Forums of the Megaverse®

Super Fuel Flame
R:UE says that it can be used to enlarge any fire up to 10 times it's size, and that "damage increases proportionately; GM's discretion".
A thread in the Rifts forum started dealing with this to some extent, there seemed to be people on either side of the argument as to whether or not this power could be used to increase the damage from the burster's other powers, such as the flame eruption or the flame aura, by a factor of ten.
Some might say this is munchkiny, others might say it helps put bursters on a more level playing field with most other things in rifts.

Is there any kind of official ruling on what types of fires Super Fuel Flame works on? Does it work on psionically powered fires? Does it work on magic fires? Why or why not?

The ineffible GM wrote:Is there any kind of official ruling on what types of fires Super Fuel Flame works on?

Just that it works on fires.

Does it work on psionically powered fires? Does it work on magic fires? Why or why not?

Yes.
Because they're still fire.
And the power works on fire, with no restriction on the type of fire.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:Is there any kind of official ruling on what types of fires Super Fuel Flame works on?

Just that it works on fires.

Does it work on psionically powered fires? Does it work on magic fires? Why or why not?

Yes.
Because they're still fire.
And the power works on fire, with no restriction on the type of fire.

Alright, so is the general consensus then that a Burster could, by all rights and rules, activate their Flame Burst Self (1d4 MDC to anyone that touches them) power in one action, and then the next action use Super Fuel Flame to make the fire ten times its regular size and damage, so it will deal 1d6x10 MDC damage to anyone that touches the burster?
A Burster could, by all rights and rules, activate their Fire Eruption (6d6 MDC to fill a large area) power in one action, and then the next action use Super Fuel Flame to make the fire ten times its regular size and damage, so it will deal 6d6x10 MDC damage to anyone that enters the area of the Fire Eruption?
A burster could increase the size and damage of an activated TW Flaming sword to deal x10 damage?
Does Plasma count as fire, as far as the Burster's powers are concerned?

The ineffible GM wrote:Alright, so is the general consensus then that a Burster could, by all rights and rules, activate their Flame Burst Self (1d4 MDC to anyone that touches them) power in one action, and then the next action use Super Fuel Flame to make the fire ten times its regular size and damage, so it will deal 1d6x10 MDC damage to anyone that touches the burster?

Correct, other than your math.

A Burster could, by all rights and rules, activate their Fire Eruption (6d6 MDC to fill a large area) power in one action, and then the next action use Super Fuel Flame to make the fire ten times its regular size and damage, so it will deal 6d6x10 MDC damage to anyone that enters the area of the Fire Eruption?

Yes.

A burster could increase the size and damage of an activated TW Flaming sword to deal x10 damage?

Yes, but that would leave you with a sword about 30' long and over a foot in diameter.
Good luck trying to actually wield it.

Does Plasma count as fire, as far as the Burster's powers are concerned?

No.

gadrin wrote: meaning that the Burster has to concentrate to fuel the fire. While he's concentrating on blasting someone with a huge pillar of fire he can't simultaneously fuel it up, because he can't do two things at once.

He can do two things at once.
When the Burster is concentrating on a Fire Eruption, he loses 1/2 his melee attacks/actions, and fighting is impossible.
But Super-Fueling the flame isn't fighting, so he can spend an action to do it.

If you allow him to do two things at once, he's going to quickly get out of control damage/munchkin wise...in other words x10 the damage of everything.

Nope.
-Bursters who go around using their power all the time swiftly run out of ISP.
-Unless the burster is travelling alone, or with a group of fireproof beings, he has to reign in his powers and be careful of how he uses them, or he'll kill his companions (or cause them to kill him).
-His maximum damage output is comparable to a Glitterboy if you use the Super Fuel Flame on a large enough fire (which you have to be high level to create), but he has nowhere near the MDC a Glitterboy does.
-Lots of stuff is immune to fire.

It's a pretty well-balanced class, all in all.

Even Pyrokinesis has Fuel Flame as a separate power, meaning a Pyrok can't blast someone with a fire ball and fuel it at the same time. I always saw it as: come across a fire, then fuel it.

