The Old Ones and other Worlds.

[JTwig]

The Old Ones were said to rule a large portion of the Mega-Verse, if not the entire thing, before they were overthrown. Now the people of Palladium believe that the Chaos War took place completely in their dimension, which isn't surprising since they have lost much of the own history (especially as it relates to the time of Chaos). But as players and GMs we have a broader view of the Mega-Verse. I personally think that the war took place across several dimensions, and Palladium was were the Old Ones made their last stand, Alamo style, and was their final fall back location. I'd be interested to hear what other people's take on the Old One's ancient empire was like, and what the Chaos War was really like.

Also...

What do you think happened to some of the other worlds/dimension that they ruled?

Do you think that there is some planet somewhere in the Mega-Verse that is still dominated by servants of the Old One who tirelessly work to free their master?

[verdilak]

1 word, Splugorth. Personally, I have always seen the Splugorth as the modern day Old Ones.

[Lukterran]

As powerful as a Dragon is compared to that of a human child. A Old One is compared to a Splugorth.

Yes. Splugorths are powerful alien intelligences, but not even close to on par with Old Ones, whose very names are the conduits of which all magic flows.

[verdilak]

As powerful as a Dragon is compared to that of a human child. A Old One is compared to a Splugorth.

Yes. Splugorths are powerful alien intelligences, but not even close to on par with Old Ones, whose very names are the conduits of which all magic flows.

I forget which of the books reference it, but I do beleive some of them say something to effect that splugorth MAY be related to the Old Ones.

[JTwig]

1 word, Splugorth. Personally, I have always seen the Splugorth as the modern day Old Ones.

Splugorth x100, maybe x1000. Not just in terms of personal power, but in recourses and minions.

I believe that according to PFRPG aren't all Alien Intelligences considered to be lesser Old Ones. I know that most of them were seserviant to them, and a few even had a hand in their down fall (or at least did nothing to help them at the end).

The why the Old Ones are described I've always had a hard time imagining that the people of Palladium, even with the help of gods and dragons, were able to over throw them by themselves. Look at Atlantis on Rifts Earth. Even if every other power on the planet, including gods and dragons, teamed up they would still be hard press to drive the Splugorth from the island due to the huge amount of resources at its disposal. Imagine that a thousand-fold, if not more, for each of the Old Ones. There had to be other battles taking place in other dimensions. Acutally I picture the battle against the Old Ones taking 1000s of years, spanning hundreds of dimensions, and the portion taking place on Palladium only being a small (compared to the rest of the war that is, considering it seems to have taken decades) final campaing in a huge costly war.

[JTwig]

I consider Palladium World the Place where the old ones had their center, their main base, nexus point,
as they lost at this place, the other places were cut off from them.

The idea to´ve other Worlds, Dimensions full of their servants and slaves, hm okay we must got to the demon and deevils etc to forge an alliance against this menace...

IMPOV the Alliance of light had many dark members, darak as in dark gods, demons etc

I've also always thought of Palladium as their home, either adopted or place of origin I don't know. Its were they ruled the intra-dimensional empire, and also why it would be the last place to fall.

[Nekira Sudacne]

1 word, Splugorth. Personally, I have always seen the Splugorth as the modern day Old Ones.

Splugorth x100, maybe x1000. Not just in terms of personal power, but in recourses and minions.

I believe that according to PFRPG aren't all Alien Intelligences considered to be lesser Old Ones.

Nope. THe Old Ones sourcebook discribes a "lesser" old one and it was about a thousand times more powerful than a splurgorth.

Yes, the Old ones are a type of supernatural intelligence, but in a leauge of their own.

[JTwig]

I've also always thought of Palladium as their home, either adopted or place of origin I don't know. Its were they ruled the intra-dimensional empire, and also why it would be the last place to fall.

or the first place

If it was the first place, then they would have just done what the Splugorth are famous for and kept bringing in reinforcements from millions of other world, overwhelming the race of Palladium.

No, to beat them you would have to cut off, or greatly reduce their supply lines without doing the some to your own. So that would mean actually destroying or taking away some of the other dimensional resources, and not just stopping people rifting on to Palladium and cutting off the dimension.

Plus even though they were evil incarnate they still had a lot of race that were incredibly loyal, which means you would have millions if not billions of their followers that were not involved with the fighting, thus still possessing a lot of their strength, that would immediately attempt to free their masters. Many of them operating from power bases that would be almost impossible to destroy in a short period of time.

[acreRake]

Seems to me, the Old Ones never really took the war against them seriously. I mean, no matter how many millions of angels dashed themselves against their defenses, they were still screwing around (frightening people in their homes, and turning each other into ibises for example...) and were caught by surprise when the forces of light put them all to sleep.

/2bits=25cents

So i guess i'm on the side of "Palladium was first to fall". Once the Old Ones were down, then the forces of light could do something about the rest of the Megaverse (like destroying 1/3 of the Astral Plane. See NB:BtS p68 and more especially 75).

