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Chronos wrote:in RUE it seems that the ley line walker can't take literacy as a skill
due to it being "communications" skill however in the original rifts
literacy was a "technical" skill and thus you could take the skill...
oversight or on purpose ?

They can take it as a Secondary Skill, since Secondary Skills no longer match the OCC skills.

KC is right.

Now, look at Vagabonds.. they are the only characters in the game that get soap and candy. WooHoo! lol

Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Vrykolas2k wrote:Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Depends on what you study. You don't always have to study books, you know... and books don't have to be filled with words.

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Depends on what you study. You don't always have to study books, you know... and books don't have to be filled with words.

Then it would be easy to learn to be a LLW, just look at the pretty pictures.

I suppose it would be possible to be an illiterate mage, but that can't make you a very effective one. I'm going to assume that the majority of Mages are literate and transcribe their spells and teach them in a written fashion.

Proseksword wrote:I suppose it would be possible to be an illiterate mage, but that can't make you a very effective one. I'm going to assume that the majority of Mages are literate and transcribe their spells and teach them in a written fashion.

Assume all you like, but you're wrong.

Rifts, p. 165
70% of mages are illiterate.

You don't need to read to learn magic.

Huh. Right you are, then. Didn't remember that, it's been a while since I've read the basic LLW description. I still stand by my statement, if you want to be good at anything intellectual, literacy is definitely essential.

Lord_Coake wrote:That makes no sense at all what so freaking ever. AKA: Standard PB way of doing things.

Houserule: LLW's and other magic users that garner their magic through STUDY get Literacy: Native: %98 for free.

Agreed and seconded.

verdilak wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Depends on what you study. You don't always have to study books, you know... and books don't have to be filled with words.

Then it would be easy to learn to be a LLW

No, it would require conviction and belief as well.

verdilak wrote:..just look at the pretty pictures.

I don't think just reading the fancy words would make you a LLW'er either.

Lord_Coake wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:I suppose it would be possible to be an illiterate mage, but that can't make you a very effective one. I'm going to assume that the majority of Mages are literate and transcribe their spells and teach them in a written fashion.

Assume all you like, but you're wrong.

Rifts, p. 165
70% of mages are illiterate.

You don't need to read to learn magic.

That makes no sense at all what so freaking ever.

If it makes you feel better, Line Walkers are "often literate"; it says so in their description.
It's 70% of mages overall that are illiterate, so likely a good chunk of those illiterates are Mystics (who feel that too much education gets in the way of magic) or Shifters (who are very often likely to be taught their spells through demons they've contacted).

Still, where are you guys coming up with the idea that mages living in a post-apocalyptic world would learn magic through books?
Never heard of apprenticeships?

It's not all Gandalf you know; lots of mages aren't going to be high-magic practicing wise men.

Proseksword wrote:Huh. Right you are, then. Didn't remember that, it's been a while since I've read the basic LLW description. I still stand by my statement, if you want to be good at anything intellectual, literacy is definitely essential.

Magic isn't intellectual.

If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

KC in for the slam dunk.

People have got to get over the whole D&D notion of spellbooks & the studious mages. Mystics certainly don't need to read; neither do warlocks. In Rifts I think Ley line walkers & shifters, and others who can learn magic whenever, are far more likely to be taught spells directly, rather than learn them out of books, regardless of the prevalence of the literacy skill. Where would these books of magic come from, on Rifts Earth that has a modern history of magic use only going back a couple of hundred years? The vast majority of the spell-casting classes in Rifts, regardless of whether they can read or not, are very unlikely to have seen an actual book of magic.

I can see where most would think that literacy would be important to a magic user. If you look at it, the general perception of "mages" is some old man in a dusty ol' tower sifting through moldy tomes studying the arcane. The idea of "spellbooks" would also lean towards the need for literacy. Of course, there are setting where magic isn't so much learned as it is an innate ability that one posses, and the spells are more "seen from within" than learned out of a book. In that instance, the ability to internally visualize the spell and convert it into something external would be far more useful than literacy (having a teacher that can help one to learn these tecniques could be invaluable). It may be that this is the angle that Rifts is taking, and the passing down of magical knowledge is more from master teaching an apprentice than writing down that knowledge.

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

So memorizing the words to a folk song is intellectual?

I see no reason whatsoever why mages need be literate. Like others have pointed out: spell books would be/are rare on Rifts Earth. Furthermore, mages learning mainly through apprenticeship and oral study fits the setting much, much better as far as I am concerned.

~Josh

EDIT: Also, as an aside: intellectuals need not be literate. The Greek Philosophers and storytellers, for instance, relied heavily on memorization via an oral tradition.

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

So memorizing the words to a folk song is intellectual?