Or "create a fire, then fuel it".
You can't do it with a fireball, because fireballs don't have a duration.
But any fire with a duration is fair game.

Gravitus Everlast wrote:PLASMA IS NOT FIRE!

Plasma is a mollecular reaction of two elements fusing together or fissuring appart. The quickest and easiest way I've found to make plasma without a plasma riffle or such, is using electrokinesis to rip water mollecules apart and then fuse them back together in succession. THIS IS NOT FIRE!

Isn't plasma an ionized state of matter, similar but distinct from gas, not a chemical/molecular reaction? And fire, the flame itself, is at least partially plasma. For Rifts purposes, plasma is always treated as super-fire - the books flat-out say that creatures immune to fire are immune to plasma. It may not be accurate, but whatever.

Gravitus Everlast wrote:PLASMA IS NOT FIRE!

Plasma is a mollecular reaction of two elements fusing together or fissuring appart. The quickest and easiest way I've found to make plasma without a plasma riffle or such, is using electrokinesis to rip water mollecules apart and then fuse them back together in succession. THIS IS NOT FIRE!

Yes, but in RIFTS world it is read imperious to fire. Makes immune to plasma.

Unfortuneately, science and physics CANNOT be used to accurately determine how reality in Rifts works. Rifts is not bound by physics, it is bound only by 'theme' and 'hey that's cool'-factor. Ion beams, particle beams, these things do not have behaviour consistent with physics. Lasers are the closest to be handled in a realistic fashion, but even then there is a great deal of argument on how accurate they are. So, I at least, cannot see any argument based on science convincing me one way or the other. Science just doesn't apply.

According to the books, it has been pointed out that the "Immune to Fire" ability generally involves also being immune to plasma. The kittani plasma harness does indeed state that bursters are immune to its effects. The only argument I can see for a burster being immune to the damage of plasma but not being able to fuel it would be to say that plasma is not fire, but it is heat based damage. So, the immunity power works because it makes the burster immune to the heat of the plasma but since it is not truly 'fire' the fuel power does not apply. I can't say this makes a whole lot of sense, but it seems like a viable excuse if a GM wants to prevent a burster from fueling plasma.

Does this make sense? Yes? No? Yes but you're not going to use it anyway?

I asked about this to try and clarify whether such rulings about damage multipliers were simply what was intended in the book or if it was a munchkin power grab, or what. We have a Star Elf Burster in the game I am currently in, and compared to the rest of the group (kreeghor bio-borg, antimonster, maxi-man, Apok) the burster is noticeably underpowered if the damage is not x10 with a x10 increase in size. With the increase, the burster might be TOO powerful. It's an interesting question, one where I wanted to bring clarifications from the board to the GM (first time GM) to help him decide what would be best.

I think that I'll be suggesting that he change the power slightly so that it becomes a reflection of the Burster's experience level. I'm going to suggest that the damage of the fire be multiplied by the same multiplier as the size of the flame (i.e. x10 size flame deals x10 damage) however, instead of making it a flat x10 instead allow the burster to increase the flame by a multiplier equal to their level +1. So, a first level burster can make fires x2 in size and damage. A third level burster could do x4, a fifth level burster x6, and should a burster ever manage to reach level 10 the size and damage would be x11. Our burstere is currently level 2, so that would be x3.

We have no equipment, campaign started with us being bought as slaves to fight in the arena in Atlantis.

The GM's ruling came down: Super Fuel Flame can be used on any fire that can be considered to possess a Radius. Therefore, it may NOT be used on Flame Burst self as the fire is seen to be clinging to the Burster rather than having any form of emitting radius. It may be used on Fire Eruption. It may not be used on TW Flame swords.

That's how it's going down in this game. For any who care.

The ineffible GM wrote:The GM's ruling came down: Super Fuel Flame can be used on any fire that can be considered to possess a Radius. Therefore, it may NOT be used on Flame Burst self as the fire is seen to be clinging to the Burster rather than having any form of emitting radius. It may be used on Fire Eruption. It may not be used on TW Flame swords.