[AzathothXy]

When I think of the power of the Old Ones, I don't think of Splugorths. A single Splugorth doesnt have that kind of power.

You want something close to on par? Look at the stats for the Lord of the Deep himself. Virtually unkillable but mortal methods. This is what I think of when I think of the Old Ones.

Either you kill it in one blow, or it laughs at you... then eats you...

Or Nxla's stats(Psyscape).

[Northern Ranger]

I do believe that Palladium would have been the last to fall, but mostly that's due to the fact that Lictalon, who was largely responsible for the magic that put them to sleep, didn't work alone. I believe that the knowledge for this magic probably came from another dimension (like Rifts, perhaps?) as did some of the people who fought for the forces of light. This leads me to the conclusion that a great many battles were fought before the heroes came to the Palladium World to finish it. Heroes from those other dimensions would have joined Lictalon to ensure that this evil would not return to their world again.

Just my two cents worth!

[acreRake]

I believe that the knowledge for this magic probably came from another dimension (like Rifts, perhaps?)

I believe it came from Thoth.

I also believe they sacrificed Kym-Nark-Mar for enough PPE to cast it.

I believe a lot of odd things...

[Northern Ranger]

I believe a lot of odd things...

Same Here

Od is good! Wait... you weren't talking about the God were, you?

[JTwig]

I do believe that Palladium would have been the last to fall, but mostly that's due to the fact that Lictalon, who was largely responsible for the magic that put them to sleep, didn't work alone. I believe that the knowledge for this magic probably came from another dimension (like Rifts, perhaps?) as did some of the people who fought for the forces of light. This leads me to the conclusion that a great many battles were fought before the heroes came to the Palladium World to finish it. Heroes from those other dimensions would have joined Lictalon to ensure that this evil would not return to their world again.

Just my two cents worth!

Finally someone who thinks the way I do! You should have seen the looks on some of the people around my area that I've talked to about this. A lot of them thought it was impossible since the books never mention anyone form another dimension fighting in the Chaos War, or any battles being fought in other dimensions. Completely ignoring the fact that one of the main story ideas for PFRPG is a world with civilizations that are a pale reflections of what once existed, and that most of its ancient history has been lost for all time.

[Borast]

Don't forget, there are also at a minimum of two cannonical references to the burial locations for Old Ones. One around Timro and the other in the wilds of the Eastern Territories...in fact, the Millenium Tree in the Eastern Territories is tapping into it, and being...mutated. Add in Thoth, and we have confirmed cannonical refereneces for the "locations" of three Old Ones...where are the other (9?).

One note to remember folks...in case this point was never raised in this thread. The very gods themselves were slaves of the Old Ones - and we're talking some gods that scare other gods here...

On a scale for comparison...
Human = 1
Dragon = 100
Minor God = 10,000
Major God = 100,000
Minor Old One = 1,000,000
Greatest Old One = 1,000,000,000

I can remember seeing some of the stats for some of the Old Ones in PF 1st ed...it was almost enough to cause nightmares!

[dragon_blaze_99]

I made the Old ones the reason behind Superpowers in HU but only for one shot term games but it was kinda fun

[bradshaw]

would anyone ever want to see an Old Ones Chaos Wars book(s) a prequel that goes all the way back to the beginning?

[Goliath Strongarm]

would anyone ever want to see an Old Ones Chaos Wars book(s) a prequel that goes all the way back to the beginning?

Sure. AFTER they finish LoD, they put out the Mysteries of Magic book, the OK books, the Land of the South Winds, updated yinsloth, updates Island teh Edge of the World (even though it doesnt take much for it to be updated... barely anything at all, really, but they could always add more crystal items). And I'm sure Im missing another book or three that needs to come out before they do something like the Chaos Wars. Or heck, even before they try advancing the Wolfen Wars Metaplot from Heck.

[JTwig]

would anyone ever want to see an Old Ones Chaos Wars book(s) a prequel that goes all the way back to the beginning?

Sure. AFTER they finish LoD, they put out the Mysteries of Magic book, the OK books, the Land of the South Winds, updated yinsloth, updates Island teh Edge of the World (even though it doesn't take much for it to be updated... barely anything at all, really, but they could always add more crystal items). And I'm sure I'm missing another book or three that needs to come out before they do something like the Chaos Wars. Or heck, even before they try advancing the Wolfen Wars Metaplot from Heck.

The day they start to advance the Wolfen Wars Metaplot is the day I stop buying PFRPG. Metaplot has always been one of Palladium's biggest weakness (of course with a lot of things like Robotech it was out of their hands). They should leave it were its at, with both sides having built-up for war (which is were they should have left SoT for Rifts), and allow me as GM and my Player's action dictate were things go. They should also pick a date and have all of their source books reflect how that portion of Palladium stands at that time, with maybe some suggestions on what may happen (this doesn't seem to be as much as a problem for PFRPG as it is for Rifts, in fact I like how they set-up the Shadow Colonies in the Northern Hinterlands books. They left a lot of room for the GM to decide what happens if anything).