Yes, yes it is. You are using your mind, so it's intellectual. To what level I won't quibble about, but it's still an intellectual pursuit. I'm not disagreeing that it isn't necessary. What I am saying is that I think it would be highly advantageous for a Ley Line Walker to be literate and I think most would go the extra mile to be so. If you are the type to want to study the secrets of the arcane and mystical and research the inner workings of the universe then you're the type to want to learn the 26 letters of the Alphabet.

EDIT: Also, as an aside: intellectuals need not be literate. The Greek Philosophers and storytellers, for instance, relied heavily on memorization via an oral tradition.

Once again, agreed, but at the same time how long was it before somebody started writing this stuff down for posterity and ease of preservation?

Proseksword wrote:Once again, agreed, but at the same time how long was it before somebody started writing this stuff down for posterity and ease of preservation?

Give or take.. the first alphabet came out about 2000 BC with some sort of writing or hieroglyphics/pictographs going back maybe 2700 - 3000 BC.


Daniel Stoker

Some things to consider: These are inferences that I get from what is written in canon about LLW's and wizards in Palladium Fantasy.

1) For a mage, knowledge & secrecy is power. As a mage, knowing a spell that other mages generally don't know adds to your prestige and social standing.

2) A spell can be passed on to a fellow mage verbally through vocalizing the spell, and memorization. This allows the original mage to directly control the spread of this highly specialized knowledge, to trusted apprentices, friends & allies.

3) Writing down information, then mass producing printed material is fine if you want to disseminate information to a wide audience, or disseminate information knowledge quickly. Which is the last thing that most mages want to do.

4) Making sure that your apprentices ARE illiterate, gives you a certain amount of control over your apprentices, and also makes your apprentices somewhat dependent on you for new spell knowledge.

Now, I'm sure there are times when being able to teach large numbers of mages standardized spells is a good idea, like in a magic defense force, the war in Tolkeen, Lazlo defenders etc. The standard common knowledge spells are probably written down. But the really good stuff, exclusive, high level or rare spells won't be found in a book. You have to find someone that knows the spell, and would be willing to teach it to you, either as a boon or favor, or for some other reason.

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Proseksword wrote:Once again, agreed, but at the same time how long was it before somebody started writing this stuff down for posterity and ease of preservation?

Give or take.. the first alphabet came out about 2000 BC with some sort of writing or hieroglyphics/pictographs going back maybe 2700 - 3000 BC.


Daniel Stoker

Greek Philosophers aren't 5000 years old.

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

How so?

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

Right.
They don't do that.

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

So memorizing the words to a folk song is intellectual?

I'm working on my PhD in "The Hokey-Pokey".

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

How so?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=Intellectual

If you're engaging your brain to do anything, it's intellectual. While I'm not saying you have to be a rocket scientist to be a mage, an I.Q. Attribute of 10 is required, that in and of itself tells me it's intellectual.

Right.
They don't do that.

I'm sure somebody does, and the nations that do prosper, because they can accelerate the education of their mages. I'll agree with Coalition Soldier, if they're off in the boonies, I can totally see it be oral tradition handed down, etc, but the guys in Lazlo, Dweomer and the former Tolkeen were probably reading and writing about the magic they were using.

Isn't the Literacy level for those cities given in one of the books as well? I'm pretty sure it's not low.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

How so?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=Intellectual

If you're engaging your brain to do anything, it's intellectual.

No, if you're engaging your intellect to do something, then it is intellectual.
You engage your brain just jogging in place, but I don't think that qualifies as an intellectual pursuit.


So what's "Intellect"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Intellect

the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.

Magic is about Will more than it's about knowing and/or understanding.

While I'm not saying you have to be a rocket scientist to be a mage, an I.Q. Attribute of 10 is required, that in and of itself tells me it's intellectual.

That's a real-world I.Q. of 100.
Which means you can be a professional mage without a lot of intellect.
For that matter, Mystics only need a 9, which is a real-world I.Q. of 90, which is pretty darn dull.
People in the I.Q. 90-100 range generally aren't big readers.

Right.
They don't do that.

I'm sure somebody does, and the nations that do prosper, because they can accelerate the education of their mages.

Hey, it's a great theory.
But it hasn't happened.
Mages are a lot like the Coalition that way; they want to hold onto their power, not share it.

I'll agree with Coalition Soldier, if they're off in the boonies, I can totally see it be oral tradition handed down, etc, but the guys in Lazlo, Dweomer and the former Tolkeen were probably reading and writing about the magic they were using.

Isn't the Literacy level for those cities given in one of the books as well? I'm pretty sure it's not low.

Let me know if you find it.

Leyline walkers can take Literacy as an O.C.C. skill. Why? Because they were originally intended to have the ability to learn to read and write in the original core rule book. Does this mean they all know how to read and write automatically? No. Does it mean that some Leyline walkers might actually be literate without having to do self studies? Yes, and that is how it is and should be intended.