That's how it's going down in this game. For any who care.

I don't care if a GM makes a bad decision unless he tries to claim it's canon.

The GM did look at and consider the graduating fire growth that I had suggested, but I believe that he was worried about the power overly powerful if he didn't place strict limits on its use. He's a new GM who was faced with an important call to make on the game within the first two sessions. Personally, I think that there are a lot of ways the call could have gone, and his decision certainly wasn't the worst he could have made.

My question is WHY try to restrict the bursters and nerf down their powers into near uselessness?
What's the gain?

Rogue Scientist wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:My question is WHY try to restrict the bursters and nerf down their powers into near uselessness?
What's the gain?

I'm with KC on this.

Bursters, as a class, give up a lot of education and psionic versatility to put out lots of one kind of damage. Coming down too hard on their damage is really limiting, imo. They should have their moments to shine.

I'd divide the two issues. I'd say a burster could increase the damage of a more mobile, but non-instant fire effect like a plasma harness or TW fire sword by 2x, with a little concentration, and reserve the 10x thing for large, stationary, AoE fires.

To answer both of you: He can do it because he does not believe that it nerfs the Burster's powers into near uselessness.

The ability to Super Fuel Flame is only one of the burster's powers. Even if the power were taken out completely, a burster is still capable of surrounding themselves in MDC flame, generate an MDC forcefield, throwing fireballs, and creating raging infernos that deal 6d6 MD damage.

Vagabonds cannot do these things.
Headhunters must don their armor (which a burster can still wear under the fire burst) and recharge e-clips. And Bursters can still use guns too.
Juicers must wear armor to avoid death from a single MD shot.
Or how about some other psychic classes?
Psi-stalkers only get MDC while in the presence of supernatural foes, so a tech opponent can take them out splat. Psi-stalkers also cannot create MDC attacks through psionics.
Mind Melters? Their forcefields cost more than three times the ISP of the burster's field and the mind melter's field doesn't regenerate like a burster's. Mind melters can use telekinetic acceleration attack, sure, but that does roughly twice the damage of a burster's fireball for x5 the cost.

Would you consider these classes all useless?

Does it nerf the Burster? It makes the burster weaker than many people on these boards would have them, but it also makes bursters stronger than what some of the people on these boards have interpreted the power to mean. Personally, I think it was a good call. Not the best call, but a good one. The burster is still far from useless, and though one of the weaker members of our particularly powerful group she is still on a decent power level for Rifts, especially since I do not foresee the GM very often pulling out foes that are immune to fire.

The ineffible GM wrote:To answer both of you: He can do it because he does not believe that it nerfs the Burster's powers into near uselessness.

The ability to Super Fuel Flame is only one of the burster's powers. Even if the power were taken out completely, a burster is still capable of surrounding themselves in MDC flame,

For 1d4 MD, if they pay enough ISP.

generate an MDC forcefield,

25 MDC, which isn't that bad, but isn't that good either.
(And it's only good in situations where stealth isn't a priority, and where you're not going to be starting forest fires or anything)

throwing fireballs,

No, throwing firebolts, that do 2d6 MD.
You can do more damage with a decent pistol these days.
It's a nice back-up power, but that's about it.

and creating raging infernos that deal 6d6 MD damage.

And cuts your melee attacks in half.
Say you only have 4 attacks per melee, that means that you're losing 2 attacks to do 6d6 MD, which means you're once again better off with a decent energy weapon.
Get a NG-57 and you can do 6d6 in 2 attacks.
Get a NG-P7, and you can do 2d4x10 in 2 attacks.

Sure, the fire has an area affect, and it can be a nice power, but it's not all that.

Sure, they're still not useless, but it means that far more often than not, they're going to be better of not bothering with their fire powers.

Vagabonds cannot do these things.

No, but they can use guns and armor, which is the same thing your burster is going to be doing 9 times out of 10.

Headhunters must don their armor (which a burster can still wear under the fire burst)

Bursters still have to take the time to put up their Fiery Field or whatever.
So either one, unprepared, can be taken out with a single shot.

and recharge e-clips.

