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so since the book that contains this info will not be out any time soon, i was wondering how everyone runs magic in the beyond the supernatural 2 ed..??.

I use Mystic study from H.U.

CaptRory wrote:I modified the sorceror from Nightbane. Reduced PPE total and made starting spells the 9 or so Core Spells listed in Palladium Fantasy plus a handful more (# randomly determined).

That's pretty funny, since the Sorcerer is really just an Arcanist with more P.P.E. and the ability to sense ley lines.

well, from a setting standpoint, i can make a few suggestions.

1.) non-ritual magic is practically non-existent. things like fireballs and the like are a lost art for most. things like golems or animating skeletons, which can be done via a ritual, are rare but available. this is because rituals can be written down and rediscovered, but non-ritual spells usually need an experienced teacher to show someone how to do it.

2.) most rituals require elaborate preparations. the lower ambient PPE of the setting means that rituals will need to be at ley line nexi, involve animal sacrifice, or require multiple participants all contributing their PPE. or all the above. usually these rituals involve elaborate 'plays' and speeches and such, due to their having been rediscovered or preserved from ancient sources, which often had a flair for the dramatic. this is especially true of rituals drawn from cult sources, which usually mixed in drama and things like chants to keep members involved, even when the spell itself does not require such.

3.) anyone who can do non-ritual magic will usually be using a formula approach, having learned gestures and 'words of power' from old tomes that they believe create the effect. (little more than a non-standard ritual). plus the effects of the spell will rarely be impressive, not much more powerful than psychics. plus without any organized school of magic, most spellcasters will be reliant purely on memory (limiting the # of spells they know), or will be lugging around tomes and books with which they reference prior to and during the casting process. some may even consider the book, not themselves, as the source of the magic. (a spellcaster paging through the necronomicon looking for the right spell while other investigators/slayers hold off a demon should be a common theme. )

4.) most cults and spellcasters will be ignorant of the nature of magic. they perpetuate the mystic arts through rote and tradition, not really with any understanding of why things work. a cult might only know that if they sacrifice a girl at full moon at a specific site they can summon a demon, they won't nessicarily know the site is a ley line nexus, that a full moon means high leyline activity, or that the sacrifice releases PPE that can be used to open a portal. they might have an idea of whay leylines are and the effects of the moon and stars on them, and might know that 'life force' helps the magic ritual, but the details are not well known. they just know it works.

5.) investigators on the other hand probably will know a bit about magic. they will know about leylines and how to go about finding them. they'll know that the moon and stars can effect them. and they'll know that life force fuels magic and leylines boost it. they too will not know the exact process though. they'll just be better read on the subject.

6.) magic would be effected like psionics when around people who doubt, or are actively testing it. so a negapsychic would be next t immune to magic, much like he is to psi.

Atramentus™ wrote:glitterboy2098, all I can say is wow, now I have nothing to add to this conversation.

plenty left to say.

What schools of magic are the most common, what are the rarest? (i'd say things like temporal magic are ultra-rare, myself)

how easy is it to learn a spell from dusty old tomes? do you need to have the actual book, or can a high quality scan suffice? (easier to search a .PDF on a PDA in battle than it is to search through big books after all)

what kinds of rituals are cults most likely to use?

should magic spells require more PPE to cast if taken from a non-BTS source? (less ambient PPE, thus you need more PPE at casting to catalyze the result?)

how many spells/rituals can a person learn on their own without an experianced teacher?

i perfer not to done done with any type of magic- just make certin ones more rare. i was more looking for a down grade rule with some idea of how to use the new scale ( the one they use for ISP) to indacate how much a mage may have.

captramses wrote:

jade von delioch wrote:i perfer not to done done with any type of magic- just make certin ones more rare. i was more looking for a down grade rule with some idea of how to use the new scale ( the one they use for ISP) to indacate how much a mage may have.

Are you asking for a general downward conversion or are you thinking about something specific??

nothing specific that i can think of.. just a general conversion.

MindMouse wrote:If I may glitterboy2098;

1.) non-ritual magic is practically non-existent. things like fireballs and the like are a lost art for most. things like golems or animating skeletons, which can be done via a ritual, are rare but available. this is because rituals can be written down and rediscovered, but non-ritual spells usually need an experienced teacher to show someone how to do it.