Nobody is assuming that the Leyline walker is a D&D Wizard with a spell book, but it should be possible for a player character to carry a spell book and use it.

Colt47 wrote:Leyline walkers can take Literacy as an O.C.C. skill. Why? Because they were originally intended to have the ability to learn to read and write in the original core rule book. Does this mean they all know how to read and write automatically? No. Does it mean that some Leyline walkers might actually be literate without having to do self studies? Yes, and that is how it is and should be intended.

Agreed.

Nobody is assuming that the Leyline walker is a D&D Wizard with a spell book,

Ahem.

Proseksword wrote:I suppose it would be possible to be an illiterate mage, but that can't make you a very effective one. I'm going to assume that the majority of Mages are literate and transcribe their spells and teach them in a written fashion.

but it should be possible for a player character to carry a spell book and use it.

And it is.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

How so?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=Intellectual

If you're engaging your brain to do anything, it's intellectual.

No, if you're engaging your intellect to do something, then it is intellectual.
You engage your brain just jogging in place, but I don't think that qualifies as an intellectual pursuit.


So what's "Intellect"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Intellect

the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.

Read the passage you quote yourself. The power or faculty of the mind. The mind is the brain, there, boy-o. ".....one knows or understands..." hmm, sounds a lot like memorizing & learning, doesn't it?

Magic is about Will more than it's about knowing and/or understanding.

May well be, but you obviously have to learn the spell if you are a Ley Line Walker. Whilst the first two steps to learning magic given in RUE are Belief and Conviction, the fifth is understanding, which means to know and comprehend, both intellectual activities.

I see you quoted the part about 70% of spellcasters being illiterate from RUE, but is that really what the section says?

[quote RIFTs Ultimate Edition, pg.191]
One reason is that most people, including many practitioners of magic, are illiterate (about 70%). [/quote]

That statement is inclusory, which is to say it is referring to all people, including practitioners of magic, so 70% of all people are illiterate, not mages. In fact, the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. describes many LLWs as Literate and students of the sciences, hardly the description of someone getting by on force of will alone.

It also references mages being less than willing to write down Spell Scrolls because they are afraid of other magic users learning the spell from it, but since the purpose of a Spell Scroll is to allow a non-magic user the ability to cast a spell, it's easy to see why they wouldn't be all that common in the first place, and with the added danger of leaking information, you'd refuse to produce them.

On the other hand, it talks about how one of the main selling points of Magic Guilds is Mystic Books one can have access to if one joins up.

While I'm not saying you have to be a rocket scientist to be a mage, an I.Q. Attribute of 10 is required, that in and of itself tells me it's intellectual.

That's a real-world I.Q. of 100.
Which means you can be a professional mage without a lot of intellect.
For that matter, Mystics only need a 9, which is a real-world I.Q. of 90, which is pretty darn dull.
People in the I.Q. 90-100 range generally aren't big readers.

On the other hand, I would say that the majority of the worlds people with a 100+ I.Q. are literate, also, this is a minimun requirement, not an average by any means. All it is saying is that Ley Line Walkers can't be stupid. Why? Because it's an intellectual pursuit.

I'm sure somebody does, and the nations that do prosper, because they can accelerate the education of their mages.

Hey, it's a great theory.
But it hasn't happened.
Mages are a lot like the Coalition that way; they want to hold onto their power, not share it.

Actually, the description of Tolkeen in Coalition War Campaign 6 lists no less than ten Magic Universities, the largest structure in the City of Lazlo is a Magic University, and Dweomer likewise has it's magic academies. I'd say that it's pretty obvious that the most prosperous magic Kingdoms are those who share their knowledge.

Let me know if you find it.

Couldn't find it, but looked only briefly, I'd think it would have to be higher than Manistique, which has a literacy rating of 74% (if I remember correctly). If 34% of Tolkeen's populace is listed as "Scholars, Scientists & Educators", then that's 34% of the population right there, and if you have educators, then you have education, and generally speaking, that means literacy.

It doesn't matter whether spell-casting for ley line walkers is intellectual or not; as the person who claimed learning folk songs is intellectual proves, it's irrelevant, and you don't need to be able to read to be smart. In our modern culture, the two generally go together, but they don't have to, and most societies traditionally have had rather low literacy rates.

You have to learn & understand spells as a ley line walker, but you don't need to read them; it's far more likely you'd learn them directly from another person. In Rifts earth, as has been repeatedly mentioned, it's pretty unlikely you would have anything to read spells from, as there are almost no spell books, spell training schools exist in only a handful of places in North America, and spell-casters are jealous & protective with high level magic. Sure, if you're a ley line walker coming from Lazlo, you could probably read, so you take literacy as a secondary skill. In fact, your character probably learned to read as a kid, but it's not inherent to the training of a ley line walker. So if you're a ley line walker coming from the middle of otherwise wilderness, or maybe a little village, you being able to read is much less likely.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So what's "Intellect"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Intellect

the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.