Yup.
And if they run out of shots, they can reload instantly.
If a Burster runs out of ISP, he's got to wait a LONG time.
First level Burster gets about 100 ISP on average, that means 25 shots at 2d6 MD each, then he's kaput.
Average damage output of 175 MDC total.

And Bursters can still use guns too.

Yup.
And he's better off using guns.
Which is the problem.

Juicers must wear armor to avoid death from a single MD shot.

Actually, even a standard juicer can take a point or two of MD and be okay (maybe even 4 MD).

And, in any case, everybody must wear armor to avoid death from a single good MD blast, unless they're MDC creatures, which bursters aren't.

Or how about some other psychic classes?
Psi-stalkers only get MDC while in the presence of supernatural foes, so a tech opponent can take them out splat. Psi-stalkers also cannot create MDC attacks through psionics.

That's where armor and weapons come in.
Seriously, does your GM regularly send mega-damage attackers at the PCs while they're unarmed and unarmored?

Mind Melters? Their forcefields cost more than three times the ISP of the burster's field and the mind melter's field doesn't regenerate like a burster's.

The TK forcefield gets 25 MDC per level.
That quickly becomes superior to the Burster's trick.

As for cost, Mind Melters get more ISP, so they have more to spend.

Mind melters can use telekinetic acceleration attack, sure, but that does roughly twice the damage of a burster's fireball for x5 the cost.

Hey, Mind Melters can do actual Fireballs for 6d6 damage.
3x the damage of a Flame Bolt (although it's still 5-6x the cost)

Would you consider these classes all useless?

Not at all.
The Man-At-Arms classes all get better armor, weapons, and skills than Bursters. They're extremely useful.
Psi-stalkers have to use weapons and armor like anybody else, but they can track the supernatural, they get good combat bonuses, and they're great at killing spell-casting baddies.
Mind Melters are versatile and powerful enough to help out the party in any number of situations, not just when something needs to be burnt (although they can do that too).

Does it nerf the Burster? It makes the burster weaker than many people on these boards would have them, but it also makes bursters stronger than what some of the people on these boards have interpreted the power to mean. Personally, I think it was a good call. Not the best call, but a good one. The burster is still far from useless, and though one of the weaker members of our particularly powerful group she is still on a decent power level for Rifts, especially since I do not foresee the GM very often pulling out foes that are immune to fire.

That's the thing.
He's dropped from being a heavy-hitter, somebody in the league of Headhunters or light power armor, into the power range of a Wilderness Scout or other light combat character.
Useless?
Well, not entirely.
But if all you're good for is burning stuff, you ought to be VERY good at it.
Good enough at it that when you do it, it's more impressive and damaging than if you pulled out a laser rifle.

My problem with the "super fuel flame to make a 6D6*10 flame" is that there really would be practical limits on how hot you can get a flame and still have it be flame. At a certain point, they've stopped burning oxygen, and are fusing hydrogen.

Mark Hall wrote:My problem with the "super fuel flame to make a 6D6*10 flame" is that there really would be practical limits on how hot you can get a flame and still have it be flame. At a certain point, they've stopped burning oxygen, and are fusing hydrogen.

Interesting.
Care to elaborate?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:My problem with the "super fuel flame to make a 6D6*10 flame" is that there really would be practical limits on how hot you can get a flame and still have it be flame. At a certain point, they've stopped burning oxygen, and are fusing hydrogen.

Interesting.
Care to elaborate?

Fire

For example, an oxyhydrogen flame is 2000*C... easily enough to cook someone in their armor (which only compensates up to 400*C... less than a candle flame, so ANY real flame is going to cause damage inside armor). Really, if you're burning a fire using Earth's atmosphere as your gas source, it's going to have a limit of around that... not quite fusing hydrogen, but you're not going to be able to crank the temperature indefinitely.

Mark Hall wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:My problem with the "super fuel flame to make a 6D6*10 flame" is that there really would be practical limits on how hot you can get a flame and still have it be flame. At a certain point, they've stopped burning oxygen, and are fusing hydrogen.