I do not beleive that non-ritual magic should be gone, just very rare. So that when a PC sees a wizards torch off a bolt of lightning they should be thinking about leaving the scene.

actually i never said it should be gone, just very very rare.

again, rituals can be written down and easily copied by those who don't have experiance. you just follow the instructions.

but a non-ritual usually involves a degree of internalized skill that can't be written down, and must be taught by a living practitioner. and those living practitioners are rare.

what little 'non-ritual' magic that is around tends to be highly 'formulaic', using what amounts to a personal ritual to achieve the results. for example, a mage in ancient times may have merely cast a fireball. but a mage in modern times might have to intone some 'mystic words' and make a few hand signs to achieve the same results. this is because the intonation and hand signs are a way of 'training the mind' to 'summon Chi' or some such, achieving the channeling of PPE without actually knowing what they are doing. this kind of magic would be easy to write down and pass on without personal training, and thus easier to discover and relearn.
in many cases, such 'formula' methods may have started as a misunderstanding of an ancient lesson, with the student not understanding that control of magic is internal and assuming that it was the signs and words that create the spell, not the persons internal energies. then the student goes onto to teach others this flawed view. the words and signs may have originally been merely a flashy show to make the magic seem more impressive, but through enough 'formula' misunderstandings, it becomes a way of externalizing something that is internal. sorta like how some people need music playing to write a paper. the music has no direct connection to the writing, but it helps get the person in the right mindset to write.

I think that a wizard would knew a great deal about ley lines and nexus points I also don't think that she would share that wisdom very easly, after all knowledge is power and no self respecting mage would want to share the ammo.

a Player character would. players tend to be investigators, educated people involved with the supernatural. likewise a major villain might, for the same reason.

but a teenager that found a old tome somewhere and learned rituals and spells out of it may not know about things like leylines and conjunctions and such. at best, they saw the words in the book and looked them up on Wikipedia. they would lack the understanding to actually make use of the knowledge, and would often get the highly incorrect version of the information.


alot of this breaks down to how magic should be handled. i see magic in BTS2 as a 'mortals messing with powers beyond their understanding' thing, where 'real' magic is a rare thing, and usually performed/taught by people who have little idea of how it is supposed to work. sorta like how lots of people use computers but have no idea about programming, the mechanics of a hard drive, ect.

on the gripping hand, player's that use magic should be of the "ancient knowledge preserved to modern time' paradigm, which know enough about the workings of magic to be able to do much more impressive things, but will have large gaps in their knowledge as a result of the less than perfect passage of information from one generation to the next.

6.) magic would be effected like psionics when around people who doubt, or are actively testing it. so a negapsychic would be next t immune to magic, much like he is to psi.

I did not have magic work in that manner. A negapsychiis was jus as vulnerable to magic as anyone else. I even warned my PC that was playing one... His next character was a firewalker. As far as normal unaware folk where concerned I had some rules based on disbelief but I can not remember what they where.

in RIFTS and BTS1, nega-psychics are not vulnerable to magic. (they effect it the same as PSI)
in BTS2, it is implied that belief is as vital a part of magic as it is to psychic ability.

plus if psychics fail around those who don't believe, but magic doesn't, why hasn't magic been confirmed to exist in the setting? to test magic you do the same thing as with psychics. you put them through tests by neutral observers to see if they can achieve the things they claim. every time this has been done, no result has been found.

so magic has to fail when in a testing environment or around those who ardently disbelieve, to keep the game accurate to the setting.

Well you think to think what is the level of Magic in the BtS,s world.

The number of Magic O.C.C will be low.

I think ther will be the Archanist,who is a master of Invocation spells and must common,a person can learn it by them self and it will take some time.

Thers the Pact witch,who makes a deal for power with Demon lords or Alien Intelligences.

Specific schools of Magic like Necromancy will only be pass on within a Cult and a Necromancer in BtS will not have access to all the special abilities a necromancer in Rifts will have,Go with the Death Mage from Chaos Earth:Rise of Magic.

I also think the Mirrormage from Nightbane:TTGD can wokr.

I use the Shifter O.C.C. with one third the P.P.E. and have three level of threats increase the P.P.E. by a third. The mage has some similarities to sorcerers from the Gate 2 and Lords of Illusion.

I beleive (and this is why Hannah is made the way she is) that in BTS-2, the only way to step away from a formulistic, ritualized form of magic and spontaniously cast spells of any power is through connection to greater powers. In Hannah's case she uses the Channeller OCC from Through the Glass Darkly.

I think that those mages who rely on their own capabilities will probably come accross more liek the Acolyte (not a real spell chucker, but if he gets enough people with the right mindset together he could concievibly make something happen) than the Sorceror or Mystic.

I can see Cybermagic appearing in a BTS-2 setting, tough we need an exlanation for what happens to the physical remains.

MGilliam wrote:I think that magic in BtS-2 would be handled sort of like magic is (or was) handled in Raymond E. Feist's Magician series. In that world magic is divided between two paths, the greater and lesser paths. The greater path magic seems more related to pure power, calling forth the energy by sheer force of will and using it to your advantage. Lesser path magicians use a lot more ritualistic spells, incantations, objects etc. They may not fully understand what they are doing, or may be doing it through prayer rituals - priests etc. Both have the potential to do great things, it is just the methodology used to do it (instantaneous by shear force of will vs. time consuming incantations/rituals/focal points).