Read the passage you quote yourself. The power or faculty of the mind. The mind is the brain, there, boy-o. ".....one knows or understands..." hmm, sounds a lot like memorizing & learning, doesn't it?

Sure.
Now read the other part:
" as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills"

Magic is more of an art than a science
Sure, you can learn and memorize stuff, but the magic itself is primarily a manifestation of the mage's will.
Which is why some people take to it naturally, and others never will no matter how much they study.

That's also why the most important aspects of magic are Belief and Conviction, not Reading and Writing.

Yes, you have to train yourself to use magic (usually).
But you also have to train yourself to ride a bicycle.
That may or may not make it an intellectual act, but even if it is, reading is in no way required, and isn't necessarily even helpful.

Magic is about Will more than it's about knowing and/or understanding.

May well be, but you obviously have to learn the spell if you are a Ley Line Walker. Whilst the first two steps to learning magic given in RUE are Belief and Conviction, the fifth is understanding, which means to know and comprehend, both intellectual activities.

The actual casting of the spell is purely an act of the mind.
The hand gestures and speech components of the spells are only there to help the mage with his own belief and focus.
You don't have to learn them correctly, you just have to believe that you have learned them correctly.

I see you quoted the part about 70% of spellcasters being illiterate from RUE, but is that really what the section says?

Actually, I was quoting the original Rifts book, and yes that's what it says.
I'll quote it exactly for you:
Rifts, p. 165
"Magic scrolls are extremely uncommon for two reasons. 1) A good many practitioners of magic are illiterate (about 70%). 2) Few are willing to write a spell incantation down for fear the other mages will learn the spell from the scroll."

[quote RIFTs Ultimate Edition, pg.191]
One reason is that most people, including many practitioners of magic, are illiterate (about 70%).

That statement is inclusory, which is to say it is referring to all people, including practitioners of magic, so 70% of all people are illiterate, not mages.[/quote]


Yup, apparently they changed the wording in RUE.

In fact, the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. describes many LLWs as Literate and students of the sciences, hardly the description of someone getting by on force of will alone.

Already addressed.
I pointed out that while many LLWs are literate, many mages are not LLWs.
And I went on to point out that many Mystics believe that too much education blocks them from the world around them.

It also references mages being less than willing to write down Spell Scrolls because they are afraid of other magic users learning the spell from it,

Yes.
Which would also apply to spell books in general.

but since the purpose of a Spell Scroll is to allow a non-magic user the ability to cast a spell, it's easy to see why they wouldn't be all that common in the first place, and with the added danger of leaking information, you'd refuse to produce them.

Where does it say that?

On the other hand, it talks about how one of the main selling points of Magic Guilds is Mystic Books one can have access to if one joins up.

Yup.
Because they're rare.
It's a perk, but only for literate mages who are the guild-joining type.

That's a real-world I.Q. of 100.
Which means you can be a professional mage without a lot of intellect.
For that matter, Mystics only need a 9, which is a real-world I.Q. of 90, which is pretty darn dull.
People in the I.Q. 90-100 range generally aren't big readers.

On the other hand, I would say that the majority of the worlds people with a 100+ I.Q. are literate, also, this is a minimun requirement, not an average by any means. All it is saying is that Ley Line Walkers can't be stupid. Why? Because it's an intellectual pursuit.

Hey, as I've said, if you stretch the definition to "anything that involves learning", then there's precious little that' NOT "an intellectual pursuit".
So if you're going by that definition, then yeah, magic can be considered an intellectual pursuit, but that doesn't really mean much, certainly not that mages need to be literate.

Mages are a lot like the Coalition that way; they want to hold onto their power, not share it.

Actually, the description of Tolkeen in Coalition War Campaign 6 lists no less than ten Magic Universities, the largest structure in the City of Lazlo is a Magic University, and Dweomer likewise has it's magic academies. I'd say that it's pretty obvious that the most prosperous magic Kingdoms are those who share their knowledge.

The Tolkeen books are messed up ten ways to Tuesday, and unless the population of Tolkeen is freakin' HUGE, then having ten universities makes no kind of sense.
Or unless any group of mages who want to teach count as a "university", which would mean that they have 10 glorifited covens.

As for Lazlo.. meh.
Chi-Town has a university too.
Does that mean most of the population is likely to be literate?

Let me know if you find it.