Interesting.
Care to elaborate?

Fire

For example, an oxyhydrogen flame is 2000*C... easily enough to cook someone in their armor (which only compensates up to 400*C... less than a candle flame, so ANY real flame is going to cause damage inside armor). Really, if you're burning a fire using Earth's atmosphere as your gas source, it's going to have a limit of around that... not quite fusing hydrogen, but you're not going to be able to crank the temperature indefinitely.

Hm.
Well, in order to make a fire, you need oxygen, fuel, and heat.
Bursters are specifically stated to not need fuel in order to create their fires, so that's one down.
As for heat, the Bursters don't seem to need it either, since they can create fires in any temperature surrounding. They might do this by creating head, of course, but they don't need any there to start.
So that's two down.
So it seems to me that a Bursters' fire might not need oxygen either; they might create everything needed for the fire to burn all on their own.

Does anybody know if Underseas or Mutants in Orbit address the issue?


In any case, if you're worried about the ramifications of 6d6x10 MD from fire damage, I'm curious about your take on a character with the APS: Fire superpower, who can do 10,000 MD if they go nova.

nameneeded wrote:Myself I think 6d6x10 is a bit much for any class. And for the paultry cost of 2 attacks? Now thats overkill.

Whip out your calculator and see how much damage a Glitterboy can dish out in 2 attacks.

Toss in a carpet of adhesion and your done.

Plus its to all trapped in area or targets that go through it. So a 6th lvl Burster can dust pretty much all targets in a 50' area... no wait... it gets x10'd as well so 500' area. Yea, theres some game balance in action.

Yes.
Because in order to do that much damage, he has to hit that large of an area.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this isn't going to be feasible a lot of the time, not without also killing innocent bystanders and/or PCs.
Or starting forest fires, or brush fires, etc. etc.

"Hi Mr town guard. Let us go or shall we see if you can survive an average of 210MD per round."

Why is the party attacking the town guard?
Are they evil?

If so, then I think that's the problem, not the power level.
If not, then why the hell are the PCs burning people to a crisp for doing their job?

Is it possible the intent was that each application of SFF was an attack action? So first use SFF makes fire x2, second use of SFF makes fire x3, 3rd use fire becomes x4 etc etc. That makes more sense to me.

No.
The power works just the way it appears, which is why there's that "GMs use caution" note.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Does anybody know if Underseas or Mutants in Orbit address the issue?

Page 63 of Underseas. "Some surface magic may be limited by or useless in an underwater environment, such as most fire spells ... These spells are not suitable for use underwater." Nothing specific regarding Bursters. I don't have MiO.

In any case, if you're worried about the ramifications of 6d6x10 MD from fire damage, I'm curious about your take on a character with the APS: Fire superpower, who can do 10,000 MD if they go nova.

I tend to put Superpowers in a slightly different category from magic and psionics... they're supposed to be over-the-top. I'll note, however, that using Nova has a 45% chance of killing the character and a 30% chance of losing at least the APS: Fire ability, if not all of them... it's not a usual behavior of their powers, but something to do in extremis. Usual use maximum is 3D6 + 1D6 per level fire ball; 4th level is about on-par with the static abilities of a buster (aside from the MD, which is a setting thing).

I will also point out that point 8 of APS: Fire says "The fire form cannot be maintained without sufficient amounts of oxygen. Furthermore, the fire form will use up oxygen rapidly, so the fiery form is a liability in an airtight compartment." Vacuum is noted to snuff out the flames in one melee, and cold or water will force them down, as well.

And the GB note is something of a false lead... that's not an area affect attack, but a single target.

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

nameneeded wrote:Myself I think 6d6x10 is a bit much for any class. And for the paultry cost of 2 attacks? Now thats overkill.

Whip out your calculator and see how much damage a Glitterboy can dish out in 2 attacks.

Uh yea... average over 2 attacks 210MD. To 1 target assuming both attacks hit.

