. What kind of "Cross Section" of an Army includes a bunch of generals/admirals and ONE lieutenant?

Why is Col Klonic mentioned, but not Col Lyboc?

Why does it cut across mostly (Generals and admirals) but when it gets to Lone Star inexplicably cuts down (Bradford's research staff at Lone Star).

Most importantly, how did you make it in the first place? Did you just flip through books and pull out whomever popped up? If so, why aren't The Proseks on it? It certainly seemed to mention every non-white male person in the CS, but seems to omit a bunch of the white guys. The PepsiJedi list is not a *Cross section*, it seems to cut across and down, seeking non-whites (BRadford), but not mentioning some very noteworthy whites (Proseks). It goes down the command chain seeking out non-whites (Lt Carol Black), and then stops.

I mentioned why I didn't include The Proseks (not generals). Why didn't you?

Who's manipulating and who's trying to actually make a cross-section as close to the top as possible while still getting enough numbers to make a conclusion?

Actually yeah that's pretty much exactly what I did. Sat down in the hallway at 3 in the morning and flipped though a half dozen books and jotted down names of anyone above captain rank I came across in the RUE, the CSWC CS Navy and the Tolkeen series. My list is not 100% of every one mentioned Im very sure. Nor is it ment to exclude.

You were talking about the military and CS being racist. My list, even in part, shows that it's not. At least not to the tune you're making out.

As for why I didn't put the PRosecks in there, is they arn't activly generaling the wars. No more than you'd say George bush is a general.

Though technically he's the commander in cheif and can give them all orders, I don't think anyone conciders him an army guy.

But yes the proseks hold the ultimate power.

just like Bradford and the Ministry Doctors and stuff hold power. That's why they were included.

They weren't excluded as cost, they are the leaders and thus, as such and universally known, need not be listed in the accounting. it's the ones that don't sit at the tip of your tongue that you can manipulate and stuff that people need explination on.

But no. My list probably isn't complete, but the thing is, mine doesn't have to be. Your list was cherry picked to prove racism and sexism. Just looking at my list with latino's and africian Americans and women, it proves, that yours is incorrect. Even if there are more white guys I've missed, the point is made that others are there and in much larger numbers than you lead to belive.

As an aside. Going "Dr Bradford isn't Military he's just a civy" Is misleading. Have you read the LS book? Or MoD. Especially MoD which is cannon now. He commands the military left right and center up to and including the murder of officers, the promotion of rank and the assignment of missions. It could be argued that he is in fact a military doctor but has "surpassed' Rank in that he runs the LS facility and is one of the most powerful people in the entire CS. You constantly discount him as a nothing.

Saving the two Prosecks himself, whom would you say has more Power than Bradford?


And Dark Brandon makes an excellent point. With out text saying "WHITE, BLACK, LATINO, ASIAN" The drawings are open to alot of inturpertation. For instance one of the guys I think looks Africian Americain you claim is "Just white guy in shadow" Alot of the art is subjective that way.

~~~


In the end. I still say that the CS don't have rapid racism or Sexism to the tune you're implying. It might be there but it's not a 'huge sweeping problem'. If it were, it'd be in one of the 30 world books or source books or something. At least ONE reference you could point to to prove your case. And with the dozens and dozens of instances of human supremacy and hatred of DBees and seeing Psi stalkers as second class citizens and Dog boys as glorified pets, you don't ever see the racism or sexism card played.

THAT is what I look at.

cutlass wrote:Ughhh, bloody hell.
Look: just take your brown crayon and color them and be done with it.

No really, do you have less fun gaming because of this?

well, yes. You just ruined my rifts book. That makes me sad...