Couldn't find it, but looked only briefly, I'd think it would have to be higher than Manistique, which has a literacy rating of 74% (if I remember correctly). If 34% of Tolkeen's populace is listed as "Scholars, Scientists & Educators", then that's 34% of the population right there, and if you have educators, then you have education, and generally speaking, that means literacy.

If 34% of the population are scholars, scientists, and educators, then yeah... you're likely to have abnormally high literacy rates among the mages in that area.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Magic is more of an art than a science
Sure, you can learn and memorize stuff, but the magic itself is primarily a manifestation of the mage's will.
Which is why some people take to it naturally, and others never will no matter how much they study.

That's also why the most important aspects of magic are Belief and Conviction, not Reading and Writing.

Not arguing against that. It's very obvious that there is much more to magic use then simply reading the spell incantation, but it is obviously a very important part. Also, I'm sure the written word could be of great help educating one in the proper way to attune oneself to the supernatural and channel it's energies.

The actual casting of the spell is purely an act of the mind.
The hand gestures and speech components of the spells are only there to help the mage with his own belief and focus.
You don't have to learn them correctly, you just have to believe that you have learned them correctly.

However, the actual incantation is obviously very important to spell casting, since gagging is listed in both Siege on Tolkeen and the RIFTs Book of Magic as one of the primary means of neutralizing a magic user.

but since the purpose of a Spell Scroll is to allow a non-magic user the ability to cast a spell, it's easy to see why they wouldn't be all that common in the first place, and with the added danger of leaking information, you'd refuse to produce them.

Where does it say that?

What else are you going to use a Spell Scroll for? It's not an effective teaching method, since a Mage only has a 10%+2% per level chance of learning a spell from a scroll. It's basically a one use spell item, mostly for those who cannot otherwise cast spells, otherwise you'd just teach the spell to the person...

The Tolkeen books are messed up ten ways to Tuesday, and unless the population of Tolkeen is freakin' HUGE, then having ten universities makes no kind of sense.
Or unless any group of mages who want to teach count as a "university", which would mean that they have 10 glorifited covens.

Hey, I'm not writing canon, I'm just quoting it. You don't like it, take it up with the big K.S.

Chi-Town has a university too.
Does that mean most of the population is likely to be literate?

Well, it probably would, if it didn't have a standing policy of leaving people ignorant.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Magic is more of an art than a science
Sure, you can learn and memorize stuff, but the magic itself is primarily a manifestation of the mage's will.
Which is why some people take to it naturally, and others never will no matter how much they study.

That's also why the most important aspects of magic are Belief and Conviction, not Reading and Writing.

Not arguing against that. It's very obvious that there is much more to magic use then simply reading the spell incantation, but it is obviously a very important part. Also, I'm sure the written word could be of great help educating one in the proper way to attune oneself to the supernatural and channel it's energies.

Uh, no.
If reading the spell incantation were an important part, then all mages would be literated.
They're not, ergo it's not.

And you don't really have to attune yourself to the energies; you just have to have the will to control them.
And reading doesn't help much with willpower, unless maybe you're into self-help books or something.

The actual casting of the spell is purely an act of the mind.
The hand gestures and speech components of the spells are only there to help the mage with his own belief and focus.
You don't have to learn them correctly, you just have to believe that you have learned them correctly.

However, the actual incantation is obviously very important to spell casting, since gagging is listed in both Siege on Tolkeen and the RIFTs Book of Magic as one of the primary means of neutralizing a magic user.

It's also mentioned that mages can learn to cast spells without verbal components, and that the hand gestures are only there to help the mage focus.
It's not that the gestures have to be done a specific way, only that the mage thinks that he's doing them right.

What else are you going to use a Spell Scroll for? It's not an effective teaching method, since a Mage only has a 10%+2% per level chance of learning a spell from a scroll. It's basically a one use spell item, mostly for those who cannot otherwise cast spells, otherwise you'd just teach the spell to the person...

Dude, you haven't been paying attention.
Mages don't just teach spells to any joe-schmoe who wants to learn.
They're secretive, even with other mages.

Scrolls are for those who cannot otherwise cast the spell on the scroll, not necessarily for people who can't cast spells at all.
For that matter, they're for convenience.
Which is easier, reading a scroll of Teleport Superior that you've prepared ahead of time, or trying to come up with that much PPE on the fly?

The Tolkeen books are messed up ten ways to Tuesday, and unless the population of Tolkeen is freakin' HUGE, then having ten universities makes no kind of sense.
Or unless any group of mages who want to teach count as a "university", which would mean that they have 10 glorifited covens.

Hey, I'm not writing canon, I'm just quoting it. You don't like it, take it up with the big K.S.

Doesn't change what I said, or the fact that it's likely to be true that these are not full universities.

Chi-Town has a university too.
Does that mean most of the population is likely to be literate?