Assumimg 7 attacks:

Average 105MD each attack. So Assuming he hits every time 735MD. If we average that out then you hit 4 targets for a total of 420MD.

Absolute max damage 180MD each target total 1260MD. Not bad!
And has to consider friendlies in area. (Deafness -8inish, -3 p/d)

Burster

Average 210MD to ALL targets so lets say group of 6 and 4 are in area of effect. 840MD and he still has 5 attacks left. So he uses his gun or targets the other 2.

He can't miss. (a miss throws off his aim by 2d6 yards. small consolation) No saves. Fires there for 10 min unless he wants to concentrate to keep it there for 1 ISP and concentrate. (to me that would be silly in most situations) But has to tell friendlies to hang back. If they are using guns and powers no loss to them.

Max damage to same 4 targets 1440MD. With 5 attacks left. If you apply damage to all limbs the GB is done on a decent roll. His hands are gone on the first roll unless its really bad. Like 3 1s and 3 2s. Hell as long as he rolls 2 3's hands are gone and GB is done.

I chose groups of 6 cause thats the average party size I have seen. But what if there was a squad of 10! Max on them if he got them all would be 3600MD!

So uhm... yea..... a x10 Burster seems more powerful than a GB to me.

Also there are very few OCC's that can do more damage than the weapons can dish out in Rifts. So saying "He's better off using guns" isn't very fair. Even the "most" powerful of OCC's rely on them.

1. Fire disappears when the burster stops concentrating on it.
2. You don't apply the damage to each limb, just to the main body
3. Put a burster up against a GB, the GB will win. Burster's dead in one or two shots.

TheDarkSaint wrote:Maybe it's a hold over from seeing "Firestarter" as a TV movie when I was a kid, but I restrict my bursters to the multiplication of damage/range/area to isp cost because I think it would be exhausting to try and do something like that.

I fully think a Burster should be able to lay down an inferno that could take out robot vehicals, but I would think it would tucker him out a wee bit.

Actually, the more she used her powers, the more powerful she got (at least, that's how it was in the book, I don't remember the film that well).

Killer Cyborg wrote:

TheDarkSaint wrote:Maybe it's a hold over from seeing "Firestarter" as a TV movie when I was a kid, but I restrict my bursters to the multiplication of damage/range/area to isp cost because I think it would be exhausting to try and do something like that.

I fully think a Burster should be able to lay down an inferno that could take out robot vehicals, but I would think it would tucker him out a wee bit.

Actually, the more she used her powers, the more powerful she got (at least, that's how it was in the book, I don't remember the film that well).

You guys are talking about a couple different things. She would get tired... not to convert, but her ISP would go down. As she used her powers, they got greater... her level went up.

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Fire disappears when the burster stops concentrating on it.
2. You don't apply the damage to each limb, just to the main body
3. Put a burster up against a GB, the GB will win. Burster's dead in one or two shots.

Fire lasts for 10min as per ability. Burster has to conentrate and spen 1 ISP to keep it going after that. The first 10 are free.

They're free in the sense that it doesn't cost ISP, but you still have to concentrate.
Which is why the book says that the fire will go out if you cease concentrating.

If you apply damage only to MB then yea GB will win np. But taking into consideration area of effect all GB's limbs are in the fire and should take damage.

Not according to the rules.

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Fire disappears when the burster stops concentrating on it.
2. You don't apply the damage to each limb, just to the main body
3. Put a burster up against a GB, the GB will win. Burster's dead in one or two shots.

Fire lasts for 10min as per ability. Burster has to conentrate and spend 1 ISP to keep it going after that. The first 10 are free.

They're free in the sense that it doesn't cost ISP, but you still have to concentrate.
Which is why the book says that the fire will go out if you cease concentrating.

If you apply damage only to MB then yea GB will win np. But taking into consideration area of effect all GB's limbs are in the fire and should take damage.

Not according to the rules.

As per RUE:
Dur; the flame eruption will stay ignited for 10 mins or untill the burster cancels the effect, which can be done at will. The psychic can KEEP the fire burning by expending an additional 1 ISP every 10min, but must stay within range and concentrate on maintaining the fire.