Likewise, If that thought process is applied to BtS-2 the greater path type magic will be almost non-existent in BtS-2 since those that were found over the years were killed off or the knowledge was just lost. What would be left (for the most part) is the lesser path magic, rituals, incantations, object focus use, etc. Even these would be limited by the power level factors that affect P.P.E. along with location (ley lines/nexus points).

Just to throw out some mechanics on how incantations would work. The time behind a incantation spell/ritual would use the P.P.E. required as the number of seconds required to cast. That is how long it takes to incant and focus your mind to cast it (or just plain go through the motions required). 20 P.P.E. means one melee round and 1/3 of another, so you better have someone watching your back while you work. That high level 500 P.P.E ritual is going to require 8 and half minutes to cast (better make sure the area is safe or their are guards before you start). Meanwhile, a sheer force of will type would just instantly throw it out if the power was available.

That's a lot like how I run BtS-1. The ritual's had minimum time requirements so even if you have 1000 P.P.E. for a 500 P.P.E. ritual it's not instant. This was based on the rituals' level; basing off P.P.E. was considered but using level cut down on the math.

But basing time on P.P.E. does really sweeten up group efforts (cults), finding ley lines, or doing rituals only at key celestial times. Drawing P.P.E. from cultists or ley lines and blood sacrifice could cut the P.P.E. the arcanist has to provide himself to cast the ritual down. Let's say he gets 300 P.P.E. from cultists and sacrifice; that 500 P.P.E. ritual is now 200 P.P.E. and can be cast a lot faster. Would still need some minimums.

I've started digging into "Necromancy" in my game and its starting to provide interesting results

I havent worked out a specific formula, but when I do I'll post some notes.

I have to throw in my 2 cents...
ok magic is rare I agree... but simply reading a spell and waveing your hands in the air is not enofe to make it work. For one thing you need to be compleatly aware, but focised at the same time, you have to feel the power in you and around you and then you have to channel it, with well staying compleatly relaxed, and with out loseing focis on your goal, or aware ness of what is around you, and not feeling the engergy....

on that note, magic the at its most powerful should be subtel, bending and not realy breaking the laws of natcher, for one thing a mage does not want to call attion to hem self.... for one thing the more you bend the laws of the unavers, the more attion to draws to any one sincative to it. and some of the things that go bump in the night, may come looking to see what smells so good. many of the old schools of magic still exist in the form of the world religions. granted many of your shamens and a hand full of your new agers will eather fall into the relm of the mystic classes, or one of the psi classes, but some will fall under the wizerd/arcanest. this will the the thang that is passed with in famlys, or in religis orders but will
still tend to be passed with in the famlys of the order where in theory it is vary hard to get some one ecepted into the order that is not form one of the famly lines with in the order.... and besides, what would a mage gain but haveing what he is and can do known?

nothing! only scorn, redacuel, and hatered,,,,

the power that the mage drows both keeps hem alive, and alos flows form the unavers, the gods, are mearly manefstations of that power....

also these orders will be restrive of who the teach , treaining with start between 6 and 12 with the first 6-8 years consestiong of religion(of the order) myths and lore pholsaphy, and a heavy does of eathics, and basic medataion
after about 4 -6 years more advatsed medation, getting close to zen like after the pupile has mastered this he will being learning the feel the power and channel it. focise hes will, with out lessing every thing else, this will take anther 4-8 years and will end with the forst casting
this can be leared on ones own thow the chance of being croped by the power is higher as well it would take much more time learing the medation and relaxation, many who try will beocme dissencated or lose convection and give up

the only exeption will be the like the chaos mage form chaos earth, where storng emoetions take the place of disaplend foces, most of this will be one shot flulks but if it hapens more than once most resposable orders of magic will take in the "wild tallent" for the greater good. to teach them to call on there power as an act of wisdom and will, not and emotanel out burst or give them just enofe treaing so that thay can chouse not to use there power, that would be the common path for many not born of the old magic famlys, the wish to be normel.....

and that ignores that fact that most mages will want to portect the secrets of magic, not becouse of it makeing them less power full but do you realy want just any one to know how to make a nuke? or chimecal weapoins?, and keep in mind in any world where magic is posable it can do every thing that technolagy can..... summan storm, or call lighting can destory a city just as easyly as a nuke, and not to matching magicly couseing an earth quack. and the conjuring of demons that the mage may or may not be able to control... no mages will be most careful about how that use there power, and who thay teach it to