Well, it probably would, if it didn't have a standing policy of leaving people ignorant.

Same with mages.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Uh, no.
If reading the spell incantation were an important part, then all mages would be literated.
They're not, ergo it's not.

Allow me to correct myself. Knowing the incantation is important.

It's also mentioned that mages can learn to cast spells without verbal components, and that the hand gestures are only there to help the mage focus.
It's not that the gestures have to be done a specific way, only that the mage thinks that he's doing them right.

I've definitely missed this part if it's there. Could you point me to it? It's my understanding that Magic requires a verbalization of some form.


Edit: In fact, I'll support my statement.

RIFTs Ultimate Edition, pg.189 Step 2 of Casting Spells:
"To cast a spell requires verbalization - the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the mystic energy."

Scrolls are for those who cannot otherwise cast the spell on the scroll, not necessarily for people who can't cast spells at all.
For that matter, they're for convenience.

Obviously they are not, because you'd be giving them a shot at learning it, something the mage under your description doesn't want to do, correct?

Doesn't change what I said, or the fact that it's likely to be true that these are not full universities.

That's not the descriptions given of these facilities in the book. terms like "huge, sprawling campus of massive domes and towers" are used to describe most of the schools, which are shown on the maps as among the largest buildings in the City. I really doubt there are only ten-to-twenty mages in each.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's also mentioned that mages can learn to cast spells without verbal components, and that the hand gestures are only there to help the mage focus.
It's not that the gestures have to be done a specific way, only that the mage thinks that he's doing them right.

I've definitely missed this part if it's there. Could you point me to it? It's my understanding that Magic requires a verbalization of some form.


Edit: In fact, I'll support my statement.

RIFTs Ultimate Edition, pg.189 Step 2 of Casting Spells:
"To cast a spell requires verbalization - the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the mystic energy."

I don't have the page handy, but Rifts Underseas mentions the part about being able to learn spells without the verbal component.
I forget what book elaborates on the purpose of the hand gestures.

Scrolls are for those who cannot otherwise cast the spell on the scroll, not necessarily for people who can't cast spells at all.
For that matter, they're for convenience.

Obviously they are not, because you'd be giving them a shot at learning it, something the mage under your description doesn't want to do, correct?

At this point your argument is that it makes more sense to teach another mage a spell that he needs to cast one time than it does to give/sell him a scroll that would give him a chance at learning the spell.
Does this really make sense to you?

And, of course, you failed to address the key use, which is the simple convenience of being able to store a high-cost spell for relatively instant use.

Doesn't change what I said, or the fact that it's likely to be true that these are not full universities.

That's not the descriptions given of these facilities in the book. terms like "huge, sprawling campus of massive domes and towers" are used to describe most of the schools, which are shown on the maps as among the largest buildings in the City. I really doubt there are only ten-to-twenty mages in each.

Okay, I guess it's official.
The Tolkeen descriptions don't make any sense.

(What's the population again?)

verdilak wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Depends on what you study. You don't always have to study books, you know... and books don't have to be filled with words.

Then it would be easy to learn to be a LLW, just look at the pretty pictures.

Can you recreate in your memory, perfectly, the entirety of a page of a "Where's Waldo" book? Can you do it while singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb?" Are you 100% sure that you can do this at any time, even if I'm shooting at you?

Oh, and your eyes have to be open and looking at me, so you can target your spell accurately... you can't close them to help you remember the picture.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't have the page handy, but Rifts Underseas mentions the part about being able to learn spells without the verbal component.
I forget what book elaborates on the purpose of the hand gestures.

Well, I'll consider this negated by the very specific passage in RIFTs Ultimate Edition. If it's in Underseas, is it possible it only applies specifically to underwater magic users?

At this point your argument is that it makes more sense to teach another mage a spell that he needs to cast one time than it does to give/sell him a scroll that would give him a chance at learning the spell.
Does this really make sense to you?

No, my point was that it is better not to ever give a mage a scroll because they might learn the spell anyway. Your point about casting w/o P.P.E. cost, however, is valid. It does, however, completely miss the point that in order to scribe or use a scroll, you have to be literate.

Okay, I guess it's official.
The Tolkeen descriptions don't make any sense.

(What's the population again?)

Let's see.....(Opens book)......Peacetime population of 890,000, Wartime population of 1.3 million, a number not including 90,000+ monsters and demons nor the 15-20,000 mercenaries and hangers on.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't have the page handy, but Rifts Underseas mentions the part about being able to learn spells without the verbal component.
I forget what book elaborates on the purpose of the hand gestures.

Well, I'll consider this negated by the very specific passage in RIFTs Ultimate Edition.

IIRC, that same passage is in the original Rifts book.
It's the general rule, Underseas lists the exceptions.