Thats when the penalties kick in. It goes on to say the effect ends as soon as the burster "breaks his concentration."

Bolded the important part.

(Can u activate other PSi abilities when concentrating to maintain one?)

Yes.

nameneeded wrote:Yes it says that AFTER it describes how the Burster CAN extend the duration and what the conditions are to extend it which include the need to concentrate to MAINTAIN the effect.

No mention of concentration required prior to the part where it goes into extending the duration.

It doesn't need to be mentioned prior; it's still mentioned.

All the first part is talking about is the overall duration of the power, but that duration is dependant upon the Burster concentrating on keeping the fires going.
Both passages are true, and you don't get to chuck one passage out just because you don't like it.
Or rather, you can, but it'll be a house rule.

But I'm not getting into this with you for 2 reasons.
1) I don't want to highjack this thread.
2) Thus far I have never seen you change your mind/ back down on a subject.

We will have to agree to dissagree. Just like how I feel that x10 damage is overkill. As did at least some of the writters considering the x10 damage modifier is "GM's discretion" and not firmly stated as most if not all other damage listings.

Have you PLAYED it with the x10 damage, using the official rules?
If so, and you didn't like the results, that's one thing.
But if you're just squeamish at the thought, that's another.

Malignor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Have you PLAYED it with the x10 damage, using the official rules?
If so, and you didn't like the results, that's one thing.
But if you're just squeamish at the thought, that's another.

Actually, I'm in the same group as Nameneeded. The GM used a burster as part of an enemy group who ambushed us in a room.

Action 1 (surprise action): Fire eruption.
Action 2 (high initiative): Super fuel flame - fills the room with enough damage to waste half the party. No save, no dodge... even juicers.

Now this didn't actually happen, since the GM went easy on us. But when the OCC itself allows for such overpowering results there's something amiss.

It's not something amiss with the OCC; it's something amiss with the GM.
He shouldn't have put the party up against something that powerful, especially in a situation where the PCs are getting ambushed.

Malignor wrote:I thought you said the class wasn't overpowered. (?!?!?)

We could've been ambushed by a Dragon, Borg, Glitterboy or a Mind Melter and it would have been easier.

Doesn't that say something?

Dragon's aren't that big in the firepower department; their schtick is that they're hard to kill. Same with Borgs.
Glitterboys don't do as much damage, but their weapons damage more stuff, and their range is a heck of a lot better. A GB ambusing you could have been shooting from a couple of miles away. And they're a lot harder to kill than a Burster.

For Mind Melters, it depends on what their power are. A good Mind Melter could have killed you even worse.

nameneeded wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
For Mind Melters, it depends on what their power are. A good Mind Melter could have killed you even worse.

Care to explain how a MM could doe worse to a party as an opening attack of 6d6x10MD wwith NO saves? Hell even with saves.

Off the top of my head?
Fill a suit of power armor with fusion blocks (or even just grenades).
Telemechanically Possess the suit.
Fly into the middle of the party and detonate.

Also, I'll point out that the Burster's opening attack wasn't 6d6x10 MD.
His opening attack was only 6d6 MD.
It was his second attack that did 6d6x10 MD.

You (addressing whoever played that actual incident) didn't get any saves, but that doesn't mean that you were helpless.
If you'd spotted his ambush, and concentrated your firepower on him, then you could have snuffed the guy before he got that second attack in.
If you have a mage, he could have cast Impervious to Fire and saved himself. If you knew you were going to be fighting a Burster, he could have cast it on every member of the party in advance.
If you had a dragon, he'd have only taken 1/2 damage and might have lived.
If you had a nega-psychic, you might have stopped the attack from even happening.
If you had a Burster, or a Mind Melter with pyrokinesis, or a mage with the second level spell "Extinguish Fire".
If you had a gun in power armor (or a vehicle, or carrying a missile launcher) with a Fire Retardent missile, he could have put out the fire before it got Super Fueled.
And there's probably some other stuff you could have done.
It all depends on who's in your party and what they have.