[Fyrpower]

Seems to me, the Old Ones never really took the war against them seriously. I mean, no matter how many millions of angels dashed themselves against their defenses, they were still screwing around (frightening people in their homes, and turning each other into ibises for example...)

You got me imagining them in like a cartooney comic strip, stood next to each with bored faces (except for one sniggering while one of the other tells him to shut up), when suddenly Xy slithers up and says to the rest of them 'Hey, gang, the wars getting a bit boring, wanna go scare some people instead', 2 secs later he gets zapped by one of them and turned into Thoth and they all start laughing.

[Amberjack]

THat is just not right

[Goliath Strongarm]

:lol: THat is just not right

And as Thoth, he shows back up as a member of the Church of Light, STILL magically more powerful than the rest of the old ones, and comes up with (along with Lictalon and a few others) how to put the rest of the OO to sleep... but escaping that fate himself... hmmm..

Who's laughing NOW?

--
GS
Priest of Thoth: Thoth rocks
Priest of Set: Thoth's more useless than Osiris..
Priest of Thoth: Umm.. you know that spell you used earlier? He invented it...
Priest of Set: Ohh.. umm... uhh.... Thoth sucks!
Priest of Thoth: You do realize you're standing inside a library DEDICATED to him, and is also a temple, right?
Priest of Set: oh *bleeeeeeeeeep*

[GA]

The Old Ones is a part of the Cthulu Mythos. Use stuff from Call of Cthulu or Lovecraft Howard and those guys for origin material.

[Cinos]

In terms of Palladium, I prefer to take a narrower view of things (because I feel it creates a stronger Mythos for the game as a whole), and so in my games, I only accept the existence of a few dimensions (Elemental Planes, Astral Plane, Hades, Dyval and a hand full of others), rather then the mydrid of realms there. To this end, the Old Ones ruled from Palladium directly (before the Black Wall of course was there, making it a much larger planet). Thus I think the other dimensions largely where not there in the first place or simply continued on with life as normal.

Rifts (or any other game I choose to pull the Old Ones into), is of course a different story, as the part of the Mythos is that there's billions of worlds. And posed the same question; Some where probably destroyed during the war itself, or rendered otherwise non-livable by most organic life, or continued on such as earth, Palladium, Dyval or Hades has. I don't think the Army of Light would be foolish enough to leave any strongholds of the Old Ones remaining (and Dragons and Gods has a part speaking of how the Army of Light did spend time purging away minions after the war, killing many en-mass, before locking a bulk into the Land of the Damned). It's also possible that other worlds have things similar to Palladiums Land of the Damned, where the Army couldn't muster a true enough force to kill all of them, or lost heart for the bloodshed, and imprisoned the remaining forces.

[bradshaw]

[/quote]What do you think happened to some of the other worlds/dimension that they ruled?

Do you think that there is some planet somewhere in the Mega-Verse that is still dominated by servants of the Old One who tirelessly work to free their master?[/quote]

I would think that if one were to start investigating around the lesser treaded routes of the megaverse a lot of worlds would contain dead planets left from the chaos wars, lesser old ones and worlds full of beings not only plotting to awaken the Old Ones, but maybe even worlds that don't know the Chaos War is over.

[csbioborg]

a SDF-1 is roughly is only slightly more powerful than a Old One and it would destroy a splugorth easily in one shot.

[bradshaw]

The one time I considered any of thing for a campaign I was running, I decided that the Palladium world never existed before the spell that trapped the Old Ones. All of their stories from before that took place upon other worlds. The Palladium World itself was created as a prison of sort for the Old Ones. The armies of Light didn't want to risk having the Old Ones awake so they created an entire world to help trap them, a world where they are massively weaker and would have no knowledge of how to get out of.

This explains the wall around the Palladium World as that is part of the barrier entrapping the Old Ones. I that Pantheons Rifts source book, it talks about one of the more powerful gods spending much of his time ensuring that the barriers trapping the Old Ones and other dangerous beings trapped where they are.

Thats kind of a cool idea man

[Northern Ranger]

The forces of light that battled the Old Ones were members of different races and occupations from all across the Megaverse. I think, if enough research was done, we might find that they were known as the Defilers! But perhaps not. (I do believe the Defilers had a part in the Chaos War, though. I think it was the first campaign that Kevin ran when play testing his idea.)
Of course, we'll likely never get him to verify or deny this, so it's a moot point. But there is a picture of the defilers floating around (I think it's in 1st Edition PFRPG) and it's obviously a bunch of heroic types from various worlds. Anyways, like I said before, I think the PF world was the final war zone of the Chaos War. But I do think that there were a great many other worlds involved in it. That's why those heroes all banded together, in order to make sure that other worlds didn't turn out like theirs. This was my opinion, of course, but it seems logical to me. (A lot of strange things seem logical to me, though.)