It's necessary for mages to make the gestures, but only for their own peace of mind. Essentially as a placebo.
It's not how you do it, but rather that you do it, and that you believe that you've done it.

If it's in Underseas, is it possible it only applies specifically to underwater magic users?

I'm certain that it was a rule for all mages, so that any mage who ended up traveling around underwater for a long time could learn to cast spells there as well.

At this point your argument is that it makes more sense to teach another mage a spell that he needs to cast one time than it does to give/sell him a scroll that would give him a chance at learning the spell.
Does this really make sense to you?

No, my point was that it is better not to ever give a mage a scroll because they might learn the spell anyway.

Right, but you also argued that it's better to just teach people spells instead of give them scrolls.
The two arguments don't make sense together.

Your point about casting w/o P.P.E. cost, however, is valid. It does, however, completely miss the point that in order to scribe or use a scroll, you have to be literate.

It doesn't miss that point; that point is irrelevent to the issue of how scrolls are supposed to be used.
The fact that scrolls are for use by mages as well as mundanes does not conflict with the fact that scrolls are rare because many mages are illiterate.
Most non-mages are illiterate too.
Which is why scrolls are rare.

Okay, I guess it's official.
The Tolkeen descriptions don't make any sense.

(What's the population again?)

Let's see.....(Opens book)......Peacetime population of 890,000, Wartime population of 1.3 million, a number not including 90,000+ monsters and demons nor the 15-20,000 mercenaries and hangers on.

Whew!
That's bigger than I thought, and maybe the numbers do make some sense.
We'll go with the peacetime population, since the wartime numbers weren't all there to attend school.
10 Universities at 20,000 students each would mean 200,000 people enrolled in the universities. That's about 22% of the population that would be going to school, and I think that 20,000 people is a kind of small number for enrollment, at least for major universities.

Mark Hall wrote:

verdilak wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Which makes little to no sense of course... they learned to study but nae to read?!

Depends on what you study. You don't always have to study books, you know... and books don't have to be filled with words.

Then it would be easy to learn to be a LLW, just look at the pretty pictures.

Can you recreate in your memory, perfectly, the entirety of a page of a "Where's Waldo" book? Can you do it while singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb?" Are you 100% sure that you can do this at any time, even if I'm shooting at you?

Oh, and your eyes have to be open and looking at me, so you can target your spell accurately... you can't close them to help you remember the picture.

I dont know what that has to do with anything, unless you are insinuating that mages cannot cast spells without looking at a book or page.

Learning is learning. Can you boil water without looking at a cookbook? By your little statement, I would have to assume that you cannot, nor believe that a cook cannot.

verdilak wrote:Learning is learning. Can you boil water without looking at a cookbook? By your little statement, I would have to assume that you cannot, nor believe that a cook cannot.

Until I read my first cookbook, my water just kept catching fire.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:At this point your argument is that it makes more sense to teach another mage a spell that he needs to cast one time than it does to give/sell him a scroll that would give him a chance at learning the spell.
Does this really make sense to you?

No, my point was that it is better not to ever give a mage a scroll because they might learn the spell anyway.

Right, but you also argued that it's better to just teach people spells instead of give them scrolls.
The two arguments don't make sense together.

Actually, mages have a very slim chance of learning through scrolls, since the words disappear once it is read for the first time. So it would be very costly and time consuming to try to teach or learn through scrolls. Not the prefered method I would imagine.

Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, that same passage is in the original Rifts book.
It's the general rule, Underseas lists the exceptions.

It's necessary for mages to make the gestures, but only for their own peace of mind. Essentially as a placebo.
It's not how you do it, but rather that you do it, and that you believe that you've done it.

I'm certain that it was a rule for all mages, so that any mage who ended up traveling around underwater for a long time could learn to cast spells there as well.

Well, this is what I found....

"Characters who cannot speak aloud can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, but can only cast one spell per melee round and it counts as three melee actions. The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery, the magic energy is present in the spellcaster no matter what the environment may be".

It seems that even though you might not need to speak it aloud, you still need to in some way produce the incantation, even if only in your mind

verdilak wrote:I dont know what that has to do with anything, unless you are insinuating that mages cannot cast spells without looking at a book or page.

Learning is learning. Can you boil water without looking at a cookbook? By your little statement, I would have to assume that you cannot, nor believe that a cook cannot.

Magic is more than saying words and believing that it will work. It is a mental discipline, "an energy that can be controlled and manipulated by the humanoid mind and force of will." If you can't replicate the mental discipline necessary, then you're just flinging energy at nothing... no pattern. You're saying words, but there's nothing behind them.

One way of getting that mental discipline is through language symbols... writing. You can also use visual symbols... art. A very common one throughout the centuries has been numerical symbols... math. And, what do you know, all the the magicians in the RUE, except the Mystic and Elemental Fusionist (who gain theirs through psychic understanding, rather than study) are numerate.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:If you have to study it and memorize the incantations, it's intellectual.

How so?

And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

Right.
They don't do that.

A good joke; it plainly says that many of them do in several Rifts books.
Many do not, but that's hardly ALL, KC...

Mark Hall wrote:

verdilak wrote:I dont know what that has to do with anything, unless you are insinuating that mages cannot cast spells without looking at a book or page.

Learning is learning. Can you boil water without looking at a cookbook? By your little statement, I would have to assume that you cannot, nor believe that a cook cannot.

Magic is more than saying words and believing that it will work. It is a mental discipline, "an energy that can be controlled and manipulated by the humanoid mind and force of will." If you can't replicate the mental discipline necessary, then you're just flinging energy at nothing... no pattern. You're saying words, but there's nothing behind them.

One way of getting that mental discipline is through language symbols... writing. You can also use visual symbols... art. A very common one throughout the centuries has been numerical symbols... math. And, what do you know, all the the magicians in the RUE, except the Mystic and Elemental Fusionist (who gain theirs through psychic understanding, rather than study) are numerate.

lol I can see it now, "2ab=y... damnit all, I can do math, but what functions are a and b!!"

Seriously. Give me a good example of how a magical spell is reduced to mathmatical/scientific process in such a way as to convey meanings for that spell.

Its going to be either intuitive, oral, literacy, or mentoring. Not numerology/"numerate".

verdilak wrote:lol I can see it now, "2ab=y... damnit all, I can do math, but what functions are a and b!!"

Seriously. Give me a good example of how a magical spell is reduced to mathmatical/scientific process in such a way as to convey meanings for that spell.

Its going to be either intuitive, oral, literacy, or mentoring. Not numerology/"numerate".

I don't know. I haven't had 2-5 years of apprenticeship studying this stuff; I have, at best, the modern equivalent of Lore: Magic as a secondary skill from looking at various real-world magical systems over the years, and I've never been fond of numerology. However, a good place to start would be Pythagoras, or in China.

Mark Hall wrote:

verdilak wrote:lol I can see it now, "2ab=y... damnit all, I can do math, but what functions are a and b!!"

Seriously. Give me a good example of how a magical spell is reduced to mathmatical/scientific process in such a way as to convey meanings for that spell.

Its going to be either intuitive, oral, literacy, or mentoring. Not numerology/"numerate".

I don't know. I haven't had 2-5 years of apprenticeship studying this stuff; I have, at best, the modern equivalent of Lore: Magic as a secondary skill from looking at various real-world magical systems over the years, and I've never been fond of numerology. However, a good place to start would be Pythagoras, or in China.

I am saying that magic is not one that would, or could be, converted to numbers.

verdilak wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:At this point your argument is that it makes more sense to teach another mage a spell that he needs to cast one time than it does to give/sell him a scroll that would give him a chance at learning the spell.
Does this really make sense to you?

No, my point was that it is better not to ever give a mage a scroll because they might learn the spell anyway.

Right, but you also argued that it's better to just teach people spells instead of give them scrolls.
The two arguments don't make sense together.

Actually, mages have a very slim chance of learning through scrolls, since the words disappear once it is read for the first time. So it would be very costly and time consuming to try to teach or learn through scrolls. Not the prefered method I would imagine.

Reread the conversation, because you're not following it.

Proseksword wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, that same passage is in the original Rifts book.
It's the general rule, Underseas lists the exceptions.

It's necessary for mages to make the gestures, but only for their own peace of mind. Essentially as a placebo.
It's not how you do it, but rather that you do it, and that you believe that you've done it.

I'm certain that it was a rule for all mages, so that any mage who ended up traveling around underwater for a long time could learn to cast spells there as well.

Well, this is what I found....

"Characters who cannot speak aloud can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, but can only cast one spell per melee round and it counts as three melee actions. The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery, the magic energy is present in the spellcaster no matter what the environment may be".

It seems that even though you might not need to speak it aloud, you still need to in some way produce the incantation, even if only in your mind

And?

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:And for the record, I'm not talking about Lazlo Publishing's 101 Spells to Bedazzle or somesuch, I'm talking about individual mages recording their spells for posterity, future use, or educational purposes.

Right.
They don't do that.

A good joke; it plainly says that many of them do in several Rifts books.
Many do not, but that's hardly ALL, KC...

1. Quote the relevant passages.
2. I wasn't saying that NO mages do, just that the general rule is that they don't. For the same reason they don't make a lot of scrolls.
A lot are illiterate, and almost none want their spells to be found and learned by other people.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And?

and it means that without incantation, even if it is non-verbal, there is no magic. You must learn the incantation, and Literacy can help.